PA and MCAT exam

[Kajukenbo]

PA's are given a lot of heavy responsibilities. A surgical PA in CT surgery, one can run codes, do vein harvesting and other procedures.

This makes me wonder why PA prerequisite courses are easier than what pre-meds/pre-vets/pre-dental/pre-pharm go through. 1) We had to take the MCAT exam. 2) we did not get away from a year of physics and a year of orgo. 3) we were required to take labs for all of our chem, physics, and bio courses. 4) in doing a comparison I found that some schools allow pre-PA's to take science courses for the non-science major.

Since PA's are being trained by the medical model and have a great deal of responsibility, shouldn't they be subjected to all of these requirements. I find it strange because all of these other health care programs follow the pre-med req's. They (pre-dent, pre-vet, etc) have their own entrance exams, but they took the same courses that we took for med school.

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[skoutt]

I admit that I do not know much about the PA application process. However, the prereqs you listed are very similar (if not identical) to those required for most US MD programs.

 

[maxflash04]

PA's are given a lot of heavy responsibilities. A surgical PA in CT surgery, one can run codes, do vein harvesting and other procedures.

This makes me wonder why PA prerequisite courses are easier than what pre-meds/pre-vets/pre-dental/pre-pharm go through. 1) We had to take the MCAT exam. 2) we did not get away from a year of physics and a year of orgo. 3) we were required to take labs for all of our chem, physics, and bio courses. 4) in doing a comparison I found that some schools allow pre-PA's to take science courses for the non-science major.

Since PA's are being trained by the medical model and have a great deal of responsibility, shouldn't they be subjected to all of these requirements. I find it strange because all of these other health care programs follow the pre-med req's. They (pre-dent, pre-vet, etc) have their own entrance exams, but they took the same courses that we took for med school.

"Physician assistants are trained in the medical model. In some schools they attend many of the same classes as medical students. One of the main differences between P.A. education and physician education is not the core content of the curriculum but the amount of time spent in school. The length of a P.A. program is about two thirds that of medical school. Physicians also are required to do an internship, and the majority also complete a residency in a specialty; P.A.'s do not have to undertake an internship or residency. A doctor has complete responsibility for the care of the patient; P.A.'s share that responsibility with the doctors. Doctors are independent practitioners; P.A.'s practice medicine under the supervision of a physician."

-- http://www.colby.edu/health.serv/pa.html

 

[laurenem]

I actually found when I researched PA programs that they required more pre-reqs than med schools. They required the typical premed requirements plus genetics, microbio, abnormal psych etc. I would have had to go back and take additional classes if I had applied PA.. Each program requried different classes though, they should probably standardize it like med schools have.

 

[njbmd]

Moving to the Clinicians Forum.

 

[deleted6669]

I actually found when I researched PA programs that they required more pre-reqs than med schools. They required the typical premed requirements plus genetics, microbio, abnormal psych etc. I would have had to go back and take additional classes if I had applied PA.. Each program requried different classes though, they should probably standardize it like med schools have.

I don't think medschools are all that standardized either.looking at going back a few yrs ago some schools want calc, biochem, genetics,etc while others just want bio/chem/physics.pretty much any pa school wants a yr of bio and chem with labs + microbio, human anatomy, some psych, some math,and some medical experience.

 

[Kajukenbo]

A lot of you don't understand what I am saying. Again, in researching the programs, the PA entrance REQUIREMENTS do NOT have to be for science majors UNLIKE THE PRE-MED STUDENTS. I have not found one PA program that requires a full year of physics with lab, a year of general chem and lab, year of Ochem with lab, and one year of biology with lab. I know for a fact that predental, pre-vet, pre-pharm have AT LEAST these courses listed as the standard reqs. I know as I had dropped out of Veternarian school to go to med school.


At my former university PRE-PA's were allowed to take INTRO science classes as prereqs that could be used for non-science majors. When we vet/med students were pre-meds, we weren't allowed to use any intro science classes as our prereqs. Not One.

Again study the reqs for all these programs, you will see that pre-med, pre-vet, pre-pharm and pre-dent all must have ONE YEAR of bio with labs, ONE YEAR of general chem with labs, ONE YEAR of physics with labs, and ONE YEAR of ochem with labs. And no such a thing as taking a semester of gchem and a semester of Ochem. I mean you will find those programs to have at least those courses at the science major level.

 

[deleted6669]

the vast majority of pa programs require bio-major level courses. a FEW will allow survey courses but not many.
I took a premed courseload at the university of california including chem, bio, physics plus anatomy with dissection, pathobio, biostats, chem of nutrition, biotechnology, psych, etc to get into pa school. I have 9 years of post high school undergraduate and graduate level coursework to include 2 bs degrees, an ms degree, an em fellowship, and a postmasters credential in adv. clinical practice in family and emergency medicine. I teach medstudents and residents. I run codes. I staff an emergency dept by myself. I make more than many primary care physicians and guess what? I didn't need the mcat to accomplish any of this.
pa school isn't med school. the prereqs are similar but slightly different.see below:
Duke pa program science requirements:
Prerequisite College Courses
Applicants from all academic disciplines are welcome to apply, provided they meet the preparatory course prerequisites.
At least five biological science courses of three semester credits or four quarter credits each are REQUIRED. Of these five courses, at least one must be in anatomy, one in physiology, and one in microbiology. Courses in human anatomy and human physiology are preferred to courses of a more general nature, and courses with labs are preferred. To fulfill the remaining biological science course prerequisite, the PA Program recommends courses in genetics, cell biology, molecular biology, embryology, histology, or immunology. While none of the latter courses are specifically required, they provide a good foundation for the study of medicine.
At least two chemistry courses with labs are REQUIRED. Each of these courses must be at least four semester credits or five quarter credits each.
At least one statistics course of at least two semester credits or three quarter credits is REQUIRED.

OHSU pa program science prereqs:
Minimum of 40 quarter-hour or 30 semester-hour credits of natural science coursework appropriate to health science majors. Includes natural science prerequisites listed below.
General or cell biology with lab (full sequence).
General or inorganic chemistry with lab (full sequence).
Microbiology with lab.
Human anatomy and physiology with lab sequence completed within 7 years of planned PA program matriculation (minimum of 1 semester each of anatomy and physiology or 2 semesters/3 quarters of a combined A & P course).
General or developmental psychology.
Statistics (offered through math, stats, bio, psych, or soc departments; business statistics not accepted).
Recommended: upper division natural science course work such as 300- and 400-level courses in organic chemistry, biochemistry, genetics, pathophysiology, pharmacology, anatomy, and physiology.

pacific university pa program science prereqs:
BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES - 11 semester hours
1 full year of Human Anatomy and Human Physiology (labs required)
Note: Sequential courses combining human anatomy and physiological are acceptable.
1 Microbiology or Bacteriology course
CHEMISTRY - 11 semester hours
1 Organic or Biochemistry course
2 additional general chemistry or other chemistry courses (labs required)
STATISTICS - 3 semester hours
1 course from one of the following departments: Psychology, Sociology, Statistics, or Mathematics.
GENERAL PSYCHOLOGY OR SOCIOLOGY - 3 semester hours
1 Psychology or Sociology course
RECOMMENDED ADDITIONAL COURSEWORK
Pharmacology, Medical Terminology, Spanish, Abnormal Psychology, Development Psychology, Aging and Disabilities, Public Health, Technical Writing, Communications.

 

[Kajukenbo]

"At least two chemistry courses with labs are REQUIRED. Each of these courses must be at least four semester credits or five quarter credits each."

I am familiar with Duke's program. I have researched the programs. But, again they are exempt from physics with lab and you have choices for chem. For medicine you need a year of ochem with labs.

You did extra coursework, but not all PA's did. It wasn't required. You may have taken physics etc, the fact is it wasn't required.

These are usually weed out courses along with the MCAT.

You may run codes which I think is scary. But you are not exempt from supervision. Also, NP's can run codes too.

While you start working after two years, a med student is starting clinicals and has one hell of a journey to go through. I am not going anywhere because you still need my supervision.

 

[deleted6669]

"At least two chemistry courses with labs are REQUIRED. Each of these courses must be at least four semester credits or five quarter credits each."

I am familiar with Duke's program. I have researched the programs. But, again they are exempt from physics with lab and you have choices for chem. You do need a year of ochem with labs.

These are usually weed out courses along with the MCAT.

You did extra coursework, but not all PA's did.

once again pa school is not medschool. prereqs vary- so what?
I don't need to take thermodynamics to know how to intubate. the pa model is based on prior medical experience as a major component so we don't start from page 1. we build on what we know. this is how physicians used to be trained(via apprenticeship models). I have a great,great grandfather who was an apprentice trained physician( followed his father, another apprentice trained physician, around for 10 years) who never went to medschool but spent his later days teaching at harvard medschool. he has diseases named after him and yet never spent 1 day in medschool.....clinical learning trumps didactic learning in actual practice. you will learn this as a resident.

 

[Kajukenbo]

I am in residency now. The didactic learning is VERY important for the wards. I didn't say it was more important, but the didactic foundation is needed. Well, this is where docs and PA's differ: we get the complicated cases and therefore we need more of the scientific background for them.

As far as teaching many disciplines teach residents. We had a psychologist teaching in the psych residency program for several years.

 

[deleted6669]

I am in residency now. The didatic learning is VERY important for the wards. I didn't say it was more important, but the foundation is needed. Well, this is where docs and PA's differ: we need the background for the complicated cases. Although a case can appear "easy," it can turn to a crisis in a short time.

and that's where knowing how to fill the orbital shells of a complex chemical reaction really comes in handy, when a pt is crashing right in front of you......right......the extra didactics in medschool are to make a medical scholar who is prepared to do reasearch and devise new treatments and diagnostic studies. much of what you learn in medschool has very little clinical application unfortunately. everyone takes something different from medschool. my father, a well known neurologist, used to say" you only need 1/2 of what they teach you in medschool to practice medicine. unfortunately which half is different for everyone depending on what specialty they go into....."
in case nobody mentioned it to you pa's also see "complicated cases". there are pa's working in every specialty in medicine seeing pts refered to " a specialist" by primary care physicians who don't know what to do with them. if the specialty pa can't figure it out then they pass the pt up the chain of command to the specialty docs they work with. probably 75% of any "specialty" is fairly routine if that is all you do.....pa's run i.d. clinics, headache clinics, minor surgical clinics, rheumatology and gi clinics, ortho clinics,etc
guess who their referal base is? yup, physicians who happen to know less than they do about a particular area of specialty.....many services use pa's as the first responders for emergency dept call. if I call for an ortho consult a pa sees the pt first. if they can't resolve the issue they pass it on to an ortho md. if I call for a vascular surgical consult a surgical pa sees the pt first and only calls the doc if they can't resolve the issue, etc.....this is more common than you think....all the treadmills done in my facility? yup, done by pa's. a significant portion of the inpt medicine pts are covered by pa's who work for the hospitalist service. everyone has limits to their knowledge regardless of the title after their name and everyone consults on things they don't know about. it is the way of the world.
does an md have a better basis for learning a specialty? sure. but that doesn't mean you can't train someone with less primary didactic coursework to the same standard of practice given enough time and oversight. that's what a residency is after all-taking a fresh mind and filling it with subject knowledge and skills.
fyi- check out these available pa residencies:
www.appap.org
from the ohsu critical care pa fellowship program:
PA fellows will have the opportunity to manage the care of complex surgical populations, including heart transplants, ventricular assist devices (VAD) intra-aortic balloon pumps (IABP) and kidney transplants, as well as learn and perform procedures such as: central lines, arterial lines, intubations, airway management, bronchoscopy, and thoracostomy.

you don't need biochem for a surgeon to train you how to do a thoracostomy......I never took biochem and I learned just fine......

 

[Kajukenbo]

We do take over the more difficult cases. This is one of the reasons why we go through such grueling residencies and have less time than anything else.

Of course we refer to other specialties. Everyone is limited in this way. I am not training to be an allergist, but if a patient of mine needs one, I will make the referal to an allergist. Of course everyone has limitations. But lets not live in denial: a physician will always have more of a stronger scientific/medical and clinical background. Don't tell me that a PA can do Mohs surgery without completing a dermatology residency and Mohs fellowship.

Also, one person in my former med school class dropped out of PA school because he wanted more of a stronger science background. After getting his MD, he stated that science goes more in depth in medicine. A former PA in my residency program stated that she felt there was so much more she could do by attending med school.

Well, people wanting a bachelor's degree in pharmacy are not exempt from the aforementioned courses. The programs aren't set up to make students scholars. Still no exemption for ochem and physics.

You know it is dangerous when PA's like yourself don't recognize their limitations.

 

[deleted6669]

We do take over the more difficult cases. This is one of the reasons why we go through such grueling residencies and have less time than anything else.

Of course we refer to other specialties. Everyone is limited in this way. I am not training to be an allergist, but if a patient of mine needs one, I will make the referal to an allergist. Of course everyone has limitations. But lets not live in denial: a physician will always have more of a stronger scientific/medical and clinical background. Don't tell me that a PA can do Mohs surgery without completing a dermatology residency and Mohs fellowship.

Also, one person in my former med school class dropped out of PA school because he wanted more of a stronger science background. After getting his MD, he stated that science goes more in depth in medicine. A former PA in my residency program stated that she felt there was so much more she could do by attending med school.

Well, people wanting a bachelor's degree in pharmacy are not exempt from the aforementioned courses. The programs aren't set up to make students scholars. Still no exemption for ochem and physics.

You know it is dangerous when PA's like yourself don't recognize their limitations.

It's dangerous when ANYONE doesn't recognize their limitations. I work a few times/month at a small(28k) emergency dept as the only provider. I transfer anyone I can't realsitically diagnose or treat given the limitations of my dept( no ct scanner) or my knowledge base. I stabilize and transfer MI's, trauma, cva's, etc
In any given field the experts at the top of the food chain will be physicians, I am not in denial about that. the meat and potatoes of any specialty as well as common and not so common complications can be mastered by a pa, however. I frequently treat pts sent to the e.d. because they were outside the training and ability of community physicians and that's fine. they are experts in primary care and I am knowledgeable regarding emergency medicine, more so than most physicians who are not emergency physicians. when I get stumped I consult a specialist. they often will send a SPECIALTY PA to do the consult however.....when they get stumped(rarely) they call in physician backup.....
....by the way there are pa's doing mohs.....and diagnostic cardiac caths.......
took me 30 seconds to find this derm pa job announcement:
Dermatology Physician Assistant Chicago suburban dermatology practice has immediate availability for full time physician assistant.Tinley Park, Illinois Dermatology Associates, Ltd General dermatology, Mohs surgery and laser/cosmetic services. The PA will develop own practice after extensive on-site training. Great opportunity for new or recent grad.

pa's doing cardiac caths:
ORLANDO, Fla. -- A study by Duke University Medical Center researchers has shown that
physician assistants, with proper training can successfully perform cardiac catheterizations.

"Under the careful supervision of experienced attending cardiologists, trained physician
assistants can perform diagnostic cardiac catheterization, including coronary angiography, with
procedural times and complication rates similar to those of cardiology fellows. This is the first
large study that demonstrates that this is a safe practice," said Dr. Richard Krasuski, a Duke
cardiology fellow who led the study which was presented Wednesday at the 50th Annual
Scientific Session of the American College of Cardiology.

Physician assistants (PAs), who originated at Duke in the 1960s, work with physicians to provide
diagnostic and therapeutic patient care in virtually all medical specialties and settings. Cardiac
catheterization involves threading a thin catheter through a patient's arteries until it reaches the
heart. X-ray dye is then injected to determine if the arteries are blocked.

"With cardiac catheterizations increasing more than 300 percent during the last 10 years,
physician assistants have begun performing more of these procedures under the supervision of
cardiologists. However, there was insufficient evidence before this to support whether this was a
safe practice," Krasuski said.

The Duke study compared 929 diagnostic cardiac catheterizations performed by PAs with
supervision by a cardiologist to 4,521 catheterizations performed by cardiology fellows.
Cardiology fellows are physicians receiving three to four years of advanced training in cardiology
after completing an internal medicine residency. The procedures were performed at Duke
between July 1998, when PAs were first given approval by the institution to perform the
procedure, and April
2000. The patients in the two groups were of similar demographics.

The study showed that the incidence of major complications, such as myocardial infarction (heart
attack), stroke, arrhythmia requiring defibrillation or pacemaker placement, pulmonary edema
requiring mechanical ventilation and vascular complications requiring surgical intervention, were
nearly identical in both groups. For PAs, the complication rate was
0.54 percent as compared to a
0.58 percent complication rate for cardiology fellows.

Additionally, the cases performed by the PAs were done more quickly (
70.2 minutes versus
72.6 minutes by the cardiology fellows), and used less fluoroscopic time (
10.2 minutes as compared to
12.2 minutes). Krasuski noted that the time and fluoroscopic differences were most likely due to
the fact that the patients treated by the fellows were slightly sicker.

"We are not saying that PAs should replace doctors in performing cardiac catheterizations or
should be stand-alone operators. What this study shows is that this is a skill that can be learned
and successfully performed by PAs, thus permitting cardiologists to become more efficient in the
cath lab while maintaining excellent patient care," Krasuski said.

Krasuski added that with the involvement of PAs, cardiologists are freed up to interpret data
generated by the catheterization, plan the patient's follow-up care and even consult with
referring physicians while the case is still going on.

PAs must receive approximately one year of specialized training to properly perform the
procedure. Additionally, they must have advanced life support training, remain up-to-date on the
latest techniques and information on catheterization and be approved by cath lab directors and
faculty to perform catheterizations.
Joining Krasuski in the study were Dr. John Warner, Dr. Andrew Wang, Dr. J. Kevin Harrison,
John Bolles, Erica Moloney, Carole Ross, Dr. Thomas Bashore and Dr. Michael Sketch Jr.

 

[maxflash04]

I can't believe you're trying to argue this, emedpa.

PA != MD

MD training > PA training

There's a distinct difference between Physician's Assistant and Medical Doctor; the two are not one in the same.

While I respect any medical profession, it's ludicrous to compare the two.

 

[deleted6669]

I can't believe you're trying to argue this, emedpa.

PA != MD

MD training > PA training

There's a distinct difference between Physician's Assistant and Medical Doctor; the two are not one in the same.

While I respect any medical profession, it's ludicrous to compare the two.

it's physician assistant by the way, no 's...common mistake.....
I am not trying to say pa=md. read my posts, I clearly said docs are the experts in any specialty.my point is that with time on the job and additional training a pa can be trained to do 70+% of what a specialty physician does.
right out of school pa's are expected to do 80% of what an fp md does in clinic and 90% of what a pediatrician does in clinic. (notice I'm not talking about managent of complex inpatients here.....)

 

[g_man]

PA's are given a lot of heavy responsibilities. A surgical PA in CT surgery, one can run codes, do vein harvesting and other procedures.

This makes me wonder why PA prerequisite courses are easier than what pre-meds/pre-vets/pre-dental/pre-pharm go through. 1) We had to take the MCAT exam. 2) we did not get away from a year of physics and a year of orgo. 3) we were required to take labs for all of our chem, physics, and bio courses. 4) in doing a comparison I found that some schools allow pre-PA's to take science courses for the non-science major.

Since PA's are being trained by the medical model and have a great deal of responsibility, shouldn't they be subjected to all of these requirements. I find it strange because all of these other health care programs follow the pre-med req's. They (pre-dent, pre-vet, etc) have their own entrance exams, but they took the same courses that we took for med school.

PA school isn't med school... so I don't quite see your point why prospective PA students should take "Pre-Med" requirements? Are you concerned that PAs (when they graduate) will not have enough basic scientific background to actually practice medicine or are you just complaining that since you had to take the MCAT, physcis and Orgo everyone else who practices medicine should too? Would that include NPs? Paramedics? There are others in the world who practice medicine besides MDs...

I don't see the connection between knowing the applications of Hooke's Law or knowing the Grignard Reaction and how that makes a lick of difference in knowing the intricacies and treatments of community-acquired pneumonia... PAs are not meant to be medical scholars, they are meant to be clinicians. The applicable science needed to treat disease is taught in PA school...

Well, this is where docs and PA's differ: we get the complicated cases and therefore we need more of the scientific background for them.

This just makes me laugh...

 

[lawguil]

A lot of you don't understand what I am saying. Again, in researching the programs, the PA entrance REQUIREMENTS do NOT have to be for science majors UNLIKE THE PRE-MED STUDENTS. I have not found one PA program that requires a full year of physics with lab, a year of general chem and lab, year of Ochem with lab, and one year of biology with lab. I know for a fact that predental, pre-vet, pre-pharm have AT LEAST these courses listed as the standard reqs. I know as I had dropped out of Veterinarian school to go to med school.


At my former university PRE-PA's were allowed to take INTRO science classes as prereqs that could be used for non-science majors. When we vet/med students were pre-meds, we weren't allowed to use any intro science classes as our prereqs. Not One.

Again study the reqs for all these programs, you will see that pre-med, pre-vet, pre-pharm and pre-dent all must have ONE YEAR of bio with labs, ONE YEAR of general chem with labs, ONE YEAR of physics with labs, and ONE YEAR of ochem with labs. And no such a thing as taking a semester of gchem and a semester of Ochem. I mean you will find those programs to have at least those courses at the science major level.

Interesting observation on your part, but somewhat short-sited in my opinion.

So pre-pharm, pre-physician/vet/dental/PT students all take a standardized program of pre-vocational study despite the differences in what they will be focusing on in their clinical trade. Have you ever asked why?

The fact is you can be a business major, take a sampling of the most basic natural sciences (remember org. chem and chem are fluff courses to a chemistry major) and be successful in medical/vet/dental/PT school.

But if you are going to marvel over these basic courses and how important they are to clinical training as a physician, wouldn't you naturally agree that more relevant clinical coursework be consumed by pre-med majors.
Surely, bio and general chem are important, but I think any pedagological scholar would argue that bio-chem., micro, histology; immunology and the like would better prepare a student for a vocational program such as medicine.

I'm not convinced of the necessity of physics for a medical student, but it does make sense for a PT student. Org Chem. is somewhat relevant to medical students, but not as relevant as biochem and micro....in my opinion.

Remember, medicine has drifted away from the hardcore science students for more "rounded" individuals.

In my experience, PA schools require more of what is relevant to the practice of medicine.....= prereq coursework that is viewed by university as more specialized such as biochem, micro.....and the like.

Also observe the trend that is still catching traction: med schools are beginning to require more specialized pre-requisite coursework. A growing number of medical schools are requiring biochem...something many PA programs have done for a long time.

I guess if you want to be the perfectly tuned pre-medical student, you could just be a biology major with focus on human biology or a chemistry major, but medical schools already now better.....it doesn't matter....Everything you need to learn in order to meet the entry level practice of medicine as a physician will be taught in medical school and specialty training will be provided through the practical model of on-site - residency training.

The nuts and bolts of US medical school are really just a bachelors program....4 years of schooling with no required experience or specific undergraduate degree. In Europe/mid east, physicians are awarded bachelors (MBBS) until they complete a scholarly piece of research and submit a thesis in the field of medicine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Medicine


These same individuals with the lowly bachelor of medicine and surgery degree often practice in the US as licensed MD's. Also, these same bachelors level practicing physicians interested in earning their doctorate degree can be observed at academic hospitals such as John Hopkins as they attempt to complete a research project and write a thesis.

Just my view. L.

 

[maxflash04]

Very informative and well put post, lawguil.

 

[brainfreeze2007]

oops mistake.

 

[brainfreeze2007]

Probably, the MCAT and a few of the pre-requisite courses for medicine are really to weed people out as being a physician requires a LOT of stamina. Look at calculus: you don't need calculus to do medicine, unless you are going into something like radiology research. However for some as myself, after getting a degree in the physical sciences, those pre-medicine courses were not that challenging after all.

I am not that interested in debating the PA vs MD issue.

But, as far as being treated by one, like a few people I know have said, "if you don't want to be seen by a PA or another midlevel just don't go to a physician that employees them." You have a right to be seen by someone that you want to see. You are a customer and as long as you have to pay, you have the right to request a doc/expert or leave and see a physician in a physician only practice. Unfortunately, you may not have a choice if it is an ER and you live very far from a physician only facility.

By the way, I think people forget that a lot of MD/DO students come in to medicine from other health care fields too. PA's have this as a req, but many, many med students come from other health care fields: paramedics(tons of them), pharmacists, nurses, physical therapists, medical technologists, you name it.

ciao

 

[OnPump]

You may run codes which I think is scary.

K, your ignorance about PAs, combined with your arrogance, is what is scary.

Anyone who is ACLS certified can run a code.

The funny thing- the thrust of your post is that PAs should be required to fulfill the same level prerequisites, yet it is clear that you would prefer for PAs to be kept at an inferior level clinically. You can't have it both ways.

Hopefully residency will make things clearer for you as time goes on.....

 

[brainfreeze2007]

Why is everyone obsessed with running codes? there is so much more to medicine than this. Paramedics and other health care people do this and it seems to be working out.

 

[OnPump]

Why is everyone obsessed with running codes? there is so much more to medicine than this. Paramedics and other health care people do this and it seems to be working out.

I think the OP is the one obsessed with it.

 

[deleted6669]

I ran codes for years as a paramedic and so when I go back to grad school for 3 years I lose this skill? I don't think so......the basis of pa education is that you build on your prior experiences and go from there. during and after pa school I took atls(trauma),fccs( the critical care course), and "the difficult airway course" with physicians and scored at the top of the class in these courses. you don't need a doctorate level degree to be capable of learning new clinical material and incorporating it into your practice.....

 

[kylek044]

A lot of you don't understand what I am saying. Again, in researching the programs, the PA entrance REQUIREMENTS do NOT have to be for science majors UNLIKE THE PRE-MED STUDENTS. I have not found one PA program that requires a full year of physics with lab, a year of general chem and lab, year of Ochem with lab, and one year of biology with lab. I know for a fact that predental, pre-vet, pre-pharm have AT LEAST these courses listed as the standard reqs. I know as I had dropped out of Veternarian school to go to med school.


At my former university PRE-PA's were allowed to take INTRO science classes as prereqs that could be used for non-science majors. When we vet/med students were pre-meds, we weren't allowed to use any intro science classes as our prereqs. Not One.

Again study the reqs for all these programs, you will see that pre-med, pre-vet, pre-pharm and pre-dent all must have ONE YEAR of bio with labs, ONE YEAR of general chem with labs, ONE YEAR of physics with labs, and ONE YEAR of ochem with labs. And no such a thing as taking a semester of gchem and a semester of Ochem. I mean you will find those programs to have at least those courses at the science major level.

I think you might be missing the point. A Physician is really the top of the food chain. A PA is a mid-level. Why would a mid level be trained to the same level as a physician?

A PA has different pre-reqs because they are a mid-level profession. They are not MD/DOs.

 

[brainfreeze2007]

Yeah, kylek that makes sense. And the need for really good scores on the mcat and very high marks in their pre-requisite courses weeds those out from medical school.

 

[deleted6669]

Yeah, kylek that makes sense. And the need for really good scores on the mcat and very high marks in their pre-requisite courses weeds those out from medical school.

actually some folks choose to be pa's despite high gpa's, believe it or not. my undergrad gpa was 3.97 in a science based major at the university of ca, I'm guessing that would have made the medschool cut.....

 

[PhysioMan]

actually some folks choose to be pa's despite high gpa's, believe it or not. my undergrad gpa was 3.97 in a science based major at the university of ca, I'm guessing that would have made the medschool cut.....

Agree. I had better stats than most pre-meds at my univ. and turned down med school to be a PA. In the end, I decided that going from working in healthcare to sitting in a class "re-learning" some subjects was actually a step backwards. I have no problem deferring a case to a "4-year" if I do not feel comfortable. The reality is though that a "2-year" can handle a large % of cases that are experienced in true primary care. We got this all the time in the teaching facility I worked in. The "4-years" decided that the extra year of didactic entitled them to see EVERY case. After a while though they realized that PAs actually LESSENED their stress level by seeing a large % of the run-of-the-mill cases. I am speaking about residents of course. I understand that a 3-4 year residency may equal more understanding. This experience is done on-the-job by PAs while earning a real salary.

 

[SilleAngyl]

Yeah, kylek that makes sense. And the need for really good scores on the mcat and very high marks in their pre-requisite courses weeds those out from medical school.

Like emedpa and PhysioMan said, going to PA school is often a choice rather than a last resort when med school doesnt work out. I applied and was accepted to med school, but will not be attending because, after some soul-searching, I've decided that PA school is more my style for multiple reasons. Now I'm back in school taking pre-reqs for PA school and praying to God that I get in. Yes, they are quite competitive to get into. Some estimate that they are more competitive than med school.

 

[kylek044]

Yeah, kylek that makes sense. And the need for really good scores on the mcat and very high marks in their pre-requisite courses weeds those out from medical school.

I hope that before you graduate you realize that mid-levels are NOT some kind of failed-doctors. They are each their own profession. They require their own training and their own scope of practice. They are not some kind of sub-doctor professionals; medicine is made of different disciplines, much like science. Care can be Physician-based, Nursing-based, Resp Therapy-based, Physical Therapy-based, etc. There are reasons that each professional is practicing in their respective field.

 

[PAtoMD]

Whoa! I just came on to this board for the first time and found an interesting argument...I couldn't hold back.

Well, I was a PA and have just graduated med school. I can honestly say that med school was much, much harder. Classes that were similar went in to much more depth and detail. I am not the only PA in my school that will testify to this.

We can't even compare the caliber of students admitted to both programs because the prerequisites for both programs vary too much.

I was planning on going to nursing school before I even thought about PA school. I was able to use many of the entrance requirements that I took for nursing school for PA school. Again, requirements vary too much to compare PA school with med school.

The general GRE was a breeze next to the MCAT. I have known people that were star students and did not do well on the MCAT. This can really hurt one's chance for admission.

The GPA's are less forgiving for med school. They are interested in your ugrad GPA and won't combine everything that you have done in to one GPA. For PA school, the bcpm gpa and overall gpa include undergraduate grades, post-bacc grades and anything taken at the graduate level. Some of the medical students had to do a post-bacc and get a graduate degree to get an acceptance to medical school. If medical schools combined gpas (overall and bcpm) from all programs, hell many students wouldn't have had to bother with doing a post-bacc or for that matter another undergraduate degree.

We are not even talking about the same level of degrees. One is a master's degree or Bachelors and the MD is a doctorate program. Just like there are major differences when you compare a master's level psychotherapist with a Ph.d clinical psychologist. In the real world, they both do therapy; however, many Ph.d's go into academia. So there is much more involved in a Ph.d program.

So both programs can't be compared because they are not even at the same level and vary too much in the admissions process. It is like comparing an undergraduate (some PA schools are still Bachelor's level) program with graduate school.

By the way, I meant no offense to nurses. I know nursing programs are competitive, especially where I live.

Anyway, I went on to med school because I was tired of being an assistant.

 

[lawguil]

Whoa! I just came on to this board for the first time and found an interesting argument...I couldn't hold back.

Well, I was a PA and have just graduated med school. I can honestly say that med school was much, much harder. Classes that were similar went in to much more depth and detail. I am not the only PA in my school that will testify to this.

We can't even compare the caliber of students admitted to both programs because the prerequisites for both programs vary too much.

I was planning on going to nursing school before I even thought about PA school. I was able to use many of the entrance requirements that I took for nursing school for PA school. Again, requirements vary too much to compare PA school with med school.

The general GRE was a breeze next to the MCAT. I have known people that were star students and did not do well on the MCAT. This can really hurt one's chance for admission.

The GPA's are less forgiving for med school. They are interested in your ugrad GPA and won't combine everything that you have done in to one GPA. For PA school, the bcpm gpa and overall gpa include undergraduate grades, post-bacc grades and anything taken at the graduate level. Some of the medical students had to do a post-bacc and get a graduate degree to get an acceptance to medical school. If medical schools combined gpas (overall and bcpm) from all programs, hell many students wouldn't have had to bother with doing a post-bacc or for that matter another undergraduate degree.

We are not even talking about the same level of degrees. One is a master's degree or Bachelors and the MD is a doctorate program. Just like there are major differences when you compare a master's level psychotherapist with a Ph.d clinical psychologist. In the real world, they both do therapy; however, many Ph.d's go into academia. So there is much more involved in a Ph.d program.

So both programs can't be compared because they are not even at the same level and vary too much in the admissions process. It is like comparing an undergraduate (some PA schools are still Bachelor's level) program with graduate school.

By the way, I meant no offense to nurses. I know nursing programs are competitive, especially where I live.

Anyway, I went on to med school because I was tired of being an assistant.

Kajukenbo,

How convenient - but you can't create a new character on this forum and expect that know body is going to be suspicious

 

[Kajukenbo]

Sorry to disappoint you.

But, we aren't the same character. I never went to PA school. I went through a Ph.d program in Geophysics.

You don't like what we are saying, so this is your only defense. We are entitled to our viewpoints and experiences.

I had forgotten about this thread ever since I wrote my last post. I haven't even read all the threads pertaining to my last post. I read your post because it happens to be very short.

 

[oldManDO2009]

What an interesting thread!

My take on pre-reqs: will you be able to handle the science work load of med school and apply the principles learned to medicine. I could not even recall half of the equations used to describe mass, motion and force in respect to an object moving - but I do understand that when an object hits the human body and applies force that there are certain results that may cause damage to tissue. I could not tell you what the numbers would be but I can imagine that this object will behave in a certain way and I can predict or estimate what type of damage that would occur. Thank you physics.

When I open up drug information inserts I still am intimidated by the molecular structure of the compound and could not describe more than the types of compounds present and their basic reactivity - OH reacts and C typically does not. Thank you Organic and Bio chemistry.

So pre-reqs have some benefit to the health care student.

I was accepted to the PA and DO program at Touro. Why did I choose the DO program at 39 verses the PA program where I would be soon graduating and earning a good living do what I really like to do - procedural medicine or EM

I started out as an LPN went into the ARMY and became an RN 1990. There is a huge difference between what I understood as a nurse and how I see things as a third year. I understood that potassium should be replaced in the typical potassium deficient patient. Additionally, I understood the basic ideas behind that replacement and as a nurse and could manage the procedures to replace that potassium (IV, Meds, monitor, etc). As a third year I have a much better understanding of how that potassium replacement affects the body and the many diseases that can cause hypokalemia. This is a huge difference and a point I argue often.

I have worked with mid-levels (as a nurse) and in all likelihood will continue to work with mid-levels after school as colleagues in the ER. I would hope that the average PA understands the difference between medical school and their training and education. I have always found PAs more grounded in their approach to patient/disease management because their schooling is so closely related to medical school. Now, there are your exceptions and emedpa appears to be an example of a PA with a lot of experience and a vested interest in continuing education. This probably makes him a very competent provider but you cannot compare his experience and mid-level provider expectations to that of a doctor - they are different functions with many similarities (apples v oranges --> you know both round, fruit, full of fructose, etc).

I have worked with many NP's on the floor and extensively reviewed the course work from several NP programs prior to attending medical school because I was already a nurse and it seemed a logical next step. Additionally, I compared PA training to NP curriculum; the NP route was off the table. Many of these programs rely on your training as a nurse for the framework of continuing education. The variability between ASN, BSN, on-line and on-campus programs made NP training inadequate in my mind. One year of pharm and advanced concepts in physical diagnosis did not seem like it would provide me the skills necessary to perform my job. On the other hand, most of the PA programs are similar in content and have regulated clinical experiences which made more sense in my twisted mind. I worked with this nurse who just had to work another 800 - 1000 hours with a doctor to get her credentials. These hours did not have any requirements for rotating through different specialties or minimal hours of exposure to peds, FM, surgery, etc. I found this disturbing, NPs can obtain licensure (and pushing for independent practice rights) without the kind of exposure to patients required by PA/MD/DO programs. I found this to be reflected in patient management styles and PAs appeared (in my opinion) better trained to practice as mid-level provider. I am sure the above statement will get me mucho hate mail but I have found this to be true in my experience. I have worked with some great NPs - my PCP was an NP and she treated my wife and I - so don't take the above statement as a condemnation of the NP just my observation of a handful of people that I have worked with over the years.

So in my opinion, PAs are better trained then NPs but still are mid-level providers. Why would we even try to compare a PA to a physician, as I stated earlier they are different professions with different job expectations? They are trained to handle the vast majority of conditions seen in the disease model of medicine and in my opinion do a great job. They provide that care as well as the physician standing right next to him/her but that does not make you a physician but it does make you a valuable member of the health care team.

It is obvious I have an ax to grind with the whole "NP I should be able to practice independently" thing but this thread has exposed a side of the PA I have yet to experience. I did not think PAs were so caught up in the "I am just as good/or better than a physician" thing. Anyways, this thread does not change my opinion of a PA - just adds a bit of confusion to my understanding of the PA in general.

I am having computer problems and I apologize for all of the edits...

 

[LAZYGUY]

Ok, Ok people. We get it....PAs are invaluable. But you do yourself and your profession harm my making outrageous claims at the expense of others [we do 80% of this specialty, and 90% of that, we run EDs and blah blah blah].

 

[LAZYGUY]

And just for further blab. I have always been impressed by yhe incredibly mounting curriculum pa's face. They essentially have to get most of what we learn, in less time. From my experience with PA's, yes they do know less, but not a whole lot less. Emedpa is right, >90% of what you need you will pick up in practice and through experience. Physicians in general will have the fund of knowledge to communicate with other physicians, coordinate treatment & diagnosis with multiple specialties.

 

[Empi]

I am presently taking prerequisites for both medical and PA school because I haven't decided which path I will take after I graduate.

There are actually more prerequisites for PA school and getting into PA school can be more competitive than medical school in some places.

The PA programs are very demanding. If I end up going to PA school it will absolutely *not* be my backup plan in case I don't get into medical school.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I am presently taking prerequisites for both medical and PA school because I haven't decided which path I will take after I graduate.

There are actually more prerequisites for PA school and getting into PA school can be more competitive than medical school in some places.

The PA programs are very demanding. If I end up going to PA school it will absolutely *not* be my backup plan in case I don't get into medical school.

which is how it should be - A PA is not someone who could not get into med school but the guy/gal working up the patient next to you.

good luck!

 

[Empi]

Thank-you, I'm going to need it.

 

[primadonna22274]

This whole thread is funny. I've been a PA for 7 years. I take my MCAT in, oh, 18 hr, and while it won't be a stellar performance as I had my sciences 11 yr ago and I've been working 6 out of the last 7 days, I'll get it over with and see where the chips fall. I didn't have to take any extra courses to apply to med school because my prereqs for PA school were far more than most med schools (with the exception of physics, but ha, both schools in SC don't require physics, nice for me).
I second the PA who said he was tired of being an assistant.
Pray for me!
lisa

 

[deleted6669]

This whole thread is funny. I've been a PA for 7 years. I take my MCAT in, oh, 18 hr, and while it won't be a stellar performance as I had my sciences 11 yr ago and I've been working 6 out of the last 7 days, I'll get it over with and see where the chips fall. I didn't have to take any extra courses to apply to med school because my prereqs for PA school were far more than most med schools (with the exception of physics, but ha, both schools in SC don't require physics, nice for me).
I second the PA who said he was tired of being an assistant.
Pray for me!
lisa

yup, I had to take physics and stats when I was thinking about going this route as well. also genetics(ohsu likes it).

 

[oldManDO2009]

This whole thread is funny. I've been a PA for 7 years. I take my MCAT in, oh, 18 hr, and while it won't be a stellar performance as I had my sciences 11 yr ago and I've been working 6 out of the last 7 days, I'll get it over with and see where the chips fall. I didn't have to take any extra courses to apply to med school because my prereqs for PA school were far more than most med schools (with the exception of physics, but ha, both schools in SC don't require physics, nice for me).
I second the PA who said he was tired of being an assistant.
Pray for me!
lisa

my MCAT was not stellar and much of my college was in my far past. No worries, you will get in - experience counts!

 

[primadonna22274]

Thank you. Off to take the test!
L.

my MCAT was not stellar and much of my college was in my far past. No worries, you will get in - experience counts!