PA-C to D.O. Bridge passes!!!!!

[Makati2008]

Hey guys and gals,
I just got some GREAT information from a well known D.O. that the bridge has passed. First class will start in 2011 as of now. AOA COCA gave approval yesterday afternoon.

Very exciting time for PA's. Bridge will consists of 2 years of regular medical school didactics and the rotation portion will be shortened to bring the school total to 2years and 10months!

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[deleted6669]

I heard this as well and confirmed it yesterday.
official announcement from the program in 2 weeks.
it's been a long time in coming.
first class will be only 12 students.
all of ms1 and ms2 then a hybrid clinical yr.
mcat and all nl prereqs still required.

 

[spudbunny]

If a PA/DO or PA/MD bridge becomes reality, there will be a lot of nurses who will choose PA school instead of NP school (including me!). I think that a bridge for PAs will effectively kill the DNP. Who would want to pay inflated prices for fluff DNP when they could go PA and then bridge to DO or MD?

 

[Makati2008]

I highly doubt it will kill the DNP. Most people that would be willing to get a DNP in the first place wouldn't want to go through the rigors of residency.....

I do personally hope they accept people that have been practicing as P.A.'s for a set number of years instead of those who have no experience(whether it is clinical or academic) but I couldn't fathom making a seven year(med. school and residency) sentence into a ten year one(PA school +Med. school +residency).

I think this program will fit those have been practicing for a several years and would like to gain independent practice. I hope that the AMA/AOA will fully embrace these programs as viable ways to alleviate physician shortages.

PS-As of yesterday the PA/DO bridge IS a reality.

 

[MedLurker]

Which DO school is this? Also, what are the requirements for applicants? Figured I would ask, because if the program is only 2 years 10 months and PA program is only 2 years, you can become a physician in 4 years 10 months whereas traditional medical school is 7 years. It would seem that this would be the ideal route to take.

 

[Makati2008]

You become a physician at that point but you still have to do a residency at that point(You would have a D.O. without a residency) for your degree to be worth something.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

...because if the program is only 2 years 10 months and PA program is only 2 years, you can become a physician in 4 years 10 months whereas traditional medical school is 7 years. It would seem that this would be the ideal route to take.

No. It would be longer (assuming a graduate level PA program). You still gotta do your residency.

Traditional: 4 years MD or DO, followed by 3+ years residency = at least 7 years

PA + PA/DO bridge: 2+ years of PA + (experience) + ~3 yrs bridge + followed by 3+ years residency = at least 8 years

 

[MedLurker]

No. It would be longer (assuming a graduate level PA program). You still gotta do your residency.

Traditional: 4 years MD or DO, followed by 3+ years residency = at least 7 years

PA + PA/DO bridge: 2+ years of PA + (experience) + ~3 yrs bridge + followed by 3+ years residency = at least 8 years

Ahhh, got it. I misunderstood and thought that residency would be included in the 2 years 10 months.

I wonder how competitive the program will be.

 

[deleted6669]

I wonder how competitive the program will be.

with 12 spots and 75,000 potential applicants....you do the math....

 

[Makati2008]

with 12 spots and 75,000 potential applicants....you do the math....

Lol I agree with your math.
I am hoping that the D.O. student's won't/don't start a flame war about this. I am noticing some rumbles on the board already in the D.O. student realm.

To the other D.O. students that read this- I am doing D.O. school the traditional way and I am a ER PA now. I hold no qualms about my colleagues going back to school to get the D.O. degree. Can you tell me why should you? They will be forced to go through the first two years of medical school which have the highest attrition rates as well as taking the COMLEX like us. I think that these provide safeguards on many levels personally.

 

[deleted6669]

They will be forced to go through the first two years of medical school which have the highest attrition rates as well as taking the COMLEX like us. I think that these provide safeguards on many levels personally.

they will also need to have all the same prereqs and get a qualifying score on the mcat.
basically what is being cut out I imagine(haven't seen the curriculum yet) are some intro to clinical rotations type courses and probably a few primary care rotations.

 

[tkyle56]

I will be beginning at a DO school, NSUCOM, in the fall and I think as long as you are required to have the pre-reqs and MCAT that is required to gain admittance I have no problem with basically shaving a year off of the core rotations. When I thought that PAs doing the program wouldn't have to do residency it didn't make sense, but finding out that they would I think it is a great opportunity. I know many DO and MD schools like accepting PAs and RNs as it is. I would caution that most physicians tell me they didn't know what they wanted to do until after the core rotations so I would be cautious of not doing a core rotation that you do not have experience in. I hope the students of the program take the first two years with the other med students and not separate from the other students.

 

[primadonna22274]

I had an enlightening and encouraging conversation with Dr Mark Kauffman at LECOM-Erie about this yesterday. Dr K is a PA and DO (and a really nice guy). This is his "baby". It's for real. I never thought I would see the day...but the future is here.

Everything E has told you is true from the horse's mouth. I didn't think to ask what the experience requirements were (damn) but I imagine a minimum of 5 years in practice. MCAT is required as there is no way around that; usual prereqs *except* PAs may get credit (on an individual basis) for specific courses they've taken in lieu of traditional prereqs like physics.

For me at 10 years in practice this is enticing indeed. It's still a big sacrifice but it helps to shave off a year of tuition and income loss. Also all of the different learning pathways EXCEPT PCSP are open to the PA-to-DO so the student will still reap the benefit of learning how he or she learns best.

Most of us PAs who want to return to medical school know what we need to know better, so this is tailor-made.

And yes, the competition will be fierce...I'm told DMU did something like this a decade or two ago and they were flooded with qualified applicants. Not sure why it was phased out (revenue loss from too many gunner PAs who were in for 3 instead of 4 years?)

PA-to-DO option will be available in both the Erie and Seton Hill campuses, not Bradenton for now. Seton Hill is PBL only.

 

[deleted6669]

my understanding from speaking with someone in the know is that the pa's will be in class with the regular students. I don't think the pa's will avoid any rotations entirely just not double up on some that are done twice( correct me if I'm wrong here but I think med stduents typically do several rotations of IM and surgery for example).

 

[ShyFly]

LECOM already offers a 3 year pathway for those WITHOUT a PA-C who want to enter primary care so essentially, this shaves off 2 months total? Not a big deal.

 

[deleted6669]

LECOM already offers a 3 year pathway for those WITHOUT a PA-C who want to enter primary care so essentially, this shaves off 2 months total? Not a big deal.

the only difference being that bridge grads could apply for any residency, not just primary care.
I'm guessing a lot of folks who opt for this may have "ins" with residency programs already. for example I have taught as a preceptor for 2 md residency programs. I imagine I would have a good chance matching at those 2 programs.

 

[primadonna22274]

It's a different setup than PCSP. Also, at present there is no guarantee to any entering PA-C that s/he will get PCSP...it's only decided after Anatomy at the end of the first semester. THEN a more accelerated and condensed M1-2 curriculum that goes until March of M2 year, short break, back out on rotations through end of year 3.
Also PCSP is restricted to primary care (duh) whereas the PA-to-DO is not. At present I'm told 50% of the PA-to-DO slots are slated to be primary care and the other 50% open for specialty practice, recognizing that there WILL BE talented specialty PA-Cs who are hungry for more knowledge and likely to want further specialty training as DOs.

LECOM already offers a 3 year pathway for those WITHOUT a PA-C who want to enter primary care so essentially, this shaves off 2 months total? Not a big deal.

 

[SuperEMT]

This is real exciting, as an EMT I am hoping that they create a EMT/RN bridge. We pretty much have the same course work as RN's. Also I feel that we have more experience. I think that these bridge programs are at the cutting edge of medicine. The only problem with the PA/DO bridge is that they should just be called DO, it would be weird to have a doctor titled PA/DO.

 

[tkyle56]

SuperEMT I think we should just give you a MD or DO degree right now, whichever you want. As well as RN, PA, DNP, DDS, any other degrees you would like bestowed on you, because I agree with you. You pretty much have the same course work as every other field of medicine and you obviously have much more experience than every other medical professional because after all you are a SUPER EMT.

 

[tncekm]

This is real exciting, as an EMT I am hoping that they create a EMT/RN bridge. We pretty much have the same course work as RN's. Also I feel that we have more experience. I think that these bridge programs are at the cutting edge of medicine. The only problem with the PA/DO bridge is that they should just be called DO, it would be weird to have a doctor titled PA/DO.

Dude, ever see: MD, PhD, FACS on someone's shirts and notice that BS is omitted? People include / omit what they want.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

This is real exciting, as an EMT I am hoping that they create a EMT/RN bridge. We pretty much have the same course work as RN's. Also I feel that we have more experience. I think that these bridge programs are at the cutting edge of medicine. The only problem with the PA/DO bridge is that they should just be called DO, it would be weird to have a doctor titled PA/DO.

There are a lot of paramedic to RN bridges all over the country. An EMT isn't even close to RN so don't count on that although Excelsior offers a correspondence program that doesn't lead to licensure in all states.

 

[SuperEMT]

Working in the ER as a Tech, I would have to say that we have a lot of experience. For instance we do EKG's, Splints, wound care, and assist nurses with everything from wiping butts to foley catheters. We also put in orders for the physicians. So I would say we would just need to take pharmacology and we would be able to do what nurses do.

 

[tncekm]

There are 3ways for you to determine your level of competence relative to that of a nurses:

1. Ask an EMT turned nurse.
2. Ask a physician. Asking a nurse or an EMT will obviously produce a bias answer.
3. Become a nurse.

 

[morning]

Personally as a dumb premed I have no problem with this. Again, I know my opinion means zilch in the scheme of things, but this is good news - PAs do know more than the vast majority of premeds, unequivocally, and should be able to cut some of the fluff out if they want to get their MD.


Two things, though...

#1 This should cut both ways. MDs who don't want to do a residency should be allowed to practice as a PA instead. I think there are some people who would jump at the chance. Not everyone who finishes medical school still wants to be a doctor.

#2 The residency bottleneck that will be created if more schools enact these bridges will be alarming - because there are many new medical schools opening and older schools are increasing the number of spaces in their classes - while no new residency positions have been created. Adding a third element to the mix could create quite a kerfluffle.

In an ideal world #1 happens and more residency slots are created, making everything easier on everyone. That probably won't happen

 

[primadonna22274]

For the record as a PA educator, I agree with you. I like the "stem cell model" where PAs and MD/DOs enter medical school together and go through the same rotations, then those who decide they want out and don't want to do residency get off after year 3, pass PANCE and are eligible to become licensed as PAs. They will always be a dependent provider whose license and livelihood is tied to the supervising physician. The SP is a board-certified and residency-trained MD/DO who has an independent license. Both groups respect and understand one another because they have learned and worked together throughout their training. And the world is a happier place...

Don't see it happening anytime soon though. It's an interesting thought. I know there are folks who graduate medical school and just feel stuck, and due to debt they have to keep pushing on because there really is nothing else they can do. Sad really. And on the opposite end of the spectrum are PAs who have been working a while who realize how much they love medicine and are hungry for more knowledge. They want to know more and do more. THEY are the folks for whom this bridge was created. And yes, we always had the opportunity to do traditional medical school, but it would help to have a leg up (special consideration, if you will) in recognition of our prior knowledge and clinical experience.

Perhaps down the road the PA and MD/DO communities will be able to use their collective strength to build bridges that go both ways. Until now, the PA-to-DO bridge is a start, and a long time coming.

#1 This should cut both ways. MDs who don't want to do a residency should be allowed to practice as a PA instead. I think there are some people who would jump at the chance. Not everyone who finishes medical school still wants to be a doctor.

In an ideal world #1 happens and more residency slots are created, making everything easier on everyone. That probably won't happen

 

[xavier2000]

I am waiting for introduction of the pre-school to MD/DO bridge.

 

[DocNusum]

Re: "Stem cell model"...

Yeah...
Like the current iteration of the nursing programs here.

Everyone applies to the programs after completing the standard pre-reqs then:

If you complete 1 yr you can sit for the LPN/LVN exam. If you continue on and complete yr 2 you can sit for the RN exam. If you continue on and complete yr 3.5, you will have earned a BSN. At the end of this, you will have attended 2 schools, but during this process, your seat/progression is pretty much guaranteed as long as your grades meet the 85% minimum.

Re: SuperEMT...

EMT basic is on average a 110-120 hr course that is often completed in 2 weeks or stretched our over a college qtr/sem... then 1-2 8hr clinical ride-alongs. EMT-I is an additional 120hrs, with a EMT-P able to be completed in 6-12 months.

LPN is on average 12-15 months long with ~ 90-105 8hr clinical days, with the RN able to be completed in 24months.

RNs are able to bridge to EMT-P in 2 week programs, but it takes much longer for EMT-Ps to become RNs.

Why...??? Because most (not all) of what is covered in a EMT-P program has been covered in a typical RN program, but little of whats been covered in a RN program is covered in the typical EMT-P program. Which is one of the reasons why many states allow MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs/RNs to challenge EMT-B then immeadiatly take a EMT-P "refresher" course then take the State EMT-P test, get a state license if they pass it, then take the NREMTP exam.

How do I know this...???

DocNusum, former EMT-B/I/P, currrent RN, FNP/PA-C

 

[AegriSomnia]

Where have you seen a medic course that is only 6 months long? As for the the course work covered in both RN and paramedic curricula the former does not cover the same material as the latter. Different professions entirely. Where I work we have BSN students ride along and they are not tought things that a paramedic learns the first week of class. Paramedics also don't learn a lot of the chronic care and any of nursing theory. My state no longer allows RNs to challenge the paramedic exam because without the paramedic training they were becoming subpar medics, even if they were good nurses.

Re: "Stem cell model"...

Yeah...
Like the current iteration of the nursing programs here.

Everyone applies to the programs after completing the standard pre-reqs then:

If you complete 1 yr you can sit for the LPN/LVN exam. If you continue on and complete yr 2 you can sit for the RN exam. If you continue on and complete yr 3.5, you will have earned a BSN. At the end of this, you will have attended 2 schools, but during this process, your seat/progression is pretty much guaranteed as long as your grades meet the 85% minimum.

Re: SuperEMT...

EMT basic is on average a 110-120 hr course that is often completed in 2 weeks or stretched our over a college qtr/sem... then 1-2 8hr clinical ride-alongs. EMT-I is an additional 120hrs, with a EMT-P able to be completed in 6-12 months.

LPN is on average 12-15 months long with ~ 90-105 8hr clinical days, with the RN able to be completed in 24months.

RNs are able to bridge to EMT-P in 2 week programs, but it takes much longer for EMT-Ps to become RNs.

Why...??? Because most (not all) of what is covered in a EMT-P program has been covered in a typical RN program, but little of whats been covered in a RN program is covered in the typical EMT-P program. Which is one of the reasons why many states allow MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs/RNs to challenge EMT-B then immeadiatly take a EMT-P "refresher" course then take the State EMT-P test, get a state license if they pass it, then take the NREMTP exam.

How do I know this...???

DocNusum, former EMT-B/I/P, currrent RN, FNP/PA-C

 

[dokmark]

Hello Everyone,

Let me try to clear up a little of what is going on with the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway (APAP) at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine. Being a PA myself, I had always heard of a medical school that offered an accelerated program for PA’s who wished to return to medical school. It always turned out to be an "urban legend" so I came to LECOM as a student in 1996. Being a DO and a PA gave me insight into the differences and similarities of the curricula and to design APAP. On May 22nd, we presented our curriculum request to our accrediting body, AOA COCA who officially approved the new pathway. Once approval is obtained, per our governing body, implementation cannot begin for 120 days which puts us past the incoming class in August, meaning our start date will be with the incoming class of 2011. We are approved for 12 slots, six primary care, meaning those accepted into the program will be required to do primary care residencies and six open. This is the lay press release:

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine announces the approval of an accelerated three-year medical school curriculum for Certified Physician Assistants to obtain a Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine degree. On May 22nd, 2010 The American Osteopathic Association Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation approved the Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway (APAP). The pathway was designed and will be directed by Mark Kauffman DO, PA, MS Med Ed as a response to predicted physician shortages. Physician Assistants are healthcare professionals who work under the scope of their supervising physicians. They undergo rigorous didactic medical curriculum as well as at least one year of clinical rotations to obtain the entry level masters degree for the profession. Debate suggesting a change in the entry-level to that of a doctorate degree resulted in the PA Clinical Doctorate Summit of March 2009. The Summit conducted the 2009 Physician Assistant Doctoral Summit Survey. The results of which recognized that many physician assistants wish to become physicians citing the desire to practice independently, the need for professional growth and development, the need for increased medical knowledge and the ability to do more for their patients as the most common reasons to do so. Currently only 4% of PAs return to medical school noting cost and time away from clinical practice as major barriers.
In 2008, 37% of PAs choose to work in primary care. Growth in demand for primary care physicians will increase by more than 15 percent over the next decade. Dr. Kauffman and LECOM have identified PAs as excellent candidates for medical school as they have demonstrated the ability to successfully complete demanding curriculum, have practiced clinically, and have expressed the desire to increase their medical knowledge. By accelerating the medical school curriculum to 3 instead of 4 years, LECOM will reduce the cost and time away from clinical practice for PAs within this pathway by one quarter. Students will complete the first year of didactic instruction followed by 8 weeks of primary care clinical clerkships. They would then return to the second year of didactic instruction followed by 48 weeks of clinical clerkship training. Applicants to the program will be required to have obtained a minimum of 22 on the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT). The first students would be enrolled in the fall of 2011.

In response to some of the issues posted to the forum

1) MCAT: Medical education literature notes that the MCAT is predictor for the ability to obtain core knowledge in Basic Sciences and perform well on standardized testing. It fails to recognize other areas that make good physicians like empathy and the desire to serve. Unfortunately, our accrediting body does not allow a school to pick out subsets of applicants. LECOM requires a minimum MCAT of 22, the level below which students without prior medical training struggle with the medical boards. PAs that have gone through LECOM already have scored lower on the MCAT as we do not take traditional pre-medical sciences often picking up physics, organic and inorganic chem just to meet the med school requirements and take the MCAT. However, despite the lower MCAT, their performance on the DO COMLEX Boards is superior as is there graduating class rank. Again, the rule applies that what you require of one applicant must be required of all, so even considering lower MCAT scores for APAP is not possible. I am not aware of any US medical school that does not require MCAT. If anyone knows of a school that doesn’t, please let me know. I would like to see how they do on their Boards. Another poster recommended taking a MCAT prep course. Good idea.

2) Stepping Stone: PA’s are an extremely valuable asset to medicine. However, as noted in the press release, once experiencing medicine, some have strong desires to become physicians. The 2009 Summit Survey noted the following four reasons as the most common: Ability to practice independently, Need for professional growth and development, Need for increased medical knowledge and Ability to do more for patients. The program is in no way designed to take practitioners away from one field into another. For those who question why PAs should support those who choose to leave the profession, the answer is; which physicians will be the best supporters of the PA profession, those who are PAs themselves.

3) Barriers to returning to med school include the financial burden and time away from practice. This program is 138 weeks of training and will cut the total cost of medical school by ¼.

4) Twelve slots: When applying for new programs, approval is less hampered if smaller numbers are sought. Though barred from the debate process during our application, apparently it was lengthy. Anytime a new program is developed, assurance of its success must be made. With demonstration of success, advancements can be made. As noted by many forum posters, it is a start and no longer an urban myth.

5) Pre-requisites: Schools do have the liberty to accept some courses in lieu of others. Many applicants will take all of the standard physics, organic and inorganic chem just for the MCAT but you shouldn’t hold your application if you have not had all of these courses. Each application will be assessed individually and other completed courses will be considered and approved as appropriate.

6) Clinical experience: only completion of your PA curriculum and certification is required meaning you have had at least 1 year of clinical experience. You could go directly from PA school to LECOM.

7) Applications for the program are through AACOMAS. If planning to apply, put it your application early and notate your PA training.

Thank you and I hope this cleared up some of the issues. I am sure there will be many more. I will be working on formal publication of this information as soon as possible.

 

[Taurus]

It may be hard for some of you to believe but I would actually support this. It's an acceptable compromise. Doing 3 out of the 4 medical school years since you already have done 2 years of PA school sounds fair. I don't think that many people would choose the PA -> MD path over going straight to medical school because it is a lot more work, but I think it's good for those people who want to advance themselves and can do more. I would even support NP -> MD if they satisfy the same requirements as the PA -> MD path. Knowing the NP's and how they don't like to actually put in the work but instead like to use propaganda to convince anyone dumb enough to listen that they are "good enough", I doubt the NP's would support a NP -> MD path.

 

[Socrates25]

for example I have taught as a preceptor for 2 md residency programs. I imagine I would have a good chance matching at those 2 programs.

Considering that you work at institutions where "there are never any MDs on site and everything is 100% run by PAs" I'd lay good odds that these "residency programs" would take anybody with a pulse. We arent talking about MGH or Hopkins here after all. How many family medicine applicants did they get the last few years? What was their unmatched rate last year? LMAO any FMG grad from any scrub caribbean school could walk into those residency slots no questions asked.

 

[Socrates25]

It may be hard for some of you to believe but I would actually support this. It's an acceptable compromise. Doing 3 out of the 4 medical school years since you already have done 2 years of PA school sounds fair.

I tend to agree, however what you are missing is that this is just an "entry point" ploy. After a couple of years, they will water down the requirements and it will magically go from 3 years to 2 years to 18 months, you get the picture.

LECOM (just like most DO programs) is all about the $$$. They would gladly open up a DO school in every city if the AOA would let them get away with it. Considering that the boneheads at AOA have allowed the joke that is Rocky Vista in Colorado to open, I wouldnt put anything past them. The president of the AOA and its executive committee needs a swift kick in the *****.

 

[Taurus]

I tend to agree, however what you are missing is that this is just an "entry point" ploy. After a couple of years, they will water down the requirements and it will magically go from 3 years to 2 years to 18 months, you get the picture.

LECOM (just like most DO programs) is all about the $$$. They would gladly open up a DO school in every city if the AOA would let them get away with it. Considering that the boneheads at AOA have allowed the joke that is Rocky Vista in Colorado to open, I wouldnt put anything past them. The president of the AOA and its executive committee needs a swift kick in the *****.

What is the alternative? You don't give these groups an outlet and they will create their own solutions which is even worse, ie, the DNP and DPA. This bridge is not for everyone. Honestly, if I were a PA, I would think long and hard before I would do this bridge and probably not do it. What people need to understand is that sure you shave 1 year off medical school but are you compromising your competitiveness for residency by doing so? In the grand scheme of medical training, 1 year is a drop in the bucket. If you're going into FP, IM, psych, peds, it's fine to do this bridge. However, if you want something more competitive like derm, ortho, plastics, rads, ENT, etc, it's going to be hard for a 3 year bridge medical student to compete with a 4 year medical student who had more time to study for the boards (and do better) and to do research. Remember that medicine is very traditional. Program directors don't like to take chances. That's why there is still a lot of bias against DO's. Nevertheless, I support this proposal but people need to realize that they are rolling the dice by doing this bridge. If I were aiming high, I would just do the traditional 4 year route.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

I would say RN is ~ Paramedic. Sure, a few 6 month shake and bake medic mills exist; however, a few RN shake and bake BA in underwater basket weaving to RN programmes exist. All things considered, the difference is in clinical experience and mind set.

IMHO the transition from RN to PM and visa versa should not be all that difficult on the average.

Regarding the topic at hand, I am nether a PA nor a DO, therefore I cannot make any intelligent remarks. However, it does seem that this programme at least attempts to provide "medical" education. Clearly, a better deal than some other programmes we all know and love...

 

[deleted6669]

Considering that you work at institutions where "there are never any MDs on site and everything is 100% run by PAs" I'd lay good odds that these "residency programs" would take anybody with a pulse. We arent talking about MGH or Hopkins here after all. How many family medicine applicants did they get the last few years? What was their unmatched rate last year? LMAO any FMG grad from any scrub caribbean school could walk into those residency slots no questions asked.

I have several different jobs.
the 2 with residents are well known trauma ctrs. and neither had open slots last yr.
my solo gig does not have residents.

 

[DocNusum]

Where have you seen a medic course that is only 6 months long?

If you have already completed a 120hr EMT-B course...

Emergency Medical Technician Paramedic - 624.00 Hours
40hrs per week x 52 weeks = 2080hrs
624.00 hrs/40hrs per week = 15.6 wks.
15 weeks = ~ 4 months (extended to 6-7 months completing clinicals)
This meets NHTSA requirements

6 Month EMT-P programs have been around for decades.
Here are but a few;

Arapahoe Community College
Harrisburg Area Community College
McCook Community College
UNM School of Medicine
Pelham
UW-Wisconsin
Crowder College
University of Iowa


There are even 10-12 week EMT-B to EMT-P courses...
I have seen both extremes of paramedics come from accelerated courses -- really good to really scary. BUT on the flip side of that coin, I have also seen the same come from the 1-2yr courses. So save your 'noise' about the "quality" of students that attend/complete these programs.

The simple FACT of the matter seems to be that substandard performers graduate from ALL forms of healthcare training at ALL levels of care from 1 week first responder programs to 4 yr MD/DO programs after a 3-5yr residency. It really boils down to the individual... not the method. [/SIZE][/I]


Now consider the 2 week... RN/MD/DO to EMT-P course at Creighton University

DocNusum, former EMT-B/I/P, current FNP/PA-C, heretic & kafirun

P.s... Sorry for the "high-jack"...

 

[AegriSomnia]

I don't know where you got the 640 hour requirement for a NHTSA 1998 paramedic curriculum but they state that it is expected to be 1000-1200 hours in addition to the 120 for the basic EMT training.

This is directly from NHTSA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/ems/emt-p/disk_1[1]/intro.pdf

Sorry for continuing the highjack...

If you have already completed a 120hr EMT-B course...



6 Month EMT-P programs have been around for decades.
Here are but a few;

Arapahoe Community College
Harrisburg Area Community College
McCook Community College
UNM School of Medicine
Pelham
UW-Wisconsin
Crowder College
University of Iowa


There are even 10-12 week EMT-B to EMT-P courses...
I have seen both extremes of paramedics come from accelerated courses -- really good to really scary. BUT on the flip side of that coin, I have also seen the same come from the 1-2yr courses. So save your 'noise' about the "quality" of students that attend/complete these programs.

The simple FACT of the matter seems to be that substandard performers graduate from ALL forms of healthcare training at ALL levels of care from 1 week first responder programs to 4 yr MD/DO programs after a 3-5yr residency. It really boils down to the individual... not the method. [/SIZE][/I]


Now consider the 2 week... RN/MD/DO to EMT-P course at Creighton University

DocNusum, former EMT-B/I/P, current FNP/PA-C, heretic & kafirun

P.s... Sorry for the "high-jack"...

 

[dokmark]

I tend to agree, however what you are missing is that this is just an "entry point" ploy. After a couple of years, they will water down the requirements and it will magically go from 3 years to 2 years to 18 months, you get the picture.

LECOM (just like most DO programs) is all about the $$$. They would gladly open up a DO school in every city if the AOA would let them get away with it. Considering that the boneheads at AOA have allowed the joke that is Rocky Vista in Colorado to open, I wouldnt put anything past them. The president of the AOA and its executive committee needs a swift kick in the *****.

The accreditation standards require a minimum of 130 weeks of training. APAP is 138 weeks. It can't go much lower than that. As for the thought that this is all about money, no additional slots were awarded for this program. That means LECOM is implementing the program with the loss of the last year of tuition for all of the students involved with no increase in the tuition for the first three years. So at about $27,000 per year, the second lowest private medical school in the country, that means a loss of about $325,000 a year. Doesn't sound like it's all about the money.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

I don't know where you got the 640 hour requirement for a NHTSA 1998 paramedic curriculum but they state that it is expected to be 1000-1200 hours in addition to the 120 for the basic EMT training.

This is directly from NHTSA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/ems/emt-p/disk_1[1]/intro.pdf

Sorry for continuing the highjack...

This hourly requirement is more of a recommendation where you would expect average results from an average student in this time frame. Here is another programme that is about six months long with less than 1,000 hours:

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept29240/files/90946.html

Regarding the original point, I tend to agree with Taurus, at least this is occurring with people who will have experience and background in the sciences. It does open the door for all kinds of crazy stuff however...

 

[Dr Oops]

The accreditation standards require a minimum of 130 weeks of training. APAP is 138 weeks. It can't go much lower than that. As for the thought that this is all about money, no additional slots were awarded for this program. That means LECOM is implementing the program with the loss of the last year of tuition for all of the students involved with no increase in the tuition for the first three years. So at about $27,000 per year, the second lowest private medical school in the country, that means a loss of about $325,000 a year. Doesn't sound like it's all about the money.

they make their money in turnover. 3 years vs the traditional 4 yr student.

 

[millepora]

Are they still requiring Step 1 and Step 2 during the medical school curriculum? If so, that sounds fair.

 

[primadonna22274]

Yes. APAP will still take all 3 steps and are eligible for COMLEX and USMLE (having not been through med school, I am not sure if COMLEX is structured also as Step 1, 2, and 3 like USMLE).
The testing schedule will probably be slightly different for the APAP group here as years 3-4 are condensed. I'm guessing it would be similar to the testing schedule in place for the PCSP which is also a condensed 3 year curriculum...but docmark could chime in here and correct my assumptions.

Are they still requiring Step 1 and Step 2 during the medical school curriculum? If so, that sounds fair.

 

[Taurus]

Yes. APAP will still take all 3 steps and are eligible for COMLEX and USMLE (having not been through med school, I am not sure if COMLEX is structured also as Step 1, 2, and 3 like USMLE).
The testing schedule will probably be slightly different for the APAP group here as years 3-4 are condensed. I'm guessing it would be similar to the testing schedule in place for the PCSP which is also a condensed 3 year curriculum...but docmark could chime in here and correct my assumptions.

If you still have to do the 2 years of basic sciences, I would imagine that you take step 1 after those 2 years like traditional medical students. Third year is where it gets tricky. You probably have to do the same core clerkships like traditional medical students. I don't see how you can escape from doing the core clerkships. If you look across medical schools, there are variations in format and structure how they teach the basic sciences and even fourth year is variable. But the bedrock of all medical schools is the core third year clerkships. For your entire residency application, your third year core clerkship grades and step 1 scores are the most important by far. That's how residencies can compare apples to apples for the most part. But when do you get to go on interviews? During third year? When do you take step 2 (required by all residencies before you can start)? During third year too? This schedule would be career suicide. Most medical students take the equivalent of 2-3 months off during fourth year just to do interviews. Most take step 2 in the fourth year as well (earliest is usually July if you're trying to impress programs or make up for a lousy step 1 showing). Unless you're only interested in the least competitive specialties and programs, finishing in 3 years and getting into a nice residency is very, very difficult. Therefore, most savvy bridge students probably will graduate in 3 years and then use the following year off to apply to residencies. Again, the bridge student is disadvantaged because the traditional medical student can use all 4 years to not only complete the basic sciences and the third year core clerkships but to also do sub-I's (very important for surgery and top programs in other fields) and research (several do an extra year of research on top of the 4 years). Unless you're a well-known and accomplished PA, ie, core0, in the area you're interested in (connections, research publications, presentations, etc), this bridge isn't as great as many think it is. You may be saving yourself a year's worth of tuition money, but it will cost you in the long run. Remember that for most students fourth year medical school is like a long vacation. Mine was. Sorry to throw some cold water but this is the reality.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

DocNusum, former EMT-B/I/P, currrent RN, FNP/PA-C

That's a lot of letters you've got there.

 

[primadonna22274]

Thanks Taurus...I have thought about these things. I am well-connected though so a little less concerned about matching...not UNconcerned, but less so. I work in academic medicine now (teach in a PA program at well-respected regional research university) and have plenty of contacts elsewhere. I haven't yet figured out how it all plays out because I haven't seen the schema, and nobody has done it yet. Still, I think it would be exciting to be part of the new wave

Also very glad to have your support on this. I think this would be one way to circumvent the DNP takeover...physician-led teams of PAs who already know how to work together and know one another's talents & limitations.

I think you're probably correct on step 1...on one of these threads the APAP director mentioned the PA-DO student would do all of year 1, then 8 wk clinical core, then back for year 2. Then I imagine step 1. Then year 3 and at the end of that is step 2? Not sure. When do you usually take step 3? Just before graduation? Not sure how that would work then. I'll find out....

Hope all is well with you.

L.

If you still have to do the 2 years of basic sciences, I would imagine that you take step 1 after those 2 years like traditional medical students. Third year is where it gets tricky. You probably have to do the same core clerkships like traditional medical students. I don't see how you can escape from doing the core clerkships. If you look across medical schools, there are variations in format and structure how they teach the basic sciences and even fourth year is variable. But the bedrock of all medical schools is the core third year clerkships. For your entire residency application, your third year core clerkship grades and step 1 scores are the most important by far. That's how residencies can compare apples to apples for the most part. But when do you get to go on interviews? During third year? When do you take step 2 (required by all residencies before you can start)? During third year too? This schedule would be career suicide. Most medical students take the equivalent of 2-3 months off during fourth year just to do interviews. Most take step 2 in the fourth year as well (earliest is usually July if you're trying to impress programs or make up for a lousy step 1 showing). Unless you're only interested in the least competitive specialties and programs, finishing in 3 years and getting into a nice residency is very, very difficult. Therefore, most savvy bridge students probably will graduate in 3 years and then use the following year off to apply to residencies. Again, the bridge student is disadvantaged because the traditional medical student can use all 4 years to not only complete the basic sciences and the third year core clerkships but to also do sub-I's (very important for surgery and top programs in other fields) and research (several do an extra year of research on top of the 4 years). Unless you're a well-known and accomplished PA, ie, core0, in the area you're interested in (connections, research publications, presentations, etc), this bridge isn't as great as many think it is. You may be saving yourself a year's worth of tuition money, but it will cost you in the long run. Remember that for most students fourth year medical school is like a long vacation. Mine was. Sorry to throw some cold water but this is the reality.

 

[DocNusum]

That's a lot of letters you've got there.

Yeah... there are others...
I only listed those to demonstrate that I, along with many others here have "Been there & Done that... got the t-shirt and moved on" and therefore we are speaking based upon actual training, licensing and experience in the area being discussed versus the usual "speculation" based upon emotive/ego criteria that usually tends to cloud the disscusion.

It was a attempt to try and circumvent the back and forth about the training and qualifications of EMTs from basic to paramedic versus that of RNs... guess it didn't work.

Anywhoo...

For a long time, EMEDPA and others here has been stating that MD/DO school is typically ~ 130 weeks whereas PA school is ~ 116 weeks. The implication of these numbers seem to be that its NOT the 15 week difference but the residency (OJT) that makes a difference.

I find this quote interesting:

Remember that for most students fourth year medical school is like a long vacation. Mine was. Sorry to throw some cold water but this is the reality.

This is interesting simply because this would add credence to the notion that in its current iteration, MD/DO school is really only 3 yrs long with some summers off. What is odd is that whenever a PA/NP states this... its looked at as heresay...

Just a few thoughts...

DocNusum

 

[Taurus]

This is interesting simply because this would add credence to the notion that in its current iteration, MD/DO school is really only 3 yrs long with some summers off. What is odd is that whenever a PA/NP states this... its looked at as heresay...

I say it tongue in cheek. 4th year is what you make of it. During 4th year, nearly all med schools require at least 1 sub-I and a bunch of various rotations such as ICU, emergency medicine, etc. Many med students (in order to prepare for internship) go beyond the basic requirements. If you're going into internal medicine for example, most of them I know did at least 2 sub-I's and rotations in cards, GI, heme/onc, nephro, etc. If you're aiming really high, you may do 4-5 sub-I's. That schedule is no picnic. Med schools understand that you need time to do interviews so they give you a lot of elective time during 4th year. You schedule the easy electives and your vacation time during interview season. For me, I despised clinical medicine. So I did 3 month-long electives in rads. Let's just say they don't call radiology, "radio-holiday," for nothing. Keep in mind that you get only 10 weeks off between MS1 and MS2 (which most use to do research), 2-4 weeks vacation time during 4th year (which you use for interviews), and 1 week off between Christmas's and New Year's during your entire 4 years of medical school. I hardly consider that 3 years only.

Medical school makes the academic because you learn the science but it's residency that makes the physician because that's where you learn the art of medicine.

 

[DocNusum]

I say it tongue in cheek. 4th year is what you make of it... [brevity edit]... I hardly consider that 3 years only.

Ummm...

116 weeks/52 = 2.230 yrs

140 weeks/52 = 2.692 yrs
150 weeks/52 = 2.884 yrs
160 weeks/52 = 3.076 yrs

Medical school makes the academic because you learn the science but it's residency that makes the physician because that's where you learn the art of medicine.

For sure....

 

[psychbender]

Anywhoo...

For a long time, EMEDPA and others here has been stating that MD/DO school is typically ~ 130 weeks whereas PA school is ~ 116 weeks. The implication of these numbers seem to be that its NOT the 15 week difference but the residency (OJT) that makes a difference.

I find this quote interesting:


This is interesting simply because this would add credence to the notion that in its current iteration, MD/DO school is really only 3 yrs long with some summers off. What is odd is that whenever a PA/NP states this... its looked at as heresay...

Just a few thoughts...

DocNusum

You know, I've read EMEDPA bring this up before, and I really want to know where this 130 week number is coming from. Even factoring out time off for interviews/vacation in fourth year, my school ended up about 166 weeks for all four academic years (88 weeks preclinical, 78 clinical). We had two months off in 4th year for interviews/vacation, one month between 3rd and 4th years for vacation/Step 2, one month between 2nd and 3rd year for vacation/Step 1, and a week or two between blocks through 1st and 2nd years.

 

[Socrates25]

For a long time, EMEDPA and others here has been stating that MD/DO school is typically ~ 130 weeks whereas PA school is ~ 116 weeks.

Yeah because emedpa and you are such well known experts on the details of medical school curricula. Cite your source, please.

P.S. No, emedpa is NOT a source.