PA cramping my style...

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kdburton

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One of the attending surgeons at the hospital I'm rotating at has a PA who scrubs in on most of his cases. Usually they are simple things like PEG tubes, trachs, I&Ds, etc, but anyways this PA pretty much does the whole case while the attending "supervises." Meanwhile theres usually a surgery intern and a medical student (me in some cases) scrubbed in who would like to get our hands dirty too since we're still learning obviously. Its kind of annoying because a resident and medical student are expected to cover all the general surgery cases and then follow the patients afterwards - even in the cases where the PA does everything in the OR. Furthermore when there is something to follow up on (i.e. a CXR too look for a pneumo after mediport insertion) the PA doesn't follow up at all. I realize that he is a "mid-level provider" but you gotta reap what you sew. Basically it annoys me because this guy is done with his training already yet when there are ppl scrubbed in who are still training (students/residents) he completely disregards them. Anyone else have a problem like this? And, if so, how do you deal with it? From what I can tell there are no other surgeons at this teaching hospital who have PAs that come in and do this.
 
What would be the difference if it were the attending doing the surgery?
 
What would be the difference if it were the attending doing the surgery?

There is a difference. There's two sides to the resident/attending deal in surgery.

I've never heard of someone letting a midlevel do entire cases, that's ridiculous if true. Plus it's medicare fraud if he's billing for the PA.

Depends on how much of your rotation he makes up. If he's a tiny part of it just avoid his room. If he's a big part of it talk to your course director, who may just pull students off or have you not work with him. The surgery program director can also pull interns but that's less likely.
 
One of the attending surgeons at the hospital I'm rotating at has a PA who scrubs in on most of his cases. Usually they are simple things like PEG tubes, trachs, I&Ds, etc, but anyways this PA pretty much does the whole case while the attending "supervises." Meanwhile theres usually a surgery intern and a medical student (me in some cases) scrubbed in who would like to get our hands dirty too since we're still learning obviously. Its kind of annoying because a resident and medical student are expected to cover all the general surgery cases and then follow the patients afterwards - even in the cases where the PA does everything in the OR. Furthermore when there is something to follow up on (i.e. a CXR too look for a pneumo after mediport insertion) the PA doesn't follow up at all. I realize that he is a "mid-level provider" but you gotta reap what you sew. Basically it annoys me because this guy is done with his training already yet when there are ppl scrubbed in who are still training (students/residents) he completely disregards them. Anyone else have a problem like this? And, if so, how do you deal with it? From what I can tell there are no other surgeons at this teaching hospital who have PAs that come in and do this.


Housestaff coverage of one's patient's is in return for operative teaching and surgical education of the folks who are doing the patient care. If the attending is not teaching in the OR, then he/she can cover their own patients on the wards. The PA is not your problem, the attending is your problem. Your choices are to let this ride as you will be off the rotation soon or let your rotation director know that there isn't much learning going on with this attending and let him/her take care of this.
 
It's an annoying situation, but there's not a lot you can do. Rest assured that the most you'll get to do scrubbed on a case as a med student is usually retraction or suturing closed a wound. I think the first thing you should do is privately talk to your attending about what's going on. Say you are interested in surgery and you would like to get more involved in cases. If that doesn't work, you might want to talk to the course director, but I doubt there is much he can do to help you out, aside from transferring you to a different site. Definitely leave negative comments in your attending's course evaluations. Hopefully this will make the situation a little better for future students.
 
cpants raises a great point. The resident should be far more annoyed since all we do is watch or retract for the most part, unless there is reason to allow more hands on experience.
 
Agree with the above posters- as a med student, you have no say.
 
I had this issue on my cardiac surgery rotation. One attending in particular had a PA who had been working with him for many years, and they were like a well-oiled machine when it came to CABGs. The PA would harvest the saphenous (often with the scope) while the fellow would open the chest with the med student as an assist. When it was time to go on pump and begin the graft, the attending would appear and take over the case with the fellow as first assist. Then the PA would sew up the leg and assist when needed. After the sternotomy (where all you're doing is retracting anyway) and perhaps the canulation of the vessels (where you got to hold the heart out of the way), you were pretty much useless. The PA did her thing, the surgeons did theirs, and you were just there to watch. There was NO WAY IN HELL they were going to let me harvest a saphenous, or sew up a leg, because that would slow down their well-oiled machine. To them, efficiency = rapid turnover = $$$$. Teaching be damned. It should've clued me in that there were never other residents or sub-Is in this particular attending's OR.

After my 4th or 5th CABG with him, I wised up. I stopped going to these cases because they were low-yield and all I did was stand around anyway. I'd rather be standing over the shoulder of an attending doing a MV or AV or LVAD - I might not get to do much, but at least they would acknowledge my presence and actually attempt to teach me something. The straw that broke the camel's back was my 3rd day in the OR with him - I'd already introduced myself several times (met with an indifferent grunt), and stood next to him for 2 hours of a case...during which he turned to me and called me a man's name while asking me to answer his pager (mind you, I was still scrubbed in at the time). I looked at him blankly, and said, "my name is LadyWolverine." I never went in to his OR again. I suggest you do the same.
 
One of the attending surgeons at the hospital I'm rotating at has a PA who scrubs in on most of his cases. Usually they are simple things like PEG tubes, trachs, I&Ds, etc, but anyways this PA pretty much does the whole case while the attending "supervises." Meanwhile theres usually a surgery intern and a medical student (me in some cases) scrubbed in who would like to get our hands dirty too since we're still learning obviously. Its kind of annoying because a resident and medical student are expected to cover all the general surgery cases and then follow the patients afterwards - even in the cases where the PA does everything in the OR. Furthermore when there is something to follow up on (i.e. a CXR too look for a pneumo after mediport insertion) the PA doesn't follow up at all. I realize that he is a "mid-level provider" but you gotta reap what you sew. Basically it annoys me because this guy is done with his training already yet when there are ppl scrubbed in who are still training (students/residents) he completely disregards them. Anyone else have a problem like this? And, if so, how do you deal with it? From what I can tell there are no other surgeons at this teaching hospital who have PAs that come in and do this.

This is in New York? Weird.....
 
I had a weird situation like this in surgery, but more with the fellow I worked with who wouldn't even let me pick up patient charts or even had the suction to the attending during OR, even when he wanted me to. My advice would be to contact the surgery director for the rotation. I did and they were pretty responsive with talking to the attending. Doesn't happen all the time, but if you put it in a way where you show how much it detracts from your learning, I think he or she will be more responsive. I also went out of my way to work with other attendings who were more receptive to students and didn't work with my particular fellow. If you show you are really enthusiastic and passionate about what you're working on, I think it becomes apparent to the attendings who do look out for students. One of the responsive attendings I worked with let me operate the laproscopic camera, make large skin incisions and a couple other things. You never know!
 
That sucks....we have one private practice hospital in the system where (fortunately) we spend very little time and this has been a problem. We don't even try to scrub those cases....those attendings can rot.

What really blows is when you take call you have to cover those PA run services....talk about getting dumped on. The PA will sign out to you at like 2pm and ask you to do 90% of their day time floor work...including writing discharge summaries.
 
I looked at him blankly, and said, "my name is LadyWolverine."

Quite an interesting name -- did you get made fun of a lot growing up?
 
So far I've essentially been just trying to scrub in with different attendings and it appears to be working out rather well. I may say something to the clerkship director towards the end, but I have a feeling that this may be resolved after I leave anyways because it appears at this hospital the PAs rotate on a monthly basis to different surgical services and some of them have no desire to be in the OR or little experience. I've only got a couple wks left anyways
 
So far I've essentially been just trying to scrub in with different attendings and it appears to be working out rather well. I may say something to the clerkship director towards the end, but I have a feeling that this may be resolved after I leave anyways because it appears at this hospital the PAs rotate on a monthly basis to different surgical services and some of them have no desire to be in the OR or little experience. I've only got a couple wks left anyways

Still better to talk to you attending. Sure you might get better experience just working with others, but don't forget that the original attending is the one who grades you. He might not take your avoidance well.
 
Still better to talk to you attending. Sure you might get better experience just working with others, but don't forget that the original attending is the one who grades you. He might not take your avoidance well.

Not necessarily. At my school, if you are on a service with multiple attendings, you are allowed to select the attending who will evaluate you at the end of the month. That way, you can make sure your grade is given by the attending who knows you the best.
 
That sucks....we have one private practice hospital in the system where (fortunately) we spend very little time and this has been a problem. We don't even try to scrub those cases....those attendings can rot.

What really blows is when you take call you have to cover those PA run services....talk about getting dumped on. The PA will sign out to you at like 2pm and ask you to do 90% of their day time floor work...including writing discharge summaries.

I had a similar situation on a rotation. The biggest problem was that my resident was so cranky from getting dumped on that he wan't much fun to be around. I totally understood why he was upset but it wasn't a pleasant rotation to say the least.
 
wtf

you have no style for them to cramp

youre a med student ffs

deal with it
 
wtf

you have no style for them to cramp

youre a med student ffs

deal with it

To a certain extent you are right. You have to know your place, and you aren't going to get to first assist on many if any cases. That said, you are paying a buttload of money to get an education, and if you don't feel that you are getting a good education, you should advocate for yourself to make sure that happens. Standing in the corner of the OR and writing discharge summaries all afternoon is not acceptable.
 
To a certain extent you are right. You have to know your place, and you aren't going to get to first assist on many if any cases. That said, you are paying a buttload of money to get an education, and if you don't feel that you are getting a good education, you should advocate for yourself to make sure that happens. Standing in the corner of the OR and writing discharge summaries all afternoon is not acceptable.

👍 no one else cares about you so you better stand up for yourself
 
Would anyone miss if you just didn't show up to the case?

I've been in this situation, and I've often opted to not scrub. You can something along these lines: "I know there won't be a lot of room for me to stand near the operating field, so I am planning to watch the case from the anesthesiologist's vantage point."

Unless you definitely want to be a surgeon, I would enjoy the fact that you don't have to do anything.

On a somewhat related note, some PA's are scary. Or perhaps I should say that it's sometimes scary the leeway that attendings give their PA's. For having only two years of post-graduate school/training, they are sure allowed to do a lot.

I think you're more likely to impress your attending by having a grasp of what's happening on the floor than trying to stick your nose into a PEG tube placement.
 
On a somewhat related note, some PA's are scary. Or perhaps I should say that it's sometimes scary the leeway that attendings give their PA's. For having only two years of post-graduate school/training, they are sure allowed to do a lot.

It's not PAs, it's private practice. In places without PAs I've seen pp attendings let RN nurses do things that they'd get fired for letting a nurse do in an academic center. The degree of supervision we see in academics is often a lot higher than out in practice.
 
It's not PAs, it's private practice. In places without PAs I've seen pp attendings let RN nurses do things that they'd get fired for letting a nurse do in an academic center. The degree of supervision we see in academics is often a lot higher than out in practice.

For surgery some RNs are trained as RN first assists so they can actually help the surgeons a fair deal. The surgeon is doing most of the case but compared to what interns are often given to do there's not really that much of a difference.

I honestly think in these cases where there's an RNFA or PA helping the physician there shouldn't be a resident scrubbed in. I've seen RNFA's and PA's at academic centers, and yes they were working for affiliated academic physicians (but not all the cases). I think for some stuff the attending just wants someone they've worked with for years and years to come help them with since they can count on that person whereas with the resident it's a crapshoot.

Point is, either scrub another case or something. I'm actually pretty confused why the resident is there at all if they're being used as a 2nd assist at best-they should go find a case where they get to do more and let the med student do 2nd assist stuff.
 
For surgery some RNs are trained as RN first assists so they can actually help the surgeons a fair deal. The surgeon is doing most of the case but compared to what interns are often given to do there's not really that much of a difference.

No, I mean on the floors. I've seen/heard of attendings having nurses do some crazy stuff when they get called at home and there's no resident to cover, things that would never fly in an academic center. Just a different set of rules once you're out of tertiary care.
 
On a somewhat related note, some PA's are scary. Or perhaps I should say that it's sometimes scary the leeway that attendings give their PA's. For having only two years of post-graduate school/training, they are sure allowed to do a lot.

Clearly you know nothing about our training.
 
Man, you've been indoctrinated well! Keep it up when you're an attending.

Well, perhaps the way in which it was said was a bit brusque, but the point was somewhat apt.

As a medical student, the point of your surgery rotation is to learn things about the care of a surgical patient, the diagnosis of a surgical patient, and the hospitalization of a surgical patient. You are not there to learn how to do surgical procedures. The boards have no questions regarding the steps of various procedures... however you are asked about management of post-op patients, potential diagnoses based on presentation etc.

So scrubbing in on surgeries is not where the education for medical students comes from (that's on the floors and the clinics). The OR is just the gravy... the fun stuff, the part that keeps your hands busy and gives you good stories to tell your friends.

Would it be nice if the attending let you get your hands sterilely dirty during the cases? Sure. Should you feel entitled to it? Definitely not. The intern on the other hand should be furious because they do have RRC requirements to fulfill, and the inservice exam does test on procedural steps.
 
Clearly you know nothing about our training.

Clearly, neither do you. You're still in your didactic years.

I didn't understand at all what it was like to be a 3rd or 4th year medical student, or what clinical training was actually like, until I was there. It's funny to hear people run their mouths about how advanced or rigorous their "training" is when they haven't even gotten there yet. I am 2 rotations away from graduation, and will have more training in clinical medicine and surgery than someone graduating from PA school. And I am completely humbled by the training of my colleages in surgical residencies, and the abilities of my surgical attendings. There is a reason that surgical residency is as long and as grueling as it is. There are no shortcuts.

On my surgical rotations (cardiac, gen surg, colorectal, etc.), the role of the PA in the operating room was usually to carry out the highly repetitive tasks that the attending surgeon or fellow did not have the time nor the desire to do. They were there to increase efficiency, to limit the amount of time per patient in the OR, so that turnover was faster. They performed tasks that take a little while to learn, but once you've repeated it enough times, it's relatively straightforward and difficult to screw up or seriously hurt the patient. Occasionally the PA would function as first- or second-assist, but since I mostly rotated at academic centers, usually the fellow or senior resident served this capacity. At the community hospital where I rotated there was a PA who would occasionally assist in the OR, but he was usually upstairs doing floor work. Also, he worked 40 hours a week - not the 80+ that the residents and attendings did, so I rarely saw him in the OR.

In my experience with PAs in the operating room, they were all very competent at what they did, especially the cardiac surgery PAs. They sped up the efficiency of the procedure and certainly helped out the attending's bottom line ($$$). And I'm sure that the fellow didn't mind because that meant one less saphenous vein he had to harvest, and one less leg to close - he could then spend all his time in the chest. However, the cardiac surgery PAs were terrible at teaching residents and medical students, and carried themselves with a perpetual air of superiority - probably because having medical students performing tasks that were usually delegated to them slows down the efficiency of the process. I get it - it's annoying to have someone pick their way through something you could do in half the time. I guess it's easy to forget that we were all students once, and that you have to learn sometime. Especially when $$ is at stake. But at an academic center, it should be understood by the attending that cash flow need to take a backseat to education at times. Clearly, this is lost on some of the cardiac surgeons at my institution, as well as their PAs.
 
Clearly you know nothing about our training.

Yeah I hate to burst your bubble but all of the month-away-from-graduation type PA-S's I worked with on surgery rotations were at best at the technical ability level of the typical MS3 when it comes to actual procedural tasks. Most MS4s with an interest in surgery were much better. While it's true that many PAs are allowed to do a lot --both on the floor and in the OR, they are decidedly NOT doing vein harvests solo and acting as a super-efficient first assist right out of school. After spending perhaps a year with a cardiac surgery group, being trained by those surgeons to do the vein harvests, sure, but you ain't mastering those types of things in your 1 clinical year as a PA-S. Your ability to do these things is not conferred by your PA curriculum, it's conferred by whatever on the job training you happen to get after you leave school.
 
Well, perhaps the way in which it was said was a bit brusque, but the point was somewhat apt.

As a medical student, the point of your surgery rotation is to learn things about the care of a surgical patient, the diagnosis of a surgical patient, and the hospitalization of a surgical patient. You are not there to learn how to do surgical procedures. The boards have no questions regarding the steps of various procedures... however you are asked about management of post-op patients, potential diagnoses based on presentation etc.

So scrubbing in on surgeries is not where the education for medical students comes from (that's on the floors and the clinics). The OR is just the gravy... the fun stuff, the part that keeps your hands busy and gives you good stories to tell your friends.

Would it be nice if the attending let you get your hands sterilely dirty during the cases? Sure. Should you feel entitled to it? Definitely not. The intern on the other hand should be furious because they do have RRC requirements to fulfill, and the inservice exam does test on procedural steps.

Actually I still have clinic just as often as the residents and I still round with the whole team each morning. Pre-call days the students get first dibs on which operations they want to scrub in on and are expected to see as much as they can in the OR. Your 3rd year surgical rotation must include a chance to get in the OR and hopefully get to work with your hands (even if the most you ever get to do is something simple like closing skin), because you need that kind of an experience to make a decision about what you want to do with your life. If you just saw patients in clinic and in the S/TICU all day you might not realize that you like surgery because you never got to see what its like in the OR. Its true that the residents have requirements to fulfill and thus need to be in the OR for certain cases, but they don't need to drive the camera during a lap chole and they certainly don't need to retract on mechanically tough cases. Just because the stuff you get pimped on and learn in the OR isn't on the shelf exam/boards doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn it. As a matter of fact, based on the diseases/conditions I see on the shelf and those I end up seeing on the wards 90% the stuff I know when I'm taking the shelf is because I read it in a book and not because I learned it in the hospital. You shouldn't discount experiences you get on the rotation simply because they won't show up as answers on the exam at the end
 
Actually I still have clinic just as often as the residents and I still round with the whole team each morning. Pre-call days the students get first dibs on which operations they want to scrub in on and are expected to see as much as they can in the OR. Your 3rd year surgical rotation must include a chance to get in the OR and hopefully get to work with your hands (even if the most you ever get to do is something simple like closing skin), because you need that kind of an experience to make a decision about what you want to do with your life. If you just saw patients in clinic and in the S/TICU all day you might not realize that you like surgery because you never got to see what its like in the OR. Its true that the residents have requirements to fulfill and thus need to be in the OR for certain cases, but they don't need to drive the camera during a lap chole and they certainly don't need to retract on mechanically tough cases. Just because the stuff you get pimped on and learn in the OR isn't on the shelf exam/boards doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn it. As a matter of fact, based on the diseases/conditions I see on the shelf and those I end up seeing on the wards 90% the stuff I know when I'm taking the shelf is because I read it in a book and not because I learned it in the hospital. You shouldn't discount experiences you get on the rotation simply because they won't show up as answers on the exam at the end

I agree. Whether or not you like the OR will largely affect your decision to become a surgeon. Surgery is after all about the surgery. It seems pretty important to get some experience in the OR for that reason alone.

Plus, if you don't become a surgeon, OR experience will help you to understand what you're referring your patients for. Ultimately, the procedure is at the surgeon's discretion, but setting off that warning shot of what might happen is probably a good thing for patients.
 
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Plus, if you don't become a surgeon, OR experience will help you to understand what you're referring your patients for. Ultimately, the procedure is at the surgeon's discretion, but setting off that warning shot of what might happen is probably a good thing for patients.

Not just "probably" a good thing - it IS a good thing. When I see patients for pre-op clearance, I get grilled on the details. "How long will my incision be?" "How long does this procedure typically take?" "How do they clean off the area? How do I know it won't get infected?" Sure, the surgeon has probably gone over this in detail with the patient, but they like to get hear it again from someone else.
 
Clearly, neither do you. You're still in your didactic years.

I didn't understand at all what it was like to be a 3rd or 4th year medical student, or what clinical training was actually like, until I was there. It's funny to hear people run their mouths about how advanced or rigorous their "training" is when they haven't even gotten there yet. I am 2 rotations away from graduation, and will have more training in clinical medicine and surgery than someone graduating from PA school. And I am completely humbled by the training of my colleages in surgical residencies, and the abilities of my surgical attendings. There is a reason that surgical residency is as long and as grueling as it is. There are no shortcuts.

On my surgical rotations (cardiac, gen surg, colorectal, etc.), the role of the PA in the operating room was usually to carry out the highly repetitive tasks that the attending surgeon or fellow did not have the time nor the desire to do. They were there to increase efficiency, to limit the amount of time per patient in the OR, so that turnover was faster. They performed tasks that take a little while to learn, but once you've repeated it enough times, it's relatively straightforward and difficult to screw up or seriously hurt the patient. Occasionally the PA would function as first- or second-assist, but since I mostly rotated at academic centers, usually the fellow or senior resident served this capacity. At the community hospital where I rotated there was a PA who would occasionally assist in the OR, but he was usually upstairs doing floor work. Also, he worked 40 hours a week - not the 80+ that the residents and attendings did, so I rarely saw him in the OR.

In my experience with PAs in the operating room, they were all very competent at what they did, especially the cardiac surgery PAs. They sped up the efficiency of the procedure and certainly helped out the attending's bottom line ($$$). And I'm sure that the fellow didn't mind because that meant one less saphenous vein he had to harvest, and one less leg to close - he could then spend all his time in the chest. However, the cardiac surgery PAs were terrible at teaching residents and medical students, and carried themselves with a perpetual air of superiority - probably because having medical students performing tasks that were usually delegated to them slows down the efficiency of the process. I get it - it's annoying to have someone pick their way through something you could do in half the time. I guess it's easy to forget that we were all students once, and that you have to learn sometime. Especially when $$ is at stake. But at an academic center, it should be understood by the attending that cash flow need to take a backseat to education at times. Clearly, this is lost on some of the cardiac surgeons at my institution, as well as their PAs.

What are you even talking about? The whole entire point of my post was that it is offensive for someone (IM Substance P) to imply that PAs don't even belong in the OR and that they shouldn't even be allowed to perform the tasks the MS saw the PA performing. I have no idea why you went on a diatribe about knowing more than PA students or PAs. That's whole freaking point! You're supposed to know more than I do! If you didn't get more training than me I would be highly concerned as it is your job to hire/supervise and collaborate with me. The whole point is, why is someone saying "wow, PAs only have 2 years of training, why are they allowed to do anything in the OR at all?" We have enough generalist medical training to do anything our SP delegates to us and have the degree and certs to prove it.

Pee Ess: I may be 2 months away from clinical rotations but that doesn't make me completely ignorant as to what goes on in the rotations. I've talked to enough upper level students and have received the clinical objective sheets for my rotations to know what we will be expected to do and know on rotations. Anyone who says "they sure are allowed to do alot" really has no idea what PA education is like, I don't see how that fact can be refuted.
 
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What are you even talking about? The whole entire point of my post was that it is offensive for someone (IM Substance P) to imply that PAs don't even belong in the OR and that they shouldn't even be allowed to perform the tasks the MS saw the PA performing. I have no idea why you went on a diatribe about knowing more than PA students or PAs. That's whole freaking point! You're supposed to know more than I do! If you didn't get more training than me I would be highly concerned as it is your job to hire/supervise and collaborate with me. The whole point is, why is someone saying "wow, PAs only have 2 years of training, why are they allowed to do anything in the OR at all?" We have enough generalist medical training to do anything our SP delegates to us and have the degree and certs to prove it.

Pee Ess: I may be 2 months away from clinical rotations but that doesn't make me completely ignorant as to what goes on in the rotations. I've talked to enough upper level students and have received the clinical objective sheets for my rotations to know what we will be expected to do and know on rotations. Anyone who says "they sure are allowed to do alot" really has no idea what PA education is like, I don't see how that fact can be refuted.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the quote you got all defensive about:
some PA's are scary. Or perhaps I should say that it's sometimes scary the leeway that attendings give their PA's. For having only two years of post-graduate school/training, they are sure allowed to do a lot.

This is one person's opinion based on one person's experience. The fact is, this opinion and experience is not rare because the fact is that some attendings do give too much autonomy to PA's (according to accepted standards of practice and you know...the law).

Unless your contention is that PA's should be able to do whatever they want, you can't argue this point. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and some people cross it. That's not good. PA's are fantastic resources in the appropriate capacity, and potentially dangerous/scary beyond that capacity.

Edit: on a related note, is anyone else sick of midlevels on SDN getting all huffy and defensive any time someone suggests they're in any way less than a doctor? They do this constantly - someone says something pretty harmless (and pretty true) like the above quote, and some PA or NP or whatever comes in and gets all defensive...saying simultaneously making a big scene about how they KNOW they aren't a doctor but then extol how thin the line is between them and a doctor and how they're so super competent at pretty much everything.

Look at the posts above, and look at a LOT of the posts from medical students - everyone saying "listen, as a medical student/resident you have to know your place and don't get too big for your britches" and guess what? We all agree - as medical students/residents we are inferior to attendings and should know our place. Everyone's on board. There's a team, there's a hierarchy, there's a training and experience difference, and we respect that. But suggest to a midlevel that they should "know their place" and all of a sudden you're an elitist arrogant jerk. We should all know our place, and that means being honest about where the line is. The quote you got all defensive about is an example of someone (attending & PA alike) violating that line.
 
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I see absolutely nothing wrong with the quote you got all defensive about:
some PA's are scary. Or perhaps I should say that it's sometimes scary the leeway that attendings give their PA's. For having only two years of post-graduate school/training, they are sure allowed to do a lot.

This is one person's opinion based on one person's experience. The fact is, this opinion and experience is not rare because the fact is that some attendings do give too much autonomy to PA's (according to accepted standards of practice and you know...the law).

Unless your contention is that PA's should be able to do whatever they want, you can't argue this point. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and some people cross it. That's not good. PA's are fantastic resources in the appropriate capacity, and potentially dangerous/scary beyond that capacity.

Edit: on a related note, is anyone else sick of midlevels on SDN getting all huffy and defensive any time someone suggests they're in any way less than a doctor? They do this constantly - someone says something pretty harmless (and pretty true) like the above quote, and some PA or NP or whatever comes in and gets all defensive...saying simultaneously making a big scene about how they KNOW they aren't a doctor but then extol how thin the line is between them and a doctor and how they're so super competent at pretty much everything.

Look at the posts above, and look at a LOT of the posts from medical students - everyone saying "listen, as a medical student/resident you have to know your place and don't get too big for your britches" and guess what? We all agree - as medical students/residents we are inferior to attendings and should know our place. Everyone's on board. There's a team, there's a hierarchy, there's a training and experience difference, and we respect that. But suggest to a midlevel that they should "know their place" and all of a sudden you're an elitist arrogant jerk. We should all know our place, and that means being honest about where the line is. The quote you got all defensive about is an example of someone (attending & PA alike) violating that line.

Sigh... I'm not getting all "defensive" because someone is suggesting that PAs are "less" than doctors. I'm angry because someone insinuated PAs have no place being in the OR. And where is the "line?"--as far I know about PA practice, the PA can perform ANY task that is delegated to them by the Supervising Physician. I don't know what imaginary line you think exists. It is different for every PA and PA-MD/DO team depending on their relationship, knowledge, skills, etc. People are insinuating that PAs are running around doing lots of illegal things with no training. I wouldn't have to react if people didn't post rude/inflammatory/ignorant things about PAs.
 
Sigh... I'm not getting all "defensive" because someone is suggesting that PAs are "less" than doctors. I'm angry because someone insinuated PAs have no place being in the OR. And where is the "line?"--as far I know about PA practice, the PA can perform ANY task that is delegated to them by the Supervising Physician. I don't know what imaginary line you think exists. It is different for every PA and PA-MD/DO team depending on their relationship, knowledge, skills, etc. People are insinuating that PAs are running around doing lots of illegal things with no training. I wouldn't have to react if people didn't post rude/inflammatory/ignorant things about PAs.

No one said or implied PA's have "no place being in the OR". Quote the person who said PA's have "no place being in the OR" if it exists. It doesn't. You just wanted an opportunity to indignantly state the bolded part highlighted above, proving exactly what I predicted was your agenda in the first place.
 
If there is anything medical education has taught me, it is be very explicit with the attending surgeon about who is allowed to work on you in the OR. I'm fine with med students and PA's rounding on me every morning, but when it comes to having my saphenous harvested, I want the big dog. You don't get a discount for having someone with less training do the work. And ladies, if you are getting any kind of gyn procedure done, make sure to specify that you don't want 10 med students doing pelvics on you while you are anesthetized.
 
If there is anything medical education has taught me, it is be very explicit with the attending surgeon about who is allowed to work on you in the OR. I'm fine with med students and PA's rounding on me every morning, but when it comes to having my saphenous harvested, I want the big dog. You don't get a discount for having someone with less training do the work. And ladies, if you are getting any kind of gyn procedure done, make sure to specify that you don't want 10 med students doing pelvics on you while you are anesthetized.

I can certainly understand and respect this viewpoint. However, I have a little bit of a different viewpoint. As someone who is benefitting from a medical education, being allowed to participate in the OR, etc., there's a big part of me that feels like I owe it to future medical students to allow the same leeway. I just think that if I'm not willing to allow trainees to participate in my care, I have no right to participate in care as a trainee. Just another viewpoint 🙂
 
If there is anything medical education has taught me, it is be very explicit with the attending surgeon about who is allowed to work on you in the OR. I'm fine with med students and PA's rounding on me every morning, but when it comes to having my saphenous harvested, I want the big dog. You don't get a discount for having someone with less training do the work. And ladies, if you are getting any kind of gyn procedure done, make sure to specify that you don't want 10 med students doing pelvics on you while you are anesthetized.

Which is why medical students make some of the worst patients....second only to law students.👍
 
I can certainly understand and respect this viewpoint. However, I have a little bit of a different viewpoint. As someone who is benefitting from a medical education, being allowed to participate in the OR, etc., there's a big part of me that feels like I owe it to future medical students to allow the same leeway. I just think that if I'm not willing to allow trainees to participate in my care, I have no right to participate in care as a trainee. Just another viewpoint 🙂

That's very noble.
 
If there is anything medical education has taught me, it is be very explicit with the attending surgeon about who is allowed to work on you in the OR. I'm fine with med students and PA's rounding on me every morning, but when it comes to having my saphenous harvested, I want the big dog. You don't get a discount for having someone with less training do the work. And ladies, if you are getting any kind of gyn procedure done, make sure to specify that you don't want 10 med students doing pelvics on you while you are anesthetized.

Depends what it is. If I cut myself and came into the ED I'd let one of my classmates stitch me up right now (and let a med student do it in the future...however if I knew them I'd probably threaten to give them a bad eval if they didn't do a good job). If I had appendicitis or something similar I'd let the residents do it. If I'm having a big procedure I'd be more picky about who does it.

Totally agree about the EUA though...
 
If there is anything medical education has taught me, it is be very explicit with the attending surgeon about who is allowed to work on you in the OR. I'm fine with med students and PA's rounding on me every morning, but when it comes to having my saphenous harvested, I want the big dog. You don't get a discount for having someone with less training do the work.

I once saw an attending simply decline to operate on someone when they pulled that. His response: "I decide who does what in the OR, period." It was about a 7/10 on the badass scale. It helped he was a world expert in that particular surgery.

If I stayed in academic surgery I'd do the same thing. The Venn diagram of people dictating who's allowed to do what in the OR and people you don't want to be stuck with because you operated on them probably overlap 90%.
 
I once saw an attending simply decline to operate on someone when they pulled that. His response: "I decide who does what in the OR, period." It was about a 7/10 on the badass scale. It helped he was a world expert in that particular surgery.

If I stayed in academic surgery I'd do the same thing. The Venn diagram of people dictating who's allowed to do what in the OR and people you don't want to be stuck with because you operated on them probably overlap 90%.

Yeah, it's part of the territory. If you seek out an expert at an academic institution, you're accepting the fact that he leads a TEAM that will be taking care of you, a team he oversees and conducts. Some of them will be trainees, but he's not going to put a patient in harm's way.

Is it possible that more complications or mistakes will happen when trainees are involved in care? Sure, it's possible, even likely. But forcing him to do 100% of procedures means you're forcing him out of academics because part of his job is to teach and train, forcing him away from his referral base that created his reputation, putting future patients in harm's way (on a macro level) by refusing them valuable experience, and that you don't trust his judgment about who to trust on his own team.
 
I once saw an attending simply decline to operate on someone when they pulled that. His response: "I decide who does what in the OR, period." It was about a 7/10 on the badass scale. It helped he was a world expert in that particular surgery.

If I stayed in academic surgery I'd do the same thing. The Venn diagram of people dictating who's allowed to do what in the OR and people you don't want to be stuck with because you operated on them probably overlap 90%.

I'm sure his response stoked his ego and made him look cool in front of his students, but did he really do the right thing by the patient? The patient consents to what is done in the OR, not the other way around. I'm not saying this really happens, but the attending is actually supposed to explain the roles and get consent for a med student to participate in care in any way.

I'm sure when your attending goes for major surgery he doesn't want the intern first assisting or the med student closing his wounds. It's common sense. I'm not willing to take on extra risk in something as risky as surgery. Med students can interview me and look in my ears all day long, but I'll be damned if they'll be up to their elbows in my abdomen or sewing me shut while practicing sterile technique for the first or second time.
 
I'm sure his response stoked his ego and made him look cool in front of his students, but did he really do the right thing by the patient? The patient consents to what is done in the OR, not the other way around. I'm not saying this really happens, but the attending is actually supposed to explain the roles and get consent for a med student to participate in care in any way.

I'm sure when your attending goes for major surgery he doesn't want the intern first assisting or the med student closing his wounds. It's common sense. I'm not willing to take on extra risk in something as risky as surgery. Med students can interview me and look in my ears all day long, but I'll be damned if they'll be up to their elbows in my abdomen or sewing me shut while practicing sterile technique for the first or second time.

The patient absolutely consents to what is done in the OR, but if they do not consent to it, the surgeon has the right to refuse treatment or recommend they seek care elsewhere, provided it's not an emergency.

Anyway, the ethics of the urban academic center, where poor and uninsured patients act as "practice" for resident physicians, has been long debated. One might ask how we learn at all if we always put the patient first. How could we be allowed to do any procedures at all, knowing that someone out there with more experience does it better...I'd be sending all my port-a-caths to Mass General.

The thing that people don't like is the double standard....as students and residents, we're willing to perform procedures on patients without any ethical dilemma, and we benefit greatly from that experience, but when we require treatment ourselves, we refuse to become the "practice patient" for some know-nothing med student.


As a side note, though, I would recommend that you let the med student scrub your surgery....in my experience, medical students and interns do the best closures....maybe because they're so emotionally invested in that 5cm scar.
 
If there is anything medical education has taught me, it is be very explicit with the attending surgeon about who is allowed to work on you in the OR. I'm fine with med students and PA's rounding on me every morning, but when it comes to having my saphenous harvested, I want the big dog.

So you'd rather the attending, who hasn't harvested saphenous conduit since fellowship (if ever) take vein, than a PA (or other designee, the title isn't important) who has done it thousands of times?
 
So you'd rather the attending, who hasn't harvested saphenous conduit since fellowship (if ever) take vein, than a PA (or other designee, the title isn't important) who has done it thousands of times?
exactly...know who assisted on clinton's cabg?
a PA.
from the description of the procedure:
"THE TEAM: There will be a large team for the operation, led by a head heart surgeon, who will perform the bypass, assisted by a second heart surgeon. An anesthesiologist will tend to Clinton while he is asleep, while a physician assistant harvests veins from the president's leg that will be used to create some of the bypass of the blockages around his heart."
"We are delighted to report that President Clinton's surgery was successful and we expect for him to make a full recovery," said Eric A. Rose, MD, Morris and Rose Milstein, Johnson & Johnson Professor of Surgery and Chairman, Department of Surgery, Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons, Associate Dean for Translational Research, Columbia University Medical Center, and Surgeon-in-Chief, NewYork-Presbyterian/Columbia.

"I want to congratulate our superb cardiothoracic surgical team of physicians, physician assistants, and nurses led by Dr. Craig Smith, Chief of the Division of Cardiothoracic Surgery," Rose continued. "I know that our entire department, along with Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons and NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital, is proud of their work and of the successful result in President Clinton's coronary artery bypass graft surgery."

....clinton( and every president for the last 2 decades or so) has also had an army pa on the white house medical team 24/7 when he was in office.....and know who pulled cheney's bacon out of the fire when he shot someone hunting...the pa who follows the vice president around 24/7....
 
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So you'd rather the attending, who hasn't harvested saphenous conduit since fellowship (if ever) take vein, than a PA (or other designee, the title isn't important) who has done it thousands of times?


Yes, because the attending is qualified, trained and experienced.
 
exactly...know who assisted on clinton's cabg?
a PA.

No one is saying PA's aren't important members of a team. You guys are literally physician's assistants. You are not physicians, do not have the education and training of a physician. The issue is being clouded by the fact that PA's are utilized in order to make surgeries more efficient at the detriment of the residents.

As much as a PA may be more efficient/skilled at harvesting a vein (vs. a greenhorn intern), the system will crumble if residents are not properly trained in the OR.
 
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