Pa :np

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Zrchrn

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I'm a little confused about what the real world difference between what PA's and NPs do, as well as the difference in training.

Also, is their a PA specialty relating to Psychology/Psychiatry?
edit:
Let me add this isn't for me. I have a friend who are interested in psychiatric fields and they are trying to determine which would be best for them. I offered to help, since I am curious about what some of the other health care practitioners do. Please avoid too much "comparison" just information on the field your most familiar with/prefer.

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I won't tackle your first question as it is the topic of many threads here already.
regarding your 2nd; yes, pa's work in psych.
pa's work in every medical and surgical specialty.
there are even 2 psych pa residencies(www.appap.org) and a psych pa society (www.psychpa.com)
 
PAs basically do 2/3 of medical school in 1/2 the time and learn on the job instead of doing a formal residency, although there are residencies available for PAs in most medical specialties. PAs have approximately 2,000 clinical hours, program is 2 yrs in length, and typically (as of late) results in a masters degree.

NPs are RNs who receive advanced training to build on their experience as RNs to provide advanced care to patients with an additional 600-700 clinical hours resulting in a 2 yr masters degree.

In practice, there always isn't a difference between the two, but PAs can operate and switch specialties where NPs cannot operate and must go back to school to change specialties.
 
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Thank you for your insightful responses. Let me clarify a little bit more, I'm trying to help someone decided on which path to take, as well as learn about other health fields out there.
This person is really interested in psychology/working with patients with more severe mental illness. This person is working towards a degree in psychology. However they are curious as to how to further that in a more clinical area. There is the Doctor of Psychology degree, but there is also (afaik) some areas where PAs and NPs can work with these patients and really help them and that's really what I'm exploring.

Part of that is finding out which path can be 1. taken most directly after a b.s. in psychology. 2. Which field is more expensive to go into, and 3. where the focus in the education is. It is my understanding that N.Ps are more trained in the "nursing" model, where as P.As are trained more in the "medical" model. However I'm not quite sure what that means esp. given the apparent similarity between the practice areas.

Thank you for all your help.
 
PAs basically do 2/3 of medical school in 1/2 the time...

No they don't. You can do 1/2 of medical school in 1/2 of the time, or you can do 2/3 of medical school in 2/3 of the time. But you cannot "basically" do 2/3 of medical school in 1/2 the time. There are no shortcuts.

...and learn on the job instead of doing a formal residency...

And, pray tell, just what do you think a formal residency IS, exactly? It is on-the-job learning, not sitting at a desk all day being taught, although there is certainly a didactic component IN ADDITION to 40-80+ (depending on your specialty) hours spent seeing and taking care of patients. In residency, you are a full-fledged MD with direct patient care responsibilities.

I have liked the PA students that I have interacted with. They have all been very intelligent and good people. But to act like you are some kind of super-student - to imply that your training is somehow magically more efficient - compared to the medical student/resident is just patently false. There is a reason that most PAs have chosen to go into the PA profession instead of pursuing medical school followed by residency - and this is almost always because becoming a PA takes less time, requires less schoolwork and training, your ultimate level of responsibility is less, and you are able to have a normal 40-hour/week schedule (or even less/part time) if you so choose. There is nothing wrong with making that choice, but you have to be willing to accept that your endpoint is different from that of an MD. There is a reason that it takes 4 years of medical school plus 3 years of residency to become a general practitioner, 5 or more years to become an orthopedist, 6 years to become a cardiologist, 7 or more years to become a CT surgeon, etc. Once again, there are no shortcuts.
 
No they don't. You can do 1/2 of medical school in 1/2 of the time, or you can do 2/3 of medical school in 2/3 of the time. But you cannot "basically" do 2/3 of medical school in 1/2 the time. There are no shortcuts.



And, pray tell, just what do you think a formal residency IS, exactly? It is on-the-job learning, not sitting at a desk all day being taught, although there is certainly a didactic component IN ADDITION to 40-80+ (depending on your specialty) hours spent seeing and taking care of patients. In residency, you are a full-fledged MD with direct patient care responsibilities.

I have liked the PA students that I have interacted with. They have all been very intelligent and good people. But to act like you are some kind of super-student - to imply that your training is somehow magically more efficient - compared to the medical student/resident is just patently false. There is a reason that most PAs have chosen to go into the PA profession instead of pursuing medical school followed by residency - and this is almost always because becoming a PA takes less time, requires less schoolwork and training, your ultimate level of responsibility is less, and you are able to have a normal 40-hour/week schedule (or even less/part time) if you so choose. There is nothing wrong with making that choice, but you have to be willing to accept that your endpoint is different from that of an MD. There is a reason that it takes 4 years of medical school plus 3 years of residency to become a general practitioner, 5 or more years to become an orthopedist, 6 years to become a cardiologist, 7 or more years to become a CT surgeon, etc. Once again, there are no shortcuts.

Ok thanks. However, I don't want this thread to go too far off topic. If you would like to start another thread to discuss this you can. No one is doubting the length of time/ difficulty of medical school. I'd hate for this to turn into a PA/NP vs. MD/DO war.
 
PAs basically do 2/3 of medical school in 1/2 the time and learn on the job instead of doing a formal residency, although there are residencies available for PAs in most medical specialties. PAs have approximately 2,000 clinical hours, program is 2 yrs in length, and typically (as of late) results in a masters degree.
NPs are RNs who receive advanced training to build on their experience as RNs to provide advanced care to patients with an additional 600-700 clinical hours resulting in a 2 yr masters degree. In practice, there always isn't a difference between the two, but PAs can operate and switch specialties where NPs cannot operate and must go back to school to change specialties.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Epic fail. This post if full of so much wrong it should self implode. Thanks for the hearty chuckle though.

By the way, you got a link for that masters program that allows you to walk away with an NP license with only 600-700 clinical hours? Didn't think so. And I completed at least 2000 hours of concentrated clinical during my undergrad while you PA'ers were studying some completely unrelated subjects, don't forget about that. I know, I know, next you're going to tell me that those 2000 hours have no relevance to NP training...save your breath.


OP, regarding the differences between NPs/PAs, do real research, not SDN research. You don’t need PAs telling you what NPs do or don’t do just as you don’t need NPs telling you what PAs do or don’t do. :thumbup:
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Epic fail. This post if full of so much wrong it should self implode. Thanks for the hearty chuckle though.

By the way, you got a link for that masters program that allows you to walk away with an NP license with only 600-700 clinical hours? Didn't think so. And I completed at least 2000 hours of concentrated clinical during my undergrad while you PA'ers were studying some completely unrelated subjects, don't forget about that. I know, I know, next you're going to tell me that those 2000 hours have no relevance to NP training...save your breath.


OP, regarding the differences between NPs/PAs, do real research, not SDN research. You don’t need PAs telling you what NPs do or don’t do just as you don’t need NPs telling you what PAs do or don’t do. :thumbup:

They probably were related to NP training. But that is one of the problems. Nursing is NOT medicine. They are 2 very different fields. The issue many people have is NP's want to practice medicine with a nursing background with no physician over site.
 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Epic fail. This post if full of so much wrong it should self implode. Thanks for the hearty chuckle though.

By the way, you got a link for that masters program that allows you to walk away with an NP license with only 600-700 clinical hours? Didn't think so. And I completed at least 2000 hours of concentrated clinical during my undergrad while you PA'ers were studying some completely unrelated subjects, don't forget about that. I know, I know, next you're going to tell me that those 2000 hours have no relevance to NP training...save your breath.


OP, regarding the differences between NPs/PAs, do real research, not SDN research. You don’t need PAs telling you what NPs do or don’t do just as you don’t need NPs telling you what PAs do or don’t do. :thumbup:

You fail to recognize that your nursing experience is not experience practicing medicine. That is an EPIC FAIL. Fact of the matter is theres not enough hard science and clinical time in NP programs.
 
OP, regarding the differences between NPs/PAs, do real research, not SDN research. You don’t need PAs telling you what NPs do or don’t do just as you don’t need NPs telling you what PAs do or don’t do. :thumbup:


I have. I recognize very well where SDN comes useful. It's a place where people familiar with the field can share their ideas. In between all the arrogance and useless arguments you often can find a few genuine people who give you good advice, or a tip you maybe didn't think of or a source to look at.
 
You fail to recognize that your nursing experience is not experience practicing medicine. That is an EPIC FAIL.
Fact of the matter is theres not enough hard science and clinical time in NP programs.
:laugh:

Fact? Or your opinion? As a PA student, what would you know about NP curricula and NP qualifications?? And on what authority do you have to make such generalizations? Where is the all the research that says NPs are under prepared in comparison to PAs? Where is all the research that says PA outcomes are better than NP outcomes? Again, if NPs are as dangerous as many of you claim, they wouldn't be allowed to practice and they wouldn't be continually sought after in almost every field of medicine. I'll reiterate that incompetency exists within all professions of the medical field. Just as there are bad NPs there are bad PAs and bad MDs/DOs and just as there are great NPs there are also great PAs and great MD/DOs. Yes there have been cases of NP **** ups. There have also been cases of PA **** ups and MD/DO **** ups. Should we shut down PA's and MD/DOs and deem them under qualified and ill prepared because a few made bad decisions here and there?
 
I don't think that the vast majority of people have a problem with NPs. I think the problem is with NPs trying to practice medicine independently and equivalently to a MD/DO.

And can you show me a MSN program that has substantially MORE than 700 clinical hours? The NPs I have spoken with on allnurses.com have said they received ~ 700 clinical hours in addition to their BSN programs and time spent as RNs. For example, the Case Western website says "You'll also need to put in at least 500 clinical hours for most MSN majors; the anesthesia, midwifery, cardiovascular, and flight nursing programs require even more." While that is only the minimum... still a pretty low minimum.

Also, have you forgotten that a large portion of PAs have at least 2000 hours in the healthcare field before starting PA school as well? Of course there are exceptions, but there are also NP students with zero hours as a RN.
 
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I think the lower required hours for NPs is a fair critique. I've worked with excellent PAs and NPs, so I know both types of programs can produce some excellent providers, though I'm wondering about who slips through the cracks in either training. The "independant practice" status seems to be the rub for many people, myself included.
 
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:laugh:

Fact? Or your opinion? As a PA student, what would you know about NP curricula and NP qualifications?? And on what authority do you have to make such generalizations? Where is the all the research that says NPs are under prepared in comparison to PAs? Where is all the research that says PA outcomes are better than NP outcomes? Again, if NPs are as dangerous as many of you claim, they wouldn't be allowed to practice and they wouldn't be continually sought after in almost every field of medicine. I'll reiterate that incompetency exists within all professions of the medical field. Just as there are bad NPs there are bad PAs and bad MDs/DOs and just as there are great NPs there are also great PAs and great MD/DOs. Yes there have been cases of NP **** ups. There have also been cases of PA **** ups and MD/DO **** ups. Should we shut down PA's and MD/DOs and deem them under qualified and ill prepared because a few made bad decisions here and there?

Where does it come from? Googling many different schools that house NP programs, including the "top echelon schools" and comparing them to PA curriculums (which I have looked at a ton in my research of which school to go to.) Also comparing my own school's NP program to my school's PA program I attend. Big differences. No one said there couldn't be good NPs, but there would probably be a lot more if they increased clinical hours and put more hard science into the curriculum.
 
No one said there couldn't be good NPs, but there would probably be a lot more if they increased clinical hours and put more hard science into the curriculum.

I've met a lot of great NPs, but every single one of them had either substantial backgrounds as RNs or medics. If they don't want to increase the clinical hours, they need to increase the required RN hours and I agree about the hard science curriculum, especially since there isn't a lot in the BSN either.
 
I don't think that the vast majority of people have a problem with NPs. I think the problem is with NPs trying to practice medicine independently and equivalently to a MD/DO.
Then why are you bashing the education/training/preparedness of the NP in comparison to a PA? You should stick to arguing that anyone with less than a MD/DO is not prepared to practice independently rather than bash NP programs in every other post.
Also, have you forgotten that a large portion of PAs have at least 2000 hours in the health care field before starting PA school as well?
Ditto for NPs. I spent at least 2000 hours in clinical as a undergrad studnet and have completed several thousand since graduating and working as an RN.
Of course there are exceptions, but there are also NP students with zero hours as a RN.
Yes, as you have noted, there are exceptions. There are NP students with zero clinical experience just as there are PA students with zero clinical experience. Whats your point???
I've met a lot of great NPs, but every single one of them had either substantial backgrounds as RNs or medics. If they don't want to increase the clinical hours, they need to increase the required RN hours
If they need to increase the RN hours then they also need to require PAs to have certain amount of clinical hours as well. And just FYI, you have fellow PA students on this very page who are arguing that RN experience doesn't matter since "your nursing experience is not experience practicing medicine."

How do PAs get clinical hours anyway? As volunteers? CNAs? Medics? Working as a Medic is far from the clinical experience that you receive as an RN. lol....how many PAs do you know that work on an ambulance. :laugh:
....and I agree about the hard science curriculum, especially since there isn't a lot in the BSN either.
Pre-Reqs for my nursing program at a small state school:

Chem 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Bio 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Medical Microbiology w/lab 2 times a week = 5 credits
Anatomy = 3 credits
Anatomy lab = 1 credit
Physiology = 4 credits
Patho Phys= 4 credits
College Algebra = 3 credits
Statistics w/lab = 4 credits
Pharmacology = 4 credits

And NO, these weren't watered down courses. They are the same courses taken by chem/biology students, pre med students, and pharmacy students. What else should I have been required to take in your mind?

Again, as a pre-PA student, I ask you, what gives you the authority to judge weather undergrad or graduate programs are adequate? google?? :roflcopter:
 
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Where does it come from? Googling many different schools that house NP programs, including the "top echelon schools" and comparing them to PA curriculums (which I have looked at a ton in my research of which school to go to.) Also comparing my own school's NP program to my school's PA program I attend. Big differences.
I see...so google and comparing some curricula give you the expertise to judge the adequacy of all NP programs. gotcha. :thumbup:
No one said there couldn't be good NPs, but there would probably be a lot more if they increased clinical hours and put more hard science into the curriculum.
Where is your data coming from that says that there are a bunch of bad NPs in the first place? Wheres the data that says PAs >> NPs because of patient outcomes or because of differences in clinical training and educational background. Your argument is asinine and what I would expect from a 12 year old. :sleep:
 
Pre-Reqs for my nursing program at a small state school:
Hoody said:
Chem 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Bio 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Medical Microbiology w/lab 2 times a week = 5 credits
Anatomy = 3 credits
Anatomy lab = 1 credit
Physiology = 4 credits
Patho Phys= 4 credits
College Algebra = 3 credits
Statistics w/lab = 4 credits
Pharmacology = 4 credits

And NO, these weren't watered down courses. They are the same courses taken by chem/biology students, pre med students, and pharmacy students. What else should I have been required to take in your mind?

Sorry Hoody,

Somes of those classes are watered down. When I went to college for my prerequisites there were 1)pre-nursing courses for anatomy, chemitry, biology ...all the science courses and then there were 2) pre-med science courses that were a lot more intense. I actually had enrolled in pre nursing chemistry by mistake so then I had to take the pre med version later and...there was a huge difference. Same thing with the others..my sister took biology 3 and I helped her study for it and it was extremely easy compared to biology 6, which was the premed class I took.
 
Pre-Reqs for my nursing program at a small state school:
Hoody said:
Chem 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Bio 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Medical Microbiology w/lab 2 times a week = 5 credits
Anatomy = 3 credits
Anatomy lab = 1 credit
Physiology = 4 credits
Patho Phys= 4 credits
College Algebra = 3 credits
Statistics w/lab = 4 credits
Pharmacology = 4 credits

And NO, these weren't watered down courses. They are the same courses taken by chem/biology students, pre med students, and pharmacy students. What else should I have been required to take in your mind?

Sorry Hoody,

Somes of those classes are watered down. When I went to college for my prerequisites there were 1)pre-nursing courses for anatomy, chemitry, biology ...all the science courses and then there were 2) pre-med science courses that were a lot more intense. I actually had enrolled in pre nursing chemistry by mistake so then I had to take the pre med version later and...there was a huge difference. Same thing with the others..my sister took biology 3 and I helped her study for it and it was extremely easy compared to biology 6, which was the premed class I took.

Hoody says they are the same, do you have evidence to suggest otherwise. Maybe "state" schools differ
 
Obviously no one can speak for ALL schools. The fact that nursing students take "watered down" versions of the equivalent pre-med coursework is true at MOST schools, but obviously not all, and most schools offer the option for nursing students to take the more advanced pre-med coursework should they choose. I just don't know anyone that has, personally, but I'm sure plenty of nursing students do.

On top of that, those undergraduate courses are in no way like the ones in graduate school. Anatomy, physiology, microbiology, chemistry, organic chemistry, genetics, etc are prerequisites to PA school and then all those courses are studied at a much more advanced level in PA school.

And contary to what you think, being a medic is a lot more than going for a joy ride in the back of an ambulance. '

The PA profession was founded on being a second career in health care (particularly, army medics). Sadly, more and more schools are forgetting about that and decreasing the # of clinical hours required. However, this is no different than the increasing number of direct entry 3 year BSN/MSN programs out there.
 
Ditto for NPs. I spent at least 2000 hours in clinical as a undergrad studnet and have completed several thousand since graduating and working as an RN.

And if APN's wanted to practice nursing cudos to you. But they don't, they want to practice medicine. Experience in nursing is not that same as experience with medicine. Different jobs. This is why clinical experience is often of little value to med school adcoms. I'm not all saying nursing isn't as necessary or important as medicine, just different. Same goes for things like RRT, EMS, etc.
 
How do PAs get clinical hours anyway? As volunteers? CNAs? Medics? Working as a Medic is far from the clinical experience that you receive as an RN. lol....how many PAs do you know that work on an ambulance. :laugh:

I had 20 years as a military medic prior to becoming a PA (10 years of which were in critical care). That's more time on an ambulance than you have in undergrad and after combined;).
 
how many PAs do you know that work on an ambulance.

several actually. there are a number of places that use pa's as ems medical directors and they go to the scene of significant events to render care and provide medical direction to on scene providers.there are also several pilot studies underway using pa's on ambulances as a way of keeping inappropriate cases out of emergency depts.
the pa's go to the scene and treat and release pts without their ever being transported to an emergency dept.
 
No they don't. You can do 1/2 of medical school in 1/2 of the time, or you can do 2/3 of medical school in 2/3 of the time. But you cannot "basically" do 2/3 of medical school in 1/2 the time. There are no shortcuts.
Yeah, I have a hard time believing that PA students are getting through this information faster than med students. Most med students were top of their classes and they're at full throttle.

I think what he meant to say was that he covered 2/9th of med school + residency at a pace that's probably 20% slower.

4yrs med school
5 yrs residency

2yrs PA school

2/9ths the training, and I would be willing to be HUGE money that the pace is slower.

/hijack
 
Yeah, I have a hard time believing that PA students are getting through this information faster than med students. Most med students were top of their classes and they're at full throttle.

I think what he meant to say was that he covered 2/9th of med school + residency at a pace that's probably 20% slower.

4yrs med school
5 yrs residency

2yrs PA school

2/9ths the training, and I would be willing to be HUGE money that the pace is slower.

/hijack

The didactic portion of medical school is 24 months and 4 semesters. The didactic portion of PA school is 12 months (3 semesters) or 15 months (4 semesters).
 
The didactic portion of medical school is 24 months and 4 semesters. The didactic portion of PA school is 12 months (3 semesters) or 15 months (4 semesters).
Yeah, we move fast.

And, it's still ~7-11 years of post UG study/training vs 2 years.
 
Yeah, we move fast.

And, it's still ~7-11 years of post UG study/training vs 2 years.

No one is trying to say PA training is anywhere close to the training physicians receive. Obviously the training an attending physician has is far superior to a PA (and a NP).

The point was that PAs education is very similar to the education physicians receive in medical school, where the education NPs receive is vastly different. PAs also have the option to do a 1-2yr residency, where they are treated exactly like a PGY-1 (or PGY-2 for the second year of a 2yr residency). While again that doesn't come close to a physician (and PAs are happy being midlevels and working with a physician), it should still count for something, and is a whole lot more medical education than NPs receive.
 
...
2/9ths the training, and I would be willing to be HUGE money that the pace is slower.

/hijack


Quite a trick you've got there, mind teaching the rest of us? :laugh: Sorry, I'm not usually a strict grammar person, but that cracked me up. I just imagined teaching/tricking my classmates to turn into $100 bills that I could use to pay off tuition.
 
Wow, what a discussion. Is this how everyone get's their kicks, or why you all choose your careers? "My degree get's more training than yours". With that training comes a lot of responsibility among other things. Some people want to treat people and make a difference in their lives without being married to the career. (Which, in my opinion is an important aspect of career choice). That doesn't make them less smart/capable (in some cases it makes them smarter because they really enjoy their family time and having that eroded a little bit might make them hate what they do -> be less willing to go the distance for their patients). Other people really want to go as deep as they can in their careers and they want to be immersed in them.

Now, it's true MDs/DOs do still have time for their families etc. However I think it's pretty accurate to say they have less time than most NPs/PAs (unless the latter group chooses to spend more time at work).

That is just one aspect of the choice between going MD/DO or NP/PA etc.
Obviously there are differences in training, but the bottom line is you will be trained to perform your role. Part of that is knowing where your role ends, and someone else's begins. This applies to physicians as well; pcps need to know when to hand the case to cardiology, or urology etc. I would imagine this shouldn't be the main concern in your choice between one program and another, since eventually there will always be someone else who has more authority or influence. If that's what your fixated on then maybe you should step back a little and reconsider your priorities. In the health care world it's easy to fall into the trap of "I'm more qualified, these people are not," rather than "I am one part in this whole, I know how to do x,y,z and I know when they are effective, if I get a patient needing these services I will be able to either provide them, or if not I can refer the case to someone else" and even "it's a better use of my time if I handle x,y and let this person handle z for me since that will yield the best outcome for the patients". If the patient is treated, in the end how much does it matter if the PA helped them, or an NP, or a DO? Physicans sometimes get caught up into thinking they have to do everything. Your part of a team, use that to your advantage. If you can't trust the PAs you hired, then there are serious problems in the way you run your practice.

The most important thing though, is at the end of the day these are all JOBS. You do it the best you can, you try to feel good about your job, you hopefully enjoy your work because it's a big part of your life. But when it's all said and done you go home to your hobbies and your family, and in any of these careers, your likely to be able to live fairly comfortably.

What I'm trying to say is, your career path does not determine who you are, who you are determines who you are. So stop arguing about it. Esp. since this had nothing to do with MDs/DOs vs NPs/PAs Esp. when the fact that one person thinks PA school teaches you 2/3s of Med. School in half the time doesn't necessarily degrade from the value of an MD. Whether true or not. What you learn in school, unless you make the effort to enhance it and build upon it / review it over time will likely go away anyways.

Now, to you NPs/PAs who have practiced or spent a lot of time with practising members of your field, what is your personal opinion of the role of that particular practitioner. (NPs please respond on your experience as NPs and PAs please do like wise). Let's not get caught up into which you think is better, no comparison, just your take.

I am also interested in what people mean by the "Nursing Model".
 
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I am also interested in what people mean by the "Nursing Model".

It comes from Nursing Theory, and it is the theoretical framework(s) from which nurses are educated and it informs how they approach a case. There are actually a number of models under the "Nursing Model" umbrella, though I'll defer to nurses as to what that entails.
 
Pre-Reqs for my nursing program at a small state school:
Hoody said:
Chem 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Bio 1 w/lab = 4 credits
Medical Microbiology w/lab 2 times a week = 5 credits
Anatomy = 3 credits
Anatomy lab = 1 credit
Physiology = 4 credits
Patho Phys= 4 credits
College Algebra = 3 credits
Statistics w/lab = 4 credits
Pharmacology = 4 credits

And NO, these weren't watered down courses. They are the same courses taken by chem/biology students, pre med students, and pharmacy students. What else should I have been required to take in your mind?

Sorry Hoody,

Somes of those classes are watered down. When I went to college for my prerequisites there were 1)pre-nursing courses for anatomy, chemitry, biology ...all the science courses and then there were 2) pre-med science courses that were a lot more intense. I actually had enrolled in pre nursing chemistry by mistake so then I had to take the pre med version later and...there was a huge difference. Same thing with the others..my sister took biology 3 and I helped her study for it and it was extremely easy compared to biology 6, which was the premed class I took.


that's ridiculous. i can't speak for every college, but at mine, human anatomy is the same for every major. like me, a pre dent, or pre-med, pre-vet, pre-dpt, pre-ot, pre-pa, or ess, nursing, dietetics. we all take the same class, and the course curriculum does not vary.
 
actually many colleges do have 2 tracks for science courses; those for majors or non-majors.
for example at the university of ca(my alma mater) we had physics for bio majors series(201, 202, 203) and another course called introductory physics for folks who wanted an overview of the subject but didn't need the depth.ditto chem. ditto microbio, etc
 
actually many colleges do have 2 tracks for science courses; those for majors or non-majors.
for example at the university of ca(my alma mater) we had physics for bio majors series(201, 202, 203) and another course called introductory physics for folks who wanted an overview of the subject but didn't need the depth.ditto chem. ditto microbio, etc

Yea but pre-reqs aren't always indicative of the depth. that you will go into once you get into the full professional school.

For example at UF pre-pharms take anatomy&physiology pre-med for UF don't have to. Does that mean that pharmacy students have more anatomy experiance than medical students at UF???? Absolutly not. In fact, the reason it's a pre-requisent is that no anatomy classes are required in pharmacy. (Well, not the kind where you disect/ have to name the parts etc. There are anatomy/physiology parts in a lot of the courses like physiological basis of disease, however no where near the depth that med/dental students go into. Although I should add that there used to be an anatomy part to the curriculum and some pharmacy schools still have disection labs etc. ) These things that depend on schools aren't necessarily worth arguing because so much variance exists as to the depth in which each individual college chooses to delve into one area or another. Some nursing schools might want their students to have better experience in chemistry, others might not. In all honesty though, I don't know how much depth you really need in chemistry if your going to be a physician or a nurse or a PA. A lot of what you need can be covered within the curriculum if you at least have some background in the subject. That said, I'm not really sure how deep either of these colleges go into it. I do know that pharmacy students have several medicinal chemistry courses, so a strong chemical background is very helpful, but that is to be expected.
 
actually many colleges do have 2 tracks for science courses; those for majors or non-majors.
for example at the university of ca(my alma mater) we had physics for bio majors series(201, 202, 203) and another course called introductory physics for folks who wanted an overview of the subject but didn't need the depth.ditto chem. ditto microbio, etc

did not mention human anatomy in your post, that is the course i was referring to. that's what is ridiculous.
 
several actually. there are a number of places that use pa's as ems medical directors and they go to the scene of significant events to render care and provide medical direction to on scene providers.there are also several pilot studies underway using pa's on ambulances as a way of keeping inappropriate cases out of emergency depts.
the pa's go to the scene and treat and release pts without their ever being transported to an emergency dept.

Waste of PAs and $$$ in my opinion. Just have the paramedics radio back to ED doc/PA for permission to send patient in taxi or have protocols for non-ambulance transport.
 
Waste of PAs and $$$ in my opinion. Just have the paramedics radio back to ED doc/PA for permission to send patient in taxi or have protocols for non-ambulance transport.
the idea is to decrease crowding at the e.d. so if the pa can suture, I+D, etc in the field the pt stays at home and doesn't crowd an already busy e.d.
a cab ride means they still arrive at the e.d.
this model tries to keep the e.d. for true emergencies.
 
the idea is to decrease crowding at the e.d. so if the pa can suture, I+D, etc in the field the pt stays at home and doesn't crowd an already busy e.d.
a cab ride means they still arrive at the e.d.
this model tries to keep the e.d. for true emergencies.

Ok, got it. I was thinking about all those misuse of ambulance cases!

PAs in the field might be too costly though?? When I was first in the ER in the early 70's we had the same problem as today. With our ills of society, I think the fast track is one solution as there are those who will always attempt to use the ED. Shuffle them over where they belong.

But then again, I haven't been in the ED for a while.
 
Prairiedog said:

"Hoody says they are the same, do you have evidence to suggest otherwise. Maybe "state" schools differ"

I guess there is great variation in education for different nursing programs throughout the country.
And if you look through schedules of classes for different colleges, you will see that there are prerequisites for prenursing and different prerequisites for premed.
There is your evidence. Besides I told you I took both prenursing chemistry and premed chemistry and there was a big difference. But I guess you decided to ignore that.
 
[QUOTE;]the idea is to decrease crowding at the e.d. so if the pa can suture, I+D, etc in the field the pt stays at home and doesn't crowd an already busy e.d.
a cab ride means they still arrive at the e.d.
this model tries to keep the e.d. for true emergencies.[/QUOTE]

My service tried this but gave it up because it wasn't efficient enough. The idea was the PA/RN could suture a minor lac rather than take it to the ED, but it took so long to set up a sterile field in someone's house, get a table set up etc that it would have been faster to just do it in the ED. Also you lose a lot of time while the PA is driving around from house to house. The whole point of the ED is that you have all these patients together and you can just go from room to room.

I guess if your limiting factor is physical space rather than man power it makes sense. What we really need is for the paramedics to say "in my clinical judgement, you don't need to go to the ED for this. You have a PMD, you should call them in the morning and go see them." Right now it's a medicolegal nightmare. I'm just not sure having the PA have the same conversation helps much more. IF the patient still wants to go to the ED they still have to get transported. As a system we needs to start saying no.
 
I didn't know RN's were allowed to suture....
 
Perhaps a simple laceration with training. Or maybe they are RNFAs. That is a pretty short course.
 
I didn't know RN's were allowed to suture....

one of the places I worked had an rn suturing protocol for about 6 months. they took a 15 min course from the doc who came up with the idea. they also did the local with lido 1% plain.
a provider(md/do/pa/np) had to verify that it was a simple lac and see the repair after it was done. it was just faster for us to do it ourselves and work on our own schedule rather than having to play catch up with other folks. also they had a higher rate of infection and dehisence(which was tracked) vs clinicians doing it( what should you expect from a 15 min course and practicing once on a simulated very simple lac-they were set up for failure).
after we officially stopped the protocol several nurses continued to do lacs on the sly("well, it was busy"...."oh, I thought we were still allowed", etc) resulting in disciplinary actions....
 
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Oh, yeah. Piece of cake.

Certification RNFA

How's about you become a nurse first before you go around telling everyone this, that and the other about nursing? You don't know bupkis.

You might have to define "bupkis" for some readers. :laugh:
 
In the military, the emergency room technicians are the ones that suture the minor lacerations, freeing the docs up for more complicated cases. I sutured my first wound back in 1984 as an E-4. We would run through 20 suture sets over the course of a weekend, 30 if it was a payday weekend (gotta love drunk infantrymen and barfights).
 
Oh, yeah. Piece of cake.

Certification RNFA

How's about you become a nurse first before you go around telling everyone this, that and the other about nursing? You don't know bupkis.

The actual training course is pretty short. Not the preparation to begin the course. My aunt (the critical care CNS) is going through it right now. At least at my local school, the actual training is 2 quarters (20 weeks). Not all that long. And I never said it was easy or a piece of cake. I said the actual training is pretty short.
 
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The point was that PAs education is very similar to the education physicians receive in medical school, where the education NPs receive is vastly different. PAs also have the option to do a 1-2yr residency, where they are treated exactly like a PGY-1 (or PGY-2 for the second year of a 2yr residency).

noooo, rly? srsly???:confused:

Are you saying PA 'residents' are pulling 28 hours shifts and doing 80 hour work weeks? Because if they aren't, they are most definitely not being 'treated exactly like a PGY-1."
 
Are you saying PA 'residents' are pulling 28 hours shifts and doing 80 hour work weeks? Because if they aren't, they are most definitely not being 'treated exactly like a PGY-1."

YUP THEY ARE. I have several friends who have done and are currently doing these and I actually visited one of them while he was a resident. he was scheduled interchangeably with pgy-1 surgical residents.

pa residencies are 1-2 yrs in length in the fields of ct surgery, critical care, derm, emergency, IM/hospitalist, neonatology, neurosurg, obgyn, oncology, ortho, psych, rheumatology, sleep medicine, urology, gen. surg, and trauma.

from a prominent pa surgical residency program:
Physician Assistant Residents will be assigned a workload and duties similar to those of first year (PGY1) physician surgical residents. Duties will include history & physical examinations, writing patient orders and progress notes in the hospital record, responding to and evaluating patient problems, making rounds, ordering diagnostic studies, assisting in the operating room, and performing invasive procedures with appropriate oversight by the supervising physician. Night call will be assigned on a rotating basis. The PA resident will be assigned first-call responsibilities with appropriate supervision and within the scope of his/her practice parameters. The PA Resident will avail himself/herself of additional direction and/or assistance as needed.

FROM ANOTHER PROGRAM:
Didactic: During the two-month didactic phase, the PA attends lectures and conferences covering surgical and medical topics designed to deepen knowledge and prepare him/her for the clinical rotations. Included are ACLS training, surgical skills, radiology, orientation to the operating room and techniques and preparation for clinical rotations.
Clinical: The clinical portions consists of eleven four-week rotations and one month of vacation. The PA receives four to five months of general surgery, one month each of emergency room at a level I trauma center, cardiothoracic surgery, peripheral vascular surgery, and three months at surgical specialties. On rotation, the PA works side-by-side with physician house staff and assumes full PGY-1 level responsibility, which includes assignment to the operating room. Education on the clinical rotations comes from bedside clinical teaching by house staff and attendings as well as formal conferences. The call schedule is every third night.

from a pa obgyn residency:
The PA residents are trained along with the OB/GYN physician residents, working 70-80 hours per week, and are exposed to the management of complicated and non-complicated antepartum, intrapartum, postpartum, postoperative, acutely ill, and well OB and GYN patients. Upon completion of this residency, the PA should be competent in performing vaginal deliveries, 1st assisting in Cesarean deliveries and gynecological surgeries, and performing colposcopies and other common gynecological procedures.

from a pa critical care residency:
PA fellows will have the opportunity to manage the care of complex surgical populations, including heart transplants, ventricular assist devices (VAD) intra-aortic balloon pumps (IABP) and kidney transplants, as well as learn and perform procedures such as: central lines, arterial lines, intubations, airway management, bronchoscopy, and thoracostomy.
 
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