Pa :np

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
YUP THEY ARE. I have several friends who have done and are currently doing these and I actually visited one of them while he was a resident. he was scheduled interchangeably with pgy-1 surgical residents.

Good to know. Do all PAs do them?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Good to know. Do all PAs do them?

Nope, they are optional. a few students/class do them. maybe 5-7% of all pa's.
some real masochists do more than 1. I have a friend who did gen surgery followed by c.t. surgery. it took him 2 residencies to figure out that he doesn't like working with surgeons...he now works full time in e.m.
there are new programs every yr and I think with the tendency for pa school applicants today to have less prior health care experience than older pa's that they will become more popular over time. I wouldn't be surprised if they were required of all pa's wanting to work outside of primary care within a decade. there is already a move within the national body that certifies pa's to introduce specialty exams in 2011 which will be "optional" (for now).
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm trying to figure out why, lol...
 
"clinical pharmacist".
can work clinically or in academics, has a doctorate no one will make fun of....and it only adds 1 yr of school to the pharmD(the clinical yr fulfills requirements for both clinical yrs so they just have to do the first yr of pa school extra.) 5 yr program after a bs so 9 yrs of school total.
 
"clinical pharmacist".
can work clinically or in academics, has a doctorate no one will make fun of....and it only adds 1 yr of school to the pharmD(the clinical yr fulfills requirements for both clinical yrs so they just have to do the first yr of pa school extra.) 5 yr program after a bs so 9 yrs of school total.

I thought PharmD was 6 years post High school? Or is the program your referring to require a BS to enter? If so why would a person go 9 years for a PharmD /PA , could they not through medical school/residency with one/two more years?
 
I thought PharmD was 6 years post High school? Or is the program your referring to require a BS to enter? If so why would a person go 9 years for a PharmD /PA , could they not through medical school/residency with one/two more years?
PharmD is four years. Either BS + four or six years in a direct program. The problem is that to work outside of Walmart you have to do at least one year of post grad work. If you want to work as a clinical pharmacist in a specialty field you have to do another year of post grad work (at least around here). The argument has always been if you had the pre-reqs for pharmacy and PA school you could probably be done with medical school in less time. Its OK for pharmacists that want prescriptive authority, but in a real clinical situation you are going to do one or the other and the skill set you don't use will rapidly atrophy (in my opinion).

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Nope, they are optional. a few students/class do them. maybe 5-7% of all pa's.
some real masochists do more than 1. I have a friend who did gen surgery followed by c.t. surgery. it took him 2 residencies to figure out that he doesn't like working with surgeons...he now works full time in e.m.
there are new programs every yr and I think with the tendency for pa school applicants today to have less prior health care experience than older pa's that they will become more popular over time. I wouldn't be surprised if they were required of all pa's wanting to work outside of primary care within a decade. there is already a move within the national body that certifies pa's to introduce specialty exams in 2011 which will be "optional" (for now).

So, you're saying that PAs in primary care aren't doing residencies and specialty exams? If not, they should be. FPs do, why should PAs be any different?
 
So, you're saying that PAs in primary care aren't doing residencies and specialty exams? If not, they should be. FPs do, why should PAs be any different?

the focus of most pa programs( all but a few surgical and peds focus programs) is primary care already and our mandatory national cert exam is a primary care exam. we all have to recert in primary care every 6 yrs regardless of which specialty we work in. many pa's use fp specialty board prep materials for the exam(I know I did). the new specialty exams being proposed would be in addition to this primary care exam we all take anyway. any pa right out of school should be able to walk into a job in primary care (with adequate supervision) and start working day 1 as a safe beginner to the field.
 
The didactic portion of medical school is 24 months and 4 semesters. The didactic portion of PA school is 12 months (3 semesters) or 15 months (4 semesters).

As somebody doing med school, I can tell you you can't speed up the medical school curriculum. The fact that the didactic portion of PA school is shorter proves that they are leaving stuff out, not that they are going faster and covering the same material. Trust me, if you were covering all the material we're covering and trying to do it faster, you wouldn't want to be anywhere near this process. There's a difference between skimming over the top and going into detail. A lot of times, I wish we did more skimming over the top around here.
 
that's ridiculous. i can't speak for every college, but at mine, human anatomy is the same for every major. like me, a pre dent, or pre-med, pre-vet, pre-dpt, pre-ot, pre-pa, or ess, nursing, dietetics. we all take the same class, and the course curriculum does not vary.

My pre-med school had different levels of prerequisite coursework. Some of the pre-meds didn't even want to take the most rigorous options.
 
No one is trying to say PA training is anywhere close to the training physicians receive. Obviously the training an attending physician has is far superior to a PA (and a NP).

The point was that PAs education is very similar to the education physicians receive in medical school, where the education NPs receive is vastly different. PAs also have the option to do a 1-2yr residency, where they are treated exactly like a PGY-1 (or PGY-2 for the second year of a 2yr residency). While again that doesn't come close to a physician (and PAs are happy being midlevels and working with a physician), it should still count for something, and is a whole lot more medical education than NPs receive.

At least PAs understand this. One of the greatest problems with some other mid-levels is that they don't seem to understand their own limitations. For that matter, it becomes a problem when physicians don't understand their own limitations. None of us can know everything. I can't believe that anybody would think that mid-levels practicing without some sort of physician support (I prefer to call it "support" rather than "supervision") is a good idea. A safety net in medicine is never a bad idea is it? We do have people's lives at stake after all. Having a physician on site or available for phone consult immediately at least gives you the opportunity to double-check something if you're unsure.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
there are also several pilot studies underway using pa's on ambulances as a way of keeping inappropriate cases out of emergency depts.
the pa's go to the scene and treat and release pts without their ever being transported to an emergency dept.

I'm going to let all of you do battle over the NP vs. PA thing. I just wanted to say that I like the idea of PAs evaluating patients to keep low acuity cases out of the ED...
 
I'm going to let all of you do battle over the NP vs. PA thing. I just wanted to say that I like the idea of PAs evaluating patients to keep low acuity cases out of the ED...

I think having a PA on an ambulance makes a heck of a lot more sense than having EMTs on there by themselves. Of course, they cost more too. What - about 3 times the cost of an EMT? :thumbup: :thumbdown:
 
In the discussion of mid-level purview, it is important to remember that there are some things that clearly fall into the category of mid-level treatment - like everybody who walks in with vomiting and diarrhea. This can be handled by any NP or PA. Doesn't require an MD at all. :laugh: Feel free to mail in my comedian fee.
 
I think having a PA on an ambulance makes a heck of a lot more sense than having EMTs on there by themselves. Of course, they cost more too. What - about 3 times the cost of an EMT? :thumbup: :thumbdown:

Other than the above mentioned reason(dispo'ing worthless calls @ the scene), EMTs are perfectly capable of working on rigs. The entire purpose of EMTs is to scoop and run. You don't need a medical license to start IVs, get EKGs, or perform protocols. For the ~10mins a patient is riding in an ambulance an EMT, in contact with the ER, is more than sufficient care.

RGMSU, how many summers do MSI and MSIIs get off? How often are you in lecture/lab from 8a-8p x5 days a week? The MSs I know got their first summer off and are typically out of lecture by 2-3pm, and that's if they even ATTEND lecture, which few do.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=675755

And to make matters worse next year's incoming class will only have class from 8 - 12pm everyday....

I don't think we've had more than 5 or 6 hours of lectures in one day. That's a lot, but I'm thankful that it's broken up with small group stuff.

Our lecture is 8-noon. Then two days per week we have an hour or two (max) doctoring session, which doesn't exactly destroy your day but it certainly takes away from your afternoon.

8-5 every single day would be demoralizing.

Instead of worrying about PA education perhaps you should turn your focus towards NPs who have ~90% online didactics and do a bunch of busy work like poster projects, writing pathophys papers, and essays on what their mother & grandmother did for menstrual cramps.

PAs atleast take gross, biochem etc. And I say all of this as a RN applying to PA school.
 
Last edited:
I think having a PA on an ambulance makes a heck of a lot more sense than having EMTs on there by themselves. Of course, they cost more too. What - about 3 times the cost of an EMT? :thumbup: :thumbdown:

try 5x the cost....
 
RGMSU, how many summers do MSI and MSIIs get off? How often are you in lecture/lab from 8a-8p x5 days a week? The MSs I know got their first summer off and are typically out of lecture by 2-3pm, and that's if they even ATTEND lecture, which few do.

Instead of worrying about PA education perhaps you should turn your focus towards NPs who have ~90% online didactics and do a bunch of busy work like poster projects, writing pathophys papers, and essays on what their mother & grandmother did for menstrual cramps.

PAs atleast take gross, biochem etc. And I say all of this as a RN applying to PA school.

I'm not worried about PA education. I have more than enough to worry about with my own education. Those quotes aren't from me. As long as PAs are willing to be supervised, and I will get paid for supervising them, I happen to like PAs just fine. The mid-levels who don't want to be supervised are the ones that tick me off. And, please, my concept of "supervision" should be taken loosely. If you have a PA you can't trust enough to not be constantly looking over each other's shoulder, then it's probably not even worth it. As far as summers, I can say that we get MSI summer off. Beyond that, can't answer. I don't think MS2 summer is off actually. I will probably try to do an FM preceptorship this summer. Our lecture schedule is highly variable because we are on a "Block" and "Phase" system with info integrated around organ systems. Labs are what keep us up here in the afternoon more than lecture. We have an occasional lecture after lunch until 1 or 2. Frequently, though, lab will keep us up here until 4 or 5. We usually start at 9 and get an hour lunch, which isn't enough time to do jack. We usually get one afternoon off per week to catch up. Two days a week we are probably out by 3. Two days a week we are out by more like 5. They almost always keep us in lab until 5 on Friday - just another way they've devised to jab at us. I use weekends to catch up too. The only time I really "take off" is right after a test for a day or two. Otherwise, I would go insane. I can't speak to other health providers' education, but what they put us through in medical school really is not mentally healthy at all. Our "time off" is really time to study.
 
Last edited:
As long as PAs are willing to be supervised, and I will get paid for supervising them, I happen to like PAs just fine. The mid-levels who don't want to be supervised are the ones that tick me off. And, please, my concept of "supervision" should be taken loosely. If you have a PA you can't trust enough to not be constantly looking over each other's shoulder, then it's probably not even worth it.

Fair enough and I agree. I just didnt want you to discount PA didactics because they do 10-16 months vs. the 2 'years' med schools do. The hours spent covering material in those 10-16 months is probably not much shorther than the time spend in MS1 and MSII years (given 3 months off for summer first year and fewer lecture hours per week). I wont say its the exact same but its is more than sufficient.
 
Fair enough and I agree. I just didnt want you to discount PA didactics because they do 10-16 months vs. the 2 'years' med schools do. The hours spent covering material in those 10-16 months is probably not much shorther than the time spend in MS1 and MSII years (given 3 months off for summer first year and fewer lecture hours per week). I wont say its the exact same but its is more than sufficient.

Oh, so you were talking to me? Honestly, I think this is a bit silly. The people who've been to med school haven't been to PA school, and vice versa, so how can you compare the two? Secondly, who gives a crap? Besides educational differences, the role for a PA is pretty well defined by the name of their degree. People who get into the profession should understand that from the start, otherwise they shouldn't get into it. If they want to be a physician instead of a physician assistant or associate or whatever, they know where they need to go. My understanding is that most people who go to PA school understand what they're getting into and would prefer to have it that way. The people who are confused are those who think a PA is a pseudo-physician. They are not called a PP instead of a PA. See what I mean? I thought the person posting the thing about hours was saying that PAs are equivalent to MDs as evidenced by education, which is clearly untrue even by the law. That's what I'm referring to. I don't give a rat's butt who's in class for how long and how many months. That's all kid stuff. Docs are docs, and PAs are PAs. Everybody knows that when they sign up for their respective degree programs. Simple as that. You can try to convince the world that nurses are docs or PAs are docs or EMTs are docs or whatever based on such and such education, but nobody else is buying it. Everybody should just be proud of their own profession instead of trying to compare to everybody else.
 
Last edited:
You need to rephrase your argument talking about NPs, not PAs. PAs are not trying to say they have equivalent education to a MD. PAs are just saying that their education is very closely modeled after medical school. NPs are trying to say their education is equivalent to medical school.
 
You need to rephrase your argument talking about NPs, not PAs. PAs are not trying to say they have equivalent education to a MD. PAs are just saying that their education is very closely modeled after medical school. NPs are trying to say their education is equivalent to medical school.

Did I not say that about NPs? My thinly veiled comments about "mid-levels who don't want to be supervised?" Who exactly do you think I'm talking about there? They can say they are equivalent all they want to, but nobody believes it besides them. Look at employment patterns. How many NPs do you know getting hired by clinics to work for physician's salaries? I haven't heard of any. Second, their belligerence toward physicians has cost them more than it's gained them. Who has an easier time getting hired by a doc? PAs or NPs? Hmm... I'll let you think about that one. How many patients do you think are going to choose a DNP over an MD? Common sense really. They can call themselves "Dr." all they want, but when people hear the word "nurse" mixed in there and they see "DNP" instead of "MD," they'll know what's up. At least the kind of patients I'm looking to treat will.
 
I come from a very PA unfriendly and NP friendly area. I've had even trauma surgeons say they'd hire a new grad NP over an experienced surgical PA any day. Hopefully my area is pretty uncommon, but it really irks me.
 
I come from a very PA unfriendly and NP friendly area. I've had even trauma surgeons say they'd hire a new grad NP over an experienced surgical PA any day. Hopefully my area is pretty uncommon, but it really irks me.

once again laur that's because you are in ohio, the WORST PA STATE IN THE NATION.
go to north carolina, washington state, maine, vermont, new hampshire, montana, etc and see who gets all the hospital based midlevel jobs.....
 
once again laur that's because you are in ohio, the WORST PA STATE IN THE NATION.
go to north carolina, washington state, maine, vermont, new hampshire, montana, etc and see who gets all the hospital based midlevel jobs.....

I would also add "laur" is "laur" , after reading her posts I simply refer to them as another "laur" response!
 
once again laur that's because you are in ohio, the WORST PA STATE IN THE NATION.
go to north carolina, washington state, maine, vermont, new hampshire, montana, etc and see who gets all the hospital based midlevel jobs.....

The hospitals around where I grew up in Maine are in a frenzy trying to find enough PAs to hire. Makes me excited to go back and practice there!
 
I come from a very PA unfriendly and NP friendly area. I've had even trauma surgeons say they'd hire a new grad NP over an experienced surgical PA any day. Hopefully my area is pretty uncommon, but it really irks me.
You live in (what sounds to me like) a weird area. Where I am, NPs are valued colleagues in primary care, out in the FP clinics and whatnot, but in the hospital I don't see very many of them...

EDIT: Wow, I could just read the rest of the thread, and save myself some typing. ;)
 
Depending on which way the wind blows, laur is NP friendly or unfriendly. It just depends on whether the sun is shining; the wind is coming from the east/west; the moon is in the seventh house; etc., etc. Whatever is most expedient for her, IOW.

Of course, she has to first get through nursing school to be an NP. Details, details...
 
Yeah, I have a hard time believing that PA students are getting through this information faster than med students. Most med students were top of their classes and they're at full throttle.

I think what he meant to say was that he covered 2/9th of med school + residency at a pace that's probably 20% slower.

4yrs med school
5 yrs residency

2yrs PA school

2/9ths the training, and I would be willing to be HUGE money that the pace is slower.

/hijack

Don't measure in years....I know med students must be smarter than that. PA school's average 111 weeks vs med school average 150 weeks. When you break it down into hours of training, it gets even closer.

Of course, this doesn't include the post doctorate training of a med student...nor the post graduate experiential learning of a PA.
 
Don't measure in years....I know med students must be smarter than that. PA school's average 111 weeks vs med school average 150 weeks. When you break it down into hours of training, it gets even closer.

Of course, this doesn't include the post doctorate training of a med student...nor the post graduate experiential learning of a PA.

I think that's the point people are trying to make. Time wise it's close, however I doubt it is close in terms of the amount of information you have to cover in that time frame.
 
I think that's the point people are trying to make. Time wise it's close, however I doubt it is close in terms of the amount of information you have to cover in that time frame.

Close but no cigar. Close time-wise huh? 4 years undergrad + 2 years master's vs. 4 years undergrad + 4 years doctoral + minimum 3 years residency. 6 vs. 11. How exactly is that close again? Oh, we need to do it by weeks right? Give me a break here. We just had one lecture at my school for all the lymphatic drainage of the body. One lecture. So, be careful when you judge the contents of a week of medical school. Might be a little more than you think.
 
Last edited:
Don't measure in years....I know med students must be smarter than that. PA school's average 111 weeks vs med school average 150 weeks. When you break it down into hours of training, it gets even closer.

Of course, this doesn't include the post doctorate training of a med student...nor the post graduate experiential learning of a PA.

You're leaving out something here. Clinical years of med school. Residency. And since when does "post graduate experiential learning" get included in the time course of an education? So a nurse who has 20 years of "post graduate experiential learning" is an honorary physician? Makes absolutely no sense.
 
So a nurse who has 20 years of "post graduate experiential learning" is an honorary physician? Makes absolutely no sense.

:thumbup: Sounds good to me. Doctor Del Norte. I like the sound of that.
 
You're leaving out something here. Clinical years of med school. Residency
.

Thanks for the response. I was working under the impression you understood what medical school consisted. My understanding (which can be debated) - Medical school education averages 150-155 weeks (includes didactic and clinical education) PA school averages 111 weeks (includes didactic and clinical education) Post doctorate training includes internship/residency/fellowship...Post graduate learning for PA school would include experiential learning.

From my observation, I didn't leave anything out if you read my original post accurately. Again, I was simply working under the the wrongful assumption that folks on the forum would understand that medical school (all 155 weeks) included both clinical and didactic education. I also wrongly assumed that the folks understood what post doctorage training is!
I will be more careful next time when using language and take into consideration that there are some students still going through the wonderful process of formal education on these forums.


And since when does "post graduate experiential learning" get included in the time course of an education?



I'm not deliberately attacking your comprehension of my post, but if you read again, I never stated that post graduate PA experiential learning "was included in the time course of an education". If you study the language of my post, you'll see that I simply called it experiential learning and not training or education. You're certainly welcome to show off your smarts and debate whether that has value to the role of a clinician.

So a nurse who has 20 years of "post graduate experiential learning" is an honorary physician? Makes absolutely no sense.

A very entertaining hyperbole

All the best in your studies! L.
 
Close but no cigar. Close time-wise huh? 4 years undergrad + 2 years master's vs. 4 years undergrad + 4 years doctoral + minimum 3 years residency. 6 vs. 11. How exactly is that close again? Oh, we need to do it by weeks right? Give me a break here. We just had one lecture at my school for all the lymphatic drainage of the body. One lecture. So, be careful when you judge the contents of a week of medical school. Might be a little more than you think.


RGMSU,
Somehow I managed to miss this post. Please note that I'm very supportive of medical school education and wish you the best in your studies. However, a cursory review of the lymphatic drainage (one lecture) isn't terribly impressive. Do you really believe that others aren’t grappling with this information? Very, very basic stuff. You have a long ways to go.

As far as comparing PA school to MD....I personally don't care to have that debate. The quality of the education in each is largely influenced by the quality of the teachers and their instructional philosophy. It's my understanding that many schools share faculty and PA's and MD's often take the same courses, in the same classroom, amongst each other. Wicked Crazy Sh*&.

Continue to write.

I’m just going to do my best to listen.

Keep the faith, L
 
Close but no cigar. Close time-wise huh? 4 years undergrad + 2 years master's vs. 4 years undergrad + 4 years doctoral + minimum 3 years residency. 6 vs. 11. How exactly is that close again? Oh, we need to do it by weeks right? Give me a break here. We just had one lecture at my school for all the lymphatic drainage of the body. One lecture. So, be careful when you judge the contents of a week of medical school. Might be a little more than you think.

I think you misunderstand what I was getting at. My point was in a sense law is correct. Medical school is on average 150 weeks, and PA school is around 112. That's fairly close in terms of length when you look at difference in schedules. But as you pointed out the contents are not even remotely similar, which I suppose I should have emphasized more in my original post. Again, I'm in your shoes RG, and I get where your coming from, I just didn't convey that very well in the post.
 
RGMSU,

As far as comparing PA school to MD....I personally don't care to have that debate.

Hah, I thought this is what you were debating. I'm not sure you nor I know what you're even trying to get at here. First question - how many patients have you seen, and what is your contact with the medical profession that qualifies you to discern educational standards of medical professionals? Or is this all just academic for you, and your sole source of exposure is an internet website? Not exactly a wealth of experience in medicine. And, for the record, in medical school, we don't do anything in a cursory manner. When I said one lecture on lymphatic drainage, I said nothing about it being cursory. That's exactly the point about medical education - you cover a lot of detail very quickly, which is why measuring it in weeks really doesn't mean anything. The key question is - how much is covered in a week? A week in medical school is like a month in any other academic environment I've ever been in. Have you ever been in medical school? I doubt it.
 
I think you misunderstand what I was getting at. My point was in a sense law is correct. Medical school is on average 150 weeks, and PA school is around 112. That's fairly close in terms of length when you look at difference in schedules. But as you pointed out the contents are not even remotely similar, which I suppose I should have emphasized more in my original post. Again, I'm in your shoes RG, and I get where your coming from, I just didn't convey that very well in the post.

No, he isn't correct. If the level of education of a PA were equivalent to that of an MD, PAs wouldn't need to be supervised by MDs now would they? Again, I'm not sure what medical school he's referencing, but my program is definitely longer than 150 weeks. Medical school is four years, not three. That's longer than 150 weeks. Leaving some of the clinical years out somewhere. And, by the time you tack on residency, MD training becomes much longer than PA training. I can't believe we're even discussing this. It's plainly obvious. Throw in residency and seven years minimum is much longer than 112 weeks.
 
No, he isn't correct. If the level of education of a PA were equivalent to that of an MD, PAs wouldn't need to be supervised by MDs now would they? Again, I'm not sure what medical school he's referencing, but my program is definitely longer than 150 weeks. Medical school is four years, not three. That's longer than 150 weeks. Leaving some of the clinical years out somewhere. And, by the time you tack on residency, MD training becomes much longer than PA training. I can't believe we're even discussing this. It's plainly obvious. Throw in residency and seven years minimum is much longer than 112 weeks.

I think it's pretty evident in the title that Physician Assistants are in fact just that. This has no bearing on the intelligence of either a Physician or a PA. I'm sure there are PA's that are smarter than Physicians (and v.v) but they just preferred not to deal with all that extra paperwork/liability that Physicians have etc. I say this because sometimes that's what people infer that just because you say their training is "inferior".

Everyone has pride for their training and education, and that is excellent because you want a good education and you want to be confident when treating patients. That said everyone has their limits. Yes, Medical Students even physicians. If you don't learn those limits you will find yourself in trouble. A Cardiologist should not be mucking around with a brain tumor, they should refer to the neurologist. And if the physician is unsure about drug-drug interactions they should talk to the pharmacist etc. The human body is just too complicated for anyone to try to know everything and it's too important to take gambles if your unsure.

To get back to PA/Phys. argument. Physicians are trained much longer than PAs. I imagine that PAs are well trained as well, but Physicians get a much longer, more focused training (esp. residency trained Physicians). That said, PAs probably have a better job and a less stressful life. No, having a higher salary does not make your life better or your job. Just think of it this way, if someone get's 100k just to walk in once a month and say hi and another person is pulling 60-70 hour weeks and runing around and lifting heavy things etc. and making 160k-250k. The latter is not exactly a better job. It's just a higher paying one.

Now can we put this silly war to rest?
 
I think it's pretty evident in the title that Physician Assistants are in fact just that. This has no bearing on the intelligence of either a Physician or a PA. I'm sure there are PA's that are smarter than Physicians (and v.v) but they just preferred not to deal with all that extra paperwork/liability that Physicians have etc. I say this because sometimes that's what people infer that just because you say their training is "inferior".

Everyone has pride for their training and education, and that is excellent because you want a good education and you want to be confident when treating patients. That said everyone has their limits. Yes, Medical Students even physicians. If you don't learn those limits you will find yourself in trouble. A Cardiologist should not be mucking around with a brain tumor, they should refer to the neurologist. And if the physician is unsure about drug-drug interactions they should talk to the pharmacist etc. The human body is just too complicated for anyone to try to know everything and it's too important to take gambles if your unsure.

To get back to PA/Phys. argument. Physicians are trained much longer than PAs. I imagine that PAs are well trained as well, but Physicians get a much longer, more focused training (esp. residency trained Physicians). That said, PAs probably have a better job and a less stressful life. No, having a higher salary does not make your life better or your job. Just think of it this way, if someone get's 100k just to walk in once a month and say hi and another person is pulling 60-70 hour weeks and runing around and lifting heavy things etc. and making 160k-250k. The latter is not exactly a better job. It's just a higher paying one.

Now can we put this silly war to rest?

There is no silly war. You haven't said anything I disagree with. This was never about PA vs MD. I have had conversations with several PAs on here who will tell you I am not anti-PA. This was about someone claiming that a PA education was essentially equivalent to an MD education, which is not true. There's nothing wrong with being a PA, but there's nothing about it that is equivalent to being an MD.
 
No, he isn't correct. If the level of education of a PA were equivalent to that of an MD, PAs wouldn't need to be supervised by MDs now would they? Again, I'm not sure what medical school he's referencing, but my program is definitely longer than 150 weeks. Medical school is four years, not three. That's longer than 150 weeks. Leaving some of the clinical years out somewhere. And, by the time you tack on residency, MD training becomes much longer than PA training. I can't believe we're even discussing this. It's plainly obvious. Throw in residency and seven years minimum is much longer than 112 weeks.

Again, I never said this, I agree the level of education is no where near the same. The point of my post was simply using time isn't a good comparison of the two.
 
The AACN's Essentials of Doctoral Education for Advanced Nursing Practice specify that programs provide "a minimum of 1,000 hours of practice post-baccalaureate as part of a supervised academic program".

Eeek. So a new grad BSN prepared RN can get their DNP with only 1,000 clinical hours?! I guess that is why they are equivalent to a physician :confused:
 
The AACN's Essentials of Doctoral Education for Advanced Nursing Practice specify that programs provide "a minimum of 1,000 hours of practice post-baccalaureate as part of a supervised academic program".

Eeek. So a new grad BSN prepared RN can get their DNP with only 1,000 clinical hours?! I guess that is why they are equivalent to a physician :confused:


Laur, reading your posts is painful. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about as you AREN'T an RN or NP and have not gone through the training.

As far as people bad mouthing the DNP...not all NPs agree with it NOR are NPs getting it solely so they can be "equivalent" to physicians. Not EVERYONE wants to be an MD...sorry to crush your egos.

Most NPs don't view themselves as equivalent to MDs and see themselves rather as midlevel providers. I want a DNP personally for enrichment, NOT so I can call myself "doctor"...that would be a complete waste of money.

The fact of the matter is that "hours of training" doesn't equal a good provider, especially if a student is doing the bare minimum to get by. I'll admit I am a new grad RN that is applying to NP school, but there are some PGY-1s I deal with on a daily basis and I wonder how they EVER graduated from med school because they make the stupidest calls ever and make me have to call their senior/attending to get their mistakes corrected. As a new grad RN, I shouldn't have to catch mistakes or tell residents what to prescribe but I do...and it sucks.

That being said, 2nd and 3rd year residents are generally great and have realized they aren't God and have learned to appreciate the people they work with. I adore them :thumbup:

Anyhow, schools of nursing do teach "nursing theory" but honestly I can't remember any of it because it was all in one class in my first semester. During medical/surgical nursing, peds, ob, etc. you learn about medical conditions and the medicine, surgeries, etc. to treat them and the rationale (at least at my school). I mean, how can you function as an RN if you don't know how a medication is going to work physiologically and thus monitor for adverse reactions? What do you people think RNs/NPs LEARN in school?
 
What do you people think RNs/NPs LEARN in school?

I don't think anyone is calling rn training into question. rn's at the adn or bsn level are pretty much a known quantity; you know they will all know certain didactic material and procedures.
this is not true of np's because there are some really great programs out there that are 100% on campus with great clinicals, etc and then there are some that have 100% of the didactics online with rotations arranged by the student which may be of varying quality. if your uncle is your preceptor it's less likely they will fail you for a poor performance for example.
I have no problem with np's. what I do have a problem with is certain methods of educational delivery and assessment. a few pa programs are experimenting with a few online courses as part of their didactic yr and I am critical of that as well. a few pa programs require the students to arrange their own clinicals. not a big fan of that either.
 
I was just saying that 1,000 hours is the minimum for a BSN-DNP program, which seems very low in terms of clinical hours, especially since program don't appear to be high in the sciences either.

I'm not anti RNs or NPs. Trust me, I'm well aware of how hard ADN and BSN programs are. I'm standing here at work next to a new grad RN who I absolutely adore - she's wonderful. We just had a patient in the Trauma ICU crash and the Trauma NP responded. He was also absolutely wonderful. He said his background has a medic for 15 years helped out tremedously in his career as a trauma NP.

I realize I haven't been to RN or NP or PA school yet. So working in a hospital and talking to everyone I see and asking questions is as good as I can get for right now.
 
I don't think anyone is calling rn training into question. rn's at the adn or bsn level are pretty much a known quantity; you know they will all know certain didactic material and procedures.
this is not true of np's because there are some really great programs out there that are 100% on campus with great clinicals, etc and then there are some that have 100% of the didactics online with rotations arranged by the student which may be of varying quality. if your uncle is your preceptor it's less likely they will fail you for a poor performance for example.
I have no problem with np's. what I do have a problem with is certain methods of educational delivery and assessment. a few pa programs are experimenting with a few online courses as part of their didactic yr and I am critical of that as well. a few pa programs require the students to arrange their own clinicals. not a big fan of that either.

Hopefully, when a few PA programs go online, someone can do some research on their grads, especially if a program offers both routes.

I didn't have to pick my own clinical site but I chose to. How else could I select "US soil" in a foreign island country, lol!
 
There is at least one online PA program... UW-Madison. It would be interesting to compare their campus based graduates with their distance learning based graduates.

From the website:
The traditional program consists of twenty-four months of full-time didactic and clinical instruction and requires campus residency. Traditional students pay full-time university tuition.
The distance education option extends the length of the program by one year and consists of 36 months of didactic study and clinical instruction. The didactic component is completed over the course of 24 months. Distance students spend the first summer in residence on the Madison campus and return to campus twice each semester for 2-3 days. The balance of didactic instruction is completed on a part-time basis in the student's home community through distance modalities. The clinical component consists of 9 months of full-time, community- based clinical instruction. While every effort will be made to place students in clinical sites near their home communities, final decisions for placement will be based on availability of qualified preceptors. Distance students will pay university tuition based on their part-time or full-time status.​
 
That is a super long road to becoming a nonphysician healthcare worker...why dont you just go to med school?
 
Top