Pa :np

[DNPDoctor]

That is a super long road to becoming a nonphysician healthcare worker...why dont you just go to med school?

This should be asked to all the people browsing the pre-allopathic forum.

Besides, some people enjoy working as a mid level practitioner.

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[TRN1983]

Don't measure in years....I know med students must be smarter than that. PA school's average 111 weeks vs med school average 150 weeks. When you break it down into hours of training, it gets even closer.

Of course, this doesn't include the post doctorate training of a med student...nor the post graduate experiential learning of a PA.

Why don't we measure hours as you suggest?

Fam Prac physician ~ 12,000 clinical hours just in residency, ~4,000 hrs in clinical yrs as a med student. Surgeons are hitting ~ 30,000 + hrs.

PA ~ 1,000 & DNP ~ 300-500.

That doesn't even get into the difference in the detail of training, type of training, etc. You can guaran-damn-tee yerself that the discussion a physician has with a med student / resident is going to be completely different from what he has with a PA or NP because the physician expects something different from the med student / resident. As a result, all the "time" you can imagine providing someone with still won't give an NP or PA the same level of training / knowledge that a physician has received.

 

[TRN1983]

As somebody doing med school, I can tell you you can't speed up the medical school curriculum. The fact that the didactic portion of PA school is shorter proves that they are leaving stuff out, not that they are going faster and covering the same material. Trust me, if you were covering all the material we're covering and trying to do it faster, you wouldn't want to be anywhere near this process. There's a difference between skimming over the top and going into detail. A lot of times, I wish we did more skimming over the top around here.

Amen. Med students are quite literally the brightest, hardest working group of students you'll find. Med school admissions stat's say it all. And, we're all essentially maxed out with material all the time... if we picked up the pace by even 10% or so, I'd say many med students would start folding. Anybody who would try to convince themselves their PA/NP school is just getting through the same material faster is absolutely fooling themselves.

 

[medic25]

Why don't we measure hours as you suggest?

Fam Prac physician ~ 12,000 clinical hours just in residency, ~4,000 hrs in clinical yrs as a med student. Surgeons are hitting ~ 30,000 + hrs.

PA ~ 1,000 & DNP ~ 300-500.

T

I'd be interested to hear where you came up with the "1000 hours" figure for a PA student. I had ~2800 hours of clinical rotations as a PA student, which is a fairly average figure.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

I'd be interested to hear where you came up with the "1000 hours" figure for a PA student. I had ~2800 hours of clinical rotations as a PA student, which is a fairly average figure.

So would I. I had 1,000 hours as an ADN nursing student. I did my surgical rotation with a PA student who was working with one of the physicians. The PA student was pulling 12+ hour days, nearly every day of the week. Comparing experiences, I would say the hours do not quite add up as stated. Much as I hate to praise one of nursing's greatest enemies, just under the physician, I have to call Bravo Sierra on the 1,000 hour statement.

 

[chimichanga]

...I had 1,000 hours as an ADN nursing student...

No way...I have taught at the BSN and ADN levels...120 hours MAX/semester...

adn=4 semesters: 480 hrs
BSN=5 semesters: 600 hrs

please explain

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

No way...I have taught at the BSN and ADN levels...120 hours MAX/semester...

adn=4 semesters: 480 hrs
BSN=5 semesters: 600 hrs

please explain

12 clinical weeks a semester. We did 16 hours a week plus a 4 hour patient workup a week. This is about 20 hours a week. 20 times 12 is 240 hours a semester. Four semesters. 240 times 4 is 960.

I agree with the hours you posted above however. Current nursing students tell me they are only doing one clinical day a week.

 

[goingballistic]

Amen. Med students are quite literally the brightest, hardest working group of students you'll find.

No way. You have many top students in other fields. Not everyone is interested in medicine. In fact, many med students can't even do the math to complete an ugrad program in math or do well in the pre-reqs to get into an engineering program. To think they could complete a phd in one of the physical sciences is ridiculous. Also, it is even harder to get into clinical psych.

 

[physicsnerd42]

Amen. Med students are quite literally the brightest, hardest working group of students you'll find. Med school admissions stat's say it all.

Yeah, I call BS on this. Yeah, med students are smart. Yeah, med school requires a lot of time. The first two years of med school, at least (which I completed), don't require a huge amount of thinking. There is a lot to know but none of it is at all conceptually difficult. I can tell you that I've worked harder (and had to think more) in my graduate engineering classes than in my med school classes. Also, I definitely don't get the impression that the med students are a lot "brighter" or "harder working" than the grad students I'm around. There are frighteningly intelligent people and people who seem to have barely finished college in BOTH programs.

Yeah, med school requires a lot of work, but let's not pretend that medical education is the Olympus Mons of the academic solar system.

 

[zenman]

Yeah, I call BS on this. Yeah, med students are smart. Yeah, med school requires a lot of time. The first two years of med school, at least (which I completed), don't require a huge amount of thinking.

Yeah, med school requires a lot of work, but let's not pretend that medical education is the Olympus Mons of the academic solar system.

This reminds me of a faculty meeting once where new faculty were introduced at the beginning of the year. This guy with two Ph.D.s (one in astrophysics and I can't remember the other) is introduced and he stands up. I turn around to see this guy in blue jeans and wrinkled white T-shirt and long uncombed hair. I'm sure he was way up there in some solar system and was probably too smart to waste time with basic hygiene issues!

 

[BruceBanner]

This thread is a great example of how everyone thinks their respective field is more difficult/strenuous/rigorous/elite than all the others.

PA school is NOT 2/3 med school in half the time. That's impossible. You could say 1/2 med in 1/2 the time; and that would be correct, but they aren't training doctors. They serve a different function.

Same with NPs, although I will say EVERY NP I have ever met thinks they are the best/brightest/most qualified mid-levels ever to get licensed. IMO they are glorified nurses with a prescription pad. And they **** on PA programs to boot, claiming they are inferior.

I haven't noticed this so much in the basic science fields but everyone in medicine has an axe to grind on why they have the biggest balls.

 

[fab4fan]

12 clinical weeks a semester. We did 16 hours a week plus a 4 hour patient workup a week. This is about 20 hours a week. 20 times 12 is 240 hours a semester. Four semesters. 240 times 4 is 960.

I agree with the hours you posted above however. Current nursing students tell me they are only doing one clinical day a week.

Well, you are pretty old. They don't do that to kids these days.

 

[Zrchrn]

This thread is a great example of how everyone thinks their respective field is more difficult/strenuous/rigorous/elite than all the others.

PA school is NOT 2/3 med school in half the time. That's impossible. You could say 1/2 med in 1/2 the time; and that would be correct, but they aren't training doctors. They serve a different function.

Same with NPs, although I will say EVERY NP I have ever met thinks they are the best/brightest/most qualified mid-levels ever to get licensed. IMO they are glorified nurses with a prescription pad. And they **** on PA programs to boot, claiming they are inferior.

I haven't noticed this so much in the basic science fields but everyone in medicine has an axe to grind on why they have the biggest balls.

Yes your right. It's funny how you commented about this, then in the same post you turned around and aired your feelings about certain health professions.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

Well, you are pretty old. They don't do that to kids these days.

Ice cold, I am not that old. When people ask, I just tell them my wife is 47 and divert the attention away from me.

Hey Bruce: I have to take issue with you.

[/Insert Sarcasm]

I am a flight nurse and I completed an anesthesia residency, a critical care fellowship, and an emergency medicine fellowship during my three month flight orientation. In fact, my cojones take on more mass than the solar system and part of proxima centauri every time I step into my helicopter.

In fact, just the other day, I did a scene response to a nursing home to fly a patient who needed a cholecystectomy. How bad ass am I?

[\End Sarcasm]

 

[Zrchrn]

Hey Bruce: I have to take issue with you.

[/Insert Sarcasm]

I am a flight nurse and I completed an anesthesia residency, a critical care fellowship, and an emergency medicine fellowship during my three month flight orientation. In fact, my cojones take on more mass than the solar system and part of proxima centauri every time I step into my helicopter.

In fact, just the other day, I did a scene response to a nursing home to fly a patient who needed a cholecystectomy. How bad ass am I?

[\End Sarcasm]

That phrase is funny, because it involves two negative "adjectives" if you say someone is bad. That's an insult. If you say something is ass, that is an insult. So my response is you are very bad ass. Somewhere between feces and moldy cheese in "bad assedness".

 

[BruceBanner]

Yes your right. It's funny how you commented about this, then in the same post you turned around and aired your feelings about certain health professions.

Yes I was waiting for someone to comment on that. No one's inconsistencies can fly here at SDN!!

Seriously though, my ire for NPs mostly stems from the ones I have met, and their militant quest for independent practice. The few I know aren't bad people or even bad clinicians, just a little uppity. Plus the DNP degree is the biggest sham I've ever heard. And when people say things like this:

Much as I hate to praise one of nursing's greatest enemies...

(referring to PAs), you can see how both sides get territorial.

Almost everyone in healthcare gets indignant when their training/profession is challenged and holds some sanctimonious beliefs about their qualifications, and that's why threads started with a simple comparison question usually turn into turf wars. I think you said it best in a prior post:

The most important thing though, is at the end of the day these are all JOBS. You do it the best you can, you try to feel good about your job, you hopefully enjoy your work because it's a big part of your life. But when it's all said and done you go home to your hobbies and your family, and in any of these careers, your likely to be able to live fairly comfortably.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

Bruce, you clearly have no sense of humor or sarcasm if you really think I feel PA's are enemies. If anything, I am pretty clear about my thought of DNP's taking over the world. However, I am also going to scratch my head when I read things that do not add up.

My post was in response to a quote stating that PA's receive 1,000 hours of clinical experience. I stated I received 1,000 hours as a nursing student. A lowly little associates degree student at that, and my experience with PA students working all week long lead me to assume that PA's must receive much more than 1,000 hours. Simple math and observation IMHO.

This is actually how I see this entire debate. I do not have any dedicated organic chemistry courses and I see nothing wrong with stating the fact that most nurses will not take a year of organic chemistry as part of their educational experience. (No, I am not talking about chemistry for health care or survey of organic chemistry for health majors classes) My ego is not hurt because it is the truth. I have seen many NP educational models, and many links to NP educational models exist on this site. When you compare, these programs do seem to be a little lacking in the science department when compared to other clinicians.

 

[BruceBanner]

Bruce, you clearly have no sense of humor or sarcasm if you really think I feel PA's are enemies. If anything, I am pretty clear about my thought of DNP's taking over the world. However, I am also going to scratch my head when I read things that do not add up.

My post was in response to a quote stating that PA's receive 1,000 hours of clinical experience. I stated I received 1,000 hours as a nursing student. A lowly little associates degree student at that, and my experience with PA students working all week long lead me to assume that PA's must receive much more than 1,000 hours. Simple math and observation IMHO.

This is actually how I see this entire debate. I do not have any dedicated organic chemistry courses and I see nothing wrong with stating the fact that most nurses will not take a year of organic chemistry as part of their educational experience. (No, I am not talking about chemistry for health care or survey of organic chemistry for health majors classes) My ego is not hurt because it is the truth. I have seen many NP educational models, and many links to NP educational models exist on this site. When you compare, these programs do seem to be a little lacking in the science department when compared to other clinicians.

Your'e right--clearly my sense of humor is totally defunct because I didn't catch the tongue-in-cheek wit in a forum post.

Actually I never disagreed with any of your statements; NP education is lacking in the basic sciences. [humor] That's because nurses aren't smart enough to handle these classes in the first place! [/humor]

Really, though; I see this whole debate as another "who has the biggest balls" argument. "We have more training!!" "No, WE have more training!" "Nursing is better!!!" "No, MEDICINE is better!!"

Some people came out and called a spade a spade in regards to NP training discrepancies (and the whole autonomous practice BS), and the nursing contingency gets all flippant about it. I think when people start pulling the "as good as a doctor" card, toes get stepped on and naturally MD/DO's step in and say "no, you guys aren't equivalent to doctors." That is why there is so much dissent in regards to NPs, because they have been so vocal about being not only capable but entitled to work w/o physician supervision.

I think it's also worth noting that this debate really only occurs on the forums.

 

[CuriousMe6987]

No way...I have taught at the BSN and ADN levels...120 hours MAX/semester...

adn=4 semesters: 480 hrs
BSN=5 semesters: 600 hrs

please explain

I'm currently in a BSN program (1 year prereqs, 3 years of program) and hope to someday be an FNP. I usually just lurk to learn more about other profession's perspectives (and I do get quite an eyeful around here at times).

I'm not sure which programs the above hours are for, but here's our breakdown (sophomore year is only 8 hours because we spend 8 hours/wk in the lab as well, learning our clinical skills on mannequins and high fidelity simulation mannequins):

Soph: 8hrs/week for a 10 week term x 3 terms: 240 hrs
Jr: 15 hrs/week for a 10 week term x3: 450 hrs
Sr: 15 hrs/week for one 10 week term: 150 hrs
Sr Preceptorship: 25-30 hrs/week for 2 10 wk terms: 500 - 600hrs

Total: 1340 - 1440 hrs


Between that and the coursework for my chem minor....well, they keep us pretty busy

 

[deleted6669]

My post was in response to a quote stating that PA's receive 1,000 hours of clinical experience. I stated I received 1,000 hours as a nursing student. A lowly little associates degree student at that, and my experience with PA students working all week long lead me to assume that PA's must receive much more than 1,000 hours. Simple math and observation IMHO.

FWIW the avg pa program has > 2000 clinical hrs. my clinical yr was actually 54 weeks of 60+ hrs/week( with trauma surgery > 100 hrs/week) because I opted to do mostly hospital based rotations. the second yr of pa school is often compared to the ms3 yr as the students are expected to keep the same hrs and meet the same standards and responsibilities as the med students on the services with which they rotate.my program(taught at a medical school) scheduled pa students and medical students interchangeably on rotations.

 

[bradt9881]

FWIW the avg pa program has > 2000 clinical hrs. my clinical yr was actually 54 weeks of 60+ hrs/week( with trauma surgery > 100 hrs/week) because I opted to do mostly hospital based rotations. the second yr of pa school is often compared to the ms3 yr as the students are expected to keep the same hrs and meet the same standards and responsibilities as the med students on the services with which they rotate.my program(taught at a medical school) scheduled pa students and medical students interchangeably on rotations.

And mine was 15 months long, with only a three week X-mas break. Even if you underestimate it at 40 hours a week, thats 61 weeks x 40 hours/week = over 2400 hours.

I know of no PA program with only a 1000 hours clinicals....