That is a super long road to becoming a nonphysician healthcare worker...why dont you just go to med school?
This should be asked to all the people browsing the pre-allopathic forum.
Besides, some people enjoy working as a mid level practitioner.
That is a super long road to becoming a nonphysician healthcare worker...why dont you just go to med school?
Why don't we measure hours as you suggest?Don't measure in years....I know med students must be smarter than that. PA school's average 111 weeks vs med school average 150 weeks. When you break it down into hours of training, it gets even closer.
Of course, this doesn't include the post doctorate training of a med student...nor the post graduate experiential learning of a PA.
Amen. Med students are quite literally the brightest, hardest working group of students you'll find. Med school admissions stat's say it all. And, we're all essentially maxed out with material all the time... if we picked up the pace by even 10% or so, I'd say many med students would start folding. Anybody who would try to convince themselves their PA/NP school is just getting through the same material faster is absolutely fooling themselves.As somebody doing med school, I can tell you you can't speed up the medical school curriculum. The fact that the didactic portion of PA school is shorter proves that they are leaving stuff out, not that they are going faster and covering the same material. Trust me, if you were covering all the material we're covering and trying to do it faster, you wouldn't want to be anywhere near this process. There's a difference between skimming over the top and going into detail. A lot of times, I wish we did more skimming over the top around here.
Why don't we measure hours as you suggest?
Fam Prac physician ~ 12,000 clinical hours just in residency, ~4,000 hrs in clinical yrs as a med student. Surgeons are hitting ~ 30,000 + hrs.
PA ~ 1,000 & DNP ~ 300-500.
T
I'd be interested to hear where you came up with the "1000 hours" figure for a PA student. I had ~2800 hours of clinical rotations as a PA student, which is a fairly average figure.
...I had 1,000 hours as an ADN nursing student...
No way...I have taught at the BSN and ADN levels...120 hours MAX/semester...
adn=4 semesters: 480 hrs
BSN=5 semesters: 600 hrs
please explain
Amen. Med students are quite literally the brightest, hardest working group of students you'll find.
Amen. Med students are quite literally the brightest, hardest working group of students you'll find. Med school admissions stat's say it all.
Yeah, I call BS on this. Yeah, med students are smart. Yeah, med school requires a lot of time. The first two years of med school, at least (which I completed), don't require a huge amount of thinking.
Yeah, med school requires a lot of work, but let's not pretend that medical education is the Olympus Mons of the academic solar system.
12 clinical weeks a semester. We did 16 hours a week plus a 4 hour patient workup a week. This is about 20 hours a week. 20 times 12 is 240 hours a semester. Four semesters. 240 times 4 is 960.
I agree with the hours you posted above however. Current nursing students tell me they are only doing one clinical day a week.
This thread is a great example of how everyone thinks their respective field is more difficult/strenuous/rigorous/elite than all the others.
PA school is NOT 2/3 med school in half the time. That's impossible. You could say 1/2 med in 1/2 the time; and that would be correct, but they aren't training doctors. They serve a different function.
Same with NPs, although I will say EVERY NP I have ever met thinks they are the best/brightest/most qualified mid-levels ever to get licensed. IMO they are glorified nurses with a prescription pad. And they **** on PA programs to boot, claiming they are inferior.
I haven't noticed this so much in the basic science fields but everyone in medicine has an axe to grind on why they have the biggest balls.
Well, you are pretty old. They don't do that to kids these days.
That phrase is funny, because it involves two negative "adjectives" if you say someone is bad. That's an insult. If you say something is ass, that is an insult. So my response is you are very bad ass. Somewhere between feces and moldy cheese in "bad assedness".Hey Bruce: I have to take issue with you.
[/Insert Sarcasm]
I am a flight nurse and I completed an anesthesia residency, a critical care fellowship, and an emergency medicine fellowship during my three month flight orientation. In fact, my cojones take on more mass than the solar system and part of proxima centauri every time I step into my helicopter.
In fact, just the other day, I did a scene response to a nursing home to fly a patient who needed a cholecystectomy. How bad ass am I?
[\End Sarcasm]
Yes your right. It's funny how you commented about this, then in the same post you turned around and aired your feelings about certain health professions.
(referring to PAs), you can see how both sides get territorial.Paseo Del Norte said:Much as I hate to praise one of nursing's greatest enemies...
Zrchrn said:The most important thing though, is at the end of the day these are all JOBS. You do it the best you can, you try to feel good about your job, you hopefully enjoy your work because it's a big part of your life. But when it's all said and done you go home to your hobbies and your family, and in any of these careers, your likely to be able to live fairly comfortably.
Bruce, you clearly have no sense of humor or sarcasm if you really think I feel PA's are enemies. If anything, I am pretty clear about my thought of DNP's taking over the world. However, I am also going to scratch my head when I read things that do not add up.
My post was in response to a quote stating that PA's receive 1,000 hours of clinical experience. I stated I received 1,000 hours as a nursing student. A lowly little associates degree student at that, and my experience with PA students working all week long lead me to assume that PA's must receive much more than 1,000 hours. Simple math and observation IMHO.
This is actually how I see this entire debate. I do not have any dedicated organic chemistry courses and I see nothing wrong with stating the fact that most nurses will not take a year of organic chemistry as part of their educational experience. (No, I am not talking about chemistry for health care or survey of organic chemistry for health majors classes) My ego is not hurt because it is the truth. I have seen many NP educational models, and many links to NP educational models exist on this site. When you compare, these programs do seem to be a little lacking in the science department when compared to other clinicians.
No way...I have taught at the BSN and ADN levels...120 hours MAX/semester...
adn=4 semesters: 480 hrs
BSN=5 semesters: 600 hrs
please explain
FWIW the avg pa program has > 2000 clinical hrs. my clinical yr was actually 54 weeks of 60+ hrs/week( with trauma surgery > 100 hrs/week) because I opted to do mostly hospital based rotations. the second yr of pa school is often compared to the ms3 yr as the students are expected to keep the same hrs and meet the same standards and responsibilities as the med students on the services with which they rotate.my program(taught at a medical school) scheduled pa students and medical students interchangeably on rotations.My post was in response to a quote stating that PA's receive 1,000 hours of clinical experience. I stated I received 1,000 hours as a nursing student. A lowly little associates degree student at that, and my experience with PA students working all week long lead me to assume that PA's must receive much more than 1,000 hours. Simple math and observation IMHO.
FWIW the avg pa program has > 2000 clinical hrs. my clinical yr was actually 54 weeks of 60+ hrs/week( with trauma surgery > 100 hrs/week) because I opted to do mostly hospital based rotations. the second yr of pa school is often compared to the ms3 yr as the students are expected to keep the same hrs and meet the same standards and responsibilities as the med students on the services with which they rotate.my program(taught at a medical school) scheduled pa students and medical students interchangeably on rotations.