PA or MD Path? (My situation)

[PsychPop]

Hi guys just posting to try and get some incite from anyone willing!
Quick facts about me: 22 yrs old, white ,male, Psych major undergrad.

So I am currently what my shadowed family medicine doc likes to call Pre-pre-med as I have not yet taken any pre-med courses.
I am going into my last year in undergrad as a psych major; I originally was set on being a marriage and family therapist looking to pursue a masters but I had a change of heart as I had got to see what each job entails to some degree (I interned for a MFT for a summer). I have been trying to do my best reading into the differences between the path of a PA and an MD/DO and from what I can tell so far, they are both providers but the PA works under a doctor's license. A doctor must attend medical school for four years then go to a 3-7 year residency which a PA does not have to do. Doctors are more educated and can earn much more but the opportunity cost is far higher.
I am a California resident and my goal is to attend a school here as I wish to be close to my family while I attend school for their support.
I am no doubt a non-trad as I am a psych major with a low gpa of 3.0 and no sciences, I understand I must spend at least two years already taking all the pre-meds and acing them as well as getting volunteer and shadow hours of which I luckily have already began this summer.
I should have 100 hrs in the ED and 50 hrs of shadowing with an MD and a PA. I also have research that will be published next spring regarding coparenting.

So, I have a long road ahead of me, in the end I want to be a provider and have patient interaction and be able to create treatment plans which PA and MD can do.
My big question is considering the future of medicine and job outlook and my status, what makes more sense?
Thanks!

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[FiremedicMike]

This is an extremely personal choice and I am going to give you my OPINION. For full disclosure I’m nearing 40 and committed to my pension for another 6 years, I’ve come to terms with the thought that medical school at 46 just isn’t in the cards for me. I consider myself, at this point to be pre-midlevel - likely headed to NP school.

Again, this is my opinion based on my own desires. If I was 22, looking at PA vs MD, I’d go for MD/DO every day and twice on Sunday. I don’t understand why PA pre-reqs have become as intense as they have, but PA school requires nearly the same thing as medical school minus an MCAT. I just can’t see why folks would go through 2-4 years of intense hard science classes and then not just take the MCAT and go for broke.

But again, that’s my opinion based on my personality and is likely subconsciously influenced by the disappointment that I won’t ever be a doctor.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Hi, I am also a former psych major/career changer applying to MD schools this cycle.

From what I understand, PA school can often be harder to get into than medical school. There's no expectation for MD/DO applications that you'll have had paid clinical experience, but I understand that this is really common/mandatory for PA school (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

I know lots of pre-meds who were initially pursuing PA, but didn't have any certifications that would allow them to obtain paid clinical experience. Once they did the math as to how long a certification + thousands of hours of paid clinical work would take, they realized medical school would actually be easier. YMMV.

If you can ace your pre-med coursework and obtain a 510+ on the MCAT, you'll likely be OK for MD. Come post over in the non-traditional pre-med forum if you'd like to know more about MD/DO as a nontraditional career changer. Good luck.

 

[PsychPop]

This is an extremely personal choice and I am going to give you my OPINION. For full disclosure I’m nearing 40 and committed to my pension for another 6 years, I’ve come to terms with the thought that medical school at 46 just isn’t in the cards for me. I consider myself, at this point to be pre-midlevel - likely headed to NP school.

Again, this is my opinion based on my own desires. If I was 22, looking at PA vs MD, I’d go for MD/DO every day and twice on Sunday. I don’t understand why PA pre-reqs have become as intense as they have, but PA school requires nearly the same thing as medical school minus an MCAT. I just can’t see why folks would go through 2-4 years of intense hard science classes and then not just take the MCAT and go for broke.

But again, that’s my opinion based on my personality and is likely subconsciously influenced by the disappointment that I won’t ever be a doctor.

Hey thanks for the fast response! You have a very good point on those pre-reqs as they are pretty much identical say I think for physics. I guess down the road I can simply try the MCAT and give it all I got and if I score a 510+ I will apply for MD/DO. Luckily I have sometime to ponder this decision as those darn pre-reqs will have to be done! Thanks again

 

[FiremedicMike]

Hey thanks for the fast response! You have a very good point on those pre-reqs as they are pretty much identical say I think for physics. I guess down the road I can simply try the MCAT and give it all I got and if I score a 510+ I will apply for MD/DO. Luckily I have sometime to ponder this decision as those darn pre-reqs will have to be done! Thanks again

Yep, you’re right about physics. The programs I’ve looked at don’t require physics, but do require a full year of a&p.

As a side note, I find physics to be the least interesting of the sciences.. I swear they just make up new units of measure when they can’t rectify an equation...

 

[Ho0v-man]

Hi,

I’m a third year med student who went back and forth a lot between the two paths and would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

PAs are very well trained and you could certainly practice in whatever field you want. In fact a big draw is the lateral mobility that the PA degree affords. For instance, as a PA in psychiatry if you get burnt out in psychiatry you can just go work in urgent care, hospitalist, etc. If a psychiatrist gets burnt out in psychiatry, well...too bad because you’re a psychiatrist and your stuck.

The downside being that you’ll never really be the expert on anything. At least not officially. One of the reasons I went to med school is that I worked with an awesome PA who knew exactly what he was doing, but to do right by his patients (and cover his butt) he still had to run certain stuff by the doc. I’m sure I wouldn’t mind that starting out, but it would get old to me and I’m pretty sure that would make me a crappy PA.

Another downside for me was just knowing how much docs with way more training can still mess up. I feel like I’d be even more terrified of no knowing what I don’t know that I’d never sleep at night.

For MD/DO path, the pros are obvious. More autonomy, more pay, more prestige (whatever). Being the expert in your field and not needing (requiring) hand holding in your field.

The cons are big though. Debt, opportunity cost associated with crazy long training, and just overall more competitive to get in. Not to mention the fact that if you struggle in PA school and barely survive, you can still do any field. If you do the same in med school, you’re very limited in what you can pursue. The biggest con for you is location. Getting accepted to med school in California is rough even by the already rough standards anywhere else. You should expect to move away from home and even out of state. Most people simply can’t be geographically restricted during their training.

Good luck!

 

[PsychPop]

Hi,

I’m a third year med student who went back and forth a lot between the two paths and would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

PAs are very well trained and you could certainly practice in whatever field you want. In fact a big draw is the lateral mobility that the PA degree affords. For instance, as a PA in psychiatry if you get burnt out in psychiatry you can just go work in urgent care, hospitalist, etc. If a psychiatrist gets burnt out in psychiatry, well...too bad because you’re a psychiatrist and your stuck.

The downside being that you’ll never really be the expert on anything. At least not officially. One of the reasons I went to med school is that I worked with an awesome PA who knew exactly what he was doing, but to do right by his patients (and cover his butt) he still had to run certain stuff by the doc. I’m sure I wouldn’t mind that starting out, but it would get old to me and I’m pretty sure that would make me a crappy PA.

Another downside for me was just knowing how much docs with way more training can still mess up. I feel like I’d be even more terrified of no knowing what I don’t know that I’d never sleep at night.

For MD/DO path, the pros are obvious. More autonomy, more pay, more prestige (whatever). Being the expert in your field and not needing (requiring) hand holding in your field.

The cons are big though. Debt, opportunity cost associated with crazy long training, and just overall more competitive to get in. Not to mention the fact that if you struggle in PA school and barely survive, you can still do any field. If you do the same in med school, you’re very limited in what you can pursue. The biggest con for you is location. Getting accepted to med school in California is rough even by the already rough standards anywhere else. You should expect to move away from home and even out of state. Most people simply can’t be geographically restricted during their training.

Good luck!

Thanks for responding! It's unfortunate but yes most likely I will have to look into OOS schools as getting into California as a non-trad white male won't be easy at all...I will have to play on my life experiences and ECs. I do have a pretty interesting story regarding my initial exposure to a hospital as at 19 I had my appendix rupture and I chose to wait 18hrs after the fact to call the paramedics. I thought it was the stomach flu but when I was literally about to blackout I made the call and I am glad I did. I got to the hospital at midnight and did not receive a second look until about 4am (they most likely thought I was just a drunk college student as they pulled me from the dorms). Then upon a CT scan the staff realized what was really going on (puss on most organs) and immediately set me up for surgery. The initial surgery was done laparoscopically but then a week later I had intense pain in my abdomen again and the pain meds were doing no work to stop it; I went back in and begged for another scan and finally they did realizing that I had scar tissue causing a bowel obstruction! So you guessed it, I got more surgery done this time with a large median incision down the abdomen. Thus earning myself another week in the hospital and the recovery was tough with 25lbs lost and 60% of my muscle mass gone. I had to teach my body to walk again (not fun). Anyways the point is, I have been through the ringer and I know what it is like to have a complication and be clueless and scared for my life, I know what it is like to have to trust a physician and his/her team to save my life. I think this experience although awful and horrifying will help me one day be a more empathetic and cautious healthcare provider. Thanks for reading!

 

[PineappleHead13]

I was in a somewhat similar position when I graduated. I was a psych/neuro double major who couldn't decide what to do with my life. I was premed for the first half of undergrad until I ended up doing poorly in a lot of pre-reqs. After that, I leaned towards psych and applied to PsyD and mental health counseling masters programs in my senior year. Put down a deposit on a program. Changed my mind last minute. Talked myself out of rejoining the premed track because my GPA was a mediocre 3.6 and instead went for PA. I'm currently a PA student and honestly often wish I had went the extra mile to go for med school. You're still young, and the pre-req courses are so similar. IMO you might as well go all in and push for med school.

 

[pamac]

I was in a somewhat similar position when I graduated. I was a psych/neuro double major who couldn't decide what to do with my life. I was premed for the first half of undergrad until I ended up doing poorly in a lot of pre-reqs. After that, I leaned towards psych and applied to PsyD and mental health counseling masters programs in my senior year. Put down a deposit on a program. Changed my mind last minute. Talked myself out of rejoining the premed track because my GPA was a mediocre 3.6 and instead went for PA. I'm currently a PA student and honestly often wish I had went the extra mile to go for med school. You're still young, and the pre-req courses are so similar. IMO you might as well go all in and push for med school.

I feel like a 3.6 could get someone into medical school. A lot of folks drop off because of how retakes are factored in, but that might not have even been a problem for you. It can be hard if you bomb the prerequisite though, so I hear what you are saying.

 

[MidwestPAC]

I was in a somewhat similar position when I graduated. I was a psych/neuro double major who couldn't decide what to do with my life. I was premed for the first half of undergrad until I ended up doing poorly in a lot of pre-reqs. After that, I leaned towards psych and applied to PsyD and mental health counseling masters programs in my senior year. Put down a deposit on a program. Changed my mind last minute. Talked myself out of rejoining the premed track because my GPA was a mediocre 3.6 and instead went for PA. I'm currently a PA student and honestly often wish I had went the extra mile to go for med school. You're still young, and the pre-req courses are so similar. IMO you might as well go all in and push for med school.

But one has to look at what they want in their career. Every day I have thought about going back to medical school because of the laws and BS we put up with from patients or other providers/doctors as being a PA or NP. Then I look at the big picture and say to myself, I live in a very low COL, make a little over $100,000 per year with great benefits and time off (work ~35 hrs per week, never over 38 hrs per week) and have 1/2 day Fridays off. You cannot say that about many careers out there and I feel blessed daily. I will also (more than likely) be retired before in physician (age 55-60) would be with well over 1 million in retirement. Also, I pick up PRN gigs all the time (if I want to) and I make ~$190/hr over the last 3 years doing disability claims for the VA. I would really like to go back to medical school, but for all the reasons above I will be happy working < 40 hrs per week + PRN jobs (if I chose to work) and be retired earlier than most.

 

[PineappleHead13]

But one has to look at what they want in their career. Every day I have thought about going back to medical school because of the laws and BS we put up with from patients or other providers/doctors as being a PA or NP. Then I look at the big picture and say to myself, I live in a very low COL, make a little over $100,000 per year with great benefits and time off (work ~35 hrs per week, never over 38 hrs per week) and have 1/2 day Fridays off. You cannot say that about many careers out there and I feel blessed daily. I will also (more than likely) be retired before in physician (age 55-60) would be with well over 1 million in retirement. Also, I pick up PRN gigs all the time (if I want to) and I make ~$190/hr over the last 3 years doing disability claims for the VA. I would really like to go back to medical school, but for all the reasons above I will be happy working < 40 hrs per week + PRN jobs (if I chose to work) and be retired earlier than most.

Well then I hope I feel that way on the other side. I'm already just worrying about hitting a glass ceiling and feeling dissatisfied.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Well then I hope I feel that way on the other side. I'm already just worrying about hitting a glass ceiling and feeling dissatisfied.

You will hit a glass ceiling, but you can move on and/or pick up PRN jobs. Look at the long term. I truly do not want to work 50-60 hour weeks for 20-30 years. That is after residency when you really have no life (6 days a week x 12-14 hour days) for several years. No thanks.

 

[PsychPop]

You will hit a glass ceiling, but you can move on and/or pick up PRN jobs. Look at the long term. I truly do not want to work 50-60 hour weeks for 20-30 years. That is after residency when you really have no life (6 days a week x 12-14 hour days) for several years. No thanks.

To add to this, as an NP or PA is there a feeling of being a master of none being that you have less training then an MD? That being said the hours for NP/PA seem much better as you said plus the lateral mobility of positions.

 

[PsychPop]

At this point I am still completely torn between the two but given my situation and how competitive it is to become an MD, I am looking into PA soon as I will be shadowing a PA!

 

[MidwestPAC]

To add to this, as an NP or PA is there a feeling of being a master of none being that you have less training then an MD? That being said the hours for NP/PA seem much better as you said plus the lateral mobility of positions.

Well of course at first, but anyone can be a master at anything if they spend enough time training/reading/attending conference, etc.

 

[MidwestPAC]

At this point I am still completely torn between the two but given my situation and how competitive it is to become an MD, I am looking into PA soon as I will be shadowing a PA!

And you don't think PA school is competitive? My class had 2,000+ applicants for 60 seats. Of those 2,000 applicants 250 were interviewed. This is what our program director told us day 1. They were very proud of us and wanted to let us know what it meant to be sitting in that seat.

 

[pamac]

To add to this, as an NP or PA is there a feeling of being a master of none being that you have less training then an MD? That being said the hours for NP/PA seem much better as you said plus the lateral mobility of positions.

Well of course at first, but anyone can be a master at anything if they spend enough time training/reading/attending conference, etc.

Indeed, you can be the expert in any moment. Almost daily I get questions from other providers on what I suggest for them to prescribe for their patients, not to mention referrals from providers in other specialties. It’s more of a responsibility than a source of satisfaction. Conversely, I also find myself asking questions of PAs and NPs in other specialties, and at that moment, they are the hero’s to me.

What I will say is that if you are looking for satisfaction and respect, medical school is a long, tough way to obtain it. You have to decide what you feel comfortable giving up for that respect. I’ve seen too many folks lose marriages and miss out on important life events as the price for pursing respect and fortune. What value do I place on the respect of strangers, or piles of money, if it costs me the things close to me that are the most important.

I have a good friend who is a psychiatrist who is very talented, which is mostly due to his excellent training, as is the case of most humans. Has a lot of energy, and uses it to reach out and advocate in a way that he couldn’t do without the voice of authority that comes from being a physician. He’s driven by that joy he gets from that exuberance. He’s built for what he does, and loves every minute of his work, which carries over into his life outside of work. That works well for him. He’s a lot of fun, and offers great insight to a lot of people, including myself. I’m far less inclined to want the spotlight. We help about the same number of people on average. But to me, he’s a good example of a person built for medicine... someone who loves that journey. I wouldn’t have loved that journey, and certainly if I did it for money or respect. I think he would agree with me as well if I were to ask him.

And you don't think PA school is competitive? My class had 2,000+ applicants for 60 seats. Of those 2,000 applicants 250 were interviewed. This is what our program director told us day 1. They were very proud of us and wanted to let us know what it meant to be sitting in that seat.

PA school is certainly competitive. That’s why people typically apply for quite a few schools. If you apply for over 8 schools, you have a 50% chance of getting in to PA school, and people do just that, so I would recommend applying broadly, with an eye towards applying to schools that choose the profile of student that closely matches what profile you fall into, ie don’t apply to schools that want folks with lots of healthcare experience of you don’t have it. The good news is that of the 2000 people that theoretically apply to a school with 60 seats, at least half of them will find a seat elsewhere. And what I found when I was pursuing PA school, there were plenty of people that had no business applying to PA school who applied, so weeding a few out is a healthy thing.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Indeed, you can be the expert in any moment. Almost daily I get questions from other providers on what I suggest for them to prescribe for their patients, not to mention referrals from providers in other specialties. It’s more of a responsibility than a source of satisfaction. Conversely, I also find myself asking questions of PAs and NPs in other specialties, and at that moment, they are the hero’s to me.

What I will say is that if you are looking for satisfaction and respect, medical school is a long, tough way to obtain it. You have to decide what you feel comfortable giving up for that respect. I’ve seen too many folks lose marriages and miss out on important life events as the price for pursing respect and fortune. What value do I place on the respect of strangers, or piles of money, if it costs me the things close to me that are the most important.

I have a good friend who is a psychiatrist who is very talented, which is mostly due to his excellent training, as is the case of most humans. Has a lot of energy, and uses it to reach out and advocate in a way that he couldn’t do without the voice of authority that comes from being a physician. He’s driven by that joy he gets from that exuberance. He’s built for what he does, and loves every minute of his work, which carries over into his life outside of work. That works well for him. He’s a lot of fun, and offers great insight to a lot of people, including myself. I’m far less inclined to want the spotlight. We help about the same number of people on average. But to me, he’s a good example of a person built for medicine... someone who loves that journey. I wouldn’t have loved that journey, and certainly if I did it for money or respect. I think he would agree with me as well if I were to ask him.



PA school is certainly competitive. That’s why people typically apply for quite a few schools. If you apply for over 8 schools, you have a 50% chance of getting in to PA school, and people do just that, so I would recommend applying broadly, with an eye towards applying to schools that choose the profile of student that closely matches what profile you fall into, ie don’t apply to schools that want folks with lots of healthcare experience of you don’t have it. The good news is that of the 2000 people that theoretically apply to a school with 60 seats, at least half of them will find a seat elsewhere. And what I found when I was pursuing PA school, there were plenty of people that had no business applying to PA school who applied, so weeding a few out is a healthy thing.

Where do you get stats this this? If you apply to 8 schools you have a 50% chance? Please show me proof. Is this the same with MD/DO schools? How is this any different than any other professional school such as PT/OT/PharmD/DDS, are their chances the same (8 schools, 50% guarantee?). Lets see that proof.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

I would also just like to add a random input from a 2nd year DO Student:

In no other school MD/PA/NP (Even chiropractics to a point) do you receive the unique level of training in body mechanics and anatomy that osteopaths learn and how it fits in with so many other pathologies.

It's a fun break in a lot of my studies as you go from very intense pharmacology and physiology to be then learning really awesome biomechanical principles, and actually putting in the work to treating them with hands on stuff. These skills carry over to many other specialties in medicine, and you become extremely adept and comfortable touching patients and feeling for certain things, even if you're not directly treating them with Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM).

You may not be competitive enough for MD school, but DO school is a slight less reach with a 3.6 GPA. Just really make sure you can score a 510+ on the MCAT.

I was nervous going into medical school when I first got accepted. I thought my colleagues would be all Asian, super geniuses, with no lives, or personalities (Sorry I was super naive, don't mean to be stereotypical). I could not have been more surprised when I realized I was actually one of the older people in my class (26) and everyone else was young, vibrant, full of life, and all unique/awesome people.

It made the journey thus far much more manageable knowing I had such great classmates who were going through the struggle with me. I've met great friends and have had some great experiences, even with partying and traveling. It's all possible in medical school (at certain times) if you put in enough work to give yourself some lee-way.

Good luck.

 

[pamac]

Where do you get stats this this? If you apply to 8 schools you have a 50% chance? Please show me proof. Is this the same with MD/DO schools? How is this any different than any other professional school such as PT/OT/PharmD/DDS, are their chances the same (8 schools, 50% guarantee?). Lets see that proof.

Who Gets Into PA School in 2024? Here’s What You Need to Know | The Physician Assistant Life

Who is accepted into PA school and what does an average Physician Assistant School applicant who is admitted to PA school look like? Statistical breakdown of current PA Students admitted into Physician Assistant Programs around the country.

www.thepalife.com

Sorry, my bad... if you apply to 12 PA programs you have a 49% chance of getting in, which inflates the ranks of applicants at each school even more. Apply to one school and you have a 25% chance.

 

[PsychPop]

Where do you get stats this this? If you apply to 8 schools you have a 50% chance? Please show me proof. Is this the same with MD/DO schools? How is this any different than any other professional school such as PT/OT/PharmD/DDS, are their chances the same (8 schools, 50% guarantee?). Lets see that proof.

So from what I have seen and heard, applying to MD programs with a competitive app say 3.7gpa, 515 MCAT, and great ECs; out of the 15-20 schools you apply to only about 2-5 will accept you maybe... it has become incredibly competitive and only gets worse each year. Non-trads like myself will have to try really hard to stand out among the average stellar applicant and try to prove why we would be a better fit in said program with lower gpas. Luckily I think one big advantage of being a non-traditional student is you will have more time to create a robust app with much more clinical and volunteering exp than an average pre-med. But hey it is difficult for everyone no matter how good your app is honestly.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Who Gets Into PA School in 2024? Here’s What You Need to Know | The Physician Assistant Life

Who is accepted into PA school and what does an average Physician Assistant School applicant who is admitted to PA school look like? Statistical breakdown of current PA Students admitted into Physician Assistant Programs around the country.

www.thepalife.com

Sorry, my bad... if you apply to 12 PA programs you have a 49% chance of getting in, which inflates the ranks of applicants at each school even more. Apply to one school and you have a 25% chance.

Of course you would post that from a random PA. Where is the research on this? You are always drilling me with wanting to see the "research" and you give me this crap? HA!

 

[pamac]

Of course you would post that from a random PA. Where is the research on this? You are always drilling me with wanting to see the "research" and you give me this crap? HA!

They based it on AAPA stats. It hurts your narrative, so I can understand why it’s tough for you. But overall, around half of PA applicants that apply for programs in a given cycle get in, so the key aspect of the process is applying to enough programs to maximize the odds. Apparently 12 schools is that point. Beyond that, the odds don’t go up. I feel just fine with that. And that statistic of around half of applicants finding seats still shoots down your navel gazing. It means that fortunately, more than 3% of people that apply to PA schools get in. I pity the poor souls who were foolish enough to just apply at your program and make their odds 3/100.

 

[MidwestPAC]

They based it on AAPA stats. It hurts your narrative, so I can understand why it’s tough for you. But overall, around half of PA applicants that apply for programs in a given cycle get in, so the key aspect of the process is applying to enough programs to maximize the odds. Apparently 12 schools is that point. Beyond that, the odds don’t go up. I feel just fine with that. And that statistic of around half of applicants finding seats still shoots down your navel gazing. It means that fortunately, more than 3% of people that apply to PA schools get in. I pity the poor souls who were foolish enough to just apply at your program and make their odds 3/100.

You don't research well do you? It is the PAEA, straight from thepalife.com: Tables and data were sourced from: The 28'th and 29'th PAEA Annual Report.
I have looked through both the 28th and 29th report (see attached below so you can look) and also the PAEA Matriculating Student Survey. https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/2015-matriculating-student-survey.pdf

https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/28th-Annual-Report.pdf

https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/29th-Annual-Report.pdf

I cannot find anywhere that is states the stats from thepalife.com:
What are your chances of being accepted into PA school?

1. If you apply to one PA program - you have a 25% chance of getting in
2. If you apply to 12 programs (or more) - you have a 49% chance of getting in
3. Average number of PA programs applied to is 8

Interesting factoid: There is no additional benefit for applying to 12 programs or more!

Please show me proof in these reports that this statistics is valid. I cannot find proof.

 

[pamac]

I explained it all rather eloquently. But I’ll add to it... I imagine it’s like the birthday paradox... where if you have 23 people in a room, the odds are 50% that one person has the same birthday as you (and 99.9% if there are 70 people in the room). If you have x number of PA programs, and y number of seats, and z number of total applicants, then you can determine what probability of applications is best suited for your efforts at success. It would be interesting for me to sit down and hammer this problem out, but since I care very little about what you think, I’m going to use my time elsewhere. Any reader can look back and compare our posts and figure out who among the both of us seems to have a more reasonable presentation of cogent thought.

What I will say is that your suggestion that I’m “bad at research” because I didn’t care enough to distinguish between the AAPA and the PAEA, I’ll just refer back to the plethora of regular misstatements you’ve made over the last month all across these forums. I’m rhetorically smacking you down at every stage of our conversation, and you can’t keep up. I feel like Apollo Creed in Rocky I. I guess your goal isn’t to win, it’s just to go the distance.

 

[MidwestPAC]

I explained it all rather eloquently. But I’ll add to it... I imagine it’s like the birthday paradox... where if you have 23 people in a room, the odds are 50% that one person has the same birthday as you (and 99.9% if there are 70 people in the room). If you have x number of PA programs, and y number of seats, and z number of total applicants, then you can determine what probability of applications is best suited for your efforts at success. It would be interesting for me to sit down and hammer this problem out, but since I can care less about what you think, I’m going to use my time elsewhere. Any reader can look back and compare our posts and figure out who among the both of us seems to have a more reasonable presentation of cogent thought.

But the issue you are not thinking about is other people from other birthday parties coming over to join. So 15,000 students apply to the 242 PA schools and 1/4 (3,750) of those applied to the same schools (12 schools) then how do your odds change when more people are just applying to more schools? Just because some PA states this doesn't mean these are facts. You look on PA schools FAQs and most of them state a 4:1 (interviewed vs accepted students) and those interviewed are taking from a much bigger applicant pool.

 

[pamac]

But the issue you are not thinking about is other people from other birthday parties coming over to join. So 15,000 students apply to the 242 PA schools and 1/4 (3,750) of those applied to the same schools (12 schools) then how do your odds change when more people are just applying to more schools? Just because some PA states this doesn't mean these are facts. You look on PA schools FAQs and most of them state a 4:1 (interviewed vs accepted students) and those interviewed are taking from a much bigger applicant pool.

It’s your people that are throwing that information out there, not some NP. I’d think you’d be more inclined to believe stats and advice coming out of your own professional community, but I guess you are free to disregard. Here’s another great resource for Pre PAs that lays out some winning principles along the same lines:

https://beaphysicianassistant.com/blog/why-you-should-identify-target-pa-programs

Overall, the goal is not to be among the half or more of applicants that don’t have a seat waiting for them when the music stops. That’s why you try to cater your application to schools that have a tendency to recruit from folks that share your kind of profile (ie, if you have healthcare experience, you will wan to apply to schools that look really favorably upon healthcare experience). Conversely, you will not want to waste your time applying to a school that requires a lot of healthcare experience of you don’t have any. My guess is that your school you went to was one of the programs that has more liberal requirements for its applicants, and therefore gets tons of applications because folks see it as a safety school of sorts, which then becomes just a program that has a boatload of weak applicants, where the strong ones like yourself stand out. Not saying it is, I’m just saying that it seems like that could easily be the case.

So yes, there are a number of factors at play when it comes how to strategize your approach to getting in to school. The key is to maximize your appeal to a program, however you choose to do it. There will be a certain degree of luck, but I wouldn’t want to rely on it. If you can convince applicants that they should apply to fewer programs by attacking what other PAs have said, then I think you are doing a disservice. I don’t think many folks would buy into that anyway.

 

[MidwestPAC]

It’s your people that are throwing that information out there, not some NP. I’d think you’d be more inclined to believe stats and advice coming out of your own professional community, but I guess you are free to disregard. Here’s another great resource for Pre PAs that lays out some winning principles along the same lines:

https://beaphysicianassistant.com/blog/why-you-should-identify-target-pa-programs

Overall, the goal is not to be among the half or more of applicants that don’t have a seat waiting for them when the music stops. That’s why you try to cater your application to schools that have a tendency to recruit from folks that share your kind of profile (ie, if you have healthcare experience, you will wan to apply to schools that look really favorably upon healthcare experience). Conversely, you will not want to waste your time applying to a school that requires a lot of healthcare experience of you don’t have any. My guess is that your school you went to was one of the programs that has more liberal requirements for its applicants, and therefore gets tons of applications because folks see it as a safety school of sorts, which then becomes just a program that has a boatload of weak applicants, where the strong ones like yourself stand out. Not saying it is, I’m just saying that it seems like that could easily be the case.

So yes, there are a number of factors at play when it comes how to strategize your approach to getting in to school. The key is to maximize your appeal to a program, however you choose to do it. There will be a certain degree of luck, but I wouldn’t want to rely on it. If you can convince applicants that they should apply to fewer programs by attacking what other PAs have said, then I think you are doing a disservice. I don’t think many folks would buy into that anyway.

Again, whoever puts out the information doesn't matter to me (MD/DO/NP/PA/etc), there has to be evidence to support the claim. There is no evidence in the PAEA articles I posted that prove this point. The PA just stated that on his website. Do you believe everything you read on the internet? I need facts/proof/evidence, EBM is what we are trained in.

Please show where I stated for folks to apply to less schools. I stated a basic math equation that proves your "birthday point" wast not accurate in this case.

No my school was not liberal at all. My PA program is within the school of medicine and we have the same instructors and chair as the medical school students. It is also one of the best MD programs for family medicine out there. We had very strong students with tens of thousands of HCE with the average being 7 years of high level experience NOT CNA/MA/phlebotomist type of HCE. Good try anyways.

 

[pamac]

Again, whoever puts out the information doesn't matter to me (MD/DO/NP/PA/etc), there has to be evidence to support the claim. There is no evidence in the PAEA articles I posted that prove this point. The PA just stated that on his website. Do you believe everything you read on the internet? I need facts/proof/evidence, EBM is what we are trained in.

Please show where I stated for folks to apply to less schools. I stated a basic math equation that proves your "birthday point" wast not accurate in this case.

No my school was not liberal at all. My PA program is within the school of medicine and we have the same instructors and chair as the medical school students. It is also one of the best MD programs for family medicine out there. We had very strong students with tens of thousands of HCE with the average being 7 years of high level experience NOT CNA/MA/phlebotomist type of HCE. Good try anyways.

Let’s use your logic here:

I can’t believe what you said about your school because you won’t tell me what school it is. I need evidence to base your claim on.

Lol!

So about the “apply to 12 schools” rant you are trying to keep alive.... what are you arguing then? If one must apply to 12 PA programs to get to 50% odds of getting into PA school vs the 25% odds of getting in if you apply to one school, why wouldn’t someone want to operate with that approach? Again... what is behind what you are arguing?

What I’m saying is that I don’t care if you believe it, and I don’t care about going tit for tat to convince you. I’ve seen you either disregard proof in the past outright, or else not address proof and move in to other things to argue about because of the chip on your shoulder. I provided some links to very helpful blogs that I think will also help any pre PA far more than any advice you have given. And again, I simply lay out my case to the OP’s, who often seem much more inclined to engage with me both publicly and privately to me with follow up questions. And I’m happy to help. But by all means, carry on. You provide a contrast that drives folks away from your often harmful suggestions.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Let’s use your logic here:

I can’t believe what you said about your school because you won’t tell me what school it is. I need evidence to base your claim on.

Lol!

So about the “apply to 12 schools” rant you are trying to keep alive.... what are you arguing then? If one must apply to 12 PA programs to get to 50% odds of getting into PA school vs the 25% odds of getting in if you apply to one school, why wouldn’t someone want to operate with that approach? Again... what is behind what you are arguing?

What I’m saying is that I don’t care if you believe it, and I don’t care about going tit for tat to convince you. I’ve seen you either disregard proof in the past outright, or else not address proof and move in to other things to argue about because of the chip on your shoulder. I provided some links to very helpful blogs that I think will also help any pre PA far more than any advice you have given. And again, I simply lay out my case to the OP’s, who often seem much more inclined to engage with me both publicly and privately to me with follow up questions. And I’m happy to help. But by all means, carry on. You provide a contrast that drives folks away from your often harmful suggestions.

You want to "practice medicine" but call yourself "advanced practice nurse" so my chip is what do you nurses want? Nurse or medicine? You did not provide proof, I copied and pasted the links from the blog you posted and there is NO proof of these statistics. I copied the links so you can research yourself. So, if you want to practice medicine then we study EBM (evidence based medicine) which means I need proof. The point of the argument is you are trying to paint the picture that half the people that apply to PA school just get in. Trying to down play it that it is not really that hard to get in. Re-read your post to the OP.

 

[pamac]

These days, it’s more competitive than back when I applied in 2008 ish. It’s now over 30% overall. The notion is sound that one should apply broadly to take advantage of the 12 school/50% rule mentioned in the blogs. Like I said, the key is to not be the applicant that is left behind, so maximize your chances, because someone else is going to be maximizing theirs. It makes sense that your odds of getting in improve with more applications that you send out. The key question you seem to be arguing is where that improvement in odds tops out. Some folks have determined that after 12 programs, applicants aren’t getting any more bang for their buck from simply playing the numbers game. But the overall numbers alone should give folks some hope, because contrary to what you suggest, the odds overall of getting in aren’t like what you quote for your school. Your program supposedly had a 3 percent acceptance rate. Well, the acceptance rate overall nationally is over 10 times that, or 1 in 3. And according to some folks numbers that you refuse to accept, if you apply to up to 12 schools, you are looking at a 50/50 chance of getting in.

The other good thing is that the best students will have multiple acceptances, and can obviously only be going to one school. That opens up seats at the schools that they decline to attend.

 

[MidwestPAC]

These days, it’s more competitive than back when I applied in 2008 ish. It’s now over 30% overall. The notion is sound that one should apply broadly to take advantage of the 12 school/50% rule mentioned in the blogs. Like I said, the key is to not be the applicant that is left behind, so maximize your chances, because someone else is going to be maximizing theirs. It makes sense that your odds of getting in improve with more applications that you send out. The key question you seem to be arguing is where that improvement in odds tops out. Some folks have determined that after 12 programs, applicants aren’t getting any more bang for their buck from simply playing the numbers game. But the overall numbers alone should give folks some hope, because contrary to what you suggest, the odds overall of getting in aren’t like what you quote for your school. Your program supposedly had a 3 percent acceptance rate. Well, the acceptance rate overall nationally is over 10 times that, or 1 in 3. And according to some folks numbers that you refuse to accept, if you apply to up to 12 schools, you are looking at a 50/50 chance of getting in.

The other good thing is that the best students will have multiple acceptances, and can obviously only be going to one school. That opens up seats at the schools that they decline to attend.

You apparently are not reading correctly cause I am not even concerned about "where that improvement in odds tops out" my concern is you stating a fact that cannot be proved by research that it is 50%. That is my issue. You are trying to paint PA school as NP school (you apply you almost always get in), that is NOT true for PA school. I agree if you apply to 2 schools vs 12 schools your odds are greater (of course cause this is basic math), but there is no way it is 50%. Again, prove that fact or stop stating that fact cause there is no proof of it.

Everything I have read from other PAs that state their school stats are 3-5% acceptance rate, just like medical school. Where is the overall nationally 1:3 (33%) fact at, please show me that. Also, 33% and 50% are much different BTW.

https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Applicant-and-Matriculant-Data-from-CASPA.pdf

This is from the PAEA and CASPA (where most of the PA schools use to send your application through), there are some schools that don't use this so those stats are not in here.

Scroll through the PDF and go to page 16. This is broke into different parts but the stats I am proving are from 2015-2016: 25,593 applied to PA schools and 8,106 got in. So, 31.7% of the applicants got into a program. The stat we are discussing (and you state 50% chance of getting into PA school) are as followed: The average PA programs average matriculation rate was 6.2% (a little higher than I have thought, but still not 50%).

Now there should be nothing to discuss as this is directly from the PAEA and CASPA. Please stop stating the 50% thing from some random PA blog.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Who cares if PA school acceptance is 50%? Med school is like 60%. Does not matter.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Who cares if PA school acceptance is 50%? Med school is like 60%. Does not matter.

It does matter when you have a malignant person trying to make people think PA is just as easy to get into as NP school. Medical school is not 60%, show me those numbers.
https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Applicant-and-Matriculant-Data-from-CASPA.pdf
Look at PA school.
So your telling me that medical school is easy to get into?
Anyways why the he11 do you care med student. Shouldn't you be studying?

 

[Ho0v-man]

It does matter when you have a malignant person trying to make people think PA is just as easy to get into as NP school. Medical school is not 60%, show me those numbers.
https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Applicant-and-Matriculant-Data-from-CASPA.pdf
Look at PA school.
So your telling me that medical school is easy to get into?
Anyways why the he11 do you care med student. Shouldn't you be studying?

I don’t. Just bored at lunch and saw that this blew up. Everyone knows PA school is harder to get into and stay in than NP school. Anyone who says otherwise is just willfully ignorant.

 

[pamac]

It does matter when you have a malignant person trying to make people think PA is just as easy to get into as NP school.

Anyways why the he11 do you care med student. Shouldn't you be studying?

LOL!

In one breath: “It does matter when you have a malignant person trying to make people think PA is just as easy to get into as NP school.”

In another breath: “Anyways why the he11 do you care med student. Shouldn't you be studying?”

Keep bringing the hits with you, Midwest! Its fascinating to watch you self immolate! LOL!

 

[pamac]

Everything I have read from other PAs that state their school stats are 3-5% acceptance rate, just like medical school. The average PA programs average matriculation rate was 6.2%.

That’s the individual school acceptance rate. When you have individual acceptance rates that low, and a national acceptance rate at 1:3, what that suggests is that you have People applying to tons of schools. You aren’t extrapolating the data to draw the appropriate conclusion.

The navy seals take like 3 percent (or some super low number) of applicants. Thats an overall 3 percent acceptance rate. There aren’t more navies around for those people to go to. That’s a very elite group. However, if there are 30 different navies that SEAL candidates can throw their hat into the ring for, then you are dealing with a different kind of conclusion altogether. The fact is that with PA programs, everyone applies to multiple schools, but their butt can only end up in one seat, which frees up the others. Ultimately, for the whole group, there is a 30% or so acceptance rate. However, for the individual, your odds can go up and down based upon how many schools you apply for. So ultimately, your fate isn’t tied to the 30% acceptance rate for the group as a whole.

You aren’t tracking with the conversation very well. Whether that’s on purpose or incidental, it’s a problem.

 

[MidwestPAC]

LOL!

In one breath: “It does matter when you have a malignant person trying to make people think PA is just as easy to get into as NP school.”

In another breath: “Anyways why the he11 do you care med student. Shouldn't you be studying?”

Keep bringing the hits with you, Midwest! Its fascinating to watch you self immolate! LOL!

A comment is malignant when another profession is sticking their nose in our conversation that means nothing to them. Your malignant because your trying to warp peoples minds in thinking NP is = MD/DO.

I truly have nothing else to talk with you about. You are a thorn in my side and I am done.

Good luck in your career.

 

[MidwestPAC]

That’s the individual school acceptance rate. When you have individual acceptance rates that low, and a national acceptance rate at 1:3, what that suggests is that you have People applying to tons of schools. You aren’t extrapolating the data to draw the appropriate conclusion.

The navy seals take like 3 percent (or some super low number) of applicants. Thats an overall 3 percent acceptance rate. There aren’t more navies around for those people to go to. That’s a very elite group. However, if there are 30 different navies that SEAL candidates can throw their hat into the ring for, then you are dealing with a different kind of conclusion altogether. The fact is that with PA programs, everyone applies to multiple schools, but their butt can only end up in one seat, which frees up the others. Ultimately, for the whole group, there is a 30% or so acceptance rate. However, for the individual, your odds can go up and down based upon how many schools you apply for. So ultimately, your fate isn’t tied to the 30% acceptance rate for the group as a whole.

You aren’t tracking with the conversation very well. Whether that’s on purpose or incidental, it’s a problem.

Why do I care about the group as a single person. The average matriculation of PA schools were 6% in 2015-2016, I am sure if I wanted to waste more time I will find the newer statistics. Look at the individual school matriculation cause the student is the individual. If less people apply to PA school, it still doesn't mean they will take you, maybe you sucked at the interview or personal statement or you had too many Cs or whatever.

https://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/2015-by-the-numbers-program-report-30.pdf

See figure 12: shows a total of 8,147 new students reported for the 183 responding programs. Total enrollment has increased significantly over the past seven years, stimulated by increases in the number of programs and increased capacity of existing programs. Page 25/46. This is from 2015.

So, 8,147/183 = 44.5 students per school.

There are more seats and less seats in some programs. So those stats will change a bit based on the school but overall there is only a limited number of seats in PA school, unlike most NP schools where if you have hybrid classes or all online you can accept as many as you want, just at different "terms" or "semesters."

The enrollment is increasing yearly so it will be harder and harder to get in.

I am done with this. You continue to think whatever you want, but here are the facts, keep trying to twist them around.