PA school to MD

[Cmaj7th]

I reckon this is going to get flamed pretty hard but how common is this? I know people who don't make it into med school will go to grad school to boost their app, why not PA?

I figure you could work for a couple years after getting the masters while getting some valuable experience and paying off your loans. then you could apply and keep applying but have a career to fall back on.

even pre-meds who don't make it in medical school usually have pretty respectable GPAs by most standards. and with all the research and volunteering I think they'd make for some solid applicants if they took the couple extra PA classes.

and let me just say I have nothing but respect for the PA profession. but it seems advantageous for the pre-med who may have hit some bumps but still has the drive to pursue the MD.

I'm pursuing an AAS in CCEMTp and bachelors in EMS management just because I think it'd be fun. that combined with pre-med and I will have satisfied pre-pa. I would definitely consider using PA to bridge over if all else fails. would like to hear your thoughts!

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[ArkansasRanger]

I reckon this is going to get flamed pretty hard but how common is this? I know people who don't make it into med school will go to grad school to boost their app, why not PA?

I figure you could work for a couple years after getting the masters while getting some valuable experience and paying off your loans. then you could apply and keep applying but have a career to fall back on.

even pre-meds who don't make it in medical school usually have pretty respectable GPAs by most standards. and with all the research and volunteering I think they'd make for some solid applicants if they took the couple extra PA classes.

and let me just say I have nothing but respect for the PA profession. but it seems advantageous for the pre-med who may have hit some bumps but still has the drive to pursue the MD.

I'm pursuing an AAS in CCEMTp and bachelors in EMS management just because I think it'd be fun. that combined with pre-med and I will have satisfied pre-pa. I would definitely consider using PA to bridge over if all else fails. would like to hear your thoughts!

PA schools typically want work experience. I'm sure your clinical exposure would be helpful, but I don't think that's what most of them are looking for. If your grades aren't good enough to get into a medical school you're probably not going to get into a PA school. I don't know the stats, but a guy here named EMEDPA could tell you all that.

IF you could find and get into a PA program that yielded a B.S. degree or something, and that was your undergrad experience it'd probably be cool. Otherwise, it's probably not the best idea. Also, graduate programs are not, from what I gather, the best way to improve your package. Generally, you want to think along the lines of bribes.


Btw, I went to paramedic school nine years ago I think. What are they teaching to call it CCEMT-P now instead of just EMT-P. I thought the whole CC deal was a weekend class. Then again, I've been out of the game for a while, and my subscription to JEMS expired long ago.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well firstly a PA program costs 100k. A Master program costs maybe 10k, and most are funded( sometimes free or reduced price). So it'd be firstly a waste of cash. Secondly unless you actually practice as a PA for like 5 years your degree with be worthless and not help you at all. Not to mention after being a PA for 5 years you'll most likely want to just continue being a PA and not spend another 7 years in school.
So, its a waste of:
1. money
2. time
and will not help you at all.
Where as a normal masters degree will at least add some research to your application.
Oh yah, if your not familiar most PA schools require gpa's and gre scores which are relatively high, averages are like 3.5 and a good gre.

 

[orthomyxo]

well firstly a pa program costs 100k. A master program costs maybe 10k, and most are funded( sometimes free or reduced price). So it'd be firstly a waste of cash. Secondly unless you actually practice as a pa for like 5 years your degree with be worthless and not help you at all. Not to mention after being a pa for 5 years you'll most likely want to just continue being a pa and not spend another 7 years in school.
So, its a waste of:
1. Money
2. Time
and will not help you at all.
Where as a normal masters degree will at least add some research to your application.
Oh yah, if your not familiar most pa schools require gpa's and gre scores which are relatively high, averages are like 3.5 and a good gre.

+1

PA school is no walk in the park. The PA students at my school take gross anatomy and genetics with med students at Harvard.

 

[Cmaj7th]

I mistyped, the AAS is in EMT-p. through the EMS management degree you can enroll in a CCEMT-p program and a neo-natal transport program as well. I do plan on working as a part time medic (work service obligation for free tuition) the last three years and am maintaining a competitive GPA for medical school ( I don't plan to fail).

Serenade your argument is based on opinion not fact. I know there are people on this site who have gone from PA to MD. to think a PA with good grades would not be given preference over the 22 year old kid who spent his summers folding blankets in an ER seems absurd to me.

and why would not making a career out of a PA degree be worthless? is getting a masters in chemistry but not becoming a chemist worthless? I know several med students who did just this to get in.

ArkansasRanger I understand what you mean as I know how competitive PA schools are. however I think a person with a lot of legitimate healthcare experience and maybe a 3.3-3.4 could get into a PA school somewhere where as that might not be the case for an allopathic school which does not weigh experience as heavily.

again I'm only asking this out of curiosity. I do not plan on going such a round about path myself but it seems like a viable option for a certain group of people.

 

[d1ony5u5]

It's definitely no shortcut, and it requires a lot of effort. the 1st year is just as grinding as the basic science years in medschool. Then there is also the matter of being really costly. And after graduating, with the proper training you can make close to what an MD makes...

Summarizing, it's hard, it's costly, and when you get out there is no incentive to go through a similar thing again for the same practical rewards.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I mistyped, the AAS is in EMT-p. through the EMS management degree you can enroll in a CCEMT-p program and a neo-natal transport program as well. I do plan on working as a part time medic (work service obligation for free tuition) the last three years and am maintaining a competitive GPA for medical school ( I don't plan to fail).

Serenade your argument is based on opinion not fact. I know there are people on this site who have gone from PA to MD. to think a PA with good grades would not be given preference over the 22 year old kid who spent his summers folding blankets in an ER seems absurd to me.
Absurd or not, data does not correlate with this. Allied health professions usually don't get into medical school ( much lower rates then the 22 year olds who folded blankets at the ER).
and why would not making a career out of a PA degree be worthless? is getting a masters in chemistry but not becoming a chemist worthless? I know several med students who did just this to get in.
( As stated above, a masters in chemistry will cost you maybe at most 10k. It's a good source of research honestly. Not to mention you'll have to explain to the adcom why you took away a PA spot from someone who would have gone to work in the medical field which needs more workers.)
ArkansasRanger I understand what you mean as I know how competitive PA schools are. however I think a person with a lot of legitimate healthcare experience and maybe a 3.3-3.4 could get into a PA school somewhere where as that might not be the case for an allopathic school which does not weigh experience as heavily.
Not going to bother answering.
again I'm only asking this out of curiosity. I do not plan on going such a round about path myself but it seems like a viable option for a certain group of people.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

i agree with serenade. the people that go from PA to MD/DO don't go to PA school with that mentality. only go to PA school if you want to be a PA, otherwise, you're taking a spot away from someone who truly wants to be a PA.

 

[Cmaj7th]

again I do not plan on going to PA school as I do not want to be PA. but I fail to see the problem if someone wishes to do this.

I'm aware allied healthcare workers have a harder time getting in but I reckon most people entering these fields don't do so with medical school in mind therefor not keeping their GPAs competitive. I fail to see how an allied health worker with competitive GPA, MCATS, and volunteering would have a harder time entering medical school than anyone else.

I also don't agree with the "taking a spot" mentality. if that person could not get into PA school they simply weren't competitive enough and should not be sympathized with. who is to say how someone should use their education?

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

well if this situation doesn't even pertain to you, i disagree with you making this thread.

 

[Cmaj7th]

many of the threads on this board are posted for fun/curiosity. if you do not wish to offer insight on the topic then keep your opinions to yourself.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

and if you wish to disagree with EVERYONE just so you can flaunt your own ideas, get a life!

 

[Cmaj7th]

I can see this thread deteriorating into a pissing match already. although I may have disagreed with the posters I at least respect their arguments. you on the other hand have to resort to petty insults which are quite unwarranted IMO and completely irrelevant. noone is forcing you to participate in this discussion so if "get a life" is all you wish to contribute then how about you follow your own advice?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Ok i'll keep my statistics and data to myself. Because obviously hardline fact's are just opinions to you. Ok have a nice day.

Mod's please feel free to lock this post. The posters question has been answered. The point of this post is now void.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

again I do not plan on going to PA school as I do not want to be PA. but I fail to see the problem if someone wishes to do this.

I'm aware allied healthcare workers have a harder time getting in but I reckon most people entering these fields don't do so with medical school in mind therefor not keeping their GPAs competitive. I fail to see how an allied health worker with competitive GPA, MCATS, and volunteering would have a harder time entering medical school than anyone else.

I also don't agree with the "taking a spot" mentality. if that person could not get into PA school they simply weren't competitive enough and should not be sympathized with. who is to say how someone should use their education?

The only problem that you could encounter, outside the detriment to your own lifestyle and finances, is the question "So why did you spend the time and effort going to PA school only to have to redo all of it in order to become a doctor?"

If your reason was sound it may not be a problem. It would be less of a problem, or so it would seem, if you had worked as a PA for some "reasonable" period of time before beginning the application process. I'm all for it if that's what you want to do although I know you've said you haven't. I'm sure we all mull over what to do if our application doesn't come out as shiney as we had hoped. If this were in fact a legitimate way to go about things I'm sure we'd all have heard and read about others doing it. Generally, if you've thought of it then someone else has.

 

[Cmaj7th]

what statistical evidence have you quoted? I'd love to give it a read. you have not provided any concrete evidence to support your claims that allied health workers with equal stats as other majors have a harder time gaining acceptance.

as far as I'm concerned you have only provided opinions.

 

[Cmaj7th]

ArkansasRanger you made a good point.

and serenade feel free to not continue in this discussion if you do not like my topic. your arrogance will not be missed.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

haha what... arkansas just restated what has already been said.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

http://www.knox.edu/statistics.xml < I'd like to also state that these statistics are basically truisms on this forum>
enjoy.

 

[Cmaj7th]

he presented his point in a non hostile way which I respect. why you are all getting so hot and bothered by a hypothetical scenario which applies to none of the posters is beyond me.

 

[orthomyxo]

again I do not plan on going to PA school as I do not want to be PA. but I fail to see the problem if someone wishes to do this.

I'm aware allied healthcare workers have a harder time getting in but I reckon most people entering these fields don't do so with medical school in mind therefor not keeping their GPAs competitive. I fail to see how an allied health worker with competitive GPA, MCATS, and volunteering would have a harder time entering medical school than anyone else.

I also don't agree with the "taking a spot" mentality. if that person could not get into PA school they simply weren't competitive enough and should not be sympathized with. who is to say how someone should use their education?

Really? Not according to your last post, in which you explicitly said that a PA would be given preference over a student fresh out of undergrad. You fail.

Wait...double fail. You contradicted yourself two sentences later. Good day to you sir!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

he presented his point in a non hostile way which I respect. why you are all getting so hot and bothered by a hypothetical scenario which applies to none of the posters is beyond me.

Because your condescending, asking for opinions on the matter and then frankly rejecting them because they don't kiss your ass. Needless to say you have no tact.

 

[Cmaj7th]

that study does not include mean GPA. if the average GPA among nursing pre-meds is 3.2 and 3.6 for bio majors then I reckon there would be a larger number of the latter accepted.

 

[orthomyxo]

This thread was doomed to fail before you even posted it. Clearly you are just trying to rationalize your decision to bridge from PA to MD if you do not get accepted in your first app cycle. You aren't even taking anyone else's advice into consideration before you comment back defensively.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

that study does not include mean GPA. if the average GPA among nursing pre-meds is 3.2 and 3.6 for bio majors then I reckon there would be a larger number of the latter accepted.

Are you implying that biology majors have a higher gpa spectrum overall then nursing majors? I mean honestly, there are likely the same diffusion of gpa's across the spectrum if not higher for the nursing majors because they are a vocational major.

Seriously your being pigheaded at this point.

 

[Cmaj7th]

I did not contradict myself. I was aware before this thread that allied health care workers have a harder time getting accepted. but what I have yet to see is a study that proves allied healthcare workers with a competitive GPA have a harder time than other majors.

I am not condescending. I'm entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I may have disagreed with what the posters have said but I have not done so in a rude way until the pissing match ensued.

 

[Disinence2]

If you want to be a PA then go to PA school

If you want to be a doctor then go to Medical School

Doing one for the sake of the other seems costly and time consuming.


I find it interesting the number of pre-meds now that attempt to get other forms of licenses/certification to become more competitive for medical school.

Remember that a VAST majority of those entering medical schools were not previously nurses, pharmacists, PA, or EMT's. It is entirely possible to get in, and become a good doctor, by shadowing and volunteering.

 

[Cmaj7th]

I am not implying anything I randomly picked a non health major for comparison.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I did not contradict myself. I was aware before this thread that allied health care workers have a harder time getting accepted. but what I have yet to see is a study that proves allied healthcare workers with a competitive GPA have a harder time than other majors.

I am not condescending. I'm entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I may have disagreed with what the posters have said but I have not done so in a rude way until the pissing match ensued.

 

[orthomyxo]

 

[Cmaj7th]

Remember that a VAST majority of those entering medical schools were not previously nurses, pharmacists, PA, or EMT's. It is entirely possible to get in, and become a good doctor, by shadowing and volunteering.

I absolutely agree with this. the knowledge gained in most health professions in my opinion is at a cursory level and wouldn't be significant help in medical school. my own reasoning for choosing EMS is out of interest/some financial security. and the education would be useful if I choose to join the armed forces after undergrad.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

haha what... arkansas just restated what has already been said.

I didn't read the other replies.

 

[Cmaj7th]

Are you implying that biology majors have a higher gpa spectrum overall then nursing majors? I mean honestly, there are likely the same diffusion of gpa's across the spectrum if not higher for the nursing majors because they are a vocational major.

Seriously your being pigheaded at this point.

you can not assume that the GPAs among these majors are equal. and since you have no data from your study to back this claim you are pulling this out of your ass.

 

[Disinence2]

I absolutely agree with this. the knowledge gained in most health professions in my opinion is at a cursory level and wouldn't be significant help in medical school. my own reasoning for choosing EMS is out of interest/some financial security. and the education would be useful if I choose to join the armed forces after undergrad.

I was an EMT before medical school. I can assure you it offered absolutely no benefit during my first 3 years. Being a paramedic actually might give you a decent heads up though. Some of the students in my class who were pharmacist are basically rock stars on their rotations. These other health professions can be of benefit from you, however by the time you graduate, I would argue that your all on an even playing field.

I'm not saying your plan is a bad idea, just likely unnecessary. I would personally advise someone to go down the DO path before going to PA school to improve their application.

 

[Disinence2]

PS. Its pretty awesome your school offers a Bachelors in EMS management.

 

[Cmaj7th]

I understand how you could come to that conclusion, especially when I have free tuition at UMD. but the idea of joining the military as an officer has been a big component in choosing this road.

besides EMS is just more fun and interesting to me compared to other degrees.

 

[Cmaj7th]

yeah it's UMBC and they're doing some great things for EMS. some folks from johns hopkins designed a neo-natal transport program there too.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

I absolutely agree with this. the knowledge gained in most health professions in my opinion is at a cursory level and wouldn't be significant help in medical school. my own reasoning for choosing EMS is out of interest/some financial security. and the education would be useful if I choose to join the armed forces after undergrad.

Well, I don't really think shadowing or volunteering in itself will make you a better medical student or doctor. Your results may vary. It's an expectation so people do it.

I went to paramedic school, while working on my B.S. in B.S. full-time, and I did it because I was tired of being "premed." I wanted to be "med" if that makes sense. I was tired of taking all the craptastic prereq classes and sitting around waiting to be a doctor so I chose EMT school and then paramedic school to learn some right then and to then start getting significant clinical exposure and work experience. In the end, I think it worked to my detriment because I got side tracked on a lot of things, got tired of being in school, and graduated with my B.S. early rather than finishing o-chem and physics which I will soon be taking. I ended up becoming a H.S. teacher via an alternative certification program and worked weekends and summers as a medic. Later, I went to work for the sheriff's office and eventually gave up working on ambulance and from there moved to my current agency and then on up the ladder in a sense. I'm in the first responder role now which I like just fine actually. It's fun watching the new medics roll up and stand there wide eyed and tunnel visioned. Although I'm no longer skilled in ACLS and wouldn't know something like a junctional escape if it bit me I drop subtle hints when I need to. I calmed one down once and talked him through a crich. That was cool.

There's nothing wrong with pursuing a professional bachelor's program. You're pragmatic enough to realize that your chance of getting rejected from medical school is far greater than that of getting accepted. You'll at least be able to work in a capacity that you enjoy.

Also, if you've got a bachelor's degree don't just join the military. Go to OCS/OTS if you're young enough. If I weren't red-green color blind I would like to have flown Apaches which despite other interests in the medical realm and law enforcement I would've probably done if allowed the opportunity.

 

[Cmaj7th]

I went to paramedic school, while working on my B.S. in B.S. full-time, and I did it because I was tired of being "premed." I wanted to be "med" if that makes sense. .

I know exactly what you mean because that is how I feel. I ultimately want to be a physician but allied health interests me more than other degrees. I figured if pre-meds are allowed to major in whatever degree they want then I will do just that.

"it's not the destination, it's the journey applies" to me. I think it'd be good to get some real world experience before medical school and EMS seems like a good way to do that.

and if I join I do plan on going in as an officer and not enlisted.

 

[johncalvin]

I used to think the PA to MD route was extremely common, because I'd see doctor's office signs say "Dr. John, MD, PA."

Then I realized PA stood for "Professional Association"

 

[ArkansasRanger]

I used to think the PA to MD route was extremely common, because I'd see doctor's office signs say "Dr. John, MD, PA."

Then I realized PA stood for "Professional Association"

LOL Me too! Then after noticing that I started noticing a lot of JD/PA and thinking "woah badass a lawyer / PA." lol

 

[Superman DO]

I used to think the PA to MD route was extremely common, because I'd see doctor's office signs say "Dr. John, MD, PA."

Then I realized PA stood for "Professional Association"

Oh! That is what that PA stands for! I could never figure it out. . .thanks for the enlightenment!!

 

[orthomyxo]

I was an EMT before medical school. I can assure you it offered absolutely no benefit during my first 3 years. Being a paramedic actually might give you a decent heads up though. Some of the students in my class who were pharmacist are basically rock stars on their rotations. These other health professions can be of benefit from you, however by the time you graduate, I would argue that your all on an even playing field.

I'm not saying your plan is a bad idea, just likely unnecessary. I would personally advise someone to go down the DO path before going to PA school to improve their application.

Hmm...interesting. How many former pharmacists are in your class?

 

[TexasPhysician]

I mistyped, the AAS is in EMT-p. through the EMS management degree you can enroll in a CCEMT-p program and a neo-natal transport program as well. I do plan on working as a part time medic (work service obligation for free tuition) the last three years and am maintaining a competitive GPA for medical school ( I don't plan to fail).

Serenade your argument is based on opinion not fact. I know there are people on this site who have gone from PA to MD. to think a PA with good grades would not be given preference over the 22 year old kid who spent his summers folding blankets in an ER seems absurd to me.

and why would not making a career out of a PA degree be worthless? is getting a masters in chemistry but not becoming a chemist worthless? I know several med students who did just this to get in.

ArkansasRanger I understand what you mean as I know how competitive PA schools are. however I think a person with a lot of legitimate healthcare experience and maybe a 3.3-3.4 could get into a PA school somewhere where as that might not be the case for an allopathic school which does not weigh experience as heavily.

again I'm only asking this out of curiosity. I do not plan on going such a round about path myself but it seems like a viable option for a certain group of people.

The reason the chemistry masters isn't as worthless is because of the research you could gain. Publishing papers will help you in the long run - no matter what field you publish in. I agree that both degrees are pretty worthless if research isn't considered.....if you plan on medical school...which is why doing a 1 year masters makes the most sense.

PA school (with a plan on med school) is like hedging your bets. You don't believe you could get into med school so you go PA school knowing there is a good job waiting for you. If med school is really your goal, why wait 2-3 years before you can apply again while in PA school?

The thing is that medical school prepares you to be a doctor. Prior experience as a PA, pharmacist, etc. may make medical school slightly easier for you, but admissions doesn't care much about this. Admissions has faith in their own school and the preparation it provides. They are looking to get the smartest/brightest students regardless.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Well firstly a PA program costs 100k. A Master program costs maybe 10k, and most are funded( sometimes free or reduced price). So it'd be firstly a waste of cash. Secondly unless you actually practice as a PA for like 5 years your degree with be worthless and not help you at all. Not to mention after being a PA for 5 years you'll most likely want to just continue being a PA and not spend another 7 years in school.
So, its a waste of:
1. money
2. time
and will not help you at all.
Where as a normal masters degree will at least add some research to your application.
Oh yah, if your not familiar most PA schools require gpa's and gre scores which are relatively high, averages are like 3.5 and a good gre.

I agree that it is not financially or timely sound to do PA to MD. However PA schools accept a broad range of gpa's (like medical schools). A recent graduate of a TX PA school graduated number 1 in her PA school class and entered with only a 3.0 gpa from undergrad. I'm very proud of her (sorry for that bragging)