PA School

[Skittles_mix]

What kind of bachelor’s degree did you have when you applied to PA school? My original plan was to get one in science or biology. However, after asking various schools they’ve said they will accept any accredited bachelors as long as the pre-requisites courses are met. So, I’m going with a bachelor’s in general studies, since it’s the fastest and cheapest route. Any advice if the emphasis of the degree may have a say in admissions?

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[pamac]

They are right. Most of the people I know who were most successful at getting into PA school didn’t have a science degree. A lot of folks do apply to Pa school with biology degrees because they were folks who originally wanted to go to medical or dental school, but there are disadvantages of doing that. Here’s a quick case study:

Student A is a business major who took the easy business classes that were required for his major. He got A’s in them because he was a business major, and majoring in business is easy. He also took one hard class each semester, which consisted of a biology or chemistry, or some other prereq for PA school, and since that was the only hard class he took, he had plenty of time to do well in it, and got an A in each prereq.

Student B was a biology major who originally wanted to go to medical school. There are a lot of classes you have to take to take the MCAT that medical schools require you to take, and so each semester, Student B had 3 or 4 really challenging classes that he or she needed to take to not only get into medical school, but also to graduate with a biology degree (which requires mostly challenging classes). Student B got mostly B’s, and even a few C’s even though they put a lot of time into school, which made it hard to do extracurricular activities that would help them stand out.

At application time, Student A has nearly a 4.0 GPA overall, and a 4.0 GPA in the prerequisite courses. Student A also got to do tons of extracurricular activities that made him or her stand out to admissions committees. The folks at the Pa school squeeled with delight at having such a diverse and unconventional candidate apply, and snapped them right up.

Student B graduated with a 3.125 GPA, and had. B’s in most of the prereqs for PA school because they had lots of hard classes to juggle. Student B also had to put lots of time into school and studying, and didn’t get time to go do other activities that would have portrayed Student B as a well rounded individual who was president of the student kayaking club like Student A was. Student B wasn’t a SCUBA tutor, like student A was either. And Student B didn’t go to South America for two weeks on a mission trip to give substandard medical care to impoverished locals (better than nothing, right? And it “totally changed Student A’s life”, which you could read about in his well written and emotionally appealing application essay!).

Guess who gets into PA school, graduates, and then complains about NPs being independent while they have to be shackled to a physician, even though they insist PAs offer “tons better care”?.... Student A.

Don’t be student B.

 

[Skittles_mix]

Your last comment about PA’s outlook on NPs . I work along side both PAs and NPs. I have nothing but respect for both professions. Thanks for your feedback and advice. I think I will stick with the Bachelor’s in general studies. Most of my pre-reqs are almost complete. I was initially a pre-pharm student, so I knocked out 70% of all hardcore science courses.

 

[Neuro244]

I tried searching sdn for people who are willing to look at your secondary essays and provide you with feedback but have had no luck. Does anyone here have a link to where I may be able to find that on SDN as I really need some input? Thank you!

 

[pamac]

I used to do that for folks, but it takes too much work, and it got to the point where many of the folks didn’t have a reasonable chance due to their stats. There were a few people that ended up with gold plated essays based on my advice that never were read by admissions committees because they didn’t have a real chance.

A good resource is “how to get into the PA school of your choice” by Rodican. He does a good job of laying out how the essay should go.

Everyone sends out secondary essays these days to make more money from applicants, unfortunately. They know everyone wants to put their best foot forward.

 

[Neuro244]

I used to do that for folks, but it takes too much work, and it got to the point where many of the folks didn’t have a reasonable chance due to their stats. There were a few people that ended up with gold plated essays based on my advice that never were read by admissions committees because they didn’t have a real chance.

A good resource is “how to get into the PA school of your choice” by Rodican. He does a good job of laying out how the essay should go.

Everyone sends out secondary essays these days to make more money from applicants, unfortunately. They know everyone wants to put their best foot forward.

Ah, I see. I'm not referring to my personal statement, however. I'm referring to the program-specific questions (secondary-like) questions. There is one school I haven't submitted to yet and just need some feedback for 3 of the answers.

 

[MidwestPAC]

They are right. Most of the people I know who were most successful at getting into PA school didn’t have a science degree. A lot of folks do apply to Pa school with biology degrees because they were folks who originally wanted to go to medical or dental school, but there are disadvantages of doing that. Here’s a quick case study:

Student A is a business major who took the easy business classes that were required for his major. He got A’s in them because he was a business major, and majoring in business is easy. He also took one hard class each semester, which consisted of a biology or chemistry, or some other prereq for PA school, and since that was the only hard class he took, he had plenty of time to do well in it, and got an A in each prereq.

Student B was a biology major who originally wanted to go to medical school. There are a lot of classes you have to take to take the MCAT that medical schools require you to take, and so each semester, Student B had 3 or 4 really challenging classes that he or she needed to take to not only get into medical school, but also to graduate with a biology degree (which requires mostly challenging classes). Student B got mostly B’s, and even a few C’s even though they put a lot of time into school, which made it hard to do extracurricular activities that would help them stand out.

At application time, Student A has nearly a 4.0 GPA overall, and a 4.0 GPA in the prerequisite courses. Student A also got to do tons of extracurricular activities that made him or her stand out to admissions committees. The folks at the Pa school squeeled with delight at having such a diverse and unconventional candidate apply, and snapped them right up.

Student B graduated with a 3.125 GPA, and had. B’s in most of the prereqs for PA school because they had lots of hard classes to juggle. Student B also had to put lots of time into school and studying, and didn’t get time to go do other activities that would have portrayed Student B as a well rounded individual who was president of the student kayaking club like Student A was. Student B wasn’t a SCUBA tutor, like student A was either. And Student B didn’t go to South America for two weeks on a mission trip to give substandard medical care to impoverished locals (better than nothing, right? And it “totally changed Student A’s life”, which you could read about in his well written and emotionally appealing application essay!).

Guess who gets into PA school, graduates, and then complains about NPs being independent while they have to be shackled to a physician, even though they insist PAs offer “tons better care”?.... Student A.

Don’t be student B.

I have never met 1 PA that did what u stated in student A. I know and have talked to hundreds of PAs and this is not the case. Every single person in my school had high level HCE and a science degree. We do complain about NPs cause are prereqs are harder and PA school is much much harder with the didactic and clinical rotations with thousands of hours not 4 months of partime mintue clinic rotations literally shadowing and of course the online portion. Then NPs are independent and ready to go when they have been a RN for 2 years! Not sure where you get your info but it is consistently wrong.
OP get a science degree (premed) and apply to PA school. You will be much happier, do well in PA school and actually be able to critically think while in practice.

 

[pamac]

I have never met 1 PA that did what u stated in student A. I know and have talked to hundreds of PAs and this is not the case. Every single person in my school had high level HCE and a science degree. We do complain about NPs cause are prereqs are harder and PA school is much much harder with the didactic and clinical rotations with thousands of hours not 4 months of partime mintue clinic rotations literally shadowing and of course the online portion. Then NPs are independent and ready to go when they have been a RN for 2 years! Not sure where you get your info but it is consistently wrong.
OP get a science degree (premed) and apply to PA school. You will be much happier, do well in PA school and actually be able to critically think while in practice.

How convenient that you've talked to "hundreds of PA's" about their undergrad! It finally paid off to have all that knowledge in store for years just for this moment to dive in and prove me wrong! I've talked to maybe a few hundred RN's in my day, and their undergrad degrees have never come up organically as a subject. You will have to explain to me how you manage to pigeon hole that kind of inquiry into casual conversation, because its remarkable....

So I think you are full of it, as usual, and that you seem compelled to argue just for the sake of it. You prove it by diving into another host of litanies that you seem to always fixate upon. It also seems strange that out of the “hundreds of PAs” that you’ve met, you’ve never run into someone that fit the profile in the hypothetical I gave, and yet I’ve met quite a few folks that fit that scenario to the mark... not a majority of them, but enough that feel comfortable mentioning it. I went to school with these folks in my undergrad, and we studied together (and I worked with a couple in a campus research lab) and I saw them go on to become PAs. But you’ve never, ever, ever seen that happen. Ever.... hmmmm.

Anyway, moving back to the subject you resurrected...

I also know quite a few dentists who had unconventional undergrad degrees, and completed prereqs along the way to good effect. The fact is that taking that approach typically works best if you plan to put forth the effort to pull near a 4.0 in your sciences, and have a really good GPA to demonstrate that whatever you touch in an academic sense turns to gold. I wouldn't plan on trying to pull it off if you aren't in a position to prove that you will thrive. For quite some time its been vogue to present ones self as a well rounded individual with diverse interests and experiences vs. an egghead that spent their time cloistered in study hall. Don't get me wrong, the egghead folks also tend to land with good fortune, but they occupy a small slice of the applicant pool, leaving enough room for the folks who have developed the chops to take in large amounts of knowledge quickly. These folks can take one biology class and internalize the knowledge that takes most of us a couple of different classes or more to master. Much of it is an acquired skill that comes with good work ethic. I had it in the classes that interested me, and struggled to summon it in the courses that didn't.

 

[pamac]

Ah, I see. I'm not referring to my personal statement, however. I'm referring to the program-specific questions (secondary-like) questions. There is one school I haven't submitted to yet and just need some feedback for 3 of the answers.

You can PM them to me if you'd like. Or you can PM them to MidwestPAC. He insists he's talked to "hundreds of PA's" about stuff like what their undergrad was. Maybe while he was doing that, he gleaned information about how they answered questions on their secondary applications.

But yes, I wouldn't mind looking at your stuff.

 

[MidwestPAC]

How convenient that you've talked to "hundreds of PA's" about their undergrad! It finally paid off to have all that knowledge in store for years just for this moment to dive in and prove me wrong! I've talked to maybe a few hundred RN's in my day, and their undergrad degrees have never come up organically as a subject. You will have to explain to me how you manage to pigeon hole that kind of inquiry into casual conversation, because its remarkable....

So I think you are full of it, as usual, and that you seem compelled to argue just for the sake of it. You prove it by diving into another host of litanies that you seem to always fixate upon. It also seems strange that out of the “hundreds of PAs” that you’ve met, you’ve never run into someone that fit the profile in the hypothetical I gave, and yet I’ve met quite a few folks that fit that scenario to the mark... not a majority of them, but enough that feel comfortable mentioning it. I went to school with these folks in my undergrad, and we studied together (and I worked with a couple in a campus research lab) and I saw them go on to become PAs. But you’ve never, ever, ever seen that happen. Ever.... hmmmm.

Anyway, moving back to the subject you resurrected...

I also know quite a few dentists who had unconventional undergrad degrees, and completed prereqs along the way to good effect. The fact is that taking that approach typically works best if you plan to put forth the effort to pull near a 4.0 in your sciences, and have a really good GPA to demonstrate that whatever you touch in an academic sense turns to gold. I wouldn't plan on trying to pull it off if you aren't in a position to prove that you will thrive. For quite some time its been vogue to present ones self as a well rounded individual with diverse interests and experiences vs. an egghead that spent their time cloistered in study hall. Don't get me wrong, the egghead folks also tend to land with good fortune, but they occupy a small slice of the applicant pool, leaving enough room for the folks who have developed the chops to take in large amounts of knowledge quickly. These folks can take one biology class and internalize the knowledge that takes most of us a couple of different classes or more to master. Much of it is an acquired skill that comes with good work ethic. I had it in the classes that interested me, and struggled to summon it in the courses that didn't.

What school did you go to? Oh I went there or knew someone that went there. They did the xyz program. Oh cool I did that took. Wasnt organic chem hard? Or I did a biology/chem degree (double major). That is how these convos go. Yes I go to state and national conference as well as local chapter meeting. We talk. You did a nursing degree so you wouldn't know about premed class with PAs etc. So how many of these PAs that you did class with you kept in contact in contact with to know for sure they were PAs and no MAs or something else that your friends uncle told you about them. Again everything I say as a PA about PAs you state is wrong. I dont bash all your nursing comments but you seem fine with doing that to me. Just keep the PA comment to people that are actually PAs.

 

[MidwestPAC]

You can PM them to me if you'd like. Or you can PM them to MidwestPAC. He insists he's talked to "hundreds of PA's" about stuff like what their undergrad was. Maybe while he was doing that, he gleaned information about how they answered questions on their secondary applications.
Nope never once talked about that. See above for example of a convoy about how I know what people did for undergrad. Also when you go to PA school they will give you stats about the class and what degree they had. They will do this for when you are premed or pre PA. It's called an advisor that advises you. I agree there are a few (like you said) PAs that have general studies degrees but that's nothing od the norm. So quit giving bad advice to pre PA students. Do a premed degree and make good grades.

 

[pamac]

You did a nursing degree so you wouldn't know about premed class with PAs etc. So how many of these PAs that you did class with you kept in contact in contact with to know for sure they were PAs and no MAs or something else....

I have a biology degree and was pre med, with more biology in my academic background than most folks, so yeah... I know a bit about premed classes with PAs.

And Facebook is a good way to keep in touch with everyone from your past. Linked in too. Try it out with all your “hundreds of Pa friends.”

So whatever. Keep talking....

 

[MidwestPAC]

I have a biology degree and was pre med, with more biology in my academic background than most folks, so yeah... I know a bit about premed classes with PAs.

And Facebook is a good way to keep in touch with everyone from your past. Linked in too. Try it out with all your “hundreds of Pa friends.”

So whatever. Keep talking....

Cool gald you did premed work. I dont have Facebook, not into knowing everything about people I hardly talk to or never have talked to.
I will see I'd there are stats about pre PA degrees and areas of studies prior to PA school. That's another good way to see what most PAs do...not general studies.

 

[pamac]

Cool gald you did premed work. I dont have Facebook, not into knowing everything about people I hardly talk to or never have talked to.
I will see I'd there are stats about pre PA degrees and areas of studies prior to PA school. That's another good way to see what most PAs do...not general studies.

You go to conferences and talk to hundreds of PAs about their exact undergrad circumstances... you seem equipped with enough curiosity to have Facebook.

I’d suggest a review what was stated and use of some appreciation of nuanced conversation, paying attention to the disclaimers I included.

For one, general studies wasn’t one of the realms I suggested.

For two, it was never stated that most PAs that get into school are business majors and the like... what was said was that the folks that I saw that were most successful getting into schools (as a group) had the approach that diverged from the masses of students who thought simply having a lot of science credits alone was key to getting into professional school. Case in point, a PA program near me has an admission evaluation rubric that takes students based on 5 or 6 prerequisite courses, cumulative GPA, Science GPA, and the GRE. That’s it. And a lot of programs I know of do that too. The evaluation metric doesn’t involve how much science coursework you have beyond those key data points. One is left on their own to decide how to leverage their time, given that the best approach would probably be to focus on the specific areas one would be judged on. Beyond that, having a diverse background is almost always a plus that distinguishes applicants from the background noise produced by being just another biology major. So from my observations, I saw great students with diverse backgrounds and study interests get into PA school at a higher rate than the typical kid with a biology degree, especially if that kid struggled a little due to the time involved in juggling a ton of courses that the diverse kid didn’t. The diverse kid wasn’t shackled into taking x amount of biology coursework in order to graduate with the major. They could focus like a laser where it was necessary. Often times, because a bachelors degree is par for the course for students of most professional schools these day, it's just more convenient to graduate with a biology degree.

 

[MidwestPAC]

You go to conferences and talk to hundreds of PAs about their exact undergrad circumstances... you seem equipped with enough curiosity to have Facebook.

I’d suggest a review what was stated and use of some appreciation of nuanced conversation, paying attention to the disclaimers I included.

For one, general studies wasn’t one of the realms I suggested.

For two, it was never stated that most PAs that get into school are business majors and the like... what was said was that the folks that I saw that were most successful getting into schools (as a group) had the approach that diverged from the masses of students who thought simply having a lot of science credits alone was key to getting into professional school. Case in point, a PA program near me has an admission evaluation rubric that takes students based on 5 or 6 prerequisite courses, cumulative GPA, Science GPA, and the GRE. That’s it. And a lot of programs I know of do that too. The evaluation metric doesn’t involve how much science coursework you have beyond those key data points. One is left on their own to decide how to leverage their time, given that the best approach would probably be to focus on the specific areas one would be judged on. Beyond that, having a diverse background is almost always a plus that distinguishes applicants from the background noise produced by being just another biology major. So from my observations, I saw great students with diverse backgrounds and study interests get into PA school at a higher rate than the typical kid with a biology degree, especially if that kid struggled a little due to the time involved in juggling a ton of courses that the diverse kid didn’t. The diverse kid wasn’t shackled into taking x amount of biology coursework in order to graduate with the major. They could focus like a laser where it was necessary. Often times, because a bachelors degree is par for the course for students of most professional schools these day, it's just more convenient to graduate with a biology degree.

So why does Pa schools have "preferred" classes such as advanced biology or chem or pharmacology or immunology or classes that are for science majors and NOT survey courses? It does matter. I went through the process and you didn't. They loved all the advanced sciences classes I had. Same way as most of the students in my classes. 90% of them had over the minimum. Again you haven't done it so just give up this discussion you are losing. You are taking this thread way off topic again.

 

[pamac]

So why does Pa schools have "preferred" classes such as advanced biology or chem or pharmacology or immunology or classes that are for science majors and NOT survey courses? It does matter. I went through the process and you didn't. They loved all the advanced sciences classes I had. Same way as most of the students in my classes. 90% of them had over the minimum. Again you haven't done it so just give up this discussion you are losing. You are taking this thread way off topic again.

Ahhh but I did go through the application process. Attended interviews. Got one rejection. Then the fat envelope case from nursing school and I withdrew all my invites to the remaining schools. So I know a bit about how it works as well. Taught a few lectures as well. Not a big deal, but it was flattering to be invited. Been around tons of undergrads and saw who got in and who didn’t. Helped a lot of folks with their essays... lots.

Anyway.... keep talking.

 

[Makati2008]

Let’s stay on topic please guys.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

What kind of bachelor’s degree did you have when you applied to PA school? My original plan was to get one in science or biology. However, after asking various schools they’ve said they will accept any accredited bachelors as long as the pre-requisites courses are met. So, I’m going with a bachelor’s in general studies, since it’s the fastest and cheapest route. Any advice if the emphasis of the degree may have a say in admissions?

The majority of PA matriculants have strong science undergrads. Biology, chemistry, pre-med, biochem, etc.

Next largest group are medical-related degrees with some science such as nursing, public health, respiratory tech, radiology tech, etc. These folks also come with their years/decades of experience.

Small minority get in with non-science or non-healthcare degrees. Those who do are usually added to the class because they have some other especially redeeming quality, etc.

PA programs are incredibly difficult to get into, often they have 10 qualified applicants for each seat in their program. If you want to give yourself the greatest likelihood of getting in then get a hard science degree.

 

[pamac]

The majority of PA matriculants have strong science undergrads. Biology, chemistry, pre-med, biochem, etc.

Next largest group are medical-related degrees with some science such as nursing, public health, respiratory tech, radiology tech, etc. These folks also come with their years/decades of experience.

Small minority get in with non-science or non-healthcare degrees. Those who do are usually added to the class because they have some other especially redeeming quality, etc.

PA programs are incredibly difficult to get into, often they have 10 qualified applicants for each seat in their program. If you want to give yourself the greatest likelihood of getting in then get a hard science degree.

I agree with all of that. What I can say is that the folks I saw who did the “non science, non healthcare degree” approach that actually had excellent grades in prerequisites and overall GPA like I mentioned, even though they were a small minority, still tended to get in at higher rates than folks that had a bunch of science, but had grades that suffered. A decent number of people that have no clue are the ones who have non science, non healthcare degrees, and middle range grades (3.0-3.5). They might be one of the larger applicant pools, even larger than the folks with healthcare degrees.... and they tend to fail spectacularly in their quest for seats. These are the folks who picked up an article about “10 best careers” and thought to themselves “oh, two years of school... I’m in!” Nope... they aren’t in.

A disturbingly high number of folks with good HCE and middle range grades also tend to not get accepted. These days, grades are king, even among the folks with great HCE. There just aren’t enough University of Washington’s, that actually care about HCE.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

These days, grades are king, even among the folks with great HCE. There just aren’t enough University of Washington’s, that actually care about HCE.

I agree, however this is another indication the PA education model is moving closer towards the Medical Doctorate model where they take brilliant kids fresh from a hard science undergrad and teach them medicine in a few years, followed by a residency that hones their practice. Seems to work pretty well.

 

[pamac]

I agree, however this is another indication the PA education model is moving closer towards the Medical Doctorate model where they take brilliant kids fresh from a hard science undergrad and teach them medicine in a few years, followed by a residency that hones their practice. Seems to work pretty well.

It’s not the case, it’s simply supply and demand, and like I said, there are a fair amount of people applying that have no business doing so, driven partly by the clickbait and US news and world report style articles talking about the PA career being one of the top careers in the country that you can get into with only two years of training (which those of us who know are aware that isn’t the whole story). Its also driven by folks with less stellar, but still decent grades and biology degrees. But the cream rises to the top, fortunately, and it’s turning exclusively merit based, to the extent that the historical applicant pool of folks with good healthcare experience are excluded.

However, if it were true that it represents the career moving closer to a medical doctorate with residencies and the like, that would bode ill for the career, because then it would simply be medical school, right? Albeit medical school that isn’t quite medical school, with all the rights and privileges that come with an unencumbered practice scope. They already are transitioning many medical schools to 3 year programs by cutting fat. Even the “bridge” PA-MD programs simply consist of that model, and PAs aren’t given any fast track that isn’t offered to a student attending NYUs 3 year program.

So I’m just a little confused at what paradigm you are seeing the world through where PA schools simply taking the top academic performers from their applicant pool is moving things toward a medical school model that “works pretty well”. The only thing that seems to be changing, which is fine, is that they recruit more like med schools. If you tack on residencies, you get a slightly shorter track full of folks who are still PAs. It changes the career from being a force multiplier as it was intended and into a field full of better trained PAs who still aren’t doctors and make the same amount of money they do now. I think that would actually lessen the appeal of the career that was meant to crank out generalist providers that were ready to go fairly quickly out of school. As it is now, the residency seems to be necessary to make up for changing from a workforce of PAs that used to have HCE, and now simply accommodates a workforce where PA is their first time having an important job in healthcare. The medical education establishment and residencies are expensive, and long. Efficiency was the name of the game when PAs were first imagined. Mimicking medical school in breadth of program length means the PA profession loses that edge in time savings, and you get folks asking why they would go that route when it’s no longer a 2 year program. The 7 years minimum it takes to become a physician after undergrad starts to look better than PA if PA now has a year or more added on to it.

If your suggestion rings true, wouldn’t it just be better to have PA schools try their best to change over to something like a 3 year medical school, and use the existing resources that direction instead of taking up space churning out PAs?

 

[MidwestPAC]

It’s not the case, it’s simply supply and demand, and like I said, there are a fair amount of people applying that have no business doing so, driven partly by the clickbait and US news and world report style articles talking about the PA career being one of the top careers in the country that you can get into with only two years of training (which those of us who know are aware that isn’t the whole story). Its also driven by folks with less stellar, but still decent grades and biology degrees. But the cream rises to the top, fortunately, and it’s turning exclusively merit based, to the extent that the historical applicant pool of folks with good healthcare experience are excluded.

However, if it were true that it represents the career moving closer to a medical doctorate with residencies and the like, that would bode ill for the career, because then it would simply be medical school, right? Albeit medical school that isn’t quite medical school, with all the rights and privileges that come with an unencumbered practice scope. They already are transitioning many medical schools to 3 year programs by cutting fat. Even the “bridge” PA-MD programs simply consist of that model, and PAs aren’t given any fast track that isn’t offered to a student attending NYUs 3 year program.

So I’m just a little confused at what paradigm you are seeing the world through where PA schools simply taking the top academic performers from their applicant pool is moving things toward a medical school model that “works pretty well”. The only thing that seems to be changing, which is fine, is that they recruit more like med schools. If you tack on residencies, you get a slightly shorter track full of folks who are still PAs. It changes the career from being a force multiplier as it was intended and into a field full of better trained PAs who still aren’t doctors and make the same amount of money they do now. I think that would actually lessen the appeal of the career that was meant to crank out generalist providers that were ready to go fairly quickly out of school. As it is now, the residency seems to be necessary to make up for changing from a workforce of PAs that used to have HCE, and now simply accommodates a workforce where PA is their first time having an important job in healthcare. The medical education establishment and residencies are expensive, and long. Efficiency was the name of the game when PAs were first imagined. Mimicking medical school in breadth of program length means the PA profession loses that edge in time savings, and you get folks asking why they would go that route when it’s no longer a 2 year program. The 7 years minimum it takes to become a physician after undergrad starts to look better than PA if PA now has a year or more added on to it.

If your suggestion rings true, wouldn’t it just be better to have PA schools try their best to change over to something like a 3 year medical school, and use the existing resources that direction instead of taking up space churning out PAs?

And clickbait of RN to DNP in 3 years part time and online only is not disturbing to you? That's frankly scares the crap out of me. They have no business practicing let alone says they have a doctorate degree when every DNP I have ever seen has less credit hours for their "doctorate" than my masters for PA school. Its sticking and of course most all states have better laws. PAs are much more trained to be in practice sooner and alot of PA schools take the same classes and test as the MD students. Mine did. Let's see what you come up with now.

 

[pamac]

And clickbait of RN to DNP in 3 years part time and online only is not disturbing to you? That's frankly scares the crap out of me. They have no business practicing let alone says they have a doctorate degree when every DNP I have ever seen has less credit hours for their "doctorate" than my masters for PA school. Its sticking and of course most all states have better laws. PAs are much more trained to be in practice sooner and alot of PA schools take the same classes and test as the MD students. Mine did. Let's see what you come up with now.

Not sure what you are saying. A DNP generally does take 3 years if you are already an RN.

The best healthcare experience you typically see PAs have these days is CNA. Sometimes you run into some RT folks. Rarely RNs. It should scare you that someone with no healthcare experience can go to a year of school, then a year of clinicals, and then be prescribing.

Taking the same tests as the med students is less common than not.... by far.

I guess we choose what we fear, and you fear folks who were RNs before they were NPs working on you vs the kid who was a candy striper and went to a year of in class instruction and a year of clinical rotations and now is seeing you on day one.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Not sure what you are saying. A DNP generally does take 3 years if you are already an RN.

The best healthcare experience you typically see PAs have these days is CNA. Sometimes you run into some RT folks. Rarely RNs. It should scare you that someone with no healthcare experience can go to a year of school, then a year of clinicals, and then be prescribing.

Taking the same tests as the med students is less common than not.... by far.

I guess we choose what we fear, and you fear folks who were RNs before they were NPs working on you vs the kid who was a candy striper and went to a year of in class instruction and a year of clinical rotations and now is seeing you on day one.

Cause the schooling for NPs of get your degree quick and all online is what I'm speaking of. Not working as a RN for 10 years then going to NP. The reason is PA school is much much better training and a 4 to 5 times the amount of clinical rotations. Also more advanced medical education which is about 3 times longer than NP school. I proved that by Dukes program. Anyways you will never agree and always argue. We dont know what you want but NP is nothing near the gold standard.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

It’s not the case, it’s simply supply and demand

owever, if it were true that it represents the career moving closer to a medical doctorate with residencies and the like, that would bode ill for the career, because then it would simply be medical school, right?

So I’m just a little confused at what paradigm you are seeing the world through where PA schools simply taking the top academic performers from their applicant pool is moving things toward a medical school model that “works pretty well”.

The "model" I was referring to, and that works pretty well, is taking brilliant young people and teaching them medicine in a short period of time. Your example of 3 year DO programs reinforce this.

Yes, I lament the loss of the "old school" PA applicant (such as myself) who had tens of thousands of hours of previous medical experience, but it seems that PA educators have a good way of instilling the vast amounts of required medical information into the brains of these brilliant young scholars.

Just like medical school.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

A DNP generally does take 3 years if you are already an RN.

Took me three years to get my garden in. Doesn't mean it was 3 years of work.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Took me three years to get my garden in. Doesn't mean it was 3 years of work.

Yes that's what most NPs want to speak of. They have more schooling that PAs blah blah blah. But I proved him wrong a few days ago when comparing Dukes PA program vs Dukes NP program. The PA program does more credit hours in their pre clinical work than they do in the entire NP program. That should tell you something. This is suppose to be the best NP program in the nation.....

 

[pamac]

The "model" I was referring to, and that works pretty well, is taking brilliant young people and teaching them medicine in a short period of time. Your example of 3 year DO programs reinforce this.

Yes, I lament the loss of the "old school" PA applicant (such as myself) who had tens of thousands of hours of previous medical experience, but it seems that PA educators have a good way of instilling the vast amounts of required medical information into the brains of these brilliant young scholars.

Just like medical school.

I see what you are trying to imply, but there are serious holes in your logic. PAs aren’t med school graduates-lite any more than a baby tyrannosaurus is an apex predator. Medical school already exists, and they take the “brilliantest” of scholars. Their apparatus has upwards from 7 years to mold their product through the crucible of rigorous, soul stretching residencies. Your theory falls flat in the face of that. And they don’t care about you guys. If PA schools are trying to meet med schools in the middle, they will be lonely when they get there, because med schools aren’t asking for that. If they are trying to be similar to medical school, then it’s a bunch of PA faculty trying to do that on their own, but it’s in their own minds to do that.

Like we’ve seen with the “bridge” programs, being a PA gets you out of nothing. A PA would be better suited going to NYUs MD (not DO) program that I reference because they would at least have the opportunity of matching to whatever they wanted to try for. At LECOM, half the class has to go into primary care. And LECOM still isn’t any shorter than NYU’s. That’s how much they respect your analogy of being “just like med school”.

No, what you are also seeing is each new PA program popping up opting to take low or no HCE applicants because it’s easier for them to carry on as an extension of undergrad. More uniform applicants mean easier recruitment, easier format to set up, more potential suitors for their programs, etc. Everyone is easier to teach because they all start out at the same base naïveté about healthcare. Blank slates. I had a Pa school program director tell me that when they said “We’ve read studies that show that students without HCE perform just as well as those that have it. I can take someone without HCE and make them into a competent provider, and have an easier time doing it.” So folks like yourselves who have significant healthcare experience slow them down a bit, I guess.

If PAs want to shoot themselves in the foot and turn their strength from being generalists and into specialists by pushing for a baby residency, I’m not going to stop them. That helps your employer more than you, and it pigeonholes you into a niche. Further, if you want the face of your profession to be someone with their first real job being a PA, then that doesn’t bode well for you guys or your pay scale either. Like I said, physician education can afford that kind of student because they have them for so long, and cram in so many hours that they beat the indiscretions of youth out of them. With PAs, you can add a residency (which actually isn’t happening on a wide scale either), and you’ll still have patients looking at a babe in the woods when they walk through the clinic door.

A prominent physician told my friend that in 10 years, PAs would be like nurses, making nursing wages or less. I didn’t believe it, but what that surgeon saw was what was coming out of school: Folks that think they just got out of med school lite. No experience, no confidence in their value due to no insight, and no independence.

 

[pamac]

Yes that's what most NPs want to speak of. They have more schooling that PAs blah blah blah. But I proved him wrong a few days ago when comparing Dukes PA program vs Dukes NP program. The PA program does more credit hours in their pre clinical work than they do in the entire NP program. That should tell you something. This is suppose to be the best NP program in the nation.....

I didn’t go to Duke. I know nothing about Duke. You can go on and on about Duke and it doesn’t apply to me in the slightest.

You can go on about credit hours and how many credits PA schools assign to their classes, and that doesn’t impact me either, because I’ve noticed PA schools have a knack for believing that every class they offer has to be worth a ton of credits. Just like for you, every NP school I’m your mind is a degree mill that is exclusively online, and every NP has only 500 clinical hours. That’s why nobody takes either of you seriously, because your arguments always race to cite the minimum possible thresholds for your arguments. But at the end of the day, you both are legends on your own minds. And that’s fine. Folks know who they are dealing with.

It’s good that you two got on the train before it left, because today’s PA schools wouldn’t have you, so throwing support behind the culture change isn’t something that burnishes your credentials, rather it’s an indictment of your myopia. But it’s entertaining, so carry on. Please keep talking.

 

[pamac]

If you want an illustration about how useful both of you are to the dialogue, all you have to do is go back to the beginning of the thread. The OP asked about what kind of degree people had prior to PA. I suggested that there are pitfalls to the conventional wisdom, and illustrated how that could work out in a way that rewarded an alternate route to applying for PA school.

What do you know.... the OP was previously pre pharm, and in fact had some hard science background, and the prerequisites already almost done. The things I highlighted were actually pertinent to his situation without me even knowing the specifics. What did you two contribute?

 

[MidwestPAC]

I see what you are trying to imply, but there are serious holes in your logic. PAs aren’t med school graduates-lite any more than a baby tyrannosaurus is an apex predator. Medical school already exists, and they take the “brilliantest” of scholars. Their apparatus has upwards from 7 years to mold their product through the crucible of rigorous, soul stretching residencies. Your theory falls flat in the face of that. And they don’t care about you guys. If PA schools are trying to meet med schools in the middle, they will be lonely when they get there, because med schools aren’t asking for that. If they are trying to be similar to medical school, then it’s a bunch of PA faculty trying to do that on their own, but it’s in their own minds to do that.

Like we’ve seen with the “bridge” programs, being a PA gets you out of nothing. A PA would be better suited going to NYUs MD (not DO) program that I reference because they would at least have the opportunity of matching to whatever they wanted to try for. At LECOM, half the class has to go into primary care. And LECOM still isn’t any shorter than NYU’s. That’s how much they respect your analogy of being “just like med school”.

No, what you are also seeing is each new PA program popping up opting to take low or no HCE applicants because it’s easier for them to carry on as an extension of undergrad. More uniform applicants mean easier recruitment, easier format to set up, more potential suitors for their programs, etc. Everyone is easier to teach because they all start out at the same base naïveté about healthcare. Blank slates. I had a Pa school program director tell me that when they said “We’ve read studies that show that students without HCE perform just as well as those that have it. I can take someone without HCE and make them into a competent provider, and have an easier time doing it.” So folks like yourselves who have significant healthcare experience slow them down a bit, I guess.

If PAs want to shoot themselves in the foot and turn their strength from being generalists and into specialists by pushing for a baby residency, I’m not going to stop them. That helps your employer more than you, and it pigeonholes you into a niche. Further, if you want the face of your profession to be someone with their first real job being a PA, then that doesn’t bode well for you guys or your pay scale either. Like I said, physician education can afford that kind of student because they have them for so long, and cram in so many hours that they beat the indiscretions of youth out of them. With PAs, you can add a residency (which actually isn’t happening on a wide scale either), and you’ll still have patients looking at a babe in the woods when they walk through the clinic door.

A prominent physician told my friend that in 10 years, PAs would be like nurses, making nursing wages or less. I didn’t believe it, but what that surgeon saw was what was coming out of school: Folks that think they just got out of med school lite. No experience, no confidence in their value due to no insight, and no independence.

If the standards of medical school education changed then those bridge programs would be less. The standard is 130 weeks of education. We already get 100 weeks so we aren't far off. Secondly a residency helps YOU and the employer. If you think that it only helps the employer then you need to critically think about your words. The point of schooling is to make a better clinical NOT a cash cow for the employer. That is exactly what I think these Walden Unviersity for NPs are doing. They benefit the employer. A PA that does a 18 months residency in Emergency Medicine is helping them self and is much much better prepared that that RN with 5 years of ER nursing experience and went to NP school with some silly ER cert. that NPs made up. We have CAQs which mimic MDs and DOs.
Also isn't that what NP education does is pigeonhole you into adult only of peds only or psych only etc? Hmmm I find that weird that you think that's a negative when that's how you were trained.
I make more than double what RNs make around my area (tri state). Mot sure what your friends dads sister brothers doctor surgeon was speaking of....

 

[MidwestPAC]

I didn’t go to Duke. I know nothing about Duke. You can go on and on about Duke and it doesn’t apply to me in the slightest.

You can go on about credit hours and how many credits PA schools assign to their classes, and that doesn’t impact me either, because I’ve noticed PA schools have a knack for believing that every class they offer has to be worth a ton of credits. Just like for you, every NP school I’m your mind is a degree mill that is exclusively online, and every NP has only 500 clinical hours. That’s why nobody takes either of you seriously, because your arguments always race to cite the minimum possible thresholds for your arguments. But at the end of the day, you both are legends on your own minds. And that’s fine. Folks know who they are dealing with.

It’s good that you two got on the train before it left, because today’s PA schools wouldn’t have you, so throwing support behind the culture change isn’t something that burnishes your credentials, rather it’s an indictment of your myopia. But it’s entertaining, so carry on. Please keep talking.

If you have read any of my post I posted a month ago about your psych degree having 625 credit hours (around that) and that some schools get up to 1,000 but that rare. Even at that your still not even half way to what PAs get. Also credit hours are assigned by the standard of education so mo PA schools and medical schools just dont makeup numbers. It goes off of how many hours of study and work. Including labs etc... you should look into that before you post. The reason I use Duke is because if I use any other school than than the listed top #1 school you would say that's not how all schools do it and blah blah blah. Just a nice comparison in education and work.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I see what you are trying to imply, but there are serious holes in your logic.

This, along with your other copious writings here, is just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't write/rebut you here to change your mind, but rather to ensure those who occasionally come to this board get another perspective. In this case the OP asked what the best undergrad degree would be, and I answered him.

You, however, once again turned the focus of the discussion on how PA education, and the PA profession, is so woefully broken because we accept kids with no prior HCE (or life experience in general).

But it's not. The PA educational model, following the medical education model created by MD programs, has proven itself able to take brilliant young people and turn them into clinicians with a little over 2 years of intense medical education. Just like with medical school, there is no need for previous HCE (or even extensive life experience) for a student to succeed in these relatively standardized programs, just the ability to absorb an incredible amount of information in a short amount of time.

Also credit hours are assigned by the standard of education so mo PA schools and medical schools just dont makeup numbers.

I disagree with you here, along with your entire premise of using credit hours to compare the educational value of programs. There is far too much subjectivity in assigning credit hours, and credit hours do not capture the difficulty/intensity of the class. For example, Chemistry for Nursing is a 3 credit hour course, yet so is Biochemistry. Biochemistry is exponentially more difficult than Chemistry for Nursing.

 

[pamac]

This, along with your other copious writings here, is just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't write/rebut you here to change your mind, but rather to ensure those who occasionally come to this board get another perspective. In this case the OP asked what the best undergrad degree would be, and I answered him.

You, however, once again turned the focus of the discussion on how PA education, and the PA profession, is so woefully broken because we accept kids with no prior HCE (or life experience in general).

But it's not. The PA educational model, following the medical education model created by MD programs, has proven itself able to take brilliant young people and turn them into clinicians with a little over 2 years of intense medical education. Just like with medical school, there is no need for previous HCE (or even extensive life experience) for a student to succeed in these relatively standardized programs, just the ability to absorb an incredible amount of information in a short amount of time.




I disagree with you here, along with your entire premise of using credit hours to compare the educational value of programs. There is far too much subjectivity in assigning credit hours, and credit hours do not capture the difficulty/intensity of the class. For example, Chemistry for Nursing is a 3 credit hour course, yet so is Biochemistry. Biochemistry is exponentially more difficult than Chemistry for Nursing.

As is typical of your approach, you cherry pick and put words in others mouths. And in a way that is uncannily similar to MidwestPAC, you exhibit a consistent pattern devoid of interpreting nuance. Case in point: Did I say that the PA profession is “woefully broken because it is common theses days to have folks no HCE or life experience?”. Nope. Not once. Having less HCE is indeed a feature of the new landscape, but that’s something you celebrate. That new landscape makes me uneasy, but it’s not “woefully broken”, so there’s no reason for you to try to cue the scary music.

Another aspect of the conversation that seems totally lost on you was that I never presented having a science degree as a substandard approach overall (I have two advanced degrees and graduate work to my credit, not counting my nursing degrees). What I did do was highlight a pitfall of assuming that a biology degree will be the degree to put one over the edge. What I said also included important caveats. And guess what?.... my advice actually fit the OPs circumstances before they were even manifest. All this while you two were waxing patristically condescending, and droning on again about program prowess, etc....ad nauseam. Thanks for that.... it’s what you’ve brought to the table in every thread you’ve participated in. Meanwhile, the OP got the best info about his/her situation regarding PA school from an NP, while you behaved as a broken record. And it’s not like the OP was even trying to decide between PA and any other career. All they wanted was info on their situation, and as soon as you two touched it, the conversation became about PA vs NP, credit hours, recruiting forecasts, and how PA programs are trying to be more like medical schools. You go on to say “I’m just answering the question”. But by then you know that the OP is a general studies major with science coursework, and it never occurred to you to address that. Your advice?: “Science degrees are the best to get”. Well, shucks.... that’s advice I bet he/she already knew.

What the OP really was asking, and what you two didn’t know or care about, was how to get into PA school with what they had on hand.

 

[MidwestPAC]

This, along with your other copious writings here, is just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't write/rebut you here to change your mind, but rather to ensure those who occasionally come to this board get another perspective. In this case the OP asked what the best undergrad degree would be, and I answered him.

You, however, once again turned the focus of the discussion on how PA education, and the PA profession, is so woefully broken because we accept kids with no prior HCE (or life experience in general).

But it's not. The PA educational model, following the medical education model created by MD programs, has proven itself able to take brilliant young people and turn them into clinicians with a little over 2 years of intense medical education. Just like with medical school, there is no need for previous HCE (or even extensive life experience) for a student to succeed in these relatively standardized programs, just the ability to absorb an incredible amount of information in a short amount of time.




I disagree with you here, along with your entire premise of using credit hours to compare the educational value of programs. There is far too much subjectivity in assigning credit hours, and credit hours do not capture the difficulty/intensity of the class. For example, Chemistry for Nursing is a 3 credit hour course, yet so is Biochemistry. Biochemistry is exponentially more difficult than Chemistry for Nursing.

Who said anything about educational value of programs? I am stating that credit hours are assigned on how much material is to be studied and learned. Your example of gen chem vs biochem makes no logic in what your trying to say. So that would mean that a PhD would have 1200 credit hours for 1 class? Again, it shows you that NP school is lacking in the amount of material covered. That is based off the amount of credit hours. That has nothing to do with how "hard" that class is compared to something else. Just that you will have more work and studying to do with a 5 credit hour class vs a 3. The example was Dukes PA program does more "learning" via the amount of credit hours in the pre clinical phase than the entire NP program. That's a point worth noting.