PA vs NP

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GLENMARK

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For an non-science BA holder, Which program is better? In term of Study time ,tuitionand Future pay.

PA: two years and $85,000/yr pay. $80,000/tuition (Priate)
NP: three years and $80,000/yr pay. $50,000/tuition (State U.)

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Going by a pure economic perspective, it would seem that going the PA route would be more lucrative.
 
Also depends on what you want to do with the degree.
 
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Interesting....actually NP will take more like 4-5 years. You have to have a BSN before going into NP school. I have a BA and an ASN and PA is much quicker due to not having to get another bachelors first.
 
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Interesting....actually NP will take more like 4-5 years. You have to have a BSN before going into NP school. I have a BA and an ASN and PA is much quicker due to not having to get another bachelors first.
If you already have a ba/bs there are accelerated programs in which you get the bsn after 1 yr and the msn yr 3.
 
Once you control for gender and specialty, PA/NP pay is the same. There have been a lot of threads on this, but basically if you care about independent practice (huge plus, IMO), teaching/research, OB or psych, I'd do NP. I'd do PA if I wanted inpatient/surgery/EM. Primary care (out-patient) is kind of a toss up, but I'd probably go w/NP depending on the state.
 
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If you already have a ba/bs there are accelerated programs in which you get the bsn after 1 yr and the msn yr 3.

These programs are becoming more and more rare as nuring is changing the education standards toward the DNP. I had always planned to do UMD RN to MSN but they discontinued that program the semester before I graduated...so now I'm going the PA route.
 
Yes, I agree with Zenman. I think when choosing between PA and NP, one really important factor is what kind of work you want to do after graduation. Where you are beginning from and educational path are often important considerations, but nothing would sway me more than practice options available to me after licensure.

Are you certain about those salary numbers? I make a lot more than 80K as a new graduate NP in primary care (will celebrate my 1st year anniversary this week) but I am effectively in independent practice. I have no idea what PAs in my area earn, by I think it is essentially the same.

Good luck, whatever you decide.
 
Interesting....actually NP will take more like 4-5 years. You have to have a BSN before going into NP school. I have a BA and an ASN and PA is much quicker due to not having to get another bachelors first.

This is completely and totally false. There are plenty of direct entry MSN programs for those with a bachelor's degree in something other than nursing. Also, there are RN-MSN bridge programs for associates level nurses.
 
These programs are becoming more and more rare as nuring is changing the education standards toward the DNP. I had always planned to do UMD RN to MSN but they discontinued that program the semester before I graduated...so now I'm going the PA route.

There are still plenty of direct entry programs available. Nursing is not changing the education standard toward the DNP, that was simply a recommendation and many have misinterpreted it as a mandate. There are some MSN programs that have switched to DNP, but there are still many reputable direct entry programs available and will be for the foreseeable future. Yale, UCSF, Columbia, U Penn, just to name a few.
 
, but basically if you care about independent practice (huge plus, IMO).

:rolleyes:

Yes, independent practice because you are practicing advanced practice nursing, not medicine, and under the authority of the Board of Nursing not medicine. Huge joke, all politics. Can't wait until MD's crash the DNP party in a few years when there will be a huge supply of MD's without residencies. :laugh:
 
To the OP, I'd go PA. A lot of physicians prefer PA's to (D)NP's as the preferred midlevel provider because of their medical based training vs nursing theory. This preference will only grow with the degree creep DNP programs which are an insult to physicians.

PA's are in every field. They are definitely preferred in the ER and surgical setting. Also more and more PA's are in outpatient settings in primary care, specialty clinics such as GI and cardiology.
 
To the OP, I'd go PA. A lot of physicians prefer PA's to (D)NP's as the preferred midlevel provider because of their medical based training vs nursing theory. This preference will only grow with the degree creep DNP programs which are an insult to physicians.

PA's are in every field. They are definitely preferred in the ER and surgical setting. Also more and more PA's are in outpatient settings in primary care, specialty clinics such as GI and cardiology.

Just don't use a PA in psych unless they have additional training.

And just FYI:

http://www.pewstates.org/projects/s...-step-in-where-doctors-are-scarce-85899434244

Nurse Practitioners Step In Where Doctors Are Scarce

By Christine Vestal, Staff Writer

(AP)
BUCKINGHAM COUNTY, Virginia – Most people in this rural logging area have only one choice when they need medical care: the Central Virginia Community Health Center. On most days, at least 200 people show up at the center seeking treatment for maladies ranging from sore throats to depression to cavities.

The health center typically has four doctors on duty, but the clinical director, Dr. Randall Bayshore, says his staff would never meet local demand if it weren’t for the two nurse practitioners who provide the same care, to the same number of patients, as the doctors.

Buckingham County is one of roughly 5,800 U.S. communities, with about 55 million residents, that have a shortage of primary care physicians. In these places, many residents are forced to forgo regular checkups and treatment for chronic diseases such as hypertension and diabetes — harming their overall health.

In 2014, when the new federal health care law extends insurance coverage to 30 million more people, the doctor shortage is likely to get worse. Anticipating this, states and the federal government are offering repayment of medical school loans and other incentives to encourage newly minted doctors to practice primary care in needy areas.

But efforts like these take years to pay off. So as an additional step, states are trying to loosen decades-old licensing restrictions, known as “scope of practice laws,” that prevent nurse practitioners from playing the lead role in providing basic health services.

Nurse practitioners, registered nurses with advanced degrees, are capable of providing primary-care services such as diagnosing and treating illnesses, prescribing medication, ordering tests and referring patients to specialists. But only 18 states and the District of Columbia currently allow nurse practitioners to perform these services independently of a doctor.

Political tension

A 2010 Institute of Medicine report, “The Future of Nursing,” cited nearly 50 years of academic studies and patient surveys in concluding that primary care provided by nurse practitioners has been as safe and effective as care provided by doctors. But efforts to change “scope of practice” laws to give nurse practitioners more independence have run into stiff opposition.

Organized physician groups, which hold sway in most legislatures, are reluctant to cede professional turf to nurses. Arguing that nurse practitioners lack the necessary level of medical training, they insist that it is unsafe for patients to be treated by nurse practitioners without a doctor’s supervision.

Some doctors also have a financial incentive to limit nurses’ independence. Often carrying heavy medical school loan debt, they can be loath to see their revenue diverted by competing health care services, particularly those with lower fees. The Federal Trade Commission has weighed in on legislative efforts to give nurse practitioners more autonomy in several states, arguing that physician groups have no valid reason for blocking such laws other than to thwart their competition.

Virginia is a case-in-point. After several failed attempts over the last decade, the legislature finally passed a nursing “scope of practice” law in 2011 that doctors and most nurse practitioners in the state say is a step forward. According to its authors, the aim of the law is greater patient access to primary care across the state.

Instead of requiring supervision by a doctor, Virginia’s new law requires nurse practitioners to be part of a doctor-led “patient care team.” And instead of limiting doctors to overseeing just four nurse practitioners, the law allows them to work with up to six. Most important, it removes a requirement that doctors regularly work in the same location as the nurses they supervise. Instead, the statute allows doctors and nurses in separate locations to use telemedicine techniques to collaborate.

The American Medical Association and the American Academy of Family Physicians have called Virginia’s first-of-its-kind law a model for other states that still require on-site doctor supervision of nurse practitioners.

According to Dr. Cynthia Romero, who was president of the Virginia Medical Society when it negotiated with the Virginia Council of Nurse Practitioners to create the law, “the turning point was when both sides realized that the primary focus had to be what was best for patients.” She says the new law is a step forward for patients and builds a bridge between doctors and nurses. “The road ahead is limitless,” she says.

Mark Coles, the chief negotiator for the nurse practitioners’ council, is less enthusiastic but says the law represents progress. “It gives us a seat at the table in the legislature for future improvements,” he says.

But in certain parts of the state, nurse practitioners say the new law may be a step in the wrong direction. They worry about new language that requires them to consult with supervising doctors on all “complex” cases. Although rules scheduled to be released next month may clarify which cases are considered complex, some nurse practitioners fear the definition may be subject to differing interpretations.

The American Academy of Nurse Practitioners and other nursing organizations recently issued a position paper opposing the whole idea of requiring nurse practitioners to join a doctor-led team if they want to practice to the full extent of their training.

“We broadly support team-based care when it reflects the needs of patients, says Tay Kopanos, head of government affairs for the academy. But when a nurse practitioner can’t bring her best efforts to a clinic without joining a doctor’s team, Kopanos says, “we do not support it.”

Difficult terrain
About 300 miles southwest of Buckingham County – in the Appalachian Mountains where Virginia shares borders with Tennessee and Kentucky—the shortage of health care providers is profound. Working out of a converted recreational vehicle known as the Health Wagon, two nurse practitioners, Teresa Gardner and Paula Meade, do their best to serve a four-county region where idle coal mines have left many jobless and without health insurance.

The non-profit Health Wagon, started in 1980 by a Catholic missionary, has expanded its reach over the years to meet the growing demand of a population that is sicker than most in the country. But the steep and winding roads, often coated with heavy snow and ice in winter, make it dangerous and sometimes impossible to reach everyone in need.

At the Central Virginia Community Health Center in Buckingham County, where doctors and nurses practice side-by-side, the new Virginia law may not present a problem. The kind of ongoing collaboration between doctors and nurse practitioners called for in the law happens naturally in the course of every day. The same thing goes for doctors and nurse practitioners working together in hospital settings.

But, Meade says, team collaboration could be dicey in the hollers of Appalachia. “I’d love to start every day with a multi-disciplinary team meeting,” she says. “Nothing would make me happier.” Driving a mobile unit along treacherous highways and seeing at least 45 patients every day in cramped quarters, however, doesn’t leave much time for meetings.

Sicker than most
What she and Gardner fear most is the requirement in the Virginia law that nurse practitioners consult their lead doctor on all “complex” cases. Gardner and Meade collaborate with each other throughout every day and they often seek advice from their volunteer supervisor, Dr. Joseph Smiddy, who at 70 years old, still has a day job practicing medicine across the border in Kingsport, Tennessee.

“Dr. Smiddy would murder me if I called him every time a complex case walked through the door,” Gardner says. “They’re all complex. Most of them are train wrecks. I’d love to treat someone with a common cold.”

For his part, Smiddy says any law that would increase the pressure on nurse practitioners willing to work in remote mountain areas has got to be the wrong approach. He plans to ask his lawyer to review the statute to see whether it increases his own medical liability as a volunteer team leader.

He agrees that nearly all of the Health Wagon’s cases are complex, no matter how the law defines that term. The area has a high incidence of COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease), heart disease, diabetes, obesity, cancer, prescription drug abuse and mental illness. More than a few patients have 10 diagnoses, Smiddy says, and many are on 30 different medications.

“Teresa and Paula are brilliant doctors,” Smiddy says. “They need to be a national example – a model for how to do it for the rest of the country… We’re not ever going to have enough doctors willing to ride around in a mobile unit the way they do. They’re the real deal. We need to do everything we can to support them.” he says.
 
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Just don't use a PA in psych unless they have additional training.

And just FYI:

http://www.pewstates.org/projects/s...-step-in-where-doctors-are-scarce-85899434244

Nurse Practitioners Step In Where Doctors Are Scarce

By Christine Vestal, Staff Writer

(AP)
BUCKINGHAM COUNTY, Virginia – Most people in this rural logging area have only one choice when they need medical care: the Central Virginia Community Health Center. On most days, at least 200 people show up at the center seeking treatment for maladies ranging from sore throats to depression to cavities.

The health center typically has four doctors on duty, but the clinical director, Dr. Randall Bayshore, says his staff would never meet local demand if it weren’t for the two nurse practitioners who provide the same care, to the same number of patients, as the doctors.

Buckingham County is one of roughly 5,800 U.S. communities, with about 55 million residents, that have a shortage of primary care physicians. In these places, many residents are forced to forgo regular checkups and treatment for chronic diseases such as hypertension and diabetes — harming their overall health.

In 2014, when the new federal health care law extends insurance coverage to 30 million more people, the doctor shortage is likely to get worse. Anticipating this, states and the federal government are offering repayment of medical school loans and other incentives to encourage newly minted doctors to practice primary care in needy areas.

But efforts like these take years to pay off. So as an additional step, states are trying to loosen decades-old licensing restrictions, known as “scope of practice laws,” that prevent nurse practitioners from playing the lead role in providing basic health services.

Nurse practitioners, registered nurses with advanced degrees, are capable of providing primary-care services such as diagnosing and treating illnesses, prescribing medication, ordering tests and referring patients to specialists. But only 18 states and the District of Columbia currently allow nurse practitioners to perform these services independently of a doctor.

Political tension

A 2010 Institute of Medicine report, “The Future of Nursing,” cited nearly 50 years of academic studies and patient surveys in concluding that primary care provided by nurse practitioners has been as safe and effective as care provided by doctors. But efforts to change “scope of practice” laws to give nurse practitioners more independence have run into stiff opposition.

Organized physician groups, which hold sway in most legislatures, are reluctant to cede professional turf to nurses. Arguing that nurse practitioners lack the necessary level of medical training, they insist that it is unsafe for patients to be treated by nurse practitioners without a doctor’s supervision.

Some doctors also have a financial incentive to limit nurses’ independence. Often carrying heavy medical school loan debt, they can be loath to see their revenue diverted by competing health care services, particularly those with lower fees. The Federal Trade Commission has weighed in on legislative efforts to give nurse practitioners more autonomy in several states, arguing that physician groups have no valid reason for blocking such laws other than to thwart their competition.

Virginia is a case-in-point. After several failed attempts over the last decade, the legislature finally passed a nursing “scope of practice” law in 2011 that doctors and most nurse practitioners in the state say is a step forward. According to its authors, the aim of the law is greater patient access to primary care across the state.

Instead of requiring supervision by a doctor, Virginia’s new law requires nurse practitioners to be part of a doctor-led “patient care team.” And instead of limiting doctors to overseeing just four nurse practitioners, the law allows them to work with up to six. Most important, it removes a requirement that doctors regularly work in the same location as the nurses they supervise. Instead, the statute allows doctors and nurses in separate locations to use telemedicine techniques to collaborate.

The American Medical Association and the American Academy of Family Physicians have called Virginia’s first-of-its-kind law a model for other states that still require on-site doctor supervision of nurse practitioners.

According to Dr. Cynthia Romero, who was president of the Virginia Medical Society when it negotiated with the Virginia Council of Nurse Practitioners to create the law, “the turning point was when both sides realized that the primary focus had to be what was best for patients.” She says the new law is a step forward for patients and builds a bridge between doctors and nurses. “The road ahead is limitless,” she says.

Mark Coles, the chief negotiator for the nurse practitioners’ council, is less enthusiastic but says the law represents progress. “It gives us a seat at the table in the legislature for future improvements,” he says.

But in certain parts of the state, nurse practitioners say the new law may be a step in the wrong direction. They worry about new language that requires them to consult with supervising doctors on all “complex” cases. Although rules scheduled to be released next month may clarify which cases are considered complex, some nurse practitioners fear the definition may be subject to differing interpretations.

The American Academy of Nurse Practitioners and other nursing organizations recently issued a position paper opposing the whole idea of requiring nurse practitioners to join a doctor-led team if they want to practice to the full extent of their training.

“We broadly support team-based care when it reflects the needs of patients, says Tay Kopanos, head of government affairs for the academy. But when a nurse practitioner can’t bring her best efforts to a clinic without joining a doctor’s team, Kopanos says, “we do not support it.”

Difficult terrain
About 300 miles southwest of Buckingham County – in the Appalachian Mountains where Virginia shares borders with Tennessee and Kentucky—the shortage of health care providers is profound. Working out of a converted recreational vehicle known as the Health Wagon, two nurse practitioners, Teresa Gardner and Paula Meade, do their best to serve a four-county region where idle coal mines have left many jobless and without health insurance.

The non-profit Health Wagon, started in 1980 by a Catholic missionary, has expanded its reach over the years to meet the growing demand of a population that is sicker than most in the country. But the steep and winding roads, often coated with heavy snow and ice in winter, make it dangerous and sometimes impossible to reach everyone in need.

At the Central Virginia Community Health Center in Buckingham County, where doctors and nurses practice side-by-side, the new Virginia law may not present a problem. The kind of ongoing collaboration between doctors and nurse practitioners called for in the law happens naturally in the course of every day. The same thing goes for doctors and nurse practitioners working together in hospital settings.

But, Meade says, team collaboration could be dicey in the hollers of Appalachia. “I’d love to start every day with a multi-disciplinary team meeting,” she says. “Nothing would make me happier.” Driving a mobile unit along treacherous highways and seeing at least 45 patients every day in cramped quarters, however, doesn’t leave much time for meetings.

Sicker than most
What she and Gardner fear most is the requirement in the Virginia law that nurse practitioners consult their lead doctor on all “complex” cases. Gardner and Meade collaborate with each other throughout every day and they often seek advice from their volunteer supervisor, Dr. Joseph Smiddy, who at 70 years old, still has a day job practicing medicine across the border in Kingsport, Tennessee.

“Dr. Smiddy would murder me if I called him every time a complex case walked through the door,” Gardner says. “They’re all complex. Most of them are train wrecks. I’d love to treat someone with a common cold.”

For his part, Smiddy says any law that would increase the pressure on nurse practitioners willing to work in remote mountain areas has got to be the wrong approach. He plans to ask his lawyer to review the statute to see whether it increases his own medical liability as a volunteer team leader.

He agrees that nearly all of the Health Wagon’s cases are complex, no matter how the law defines that term. The area has a high incidence of COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease), heart disease, diabetes, obesity, cancer, prescription drug abuse and mental illness. More than a few patients have 10 diagnoses, Smiddy says, and many are on 30 different medications.

“Teresa and Paula are brilliant doctors,” Smiddy says. “They need to be a national example – a model for how to do it for the rest of the country… We’re not ever going to have enough doctors willing to ride around in a mobile unit the way they do. They’re the real deal. We need to do everything we can to support them.” he says.

Decent story but what sticks out to me this old timer called those NPs "Doctors" I guess he has forgotten the rigors of medical school and residency to say that so lightly....
 
Once you control for gender and specialty, PA/NP pay is the same. There have been a lot of threads on this, but basically if you care about independent practice (huge plus, IMO), teaching/research, OB or psych, I'd do NP. I'd do PA if I wanted inpatient/surgery/EM. Primary care (out-patient) is kind of a toss up, but I'd probably go w/NP depending on the state.

So do you think your ready for independent practice right after graduation? If you do, you will be doing your patients (and yourself) a disservice.
 
So do you think your ready for independent practice right after graduation? If you do, you will be doing your patients (and yourself) a disservice.

Pretty certain I never said that. I want the option in my career, so that steered me towards NP. No need to be a drama queen.
 
Pretty certain I never said that. I want the option in my career, so that steered me towards NP. No need to be a drama queen.

There would be an underlying reason you want the option wouldn't it.... Not a drama anything but I disagree with MLP independent (PA/NP)practice. I can tell you there is a ton of stuff I learned in med school already that I never seen or heard of as a PA.

And let me say this annoyed- I see PAs and NPs both if I get sick but I just know our level training is not equal to that of a Physician so if I were to have something complex occur I want him/her as the head
 
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There would be an underlying reason you want the option wouldn't it.... Not a drama anything but I disagree with MLP independent (PA/NP)practice. I can tell you there is a ton of stuff I learned in med school already that I never seen or heard of as a PA.

And let me say this annoyed- I see PAs and NPs both if I get sick but I just know our level training is not equal to that of a Physician so if I were to have something complex occur I want him/her as the head

No. The underlying reason why I want to live in an independent practice state is so that I have that option later down the line. I never said I planned on having my own independent practice the second I graduate. There's a difference.

Meh, people are free to see whoever they want. MD, DO, PA, NP, whatever. I've been to good ones and bad ones, surprisingly, it had little to do with the initials after their name. Let people see who they want and if physicians are as innately superior as they seem to believe, then they have nothing to worry about, right?
 
Decent story but what sticks out to me this old timer called those NPs "Doctors" I guess he has forgotten the rigors of medical school and residency to say that so lightly....

Naw, he's probably just doesn't have malignant egophrenia.
 
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There would be an underlying reason you want the option wouldn't it.... Not a drama anything but I disagree with MLP independent (PA/NP)practice. I can tell you there is a ton of stuff I learned in med school already that I never seen or heard of as a PA.

And let me say this annoyed- I see PAs and NPs both if I get sick but I just know our level training is not equal to that of a Physician so if I were to have something complex occur I want him/her as the head

Give us some examples. I really want to know because every damn time (so far) I consult a psychiatrist they wouldn't do anything different, including with a guy yesterday with visual, auditory, olfactory, and tactile hallucinations, only at night, who I'm sending for neuro consult, and then maybe a sleep consult. Maybe there's a ton of stuff locked in their brain that's waiting on a zebra to come trotting by.
 
Naw, he's probably just doesn't have malignant egophrenia.

Is there a Zen treatment for malignant egophrenia? What would a Zen master prescribe for someone with that? Perhaps some cupping therapy? Or maybe a Zen man would perform a special Zen oil massage. Perhaps a very highly trained Zen man could perform a special ritual he learned in from an ancient Chinese Zen master.....

Or, we could try to understand that a "real" Doctor that you find in a hospital or medical clinic has 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-8 years of intense residency to prepare him/her for independent practice. Meanwhile some others who go to 4 years of college and 2-3 years of advanced nursing/management school are running around calling themselves "doctor" and demanding independent practice as well. I can understand why the real Doctor's might get their ego's ruffled.

But then again, I am not full of Zen.
 
Give us some examples. I really want to know because every damn time (so far) I consult a psychiatrist they wouldn't do anything different, including with a guy yesterday with visual, auditory, olfactory, and tactile hallucinations, only at night, who I'm sending for neuro consult, and then maybe a sleep consult. Maybe there's a ton of stuff locked in their brain that's waiting on a zebra to come trotting by.

Hey Zenman, in your professional opinion, would the above statement be considered a sign of malignant egophrenia??
 
Give us some examples. I really want to know because every damn time (so far) I consult a psychiatrist they wouldn't do anything different, including with a guy yesterday with visual, auditory, olfactory, and tactile hallucinations, only at night, who I'm sending for neuro consult, and then maybe a sleep consult. Maybe there's a ton of stuff locked in their brain that's waiting on a zebra to come trotting by.

Got an ideal for you->>go to medical school and you too will find all that handy information out. Maybe your Attendings are lazy and could care less as far as your patient care as long as your not about to kill a patient. Part of me wonders what formal chart reviews would show as far as deviations from standard of care on your part? By formal I mean truly expert(we have random charts sent off to a major medical center and it is broken down and reviewed by experts in that field as well as private practice attendings.)
 
Is there a Zen treatment for malignant egophrenia? What would a Zen master prescribe for someone with that? Perhaps some cupping therapy? Or maybe a Zen man would perform a special Zen oil massage. Perhaps a very highly trained Zen man could perform a special ritual he learned in from an ancient Chinese Zen master.....

Or, we could try to understand that a "real" Doctor that you find in a hospital or medical clinic has 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-8 years of intense residency to prepare him/her for independent practice. Meanwhile some others who go to 4 years of college and 2-3 years of advanced nursing/management school are running around calling themselves "doctor" and demanding independent practice as well. I can understand why the real Doctor's might get their ego's ruffled.

But then again, I am not full of Zen.
:thumbup:
 
Is there a Zen treatment for malignant egophrenia? What would a Zen master prescribe for someone with that? Perhaps some cupping therapy? Or maybe a Zen man would perform a special Zen oil massage. Perhaps a very highly trained Zen man could perform a special ritual he learned in from an ancient Chinese Zen master.....

Or, we could try to understand that a "real" Doctor that you find in a hospital or medical clinic has 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3-8 years of intense residency to prepare him/her for independent practice. Meanwhile some others who go to 4 years of college and 2-3 years of advanced nursing/management school are running around calling themselves "doctor" and demanding independent practice as well. I can understand why the real Doctor's might get their ego's ruffled.

But then again, I am not full of Zen.

You're not full of anything but an overabundance of adolescence zeal to be a real adult some day.:xf:
 
Hey Zenman, in your professional opinion, would the above statement be considered a sign of malignant egophrenia??

In my professional opinion it's a request for you to backup your professional statement and provide some examples.
 
Got an ideal for you->>go to medical school and you too will find all that handy information out. Maybe your Attendings are lazy and could care less as far as your patient care as long as your not about to kill a patient. Part of me wonders what formal chart reviews would show as far as deviations from standard of care on your part? By formal I mean truly expert(we have random charts sent off to a major medical center and it is broken down and reviewed by experts in that field as well as private practice attendings.)

Why would I want to go to medical school only to find out I can only make statements and not back them up with examples? You know, be like you.:laugh:
 
But then again, I am not full of Zen.

Here this might help with your lack of beneficial education (you don't know what you don't know):

Jon Kabat-Zinn, Ph.D. is internationally known for his work as a scientist, writer, and meditation teacher engaged in bringing mindfulness into the mainstream of medicine and society. He is Professor of Medicine emeritus at the University of Massachusetts Medical School, where he was founding executive director of the Center for Mindfulness in Medicine, Health Care, and Society, and founder (in 1979) and former director of its world-renowned Stress Reduction Clinic. He is the author of two best-selling books: Full Catastrophe Living: Using the Wisdom of Your Body and Mind to Face Stress, Pain and Illness (Dell, 1990), published in Spanish, German, Russian, Japanese, Italian, Dutch, Korean, Finnish, and French and Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life (Hyperion, 1994), published in German, Italian, French, Spanish, Czech, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Russian, Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese, Hebrew, Polish, Vietnamese, Korean, Croatian, Bulgarian, Finnish, and soon, in Chinese and Norwegian. He is also co-author, with his wife Myla, of Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting (Hyperion, 1997). Everyday Blessings was rated by Amazon.com as one of the top ten books of 1998 in the inspirational category. He is also the author of Coming to Our Senses: Healing Ourselves and the World Through Mindfulness (Hyperion, 2005), The Mindful Way Through Depression: Freeing Yourself from Chronic Unhappiness (with Williams, Teasdale, and Segal - Guildford, 2007), Arriving at Your Own Door (Hyperion, 2007), a book of excerpts from Coming to Our Senses, and Letting Everything Become Your Teacher (Bantam Dell, 2009), a book of excerpts from Full Catastrophe Living.
 
Why would I want to go to medical school only to find out I can only make statements and not back them up with examples? You know, be like you.:laugh:

It's not that I don't have them but why spoon feed. I have a friend now doing the spoon fed version of becoming a MLP and it will take her five years to graduate because she is going so slow in her NP program.

Also there is a reason why there is a PA-Physician bridge and not a NP-Physician and I honestly believe its because the majority of NP programs couldn't match the rigor of PA school among other reasons....
 
Also there is a reason why there is a PA-Physician bridge and not a NP-Physician and I honestly believe its because the majority of NP programs couldn't match the rigor of PA school among other reasons....

And here I thought it had something to do with NPs being under the BON and PAs being under the BOM. Look, you've made it clear, NPs are all terrible, PAs are okay, but the only true path to the light is to be a physician. Obviously, since you're now a med student, that's what you're going to think. Fine. Not everyone agrees.

Also, I think it's really funny that you seem unable to come up with any specific examples of the "tons of stuff" you've learned as a med student that you'd never heard of in PA school.
 
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And here I thought it had something to do with NPs being under the BON and PAs being under the BOM. Look, you've made it clear, NPs are all terrible, PAs are okay, but the only true path to the light is to be a physician. Obviously, since you're now a med student, that's what you're going to think. Fine. Not everyone agrees.

Also, I think it's really funny that you seem unable to come up with any specific examples of the "tons of stuff" you've learned as a med student that you'd never heard of in PA school.


Lol. Well that is part of it as well but that would be a minor thing to fix(The BOM/BON issues). But there is so much variance between programs NP wise which is another problem (weaker P.A. schools have this problem as well but as a majority you know what your getting from a PA cirriculum.).

AIso I honestly do not have a problem with NPs(I have encouraged two of my friends(one of them being my best friend) to go that route but I have a problem with independent practice by midlevel providers.

To your last comment->Go and grab a USMLE Step 1 Book or go review some DIT videos and there lies your answer(unless they are teaching you guy's the histology of dz processes or the biochemical problems in disease processes now.). Like I said in a previous post I feel no need to spoon feed.

PS-Give up trying to guess my feeling toward midlevels. You never will be correct in your guess. Your tone seems very angry as well.
 
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Also, I think it's really funny that you seem unable to come up with any specific examples of the "tons of stuff" you've learned as a med student that you'd never heard of in PA school.

He won't be able to. He's like the thoracic surgeon I went to business school with who said he was useless outside the OR. It obvious there needs to be more liberal arts required before med school.
 
Lol. Well that is part of it as well but that would be a minor thing to fix(The BOM/BON issues). But there is so much variance between programs NP wise which is another problem (weaker P.A. schools have this problem as well but as a majority you know what your getting from a PA cirriculum.).

Perhaps having a variance means you have a greater selection depending on your specific needs vs churning out one product.

AIso I honestly do not have a problem with NPs(I have encouraged two of my friends(one of them being my best friend) to go that route but I have a problem with independent practice by midlevel providers.

To your last comment->Go and grab a USMLE Step 1 Book or go review some DIT videos and there lies your answer(unless they are teaching you guy's the histology of dz processes or the biochemical problems in disease processes now.). Like I said in a previous post I feel no need to spoon feed.

Right here on my desk I have "Case Files Psychiatry of 60 cases with USMLE-style questions to help you master core competencies to excel in the clerkship and ace the shelf exam." Yep, I barely can understand the words in this book nor the "Deja Review" which is also right in front of me.:D
 
Got an ideal for you->>go to medical school and you too will find all that handy information out. Maybe your Attendings are lazy and could care less as far as your patient care as long as your not about to kill a patient. Part of me wonders what formal chart reviews would show as far as deviations from standard of care on your part? By formal I mean truly expert(we have random charts sent off to a major medical center and it is broken down and reviewed by experts in that field as well as private practice attendings.)

Don't worry about my documentation as it's available to military providers all over the world and you can be sure plenty of people are looking at it.
 
It's not that I don't have them but why spoon feed. I have a friend now doing the spoon fed version of becoming a MLP and it will take her five years to graduate because she is going so slow in her NP program.

Also there is a reason why there is a PA-Physician bridge and not a NP-Physician and I honestly believe its because the majority of NP programs couldn't match the rigor of PA school among other reasons....

If I needed to be spoon feed by you I wouldn't have been placed by the chief of psychiatry to be the only prescriber in a 13 member team embedded in an Army brigade. The other teams here have psychiatrists.

The reason there are no NP-MD bridges should be clear if you looked at the curriculum...it's different than the baby doctor program.

Rigor...so slamming through a program as fast as you can equals a quality education? I think not. I had plenty of time in school to learn, not memorize, and could look up much info related to my patient's condition, meds, etc so that I could retain it.

BTW, I have military PA's shadow me and others in my department. I certainly don't see the "rigor" in their 3 week rotation in psych. The last one just left to do 2 weeks "observing" in anesthesia.
 
He won't be able to. He's like the thoracic surgeon I went to business school with who said he was useless outside the OR. It obvious there needs to be more liberal arts required before med school.

Had a ton of liberal arts good stuff and good gpa boosters ;)
 
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Perhaps having a variance means you have a greater selection depending on your specific needs vs churning out one product.



Right here on my desk I have "Case Files Psychiatry of 60 cases with USMLE-style questions to help you master core competencies to excel in the clerkship and ace the shelf exam." Yep, I barely can understand the words in this book nor the "Deja Review" which is also right in front of me.:D

Again step 1 material. I used that in PA school(old step two stuff it wasnt déjà vau or case files) also the step 2 for psych is another easy txt.
 
If I needed to be spoon feed by you I wouldn't have been placed by the chief of psychiatry to be the only prescriber in a 13 member team embedded in an Army brigade. The other teams here have psychiatrists.

The reason there are no NP-MD bridges should be clear if you looked at the curriculum...it's different than the baby doctor program.

Rigor...so slamming through a program as fast as you can equals a quality education? I think not. I had plenty of time in school to learn, not memorize, and could look up much info related to my patient's condition, meds, etc so that I could retain it.

BTW, I have military PA's shadow me and others in my department. I certainly don't see the "rigor" in their 3 week rotation in psych. The last one just left to do 2 weeks "observing" in anesthesia.

Lol. Why not sit in on some med school level classes to get a feel of the level of intensity? Like you said you don't know what you don't know.

Lol baby doctor program how cute but that program is >> then a dnp. I have had NP colleagues come back to medical school after being NPs. I wonder why especially when you guys have "independent practice"

BTW since we are going to give anecdotal experiences ill give you a few. I had a NP colleague doing FM that tried to send me an inferior wall MI stating and I quote "he is having chest pain but I think he is okay for work up and dc." I asked for a fax of the EKG stat and sure enough it was an MI told him to call the ambulance service beside their clinic and have it shipped to the hospital up the street(which is closer but our hospital is where the NP had admit privilege)

Also had the same NP admit some other cardiac issues that ended up not so well either. Good NP when it comes to basic stuff(well child check type things)and better than myself at stuff like psych but not good management of complex patients. That person no longer admits to the hospital....

Lastly when I was still a student PA I witnessed a colleague teach NPs how to do I&d's as well as how is suture and splint. I already knew how to do those things as a student why wouldn't an np who had been out several years not know??

So you can insult (good try)a PAs generalist training but as a whole it gives them flexibility in many areas of medicine not afforded to someone in certain types of np programs(and I agree Psych is not a strong suit for PAs) Like I have said before,my first job I took I replaced an NP because she couldn't take care of pediatric patients due to training limitations.
 
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Lol. Why not sit in on some med school level classes to get a feel of the level of intensity? Like you said you don't know what you don't know.

Lol baby doctor program how cute but that program is >> then a dnp. I have had NP colleagues come back to medical school after being NPs. I wonder why especially when you guys have "independent practice"

BTW since we are going to give anecdotal experiences ill give you a few. I had a NP colleague doing FM that tried to send me an inferior wall MI stating and I quote "he is having chest pain but I think he is okay for work up and dc." I asked for a fax of the EKG stat and sure enough it was an MI told him to call the ambulance service beside their clinic and have it shipped to the hospital up the street(which is closer but our hospital is where the NP had admit privilege)

Also had the same NP admit some other cardiac issues that ended up not so well either. Good NP when it comes to basic stuff(well child check type things)and better than myself at stuff like psych but not good management of complex patients. That person no longer admits to the hospital....

Lastly when I was still a student PA I witnessed a colleague teach NPs how to do I&d's as well as how is suture and splint. I already knew how to do those things as a student why wouldn't an np who had been out several years not know??

So you can insult (good try)a PAs generalist training but as a whole it gives them flexibility in many areas of medicine not afforded to someone in certain types of np programs(and I agree Psych is not a strong suit for PAs) Like I have said before,my first job I took I replaced an NP because she couldn't take care of pediatric patients due to training limitations.

All these stories can also apply to MDs from well-respected programs. I'm not complaining about PAs in general, just that the well-respected military program needs some tightening up in some areas, IMO.
 
All these stories can also apply to MDs from well-respected programs. I'm not complaining about PAs in general, just that the well-respected military program needs some tightening up in some areas, IMO.


That would be true.
 
:D
Don't worry about my documentation as it's available to military providers all over the world and you can be sure plenty of people are looking at it.


Okay, okay, okay......is THAT malignant egophrenia???


Sorry, I'm just a dumb old PA trained in that medical knowledge, not the Zen model of holistic karma-straightening Himilayan nursing model that the mighty Zman uses to cure any of the world's ailments, so I am still looking for the answer there.

Maybe I should use Wikipedia....My understanding is that you use that quite a bit Zenman.
 
If I needed to be spoon feed by you I wouldn't have been placed by the chief of psychiatry to be the only prescriber in a 13 member team embedded in an Army brigade. The other teams here have psychiatrists.


Okay, okay, okay....is THAT malignant egophrenism?

No?

Okay, back to Wikipedia so I can be as smart as Zen.
 
:D


Okay, okay, okay......is THAT malignant egophrenia???

No, it's not malignant egophrenia. It's a fact, same as you saying you're a PA. Egophrenia would be me telling you how great I think I am.


Sorry, I'm just a dumb old PA trained in that medical knowledge, not the Zen model of holistic karma-straightening Himilayan nursing model that the mighty Zman uses to cure any of the world's ailments, so I am still looking for the answer there.

Feb 5th I'll be presenting at grand rounds on four different cultural approaches in the treatment of PTSD. You should come so you'll learn more than one approach (tool) to everything.

Maybe I should use Wikipedia....My understanding is that you use that quite a bit Zenman.


Again, I only use wikipedia when dealing with pervasive developmental disordered individuals.
 
Feb 5th I'll be presenting at grand rounds on four different cultural approaches in the treatment of PTSD. You should come so you'll learn more than one approach (tool) to everything.

Egophrenia would be me telling you how great I think I am.

Hmmmm...walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck....

Must be Zen.:laugh:
 
Just FYI, PA's do exist in psychiatry as well, with no additional training beyond PA school. I personally know two PA's that do psych. One does purely psych, another does psych part time while being full time in the ED.
 
Just FYI, PA's do exist in psychiatry as well, with no additional training beyond PA school. I personally know two PA's that do psych. One does purely psych, another does psych part time while being full time in the ED.

Yes, I'm aware they do...unfortunately.
 
Yes, I'm aware they do...unfortunately.
someone with a prior job in psych(tech, msw, etc) who does a strong psych rotation and elective will do quite well practicing in the specialty right out of school. 1 rotation + 1 elective can sometimes be 16+ weeks of psych training....
 
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