Pags, Voxel and other Rad-persons

[radiology]

If a program says that you start as a PGY-2 does that mean that you can't apply until you are an intern or that you apply simultaneously for internship and residency?

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[ussdfiant]

Sorry to leech off your question, but this raises another one from me. Pags, with this type of program would one be able to do the AOA intern year (to get licensed in my home state of PA, for example) and then apply as a PGY-2? Radiology, where did you find programs starting at PGY-2?

 

[Jim Picotte]

There are two types of Radiology programs out there. Those that include the PGY-1 year (transitional year, about 170 slots) and those that start at PGY-2 year (these are the most common programs, about 730 slots).

All of us going into rads this year who applied to the PGY-2 radiology programs will start in July 2003. For these programs you also have to apply and find a transitional year, prelim medicine or prelim surgery at the same time. As a 4th year med student you apply for both radiology AND transitional programs (it's a pain in the ass). Pags will know for sure but I'm assuming that the DO traditional intern year would count as the PGY-1 year.

If you're a DO applying to programs that have the transitional year included and are in a state that requires this year to practice I think you'd have to get this year approved as a substitute for the traditional DO internship or just go ahead and do these programs but you wouldn't be able to practice in those states that require the traditional DO internship.

Freida has this information for all the programs on whether they are a 4 year radiology program (you start PGY-2) or a 5 year radiology program (you start as PGY-1).

Hopefully I didn't confuse you more. Radiology is a great field. Good luck.

 

[pags]

I agree with the above. I can say with certainty that an AOA approved internship year will satisfy the American Board of Radiology's clinical year requirements.

For more info: <a href="http://www.theabr.org/diagnostic.htm" target="_blank">ABR's certification requirements</a>

 

[Cuts]

So, since there are way more PGY-2 positions out there for Rads, that must mean that those are somewhat less competitive than the PGY-1 spots, right? I'm a 3rd year student hoping to apply for Rads programs this fall... does this mean that I should apply for 1)a transitional year, prelim medicine year, or prelim surgery year AND 2)a seperate PGY-2 Rads program? Wow, I thought I understood the process... now I'm quite confused. Please clear this up for me. Thanks.

 

[Jim Picotte]

I applied for both types of programs and just because there are fewer PGY1 years doesn't mean they're more competitive. I like the radiology programs that have the transitional year included, no need to worry about finding one. Some people would rather do all 5 years at one place while others have a particular transitional program that they really want. So, I personally have to worry about matching into a transitional year program for some of the radiology slots I ranked and some I don't have to worry because all 5 years are included.

I only applied to transitional programs because to be honest I don't feel like being a medicine or surgical intern and doing all that call. Typically transitional years are fairly easy and you can have many months with zero call so that's the way I went. Other people would rather do the prelim years because they really like medicine or surgery.

 

[Voxel]

Cuts, yes if the radiology program you are applying to is an "advanced" position program (starts at the PGY-2 level), then you must apply to both the PGY-1 internship year and the advanced PGY-2 radiology program at the same time. This was quite a pain for me as I went on close to 30 interviews combined (prelim and radiology).

I think the orginal question has been answered. The combined prelim/transitional and radiology (5 yr) programs are actually a bit easier to match into than some of the find your own prelim/transitional and match to our advanced PGY-2 radiology residency programs. So even though there are fewer of them, the perceived quality of the ones I interviewed at where was not as high as some of the advanced programs I saw on the interview trail. I think the combined/categorical (non-advanced) programs fell somwhere in the middle of my rank list (not top or bottom). All the programs at the top (and bottom) of my rank list were advanced positions. Having said all this, I believe it depends on the quality of PGY-2 advanced rads programs that one gets interviews with. I also have two or three transitional programs that I would love to match into next year, so that brought down some of the programs on my list. But that was only one of a multitude of factors that I used to determine my rank list. Radiology is competitive. Your should not worry about matching one or the other but matching somewhere given the competitive nature of radiology. I don't think it really matters unless one is set on doing a transitional year in City X or programs X,Y, or Z.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

I basically applied to a program with no consideration of whether the prelim year is included or not. I am interested in a great radiology training and transitional year training was a distant secondary issue. I had 4 combined radiology programs and 16 non-combined. All four of the combined were at community programs.

Another wrinkle in the whole mess is the programs that have a set number of PGY-2 positions and a set number of ones with the prelim year included. For example, out of 6 total radiology spots, 2 go to those who will do their intern year there and 4 go to people who will not. These are coded differently in the match and you must rank both in order to be considered for all 6 spots and increase your chances of matching. I had two of these.

 

[Cuts]

Jim, Voxel, and Whisker Barrel... thanks a lot... one more question: So, do I apply for both the PGY-1 transitional year AND the PGY-2 Rads program the same year, or do I wait for the next Match to apply for the PGY-2 position? In my case, since I'm a 3rd year now... I apply for a PGY-1 transition year this fall (to start in July 2003), and then apply for PGY-2 Rads positions in the fall of 2003 (to start in July 2004)? Is that right?

 

[Voxel]

You apply for both the PGY-1 and PGY-2 year during the SAME year.

PGY-1=Prelim/transitional year
PGY-2=Radiology programs

Some radiology programs are PGY-1 and PGY-2 combined programs.

 

[Jim Picotte]

Yes you apply for both this fall. I would also suggest to get your ERAS application in EARLY. I waited till almost the end of October and didn't get a few interviews because they invited a bunch of candidates already. So don't apply late, I'd try to get everything completed by early September.

So this fall you'll be applying for these programs
1. Radiology programs that include all 5 years and start in July 2003
2. Radiology programs that don't include the transitional year (majority) that start in July 2004.
3. Transitional, prelim med or prelim surgery programs that start in July 2003.

It's a pain to be applying for 2 different specialties in essence but a typical radiology applicant usually won't have a problem getting a transitional year spot and I only interviewed at 6 of these (nearly all near the city of the PGY-2 radiology programs so I don't have to move after 1 year).

Good luck.

 

[Cuts]

Voxel, Jim... thanks again... this is great info. I apologize for my ignorance, but I'm still unclear on one thing: If I go for a PGY-2 Rads spot and a PGY-1 transitional year spot, will I have two seperate Rank-Order Lists? How does that work?

 

[Jim Picotte]

You'll have a primary list for all your radiology spots. It looks something like this: And I don't know if all the school have these transitional year and prelim years, so this is just for illustration.

Primary List Supplemental List

1. MGH (PGY-2) A
2. Duke (PGY-2) B
3. Beaumont (PGY-1) (None needed)
4. Penn (PGY-2) C

List A
1. Transitional year in Boston
2. Prelim year in Boston

List B
1. Transitional year at Duke
2. Prelim year at Duke

List C
1. Transitional year at Penn
2. Prelim year at Penn

If you match MGH, then it'll move on to your A list to try and match you with a PGY-1 year and so on down the list. If you match at Beaumont where the PGY-1 year is included then that's it, no supplemental list is needed. You need to match in a program on your primary list in order to move on to the supplemental list meaning that if YOU DO NOT match at any program in your primary list then you won't match at a transitional or prelim year either UNLESS they are included AT THE END of your PRIMARY list.

Example:

1. MGH
2. Duke
3. Beaumont
4. Penn

13. Transitional year somewhere
14. Prelim year somewhere

On the Monday of Match week you will find out (A) You matched into both a PGY-1 year AND PGY-2 year, (B) You matched into a PGY-2 year but NOT a PGY-1 year so you need to scramble for that first year spot, (C) You matched into a PGY-1 year (the programs at the end of your rank list) but not into a PGY-2 Radiology program so you're scrambling for a Radiology program (D) You didn't match in either a PGY-1 or PGY-2 program you'll have to scramble for both.

 

[Cuts]

Eureka! Jim, I can't thank you enough... great info... I do appreciate it.