parent looking for info

[mamagina]

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I just signed up and started reading the few threads on the parent forum, and now hoping i dont get the "have your student register and seek info" as the last poster did.
Let me explain, I have a college age kid who has recently decided to change focus and go the pre med route. My aim in being here is to learn enough and understand enough that i can be supportive, but also enter into the conversations intelligently. Otherwise it is all, "you dont understand."
To begin with, S has told me that with current gpa 3.3 (first semester sophomore, one bad calculus grade which is being re taken) there is little or no hope of getting into med school. My response is take some of sciences, see how you do. I feel that the gpa can be brought up to a 3.5 or so. Also look at alternatives:
one alternative being one of the caribbean med schools that does clinicals in the US.
So is that good advice? S also has appointments with dean and premed advisors on his campus. I also suggested starting with volunteer work in hospital to see if he really likes the environment.
I certainly am supportive, and his path has always been his own choice, so basically want to know if i am on the right path as a parent.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Okay, there's a lot going on, here.

First off, hope is not lost. Your son is far from out of the game. Depending on how many credits he has under his belt and how well he does from here on out, he may want to delay application until after his senior year, but he's still in workable shape. If he can get up to a 3.5 by application time, he'll be good to go. Even hanging tough at that 3.3 can be serviceable if he has striking credentials in other areas, including a very good MCAT score. I don't recommend applying with a 3.3 if you can avoid it, but it could certainly be worse (see my profile, for instance).

Since you want some info on credentials, here are a few points of reference:

- The average med school matriculant (person who actually goes to med school, that is) has a 3.65 GPA and a 31.2 total MCAT score.
- A 30 on the MCAT is generally accepted as the rough cut-off point for "competitive applicants. Sure, you can get in with less or get denied across the board with more, but it's a decent guideline.
- Most applicants are involved in at least one research project. That does not necessarily mean they have a publication or anything concrete to show for their efforts.
- Most applicants have a few hundred hours of "clinical experience." They also come with a decent amount of volunteer time under their belts. The two often overlap.

Those are the basic tangible aspects of a med school applicant. You don't need research, but it's a smart thing to have on your resume. The rest of it is pretty essential.

Okay, on to the specifics.

Let's assume that application time rolls around, and your son is still saddled with a poor GPA. For argument's sake, let's also assume he has average extracurriculars, whatever that means, so we can discount a fluke acceptance or rejection. His options will mostly depend on his MCAT score. If it's high - say, 33+ - he should probably go ahead and apply to a very broad selection of both MD and DO schools. DO schools are typically a little easier to get into, but DO's and MD's are functionally identical. If his MCAT is any lower, he should consider retaking the MCAT and retaking a class or two that he got a C- or worse in.

If his GPA is really low, but his MCAT is fine/high, he might consider a "special master's program (SMP) to bolster his credentials. That is a last resort kind of move that can totally sink your chances if you do poorly in it, but sometimes there isn't another way out. You can read more about SMP's in the Post-Bacc forum.

I would never suggest going to the Caribbean. They are for-profit schools and do not particularly care if you fail out. They also have horrendous match lists, for the most part, and many grads fail to get residencies in the U.S. at all. That's the short of it, but there's plenty of more detailed info around if you search for it.

Your son should get on top of his game as soon as possible so that he doesn't have to even worry about his GPA. Believe me, applying with a low GPA is not fun at all. He should also start volunteering and doing research and all that fun stuff now. As I mentioned before, he should probably retake any classes he has in which he earned a C- or worse. C's are sufficient to earn credit for the med school pre-reqs, and retaking a C doesn't really boost your GPA enough to be worthwhile. (For the record, DO schools calculate GPA using only the grade for the most recent course taken when the same course has been taken multiple times while MD schools will average the two grades.)

As far as the "you don't understand" battle goes, he's actually right. The best thing for you to do is continue to be supportive and give him good information. Be sympathetic when he needs it. Don't try to relate to what he's going through because chances are pretty good you aren't going to be able to unless you've done the pre-med thing yourself. That advice goes quadruple for when he's in med school. Just be a shoulder to cry on.

Also, you should definitely encourage him to join up. If you have a decent BS detector, SDN is the best pre-med resource available, hands down. No adviser or dean is going to even come close to competing with the breadth and detail of information available here. You should read all of the pinned threads at the top of each of the pre-med forums to get a better idea what the application process involves. There will be a lot of information that is useless to you such as study strategies and whatnot, but insight into what's going on is never bad.

I guess the TL;DR version of that is tell your son to get better grades, volunteer and join SDN.

I'm moving this to the pre-med forums since your son is in college.

 

[futureboy]

I am not as down on the Caribbean schools as the others. They are a viable option ONLY IF one can't get admitted into a US MD/DO school. However, this is a route filled with risks for the unwary. For example, not all the Caribbean schools are created equal. Four of the Caribbean schools (the "Big 4"--St. George's, American University of the Caribbean, Ross, and Saba) are generally regarded as being roughly equivalent to US schools, and their graduates can get licensed in all 50 states. The other schools vary in quality and reputation.

If you want more info on Caribbean schools, check out the SDN international/Caribbean schools forum, or www.valuemd.com.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Tell him to try the sciences..I also wasn't good in calculus, got a C in calc 1 & 2. Ruined my gpa the first year of college. After the first year it has been nothing but 4.0s, aced all the science prereqs med school requires. He needs to be focus and determined, that's all it takes 🙂

 

[Janieve]

It warms my heart to see posts like this. My parents have only just started to accept that I'm serious about becoming a doctor!

Your son sounds very intelligent, and everyone else here seems to be giving you the hard facts you need. Now, as a student who had to go through her first two years without support from my parents, I think I might be the person to give you advice on the other part of it: helping him get there.

I always wanted my parents to make casual comments about my future, for instance. My brother is thinking about law school, and my parents sometimes remark on 'when you're a lawyer' type things. I've wished for a long time they would start a statement with the words 'when you're a doctor'. They're getting closer (the closest they're coming is 'when you graduate'), and I just want to hear that casual confirmation that they believe I can do it.

Another thing I wanted from my parents was bragging. They brag that I'm overseas and such things, but I want to hear them brag about other things, if they're going to brag at all. I want to hear, "my daughter is thinking about med school, and knowing her, she'll make it". I want to get embarrassed when they talk about what good grades I'm getting (when I do get them), and I want them to tell people that they're proud of my decisions.

Mostly, though, I want them to listen when I tell them I'm feeling stressed. Premed coursework is hard - it has to be, if medical schools are going to turn out good doctors. Too often, my parents (like my brother, both are English majors) just give me poetic advice. But when I'm stressed out, I want to talk. I need an outlet. I want my parents to be that outlet, like they were when I was little and threw tantrums. I just want them to ask me to tell them all about it.

I think it's great that you're so supportive of your son. He's very lucky to have a parent like that. Just make sure he knows you think he can do it, that you're proud of him, and that you're always available if he needs to talk/relax/have a care package of Dr. Seuss books sent his way. I think doing that is probably much more important than making sure he's at every marker along the way - for a smart kid like him, I don't think you need to.

Good luck to you and your son! 🙂

 

[bravofleet4]

I'm hesistant to say anything only because apply to medical school is a choice you have to make on your own without parents interfering. Even if a kid says he wants to go to medical school, that's no measure of his real interest or desire to commit. If he fails to get the grades or MCAT scores, then it might make matters worst if he feels that he's let you down as well. There's enough pressure on pre-meds to succeed. I think parents can be most supportive by just listening, not so much talking. Your child probably has people that they readily have access to if they want advice on applying to medical school.

Instead talk to him about his fears and his wants. Help him relieve any doubt he might have about himself. Offer practical advice to obstacles he finds along the way. Most importantly, just tell him that you want him to call you all the time, so you know what's up and that you want him to be happy. That would probably help both of you.

It's what my mom did for me and when the interviewer asked me who was the most influential person in my life I said my mom.

 

[JJMrK]

Bacchus and Milk have given you some excellent advice. The only thing I would add is that if your son is not already volunteering in a clinical setting he should definitely start. The earlier (and the more hours accumulated) the better.

I'd also echo the advice about staying away from off-shore schools if at all possible.

 

[Longshanks]

I just signed up and started reading the few threads on the parent forum, and now hoping i dont get the "have your student register and seek info" as the last poster did.
Let me explain, I have a college age kid who has recently decided to change focus and go the pre med route. My aim in being here is to learn enough and understand enough that i can be supportive, but also enter into the conversations intelligently. Otherwise it is all, "you dont understand."
To begin with, S has told me that with current gpa 3.3 (first semester sophomore, one bad calculus grade which is being re taken) there is little or no hope of getting into med school. My response is take some of sciences, see how you do. I feel that the gpa can be brought up to a 3.5 or so. Also look at alternatives:
one alternative being one of the caribbean med schools that does clinicals in the US.
So is that good advice? S also has appointments with dean and premed advisors on his campus. I also suggested starting with volunteer work in hospital to see if he really likes the environment.
I certainly am supportive, and his path has always been his own choice, so basically want to know if i am on the right path as a parent.

Hope really isn't lost at all. I came out of freshman year with a 2.7 and worked myself back up to a 3.4 and applying this upcoming cycle, although I've also done work in a master's program. If your son/daughter doesn't bring it back up to a 3.5 or so a Special Masters Program (SMP) or post-bacc (or even a fifth year of undergrad) may be beneficial to giving more time to improve the GPA if he/she is interested in medicine and has been involved either through employment or volunteer work.

Remember, the average applicant is a 3.5 and 27 MCAT (though the average marticulant has been approaching 3.65 and a 31). If he/she works extremely hard the rest of the way, working up to a 3.5, and scores 30+ on the MCAT he/she will be in a competitive position for application. But your son/daughter must be involved in extracurriculars, especially one that they enjoy and can excel in, possibly taking a leadership position. It doesn't have to be medically related, something positive and a way to also meet people and enjoy life outside of studying. But some form of clinical experience, either volunteer or working, is important.

 

[JTruj]

The previous year's matriculation median was a GPA of roughly 3.65-3.7 and about 32 on the MCAT. These numbers are from memory so they might be a bit high/low. Realistically, your son's GPA is too low for a lot of the allopathic (MD) schools in the country. Bringing his GPA up is needed. Realistically, to apply to MD schools he should at least, in my opinion have a 3.6. This will be hard to achieve by the time he applies. However, with a high MCAT score (34+) I would wager he could get into some schools that have lower averages.

A lot of factors play into admission: GPA/MCAT (highest on the list), volunteer experiences, leadership, extracurriculars, etc. If he wants to go into medicine he needs to raise his GPA. He can continue taking classes after he achieves his degree to do this. These post-baccalaureate programs can be formal or informal and serve as a good way to raise the GPA. However, this does not guarantee admission into a medical program.

Another alternative is for your son to pursue a degree in osteopathic medicine (DO). DOs are equivalent to MD physicians throughout the United States. The schools have lower admission standards, I'd like to say approximately a 25 on the MCAT and GPA of 3.5 due to a lot more non-traditional applicants. Overall, its a great alternative if he cannot get into or does not have the criteria for an MD school. He should shadow an osteopathic physician to make sure its a pathway he wants.

Your son should not go to the Caribbean under any circumstances. There are a few reputable schools in the Caribbean, but if your son can stay onshore then he should.

You may have not heard of DOs so you should look at the osteopathic FAQ in the pre-osteopathic forum or go to www.osteopathic.org.


Steps you should take (or I recommend)
1) Talk to him about realistic goals. His goals are not destroyed yet.
2) Help him realize the importance of his GPA. A 3.3 is a great GPA (B+ on most scales), but medicine requires more. Its the nature of the beast.
3) Do some research on the osteopathic profession and introduce this alternative to him. He should shadow an osteopathic physician if that is the route he wants to take.
4) See where his grades are after his first semester of his junior year. It will be hard to bring the GPA up. [Getting all A-'s this semester through the first junior semester should put him around a 3.45. A's would put him at a 3.58.]*
5) Do not pressure him. It's probably the worst thing you can do.
6) Have him join SDN and read the forums.

*I recommend not giving him this information in brackets. He can figure this out on his own and probably has already. Looking at each class as a numerical value introduces a lot of unneeded stress.

Yeah, I'm not sure that I can agree with you here Bacchus.

Med Schools rarely just look at your GPA and MCAT score in isolation, if they did I never would have gotten in. My cummulative GPA was about a 3.25 and MCAT 31... That being said I had some really good things going for me, my math and science GPA (which is weighed separately) was about a 3.8, I trended upward (sophomore year I got 2.4 and 2.3 then 3.3, 3.8, 3.6, 4.0), then I went to a post bac program that was highly regarded, and I had TONS of clinical experience, some decent letters of rec, and some kick @$$ essays... my point is that it isn't just about grades and MCATs, of course the higher the #'s are the better but there are other ways to make yourself competitive, i.e. a unique and more interesting candidate. The first step is to start an upward trend academically, and volunteer/work in the medical field

 

[slowbutsteady]

I am impressed (for once) by the thoughtful comments on this thread. Most of the advice is very good. Particularly the idea of taking the process slowly. No need to be in a hurry with this. It is not a sprint.

He should build a solid application and not apply until he is ready.

He should def try to get his GPA to a 3.5 and post bac courses is the way to do it. He can take some of the prereqs that way, but he needs As.

He should also take his time building his record in other ways. I spent 3 years after college taking post bacc courses, working for 2 years at NIH and working in a hospital in South Asia. By the time I applied, I had had many very valuable experiences.

33s MCAT.

I was only able to get my GPA up to a 3.5, but the rest of my app was very strong and I ended up with 6 MD acceptances, including 3 top 25.

Good for you for helping him out with all of this. It is an overwhelming process and we all need as much support as we can get.

 

[7starmantis]

Only thing I really disagree with is all the advice about "MCAT less than 33 he should look at DO" etc. First, DO is not a catchall for people who couldn't get into an MD program, although I only really have experience with TCOM and so I understand that warps my views of DO schools.

If you read SDN you will think you need a 33 MCAT or better but its simply not the case. You get a 30 or above and you in a good spot. You get less and your still (depending on the rest of your app) very competitive. I have two acceptances with a 28 MCAT. Its about the total app, not any individual one portion.

 

[slowbutsteady]

Your upward trend did it for you. This isn't indicated by the OP.

True. But it isn't indicated "yet" for the OP. He needs to make that happen. More good grades and lots of great experiences.

If he rushes to apply, he will fail.

(BTW, that is true for lots of the posters on this forum. As you see from my name, rushing is a mistake, IMHO. Slow but steady wins the race every time.)

 

[Daedra22]

I just signed up and started reading the few threads on the parent forum, and now hoping i dont get the "have your student register and seek info" as the last poster did.
Let me explain, I have a college age kid who has recently decided to change focus and go the pre med route. My aim in being here is to learn enough and understand enough that i can be supportive, but also enter into the conversations intelligently. Otherwise it is all, "you dont understand."
To begin with, S has told me that with current gpa 3.3 (first semester sophomore, one bad calculus grade which is being re taken) there is little or no hope of getting into med school. My response is take some of sciences, see how you do. I feel that the gpa can be brought up to a 3.5 or so. Also look at alternatives:
one alternative being one of the caribbean med schools that does clinicals in the US.
So is that good advice? S also has appointments with dean and premed advisors on his campus. I also suggested starting with volunteer work in hospital to see if he really likes the environment.
I certainly am supportive, and his path has always been his own choice, so basically want to know if i am on the right path as a parent.

Volunteer work is great! If he finds that he is really committed, but for any reason can't bring up his GPA, Osteopathic schools are always an option, as has been mentioned above. If he ends up with a slightly-below-average GPA and a pretty average MCAT, he should apply to many schools, including osteopathic ones.

Your support in his effort is very important. When I went through this process I had no support from my parents, and it made the process very difficult. Only my closest friends were there cheering me on, and having someone to pick you up when you feel like you'll never achieve your goal is very important.

He will need to apply to med school during the end of his junior year if he wants to go straight from undergrad to med school. A warning to you: this is very costly. The MCAT is $200+, and filling out AMCAS can be extremely expensive. I was limited in the number of schools I could apply to because of my financial situation/lack of support; if you can help him with the costs at all, it would be excellent. Best of luck!

 

[Alwaysbehopeful]

Honestly there is no magical formula for how to get into medical school. Some of the people here suggest 3.6 and 30+ MCAT which is not going to work for everyone. It really depends on what state you live in too!! Some state medical schools have a lot lower requirements.

For instances, I have a 3.5 undergraduate GPA, 3.3 science GPA, 29 MCAT and by all these standards I shouldn't even bother to apply. However, I have worked through college, have stellar volunteering/employment experiences, awesome Letters of recommendations, and many things on my application that involve leadership. So far I have 2 interviews and I even applied later. I read somewhere that someone said if you don't get your secondaries in by August you can't get in. That is stupid becuase I know at least 5 people who applied later and ended up all at great schools.

Another good way to go is doing a POST BAC. That way he can raise his GPA with some easier classes as pre-med classes tend to be really difficult. Get his foot into volunteering and some research to see if it's really for him. Then do a post bac program where he does all his science classes at one. There are lots of pros for this:

1. People tend to be more mature after college and have developed better study habits so they have a better chance at doing well in those pre-med classes.

2. Taking all the pre-reqs in 2 years is great for MCATs because it's fresh. I took General Chem 4 years before I took my MCAT and basically didn't remember much.

3. If his undergrad GPA isn't super stellar he has a chance to get a great GPA in his post bac program

4. Some Post Bac programs have ties with medical schools and accept a lot of the students into the medical school

But here is kind of a general list of things he should have!

Clincal volunteering/shadowing

Non-clinical volunteering (my friend called up a lot of schools after not getting in last year and a lot of them told him he should have other volunteering experiences that are not medically related. this shows them that you care about your community and are not volunteering just to get into medical shcool)

Research (doesn't have to be super awesome but just get some under his belt)

Leadership/Teaching experience (I started 2 volunteering programs on my own at a local hospital. Take the iniative to get involved and there are many opp for him!)

Employment (any is better than none! Medically related employment is even better (CNA, MA, EMT, etc.)

Hobbies/having a life! (they don't want bookworms! encourage him to pursue something he likes: a sport, musical instrument, poetry, cooking, anything for fun!)

Anyways don't give up just because he has a 3.3. It's far from over! If he really wants it, he'll find a path towards it.

Carribeans: a lot of poeple here don't like it but there are some success stories. First of all it's not like he won't find ANY residency. It can't be in something competitive but Family Pracitce and Internal Medicine are totally doable! Make sure it's the big 4: SGU, SABA, AUC, and ROSS. This is definitely a last resort but I have 2 friends there now and 2 more going in Jan.

DO: lower stats than MD schools so a great path if his scores are on the lower side. Have him read more about it and shadow a DO to learn more about the profession.

When he applies, I suggest to apply to 15-25 MD schools, 5 DO schools, and 1 Carribean schools (usually SGU is considered the best one).

I hope that helped. A lot of people told me I'll never make it due to my lower GPA and MCAT. However the rest of the stuff on my applicant truly shows that I'm dedicated to medicine. I have to this day volunteered 2000 hours where most people volunteer ~200-400 hours. My letters are super awesome because of all the great work I have done. So it's not all about a good GPA and MCAT. Then again there is no magical formula, do as much as he can, work hard, dream big, and he'll get there!

 

[Everglide]

Keep in mind "S" will have at least another two semesters worth of credits before playing (more with summer classes), so S has plenty of time to raise (or lower) his GPA. It is far from set in stone and could easily go up or down a fair amount depending on future grades.

Also follow the above advice of getting S involved in learning more about medicine and becoming a physician.

 

[Slowpoke]

No one has said it, but I kind of wish my parents took the initiative to do something like this.

🙂

Kudos to you, and ditto to everyone else.

 

[somemom]

I think it is extremely helpful for parents to actually understand the process to be able to offer support and encouragement to their kids. Just read the old parents comment thread with the posts by SilverCholla for a laugh at silly things parents can say.

I think of SDN as more of a student poster board than parent board, but you can go to talk.collegeconfidential.com and go to the pre-med sub-forum, there are many parents there posting about their student's process.

My kid is not an online forum type of person and went to a huge state school with advice that was not tailored to her personally, but rather gave her generic info, often contradictory. I am a forum person so began reading and following the SDN application process the summer before my DD applied so that she did not make too many errors in timing.

If your student needs to raise their GPA, consider taking a Gap year after graduation allowing ones senior year grands to count.

Pre-med GCs at your university can be excellent or pathetic so it is very individual. We learned all sorts of important info on SDN and I thank the crowd here and the plethora if information posted the last two years for my DDs fall acceptance to her #1 choice despite a lower than ideal MCAT and barely high enough GPA (but that important upward trend was there)

Mainly we learned the GPA/MCAT are important, but with 40,000 applicants, it is important for the student to pursue their personal passions and to apply themselves seriously to learning what medicine is all about, volunteer, shadow, research, etc. Understand what it is they are applying for.

Good luck and feel free to join the CC forum and post with many parents, students, med students, etc.

 

[Janieve]

No one has said it, but I kind of wish my parents took the initiative to do something like this.

🙂

Kudos to you, and ditto to everyone else.

*Cough*

No one has? *cough cough cough*

Check up about twelve posts, .

Indeed. Good job, OP! And Slowpoke - thanks for joining the club. 😉

 

[mamagina]

I very much appreciate all the thoughtful advice and information. I will see if I can interest my son in this forum.

 

[Appless]

No one has said it, but I kind of wish my parents took the initiative to do something like this.

🙂

Kudos to you, and ditto to everyone else.

seriously. I remmeber when i told my mom i finally got into med school. She was like "great now its guaranteed that i can mooch off you when im old." Thanks mom for the congratulations............🙄

 

[ForrestG]

No one has said it, but I kind of wish my parents took the initiative to do something like this.

🙂

Kudos to you, and ditto to everyone else.

Hmmm. . .I don't know if I agree. At my house, my dad would ask you what you were considering majoring in, twist it around a little, and have you majoring in what he wanted and thinking it was your idea.