PA's and DO's

[rwebster23]

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Just a quick question for any of you who know.
Can a PA work for a DO? More specifically could he/she work for an OMM specialist? Would the PA be able to do OMT?
Thanks for the input!!

 

[guetzow]

The PA's scope of practice mirrors that of the supervising Physician. No protocols, "medical model". Gotta love it!

 

[JohnDO]

Can a PA work for a DO?

Yes.

More specifically could he/she work for an OMM specialist? Would the PA be able to do OMT?

Great question. Guetzow seems to suggest that they can do whatever the supervising physicians feels they are qualified to do. Perhaps emedpa can help you with this one.

 

[rpkall]

Seems like an interesting idea. I posed this question over in the osteopathic forum--I wonder if it's a topic they discuss in osteopathic school as they prepare the DOs for residency and clinical practice.

Something tells me that from a "practice of medicine" standpoint, this would be fine (as long as the PA has read the same texts as the DO and done a certain amount of training with the supervising DO to learn the craft).... But, from a financial standpoint, I'm not sure if a PA can get reimbursed for doing OMM, as the laws are currently written, whether or not they are deemed "capable" by their supervising Doc.

Maybe someone over there (or here; EMedPA?) will know the dilly-yo.

 

[guetzow]

The trickis finding a DO who considerably less ambivalent than the previous two posters. Or, you could just go with the flow, practice Ortho, and leave the therapy up to the "Therapists".

 

[JohnDO]

rpkall is an allopathic student. And I don't know how I'm being ambivalent.

 

[guetzow]

Didn't "Suggest" anything. PA's have always trained with, and mirrored the practice of their respective docs. That is what we do. If a DO doesn't want to increase his/her productivity, have more time to him/herself, and enjoy this fruitful partnership, that is their call. One way or the other. No "Suggesting".

 

[rpkall]

My ambivalence comes from a economic angle, not a patient care one. I was actually in PA school for a few semesters, and personally feel that PAs are more than capable of developing the same tactile procedural/surgical skills as a physician as well as most of the critical thinking skills necessary to practice medicine within the first 4-5 years of their first job.

But the whole point of PAs is to extend the capabilities of a physician's practice to more patients--making healthcare more accessable to the masses who need it, while not sacrificing efficiency or good quality patient care. If a DO can train a PA to do OMM with the same efficiency and reimbursement rate (or 85+% of it), I think it's a great idea. I think OMM is a fantastic modality of care in the current depersonalized system of American medicine. The fact is that it's a very difficult modality to learn--it takes a lot of book studying to gain proficiency with the anatomy, and even more clinical practice to feel the normal and abnormal resiliency/tension of the different tissues in different patients and pathologic states. Of course PAs could do it. I'm sure nurses and physical therapists develop similar tactile "intelligence" (when it comes to normal/pathologic tissue) over the years in their careers.

I'm just asking if it's economically feasible.

If medicare won't reimburse my PA for OMM, but will pay us well for every skin biopsy, I'd rather train the PA to take off horns and third nipples. That way we can all go play golf after work, and drink Guinness instead of Bud Light. And isn't that REALLY better for all concerned? 😉

 

[guetzow]

We do in house billing. The issue of can the PA "do" it vs can the PA get payed for it are different, yet, you can ask that same question of any procedure. Unless there is legislation stating the PA cannot perform, doubtful the PA cannot get reimbursement. The only way to know is call and 'ask'. Personally, I "KNOW" an NP who's done just that 🙂

 

[rpkall]

We do in house billing. The issue of can the PA "do" it vs can the PA get payed for it are different, yet, you can ask that same question of any procedure. Unless there is legislation stating the PA cannot perform, doubtful the PA cannot get reimbursement. The only way to know is call and 'ask'. Personally, I "KNOW" an NP who's done just that 🙂

Yeah, but OMM isn't like a procedure where you can take an x-ray and verify placement of a line, or listen to the lung fields and see if they're intubated properly, or stick a a needle in something and get tissue out. In all those cases, it's clear-cut, done, done, done, bill, bill, bill.

With OMM, it's more subjective--more operator dependent. That's the whole controversy with OMM in the first place--how do you separate out physiologic/anatomic effects from the "placebo effect" of a patient who really just likes being touched by their physician? That can be a very powerful thing. "Ahhh... I feel so much better since the OMM treatments started [insert: '...since you've been spending ten extra minutes with me and making me feel like I really matter and you really care']..." 😉

 

[guetzow]

You can say the same thing about Ultrasound or PT. I know a PA who went to DO school out of an IM practice(His practice sent him). Perhaps the poster should just go to DO school? Or, be a trailblazer...

 

[deleted6669]

I know pa's who do omt. I don't know if they get paid extra for it......
in theory an md/do can delegate any skill/procedure they can perform to their pa if they feel they can do it safely and to the standard of care. it must be a skill the md/do can do, however so a pediatrician can not delegate facial skin grafts to a pa unless they can do it themselves.

 

[guetzow]

Nobody listens to me 😡

 

[group_theory]

In Pennsylvania, a PA who is under direct supervision of a DO does not have any script priviledges.

http://www.aapa.org/gandp/statelaw.html

PENNSYLVANIA
Scope of practice: Medical procedures delegated by supervising physician, within normal scope of physician's practice and within the training and expertise of the PA.
Prescribing/dispensing: PAs may prescribe and dispense drugs from formulary that excludes schedules I-II and parenterals except insulin and allergy kits. PAs who prescribe controlled medications must register with the DEA. PAs supervised by osteopathic physicians may not prescribe.

 

[guetzow]

I interviewed for a nueosurgery group there once. They wanted to pay me 50K. 50K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For Neurosurgery!!!!!!!!!!!! Nuff said....

 

[deleted6669]

In Pennsylvania, a PA who is under direct supervision of a DO does not have any script priviledges.

http://www.aapa.org/gandp/statelaw.html

PENNSYLVANIA
Scope of practice: Medical procedures delegated by supervising physician, within normal scope of physician's practice and within the training and expertise of the PA.
Prescribing/dispensing: PAs may prescribe and dispense drugs from formulary that excludes schedules I-II and parenterals except insulin and allergy kits. PAs who prescribe controlled medications must register with the DEA. PAs supervised by osteopathic physicians may not prescribe.

it is a silly rule and one most docs there don't follow to the letter. when I was there I was given a presigned blank script pad every morning....so much for no prescribing as a pa.....

 

[billydoc]

Hey guys!

I was just woundering since I'm trained in various types of body work, and NP is pretty much on my plate, is it possible for an NP to do OMM? I mean with proper training and all that.

Thanks

 

[fab4fan]

<sits back and waits for the firestorm to follow>

 

[guetzow]

I know an NP who did a bit of that. Nice guy, but no longer practicing.

 

[billydoc]

I know an NP who did a bit of that. Nice guy, but no longer practicing.

No longer practicing because he did a bit of that, or just not doing NP anymore?

 

[guetzow]

He's taking Jones to more artistic aspirations.

 

[JustaPA]

Hey guys!

I was just woundering since I'm trained in various types of body work, and NP is pretty much on my plate, is it possible for an NP to do OMM? I mean with proper training and all that.

Thanks

I would think you would need to consult the law as written in your state for the NP scope of practice. My GUESS is that since it is not a nursing procedure, probably not.

 

[WestcoastMedicine]

I am not sure about the PA doing OMT, but they are licensed to work under a DO. That is a term that must be used loosely as state laws vary with their role under the DO. In some states it is equal to the PA under ane MD. In other states there is more supervision required of the PAs. For example, as stated earlier, in Pennsylvania the PA sees the pt and writes the script, they have to have the DO cosign the script. They are trying to change this, but for now that is the case. This seems like a big deal, but in some practices the supervising physician must sign their chart to my understanding, so they have to have the doc review everything anyhow. I'm not really sure how much of a burden this poses if any.

 

[zenman]

Hey guys!

I was just woundering since I'm trained in various types of body work, and NP is pretty much on my plate, is it possible for an NP to do OMM? I mean with proper training and all that.

Thanks

I'm looking at this route also since I do Asian Bodywork. I'm also looking at training in Zero Balancing which was created by a physician. I'd like to do some clinical with a DO but lacking that will just incorporate the bodywork I know into my practice. 😎

 

[billydoc]

I'm looking at this route also since I do Asian Bodywork. I'm also looking at training in Zero Balancing which was created by a physician. I'd like to do some clinical with a DO but lacking that will just incorporate the bodywork I know into my practice. 😎

Yup! ZB is great. I took elective at my acupuncture school taught by Jim McCormick, and later got certified by the org of Dr. F. Smith and his followers. I'm also certified in Tui Na. But OMM is owned by AOA. Therefore I'm not sure that I, as an NP (to be), and a L.Ac could legally call it OMM. It'd be nice, because I have some great associations with D.Os who actualy practice OMM. But even if they allowed OMM to be performed by non-D.O...could I get paid for it? I mean is it a billable procedure? I don't think it will fly. But I'll look into it.
🙂 😀