Pass/Fail, but secretly not really...?

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The main problem is that these non top 30 schools that do this aggressively and deceptively market themselves as "true P/F schools" when talking to applicants.

The reality is that they still rank their students, which for all intensive purposes is the same has having grades.

IHMO there isn't valid reason for grades during M1/M2. Yes, there is a significant difference between someone who scores 80% on most exams vs. someone who scores 95%. However, due to the variability of grading and curriculum between schools, its not possible to accurately and fairly compare applicants from 2 different schools using preclinical grades (which is the whole point of having grades/rankings for residency applications).

As long as the student passed the course and did well on step 1, that should be enough to assure understanding of the material. At the same time, if your goal is to stratify students, using standardized tests like the steps and shelf exams in addition to home rotation grades, audition rotation grades, and SLORs seems like the best option.

You're assuming the grading during that stage is for giving residency directors info on candidates, what about just ensuring basic competency in the students? I guess you could make the classes harder, but if you do true P/F at the crappy schools, going to have way more people scraping by getting 70 and 71s and a lot less understanding of material
 
I still don't see how 1 year preclinical is practical unless you're using first aid to plan lectures around and then going into greater detail. there's just too much material to cover in a year with the same depth as 2 yr programs
 
I have a habit of saying, I "could care less", when it's I "couldn't care less" as @PL198 has corrected me. It's a bad habit and hard to get rid of once you're used to it.
Oh totally. Just having some fun.
 
How can you learn things properly in that little time?
They likely won't. And they'll be as useless as Duke students apparently are on their MS-2 clerkships. Of course they get 3 whole months to Study for Step 1 anyways.
 
They likely won't. And they'll be as useless as Duke students apparently are on their MS-2 clerkships. Of course they get 3 whole months to Study for Step 1 anyways.

I would just take a month vacation at the start of that. 3 months is insane, though like I said, I bet they are teaching to the boards during the first year.
 
I would just take a month vacation at the start of that. 3 months is insane, though like I said, I bet they are teaching to the boards during the first year.
Harvard doesn't do that now in terms of "teaching to the boards". That is so anti-Harvard.
 
Harvard doesn't do that now in terms of "teaching to the boards". That is so anti-Harvard.

I don't see how you wouldn't. Like they just arbitrarily pick other smaller subsets of information to teach? No way you're going to get as much in as the 2 years so might as well make it the HY stuff. if you didn't teach to test and made it 1 yr that's the worst thing you could do for the students in terms of board scores. well neglecting the fact they have a 3 month dedicated study, but I'm not sure if that's actually beneficial or not
 
The pattern my Roomba takes around my condo is more interesting and valuable than the pre-clinical grades in the stack of applications on my desk.

I was pretty 'meh' on SLU's push for P/F the way they do it, but when I looked at their data on student 'wellness', I was pretty impressed.
I didn't know they released a paper on it! (I should know better, I know). Very impressed with their Dean of Student Affairs -- he was AOA, and still has the opinion he does regarding Pass/Fail grading when he could have easily had the opinion of "If I did it, so do you". Good for SLU. Wash U not so much.
 
Disclaimer!! This does NOT apply to my administration, but a Faculty member in grad school once told me "Deans are paid to lie".


Y'know, this is actually NOT a bad idea! Colleagues of mine from multiple schools have commiserated with me that the people who are in that range (<75) consistently fail COMLEX and/or USMLE. I wish we had this policy.

We have pass set at 70, but it's only a "marginal pass". Basically, if you consistently get less than 75 on your exams, they pull you aside and do...something. They never really said what they do, but from I've heard from MS2s and above, they'll make you delay graduation a year if your preclinical grades are consistently in the marginal pass zone and then you do a remediation year, although no one currently attending the school is doing this, so who really knows.

That was the exact reason given to us during orientation for why they graded this way. Basically, they can forgive subpar performance in a couple blocks, but I think if it happens in more than two blocks in each year, then they intervene in some way.
 
Exactly. Schools like Yale can get away with it...because they are Yale. But it's super annoying from the residency side (and forces us to rely almost entirely on the USMLE scores and reading the tea leaves in the LORS)

?

I thought everyone said that residency directors/app reviewers don't really care about preclinicals? Why would P/F be a problem?

EDIT: NM. Just saw that you were talking about clinicals.
 
They likely won't. And they'll be as useless as Duke students apparently are on their MS-2 clerkships. Of course they get 3 whole months to Study for Step 1 anyways.

Is this something you've heard about or conjecture? More details, if you haven them.
 
Fixed that for you.

lol, so are those students like equally horrible as interns or 4th years? I get the feeling that things like that are multiplicative, ie if you never learn how to do a good physical exam, it will be horrible when you're actually doing it on real patients looking for things
 
And you would be wrong.

Wrong on the less important part or on the negligible part? I recently went to a presentation by a med school dean where he used the NRMP data to show that class rank did indeed become less of a priority for those candidates that received interviews. Ranking went from being one of the top 5 factors pre-interview (since this was mostly administrative members deciding who would receive an interview for the program) to being dropped somewhere in the 10-15th range in terms of what factors the interviewers looked for in the candidates. So I'm just curious about which part of my statement you believe was incorrect and what your experience has been.

*The dean giving the presentation has been involved with 3 different residency programs and has pretty significant experience interacting with other residency directors.
 
Wrong on the less important part or on the negligible part? I recently went to a presentation by a med school dean where he used the NRMP data to show that class rank did indeed become less of a priority for those candidates that received interviews. Ranking went from being one of the top 5 factors pre-interview (since this was mostly administrative members deciding who would receive an interview for the program) to being dropped somewhere in the 10-15th range in terms of what factors the interviewers looked for in the candidates. So I'm just curious about which part of my statement you believe was incorrect and what your experience has been.

*The dean giving the presentation has been involved with 3 different residency programs and has pretty significant experience interacting with other residency directors.
Both. And the Dean of the medical school doesn't know their dingus from the hole in the ground when it comes to the match.
 
Both. And the Dean of the medical school doesn't know their dingus from the hole in the ground when it comes to the match.

So are you saying pre-clinicals don't really matter or that they matter just as much at the interview as pre-interview? Just want to clarify...

I wouldn't have put much faith in what he was saying, except he was also heavily involved in one of the nearby residency programs before he became a dean. I don't think he was the director, but he was pretty high up there. So it's not like he's clueless unless residency selection has changed that much in the past 6 years.
 
So are you saying pre-clinicals don't really matter or that they matter just as much at the interview as pre-interview? Just want to clarify...

I wouldn't have put much faith in what he was saying, except he was also heavily involved in one of the nearby residency programs before he became a dean. I don't think he was the director, but he was pretty high up there. So it's not like he's clueless unless residency selection has changed that much in the past 6 years.
Are you talking about preclinicals or overall class rank (which if you're anything but true P/F, contributes to it)?
 
I was talking about pre-clinical GPA/class rank after 2nd year. Honestly I didn't realize clinical grades/passes impacted class rank. At my school we don't have an affiliated hospital, so students do their clinicals at several different locations. From what I understand, for us the LORs from preceptors have more impact than clinical grades because we are at different locations. Then again I could be completely wrong on that one, as I'm obviously nowhere near residency yet.
 
the LOR are what determine your clinical grades + shelf.
 
I was talking about pre-clinical GPA/class rank after 2nd year. Honestly I didn't realize clinical grades/passes impacted class rank. At my school we don't have an affiliated hospital, so students do their clinicals at several different locations. From what I understand, for us the LORs from preceptors have more impact than clinical grades because we are at different locations. Then again I could be completely wrong on that one, as I'm obviously nowhere near residency yet.
You mean evaluation comments, right? Um, yeah, you overall rank is determined by preclinical and clinical grades, with clinical making up a majority of your class rank.
 
Hmmm, I'm not sure how our clinical grades can be compared within our class considering there are about 30 different core hospitals for clinical rotations. Sounds like I'm going to have to arrange for a meeting to find some answers.
 
Hmmm, I'm not sure how our clinical grades can be compared within our class considering there are about 30 different core hospitals for clinical rotations. Sounds like I'm going to have to arrange for a meeting to find some answers.

tough
you might get an attending that hands out honors like candy or you might get one who thinks that the only way students can get honors is if they're at the level of an intern
 
Hmmm, I'm not sure how our clinical grades can be compared within our class considering there are about 30 different core hospitals for clinical rotations. Sounds like I'm going to have to arrange for a meeting to find some answers.

you get a grade. then, that grade is compared to the grade another student receives. boom rank modified. it doesn't have to be perfectly fair. yeah it's not ideal but there's no better way to do it.
 
My school sort of kept us in the dark about how we were evaluated/ranked until we had a presentation on it a couple weeks ago. Our preclinical grades play a role for AOA, but apparently a relatively minor one, and they don't factor into the Dean's Letter. My school doesn't have junior AOA. The largest influence on rank by far is 3rd year/early 4th year grades, with Step 1 score playing some role as well.

I don't remember them saying this. In fact, the handbook says otherwise.

"Determination of students in the upper quartile will be based on a combination of clinical grades and Step one Board scores; grades from the first 2 years will not be used."

Not like it's super important...I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.
 
Hmmm, I'm not sure how our clinical grades can be compared within our class considering there are about 30 different core hospitals for clinical rotations. Sounds like I'm going to have to arrange for a meeting to find some answers.
Yes, tell us how that meeting goes. :roflcopter::roflcopter:
Life's not fair. At the end, in terms of ranking, all that matters is the grade: H, HP, P, F.
 
I don't remember them saying this. In fact, the handbook says otherwise.

"Determination of students in the upper quartile will be based on a combination of clinical grades and Step one Board scores; grades from the first 2 years will not be used."

Not like it's super important...I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.
Bc your school is "true" Pass/Fail.
 
tough
you might get an attending that hands out honors like candy or you might get one who thinks that the only way students can get honors is if they're at the level of an intern
^^THIS.
 
I don't remember them saying this. In fact, the handbook says otherwise.

"Determination of students in the upper quartile will be based on a combination of clinical grades and Step one Board scores; grades from the first 2 years will not be used."

Not like it's super important...I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.

I thought that he had said preclinicals do contribute to AOA (for what reason, I don't know), although a relatively minor one. I know they don't contribute to class rank, though there are some people in our class who still think they do. Not that it makes any real difference.

I felt like that whole presentation could be boiled down to "Want to go into derm? LOL good luck.", followed by everyone glancing over at the one person who has expressed their desire to go into derm.
 
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I thought that he had said preclinicals do contribute to AOA (for what reason, I don't know), although a relatively minor one. I know they don't contribute to class rank, though there are some people in our class who still think they do. Not that it makes any real difference.

I felt like that whole presentation could be boiled down to "Want to go into derm? LOL good luck.", followed by everyone glancing over at the one person who has expressed their desire to go into derm.
AOA is an award. It is in no way necessarily "fair". Class rank on the other hand has to objective in terms of calculation. So if you do indeed go to a "true" pass/fail school, then it won't go into the class rank calculation.

Any wonder people shut up or just blatantly lie bout their specialty intentions when asked. Definitely not surprised at your school specifically in terms of specialty sneering.
 
Yes, tell us how that meeting goes. :roflcopter::roflcopter:
Life's not fair. At the end, in terms of ranking, all that matters is the grade: H, HP, P, F.

Actually looked it up last night, so no meeting necessary. It also looks more fair than I expected. We weren't told we had Honors and High Honors, so basically fail, C, B, A just like normal grading. They also have a consistent rubric that all the preceptors have to use, so it is pretty standardized. Still gonna depend on how hard whoever is filling that rubric wants to be and how good the other students are/were, but at least there is some consistency with the actual grading scale.
 
Actually looked it up last night, so no meeting necessary. It also looks more fair than I expected. We weren't told we had Honors and High Honors, so basically fail, C, B, A just like normal grading. They also have a consistent rubric that all the preceptors have to use, so it is pretty standardized. Still gonna depend on how hard whoever is filling that rubric wants to be and how good the other students are/were, but at least there is some consistency with the actual grading scale.
All clerkships have a "consistent rubric" on their clinical evals. Doesn't mean jack squat.
 
Bwahahaha.
Just wait until you're employed at a hospital as an attending...
Which surprises me that millenial med students as a whole want to be salaried employed by hospital physicians and not work in private practice.
 
I like the med student kiss-*** in there who "swallowed the blue pill" (whatever that means, bc he didn't experience the curriculum, he created it with his Masters in Education he got at Vanderbilt), talking about what a great program it is, while he's sitting at a desk pretend flipping thru First Aid.
 
I don't see how you wouldn't. Like they just arbitrarily pick other smaller subsets of information to teach? No way you're going to get as much in as the 2 years so might as well make it the HY stuff. if you didn't teach to test and made it 1 yr that's the worst thing you could do for the students in terms of board scores. well neglecting the fact they have a 3 month dedicated study, but I'm not sure if that's actually beneficial or not
I can almost guarantee the professors at Harvard Medical School who run basic science courses haven't even picked up a First Aid (they'd laugh their asses off if they did). If it tells you anything, Harvard doesn't even have an AOA chapter, unlike even UPenn. Harvard makes its own rules and doesn't follow the crowd.
 
I can almost guarantee the professors at Harvard Medical School who run basic science courses haven't even picked up a First Aid (they'd laugh their asses off if they did). If it tells you anything, Harvard doesn't even have an AOA chapter, unlike even UPenn. Harvard makes its own rules and doesn't follow the crowd.

I feel like those groups that give you the image that they're above it are the ones that actually would obsess over it. It wouldn't surprise me for Harvard profs to act like FA is a joke but then memorize it and incorporate it into the lectures.
 
I feel like those groups that give you the image that they're above it are the ones that actually would obsess over it. It wouldn't surprise me for Harvard profs to act like FA is a joke but then memorize it and incorporate it into the lectures.


Their basic sciences are also P/F, so studying for Step 1 is not really a problem.
 
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I asked one of my big sibs not to long ago, "hey so I know our school is P/F, but is it true P/F? Like are they lying/do they secretly rank you first year?" He looked at me like I was crazy and said no, it is true P/F. You people make me paranoid!
 
I asked one of my big sibs not to long ago, "hey so I know our school is P/F, but is it true P/F? Like are they lying/do they secretly rank you first year?" He looked at me like I was crazy and said no, it is true P/F. You people make me paranoid!
Some medical schools are very honest about being a "true" Pass/Fail school in the first 2 years --- and actually use this term on their websites -- ex. Pritzker. Some (or many) aren't quite as honest and forthcoming. It's not a question of secretly ranking. There are schools that are Pass/Fail in the first 2 years (when it comes to your official transcript) but keep your grades internally for rank on your MSPE or for AOA purposes.
 
lol, so are those students like equally horrible as interns or 4th years? I get the feeling that things like that are multiplicative, ie if you never learn how to do a good physical exam, it will be horrible when you're actually doing it on real patients looking for things
It definitely doesn't help. It's like those med students that pretty much copy your intern note and present your plan like it's their plan. Then they hit internship and have no idea what they're doing and they have no one to copy from.
 
AOA is an award. It is in no way necessarily "fair". Class rank on the other hand has to objective in terms of calculation. So if you do indeed go to a "true" pass/fail school, then it won't go into the class rank calculation.

Any wonder people shut up or just blatantly lie bout their specialty intentions when asked. Definitely not surprised at your school specifically in terms of specialty sneering.

YouDidn'tSayTheMagicWord.gif


Dermieeee. I specifically remember us both being involved in a thread where someone was ranked lower than they should have been based off scores and grades because of "extracurriculars" and other subjective nonsense. RANK. Not AOA selection. Usually, I believe you are correct though.
 
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