Pass Fail

[IRas]

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Isn't that a lie? How do residences compare you with the rest of your class?

 

[illixir]

USMLE Step 1, Third year performance, advisor recommendations, interview, and every other source of information they have.

Even for schools that are graded or have honors, first two years preclinical grades are pretty low importance for residency. Third year grades matter more and most preclinical pass/fail schools tend to have gradations of pass then. There are a few exceptions like Yale and Cleveland Clinic; residencies just have less information for those students and have to deal with it.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Isn't that a lie? How do residences compare you with the rest of your class?

Some iterations of how it works:

1) School is "pass/fail" as in on your personal transcript it just shows up as P or F, but also keeps track of your actual numeric grade and does a class rank behind the scenes

2) School is "pass/fail" for the pre-clinical years; then adds in "honors, high pass, low pass" for the clinical years, meaning your grades are really just the same as A, B, C, F. The schools know residencies care very little about pre-clinical grades

3) School is truly "pass/fail" with no secret rankings. Very few schools do this (I think Yale?)

 

[turkeyjerky]

Even the schools with true pass-fail (ie no secret rankings) during the first two years, like yale, still have grades for clinical rotations. I think that this policy, in of itself, speaks to the importance of third year compared to the the first two.

 

[Giddyup5]

UCONN is true P/F with no internal rankings.

But like others have said we have H/P/F in clinical years.

 

[amph119]

I should probably know this since I'm starting there in about 2 months, but I believe Pritzker is a true, no secret rankings pass/fail school in years 1 and 2 (?).

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Many schools have an internal ranking system that will be mentioned in your Dean's letter. Students just aren't aware of it.

 

[19nbj58]

Many schools have an internal ranking system that will be mentioned in your Dean's letter. Students just aren't aware of it.

Yes. I have friends who go to "strictly pass/fail" schools but they definitely keep tabs in order to stratify their students into different tiers, which eventually is included in the deans letter (i.e. top quarter, top half, bottom quarter, etc). What I'd like to know is how these different schools go about 'tiering' their students--is based mostly on 3rd yr grades, or are 1st two years given equal weight? This is why Im not so quick to drink the pass/fail kool-aid.

 

[veaselhaufen]

UCLA claims to be pass fail with no ranking for all four years. Anyone know how this system works or have experience with it?

 

[ChiDO]

Every school ranks their students and will be put into your dean letter in some type of format (actual rank, quartile, ect). I highly doubt there is any school that does not have some type of internal ranking.

 

[illixir]

Actually, there are a few schools that do not keep internal rankings for the preclinical years. Case and CCLCM are two and I'm sure there are others.

Yale also does not keep any internal rankings, Yale and Cleveland Clinic do not even have tests.

 

[deleted86048]

The University of Rochester is truly pass/fail for the preclinical years. The only grades that are used for the coded rankings in deans letters are the clinical grades. The school does take note of the top 10% of students in preclinical classes for AOA, but this is not reflected on your transcript or in your deans letter.

 

[JeffLebowski]

The University of Rochester is truly pass/fail for the preclinical years. The only grades that are used for the coded rankings in deans letters are the clinical grades. The school does take note of the top 10% of students in preclinical classes for AOA, but this is not reflected on your transcript or in your deans letter.

Maybe not, but AOA certainly is.

I just think it's stupid that medical schools have these half-assed grading "innovations" like pass/fail. I respect the schools that really are Pass/Fail, strictly, and have no ranking (though I don't like it). But the schools that switched from A/B/C/F to H/HP/P/F are just utterly *****ic. What the hell was wrong with the letters? People were too sensitive to get a B? C? I don't get it. And why have all these little caveats..."oh, we're just pass/fail....except we have a ranking system that's a big secret and uses an arbitrary unknown system for ranking and you have no idea what factors go into it", or some other such nonsense. If you really want to produce a "non-competitive environment" (though frankly, I really don't think the existence of grades necessarily makes a medical school competitive), do strictly P/F with no ranking and base AOA on something other than grades. But again, personally, I think grades are fine and actually help us all in the long-run, because grades are something over which you have a LOT of control.

 

[amph119]

Can you be invited to AOA after the first two years at a "true" pass/fail school, if such a thing exists? It is the top x% of a class I thought.

I r cunfoozed.

 

[Law2Doc]

Isn't that a lie? How do residences compare you with the rest of your class?

Simple. They don't look at the first two year grades a whole heck of a lot. Your step 1, clinical evals, letters, research and performance at away rotations are what's going to make/break you. Nobody cares that you got a P in anatomy, just like 150 of your classmates. They will care if your medicine attending thinks you are the best student he's had the pleasure of working with in your third year clerkship.

Now sure, there are rankings and AOA and other things that get calculated notwithstanding that your transcript on paper reads straight Ps if you aren't at the 1-2 schools with true P/F. And sure some places have so many divisions of P/F (F, LP, P, HP, Hon) that they may has well stick with an ABCDF system. But in general, the "dirty little secret" of med school is that your basic science years aren't going to mean a whole lot to your future career goals.

 

[RunwayModel]

These are the American medical schools that seem to be strict Pass/Fail. Set the Discipline to "Required Basic Sciences", Set Select Intervals to "2 intervals" and then click Search.

http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

• Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University
• Baylor College of Medicine
• Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University
• Boston University School of Medicine
• Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
• David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
• Harvard Medical School
• Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
• Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California
• Loma Linda University School of Medicine
• Mayo Medical School
• Mercer University School of Medicine
• Morehouse School of Medicine
• Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University
• New York University School of Medicine
• Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine
• Southern Illinois University School of Medicine
• Stanford University School of Medicine
• UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School
• University of Alabama School of Medicine
• University of Arizona College of Medicine
• University of California, Davis, School of Medicine
• University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine
• University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine
• University of Connecticut School of Medicine
• University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine
• University of Kentucky College of Medicine
• University of Massachusetts Medical School
• University of Michigan Medical School
• University of Minnesota Medical School
• University of Virginia School of Medicine
• University of Washington School of Medicine
• University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health
• Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine

There is a caveat. For example, Wash U in St. Louis is technically not complete P/F as only the required basic sciences in first year are true P/F, while 2nd year is H/P/F: http://http://bulletinoftheschoolofmedicine.wustl.edu/medpa/bulletin.nsf/WV/887DE461C2B2C72D86256E6A00599EA5?OpenDocument#Grading

Another example, Boonshoft SOM at Wright State, while it is P/F, your numerical percentages in each class are later used to calculate a class rank: http://www.med.wright.edu/students/guide/grades.html

So once knowing which ones are strict Pass/Fail, you'll need to check the school website or talk to students/administration to see then if class rank or class quartile/percentile is calculated and/or what exactly factors into AOA. Very few schools, if any, are strict pass/fail AND no method of internal ranking.

 

[kumarn]

Tufts is straight p/f with no internal rankings. Honors, etc start 3rd year..

Still confused as to why kids care about preclinical grades, there is so little weight put on them. Classes before us at Tufts had honors/p/f and they were told to not even worry about getting honors. Also check the residency threads, clinical grades are clearly 10x more important...

 

[Mr hawkings]

Isn't that a lie? How do residences compare you with the rest of your class?

They are not as concerned with comparing you to the rest of YOUR class as they are with comparing you to the rest of THEIR applicants. You being in the top 10% of your class means less to them than your boards compared to the people you are interviewing with.

An elective wth them helps too. They will often rank a candidate highly just because he showed them he was clinically compent and they liked the way he fit in their system.

 

[SB100]

Tufts is straight p/f with no internal rankings. Honors, etc start 3rd year..

Still confused as to why kids care about preclinical grades, there is so little weight put on them. Classes before us at Tufts had honors/p/f and they were told to not even worry about getting honors. Also check the residency threads, clinical grades are clearly 10x more important...

I think they care just enough so that they don't need to repeat classes and studying for Step 1 isn't a chore.

By the way, is that you Neal? 😛

 

[RySerr21]

Yes. I have friends who go to "strictly pass/fail" schools but they definitely keep tabs in order to stratify their students into different tiers, which eventually is included in the deans letter (i.e. top quarter, top half, bottom quarter, etc). What I'd like to know is how these different schools go about 'tiering' their students--is based mostly on 3rd yr grades, or are 1st two years given equal weight? This is why Im not so quick to drink the pass/fail kool-aid.

UCI is P/F during the first year. Then H/P/F for 2nd and 3rd (altho it will be changing to P/F for 2nd year too). The years are weighted differently, with first being worth the LEAST in the overall "ranking." I think first year is worth like 10%, 2nd year 20%, and 3rd year 70%. Something along those lines, but probably not exact. The "rankings" arent 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. They put is in to groups....Top 10, top 30, top 90, bottom 10. So the 31st "ranked" person will get the same thing as the 89th "ranked" person. In conclusion, pre clinical grades mean very little.

 

[sunset823]

If your school has AOA, they rank, somehow. Granted, some schools don't do junior AOA and only use third year grades and USMLE 1 for senior AOA, but if your school has junior AOA, they will use your preclinical grades somehow.

At our school we are H/P/F first two years, but they do track the final numerical score for all our courses, averaged for number of credits, and divide us into quartiles. That's why, though I doubt I'm even in the top half of this point, I'm trying not to fall into the trap of 'I only need a 40% on the final in these classes to 'pass' this semester' because I want to be somewhat over pass level in all my classes (shooting for at least 10% over MPL in most, though for biochem I'll never get there).

I think another thread discussed this, but DO NOT come to med school thinking you're only going to do the amount of work needed to pass. Even if you don't care about class rank, that philosophy will shoot you in the foot, fast.

 

[Pianoman32]

Maybe not, but AOA certainly is.

I just think it's stupid that medical schools have these half-assed grading "innovations" like pass/fail. I respect the schools that really are Pass/Fail, strictly, and have no ranking (though I don't like it). But the schools that switched from A/B/C/F to H/HP/P/F are just utterly *****ic. What the hell was wrong with the letters? People were too sensitive to get a B? C? I don't get it. And why have all these little caveats..."oh, we're just pass/fail....except we have a ranking system that's a big secret and uses an arbitrary unknown system for ranking and you have no idea what factors go into it", or some other such nonsense. If you really want to produce a "non-competitive environment" (though frankly, I really don't think the existence of grades necessarily makes a medical school competitive), do strictly P/F with no ranking and base AOA on something other than grades. But again, personally, I think grades are fine and actually help us all in the long-run, because grades are something over which you have a LOT of control.

I think they switched to the H/HP/P/F ranking because grades are curved down most of the time in medical school. In undergrad, classes were never once curved down (meaning if you got an 81% in a class, you probably were never at risk of getting a C). Most of the time in undergrad, classes were curved up. I.E...the class average was a 63 for a physics exam so the grade was curved up to make it a 75 average.

In medical school, the averages for a lot of tests probably averages in the upper 80's and for some tests, even in the 90's. Because of the fact that a "C" implies that students performed in the "70" range for medical school, a different method of grading was needed.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I think my school is really weird. We are P/F first year and this year doesnt count anything towards AOA. Second year we add in HPF, Third and fourth year is H, HP, P, F.... In our deans letter they dont rank us at all, the only kind of internal ranking system for us that they have is for determining the top 15% for AOA.

They would say..so and so got passes in XYZ, Honors in AB, and had to remediate C.

 

[DoctorDeMan]

Mayo is P/F with no internal ranking the first two years. Our dean's letter says "Doctor DeMan passed all of his classes during the first two years."

No ranking and no AOA. It's nice.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Mayo is P/F with no internal ranking the first two years. Our dean's letter says "Doctor DeMan passed all of his classes during the first two years."

No ranking and no AOA. It's nice.

Let us know how you feel when it comes time to apply for residency.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

Yes. I have friends who go to "strictly pass/fail" schools but they definitely keep tabs in order to stratify their students into different tiers, which eventually is included in the deans letter (i.e. top quarter, top half, bottom quarter, etc). What I'd like to know is how these different schools go about 'tiering' their students--is based mostly on 3rd yr grades, or are 1st two years given equal weight? This is why Im not so quick to drink the pass/fail kool-aid.

The admissions office multiply your overall percentage grade to how much they think it should worth. For example, lets say you got a 78% overall in gross anatomy, 95% in behavioral, 85% in internal medicine and 76% in surgery. Now, lets just say that they weight anatomy much more than behavioral: anatomy is worth 15% of your overall preclinical while behavioral is 7% overall. Also, lets say clerkship grades are worth much more than the first two years; 75% former to 25% latter... A sample calculation would come out like this:

.25[ (78*.15) +(95 *.07)+ other preclinicals ] + .75 [ (85*.25) + (76*.25) + other rotations]

In short, pre-clinicals weight so much less compare to the clinical ones, but they do count for something. I mean you don't want to get like 10% out of 25%, lol. From what I got, I think our school does something like this to come up with their overall ranking.
In some schools where my friends go, they don't even factor in pre-clinicals.

 

[CCLCMer]

Isn't that a lie? How do residences compare you with the rest of your class?

Pretty much what this person said:

USMLE Step 1, Third year performance, advisor recommendations, interview, and every other source of information they have.

Even for schools that are graded or have honors, first two years preclinical grades are pretty low importance for residency. Third year grades matter more and most preclinical pass/fail schools tend to have gradations of pass then. There are a few exceptions like Yale and Cleveland Clinic; residencies just have less information for those students and have to deal with it.

Can you be invited to AOA after the first two years at a "true" pass/fail school, if such a thing exists? It is the top x% of a class I thought.

I r cunfoozed.

I don't know what UCLA or Yale does, but CCLCM has no AOA since we have no grades or rank.

Let us know how you feel when it comes time to apply for residency.

He's at Mayo. They do have third year grades and as far as I know, senior AOA as well.

Regardless, people at schools with no AOA or clinical grades aren't automatically doomed in the match. I do think it makes our board scores more heavily weighted since that's the only available objective number we have, but a lot of the CCLCM grads matched in competitive specialties at competitive hospitals last year. Even if you want to argue that my school is still too new to use as an example since we've only graduated one class, I don't think you can quibble with UCLA's success!

 

[ar2388]

The University of Rochester is truly pass/fail for the preclinical years. The only grades that are used for the coded rankings in deans letters are the clinical grades. The school does take note of the top 10% of students in preclinical classes for AOA, but this is not reflected on your transcript or in your deans letter.

same for NYU -- at least that's what we were told pretty insistently lol

 

[ar2388]

If your school has AOA, they rank, somehow. Granted, some schools don't do junior AOA and only use third year grades and USMLE 1 for senior AOA, but if your school has junior AOA, they will use your preclinical grades somehow.

At our school we are H/P/F first two years, but they do track the final numerical score for all our courses, averaged for number of credits, and divide us into quartiles. That's why, though I doubt I'm even in the top half of this point, I'm trying not to fall into the trap of 'I only need a 40% on the final in these classes to 'pass' this semester' because I want to be somewhat over pass level in all my classes (shooting for at least 10% over MPL in most, though for biochem I'll never get there).

I think another thread discussed this, but DO NOT come to med school thinking you're only going to do the amount of work needed to pass. Even if you don't care about class rank, that philosophy will shoot you in the foot, fast.

even if that is someone's philosophy, i think they will find that the "bare minimum" amount of work needed to pass is a f*ckload and you dont really know if you know enough to pass or not so you just study and study and study until you cant study anymore...