Dr. Bob Doe

The four yonko of medicine
Jan 9, 2014
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Hello SDN,

In the past I have worked as an EMT-basic level & more recently as a medical scribe in order to gain some clinical experience for medical school. I honestly enjoyed it and gained much insight into the healthcare world, but both experiences were short lived, as I was asked to leave both opportunities. Medical scribe for poor chart quality and EMT-B for "asking too many questions" and not being skilled enough despite having my EMT licence.

I know I messed up, I am not writing this to absolve myself of my past mistakes or ineptitude. I did honestly try and I had some good days in which my work was praised.

Are these failed clinical experiences indicative at all of my future success or lack-there-of in medical school & beyond? Also I would still very much like to put these experiences on my application is this a good idea?

Much appreciated!
 

Strudel19

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My medical scribe experience was also short-lived. They had us memorize hundreds of medical terminology terms and spill them out word-for-word on these vocab quizzes. My definitions weren't close enough to word-for-word and I was dismissed. I learned that the phrase is "close, but no cigar" and not "close, take a cigar". A lot of hospitals start their own scribe program instead of hiring an outside scribe service. This means that the programs are new and standards aren't exactly set in place and that "chart quality" is highly dependent on your trainer.

It worked out fine. Experience with EPIC opened doors for future (and better) clinical opportunities. Clinical research has been far better than scribing ever was.
 
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Goro

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It doesn't look good.

Try your local hospice or clinic.

If you have trouble with these, then it's time for a different career.



Hello SDN,

In the past I have worked as an EMT-basic level & more recently as a medical scribe in order to gain some clinical experience for medical school. I honestly enjoyed it and gained much insight into the healthcare world, but both experiences were short lived, as I was asked to leave both opportunities. Medical scribe for poor chart quality and EMT-B for "asking too many questions" and not being skilled enough despite having my EMT licence.

I know I messed up, I am not writing this to absolve myself of my past mistakes or ineptitude. I did honestly try and I had some good days in which my work was praised.

Are these failed clinical experiences indicative at all of my future success or lack-there-of in medical school & beyond? Also I would still very much like to put these experiences on my application is this a good idea?

Much appreciated!
 

LizzyM

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You want to put these on your application but then you are opening yourself up to: 1) questions as to why you don't have a LOR from a preceptor or supervisor and 2) why you left the job after a relatively short time. If you don't want to raise these questions in the mind of the adcoms, don't put the experiences on your application. Once the question is raised, you might be asked at an interview or you might be dismissed without an interview as someone with a "red flag".
 

Chelsea FC

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You want to put these on your application but then you are opening yourself up to: 1) questions as to why you don't have a LOR from a preceptor or supervisor and 2) why you left the job after a relatively short time. If you don't want to raise these questions in the mind of the adcoms, don't put the experiences on your application. Once the question is raised, you might be asked at an interview or you might be dismissed without an interview as someone with a "red flag".
Should you have a LOR from his coordinator ???I thought most people said these wouldn't be as valuable because they wont know you as well as say a professor whom you know for 4 years , so it would be totally okay not having a LOR from anyone of his clinical experience
 

Dr. Bob Doe

The four yonko of medicine
Jan 9, 2014
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It doesn't look good.

Try your local hospice or clinic.

If you have trouble with these, then it's time for a different career.
Do you think that my performance as an EMT-B or Medical Scribe will correlate at all to my performance during rotations or residency? If a med school does accept me and train me properly, provided i work hard won't I be ok?
 

Goro

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I'm more worried that it will prevent you from getting into med school, much less affecting your clinical years. If you get in, I expect that you'll be OK. Keep in mind that many Adcom members think that EMT-B is a glorified taxi driver.


Do you think that my performance as an EMT-B or Medical Scribe will correlate at all to my performance during rotations or residency? If a med school does accept me and train me properly, provided i work hard won't I be ok?
 
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Dr. Bob Doe

The four yonko of medicine
Jan 9, 2014
153
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Pre-Medical
You want to put these on your application but then you are opening yourself up to: 1) questions as to why you don't have a LOR from a preceptor or supervisor and 2) why you left the job after a relatively short time. If you don't want to raise these questions in the mind of the adcoms, don't put the experiences on your application. Once the question is raised, you might be asked at an interview or you might be dismissed without an interview as someone with a "red flag".
I may not put the medical scribe but as for EMT-B I can state the reason for not having a LOR is because it was too long ago and most don't remember me, right?
 

Dr. Bob Doe

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I'm more worried that it will prevent you from getting into med school, much less affecting your clinical years. If you get in, I expect that you'll be OK. Keep in mind that many Adcom members think that EMT-B is a glorified taxi driver.
Oh I see. I thought EMT was a rare and desirable experience but if ADCOMS already don't think highly of it then it's not worth putting my application in jeopardy.
 

Goro

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Based upon the people I have interviewed, it is neither rare, nor desirable or undesirable. Many people seem to get the training because they think it looks good on the CV.

Honest-to-god paramedics are more impressive, and these are rarer as candidates.


Oh I see. I thought EMT was a rare and desirable experience but if ADCOMS already don't think highly of it then it's not worth putting my application in jeopardy.
 
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Dr. Bob Doe

The four yonko of medicine
Jan 9, 2014
153
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Pre-Medical
Based upon the people I have interviewed, it is neither rare, nor desirable or undesirable. Many people seem to get the training because they think it looks good on the CV.

Honest-to-god paramedics are more impressive, and these are rarer as candidates.
So do you think it's wise if I don't put it in my app then?
 
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Goro

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What other clinical experiences (volunteering-wise or paid) do you have?
 

LizzyM

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Should you have a LOR from his coordinator ???I thought most people said these wouldn't be as valuable because they wont know you as well as say a professor whom you know for 4 years , so it would be totally okay not having a LOR from anyone of his clinical experience
An employer in a clinical setting should have something to say that is valuable. Not so much a physician whom you've shadowed; volunteer coordinators write worthless letters.
 

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An employer in a clinical setting should have something to say that is valuable. Not so much a physician whom you've shadowed; volunteer coordinators write worthless letters.
I was not aware of this (as far as it being favorable or not) and I work as an EMT-B. I will ask my supervisor for a letter!
The facts you learn on SDN... Thanks @LizzyM :)
 

Goro

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Strudel19

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Note: I kept this short experience on my resume to open other doors. I was knocking on wood hoping that a potential employer wouldn't call the other place because what is there to lose? It worked out.

I did not put it on my med school app for the reasons listed above. It really is a red flag, as it should be.
 
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I'm more worried that it will prevent you from getting into med school, much less affecting your clinical years. If you get in, I expect that you'll be OK. Keep in mind that many Adcom members think that EMT-B is a glorified taxi driver.
Why would this be? Sure, I could see questioning the validity of the experience if someone were just a certified rider with no real responsibility, or just using it to pad an app. But if you're actually frequently riding as the in-charge officer of your crew?
 

Goro

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I'm not making the news, just reporting it. Too many unethical people have dirtied the water in the past for the actual people doing good.


Why would this be? Sure, I could see questioning the validity of the experience if someone were just a certified rider with no real responsibility, or just using it to pad an app. But if you're actually frequently riding as the in-charge officer of your crew?
 
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I'm not making the news, just reporting it. Too many unethical people have dirtied the water in the past for the actual people doing good.
I believe that, I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you of the opinion. That's disappointing, however. I know plenty of EMT-B's and EMT-A's who've done some incredible work, and risked a lot in the process.
 
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Lawper

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I believe that, I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you of the opinion. That's disappointing, however. I know plenty of EMT-B's and EMT-A's who've done some incredible work, and risked a lot in the process.
Honest-to-god paramedics are more impressive, and these are rarer as candidates.
Most EMTs aren't honest-to-god, since too many are gaming the system.
 
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Based upon the people I have interviewed, it is neither rare, nor desirable or undesirable. Many people seem to get the training because they think it looks good on the CV.

Honest-to-god paramedics are more impressive, and these are rarer as candidates.
I've known quite a few impressive basics- mostly career basics, not volunteers. A lot of volunteer EMT-B services you'll spend most of your hours sitting around. Not so with an EMT-B from AMR or any of the other high-volume, low staff EMS services- they get worked like dogs, and deal with a lot of situations that are bordering on requiring a paramedic (or actually require a paramedic, but a basic unit picks them up and does a swap halfway) on a regular basis.
 
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Planes2Doc

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If you don't put it on your application, it never happened. Done.
 

Planes2Doc

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Do you think that my performance as an EMT-B or Medical Scribe will correlate at all to my performance during rotations or residency? If a med school does accept me and train me properly, provided i work hard won't I be ok?
Doctors aren't EMTs or scribes... Totally different stuff. Medical schools start you at the beginning, and don't expect you to have prior knowledge. It takes work but you can do it. Don't let meaningless entry-level jobs deter you from the rest of your life!!!
 

StudyLater

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You want to put these on your application but then you are opening yourself up to: 1) questions as to why you don't have a LOR from a preceptor or supervisor
This is interesting. I was under the impression most schools are only requiring prof LORs. If that is simply the requirement, why is it strange for one not to get an LOR from an EC supervisor?
 

LizzyM

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This is interesting. I was under the impression most schools are only requiring prof LORs. If that is simply the requirement, why is it strange for one not to get an LOR from an EC supervisor?
There are ECs and there are ECs. If you have been employed full-time, it is an unwritten rule that you should have a letter from your employer. The same is true if you have been in a lab, even part-time, for a year or more; there will be those adcom members who have some apprehension about an applicant with that kind of lab experience who doesn't have a LOR from the PI. A LOR from the marching band leader or chemistry club moderator: not needed.
 

Gandyy

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An employer in a clinical setting should have something to say that is valuable. Not so much a physician whom you've shadowed; volunteer coordinators write worthless letters.
What if your work supervisor is the attending physician whom you work with directly as a scribe?
 

LizzyM

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Doctors aren't EMTs or scribes... Totally different stuff. Medical schools start you at the beginning, and don't expect you to have prior knowledge. It takes work but you can do it. Don't let meaningless entry-level jobs deter you from the rest of your life!!!
True but someone fired as a
Medical scribe for poor chart quality and EMT-B for "asking too many questions" and not being skilled enough despite having my EMT licence.
does raise some questions about the OP's capacity to acquire the knowledge, skills and attitudes needed to be a good physician.
Therefore
If you don't put it on your application, it never happened. Done.
is the best advice we can give OP.
 
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LizzyM

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What if your work supervisor is the attending physician whom you work with directly as a scribe?
If you work with/for a physician, that person should have seen your work and should be able to write a good letter.
If you are only shadowing a physician and watching him work, how can you expect the doc to write a letter about YOU other than to say that you show up on time neatly dressed and know how to be unobtrusive when the doctor is busy. Do you see the difference?
 

Gandyy

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If you work with/for a physician, that person should have seen your work and should be able to write a good letter.
If you are only shadowing a physician and watching him work, how can you expect the doc to write a letter about YOU other than to say that you show up on time neatly dressed and know how to be unobtrusive when the doctor is busy. Do you see the difference?
Right I completely agree. You answered my question. I work as a scribe for/with a physician and he actually offered to write me a letter before I got a chance to ask him for one.
 
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Dr. Bob Doe

The four yonko of medicine
Jan 9, 2014
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How many hrs as EMT and scribe combined?
EMT = about 1 year (started the course in fall did my rotations in the winter. Volunteered at ambulance corps for spring and summer months)
Medical scribe was literally 3 weeks + a few weeks of training
 

Goro

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I recommend trying local clinics and even better, hospice or nursing homes.


EMT = about 1 year (started the course in fall did my rotations in the winter. Volunteered at ambulance corps for spring and summer months)
Medical scribe was literally 3 weeks + a few weeks of training
 

LizzyM

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As a volunteer? Will that look better than finding and sticking with another scribe position?
You need clinical experience beyond shadowing. If you don't have a truck load of non-clinical volunteerism on your resume, you need some volunteerism, too. A volunteer gig at a nursing home, hospice, clinic or hospital can kill two birds with one stone.

A job as a scribe would be fine if you can do it well enough to keep your job for a year or more (or until you matriculate at med school, whichever happens first), if you already have the volunteerism thing covered with other activities. If you are going to wash out again for poor performance then you'll have another gap on your application which is not so good (you'll have a gap because you'd be crazy to list a job in the experience section if you were fired from that job for poor performance.)
 
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Hospitalized

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Doctors aren't EMTs or scribes... Totally different stuff. Medical schools start you at the beginning, and don't expect you to have prior knowledge. It takes work but you can do it. Don't let meaningless entry-level jobs deter you from the rest of your life!!!
Doctors are absolutely required to scribe for themselves? It's not the same as scribing for a physician, but if you can't do it for a doctor, how can you be expected to do it yourself? Scribing is not strictly speaking, entry-level; it requires (at least my program) a certain amount of college, high grades, and medical terminology/and or experience.
 

Gandyy

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Doctors are absolutely required to scribe for themselves? It's not the same as scribing for a physician, but if you can't do it for a doctor, how can you be expected to do it yourself? Scribing is not strictly speaking, entry-level; it requires (at least my program) a certain amount of college, high grades, and medical terminology/and or experience.
Same thing with my scribe program.
 

Dr. Bob Doe

The four yonko of medicine
Jan 9, 2014
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Doctors are absolutely required to scribe for themselves? It's not the same as scribing for a physician, but if you can't do it for a doctor, how can you be expected to do it yourself? Scribing is not strictly speaking, entry-level; it requires (at least my program) a certain amount of college, high grades, and medical terminology/and or experience.
What program?
 

Planes2Doc

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Doctors are absolutely required to scribe for themselves? It's not the same as scribing for a physician, but if you can't do it for a doctor, how can you be expected to do it yourself? Scribing is not strictly speaking, entry-level; it requires (at least my program) a certain amount of college, high grades, and medical terminology/and or experience.
I never had any significant clinical experience before medical school. The first thing we learned about was taking patient histories in our clinical medicine course. Only now, as a third year, have I learned aout charting. When I started, I was making mistakes and felt pike an idiot. Residents, preceptors, and other medical staff are well aware of the fact that we're learning. Even now, a few months into third year, I am still learning a lot more about proper charting. It's not some overnig thing that you learn quickly.

I don't know what scribe training is like or what the expectations are on the job. But I haven't met any medical students that got booted due to the inability to chart. Everyone learns. Some faster than others. But that's what rotations are for. Maybe scribe companies expect you to learn a whole lot of info in a week or so. Even if someone can't do that for that specific company, it shouldn't mean that they should drop any ambition of ever becoming a physician.

There is a good reason why paid clinical work is NOT required for medical school admissions.
 
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Hospitalized

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What program?
I'd tell you, but then I would have to kill you.

I never had any significant clinical experience before medical school. The first thing we learned about was taking patient histories in our clinical medicine course. Only now, as a third year, have I learned aout charting. When I started, I was making mistakes and felt pike an idiot. Residents, preceptors, and other medical staff are well aware of the fact that we're learning. Even now, a few months into third year, I am still learning a lot more about proper charting. It's not some overnig thing that you learn quickly.

I don't know what scribe training is like or what the expectations are on the job. But I haven't met any medical students that got booted due to the inability to chart. Everyone learns. Some faster than others. But that's what rotations are for. Maybe scribe companies expect you to learn a whole lot of info in a week or so. Even if someone can't do that for that specific company, it shouldn't mean that they should drop any ambition of ever becoming a physician.

There is a good reason why paid clinical work is NOT required for medical school admissions.
I absolutely agree with everything your post. I think scribing is just a simple introduction to the real deal. It should be reasonably handled by any well-typing, eager-to-learn pre-med.
 
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Noomm

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How many hrs as EMT and scribe combined?
Out of pure curiosity, is it really that hard to type out the letters "ou" in "hours", given that you're on here pretty much 24/7?
 

Dr. Bob Doe

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UPDATE: My boss is going to give me a second chance!!!! He said the reason for my unsatisfactory report was mainly "political" and that he knows that medicine is for me (not making this stuff up here lol):soexcited::clap:
 
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Mr Magpie

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UPDATE: My boss is going to give me a second chance!!!! He said the reason for my unsatisfactory report was mainly "political" and that he knows I medicine is for me (not making this stuff up here lol):soexcited::clap:
Your immense haki must have been intimidating at first, but it convinced your boss to take up your cause. Well done ;)
 
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Dr. Bob Doe

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Your immense haki must have intimidated the person who reviewed you, but it also convinced your boss to take up your cause. Well done ;)
Holy cow, your referencing that made my day more so than getting that second chance loll.
Conqueror's haki always does the trick
 
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