Pay over $350k for ortho residency?

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dentalgirly0209

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Hey! I recently got matched to a very expensive ortho program that will likely have me in debt of over $300k. I knew I only wanted to do ortho straight out of dental school since I got in and it’s the only specialty I really see myself doing because I love it. The only thing is I only got into this super expensive program. I’ll have no debt graduating dental school (thanks to scholarships and family help) so I’m wondering if the cost for residency is worth it assuming I work extremely hard right out of residency to hopefully pay it back as soon as possible, or do post match into a GPR and reapply to ortho next cycle with hopes of getting into a less expensive program.
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dentalgirly0209 said:
Hey! I recently got matched to a very expensive ortho program that will likely have me in debt of over $300k. I knew I only wanted to do ortho straight out of dental school since I got in and it’s the only specialty I really see myself doing because I love it. The only thing is I only got into this super expensive program. I’ll have no debt graduating dental school (thanks to scholarships and family help) so I’m wondering if the cost for residency is worth it assuming I work extremely hard right out of residency to hopefully pay it back as soon as possible, or do post match into a GPR and reapply to ortho next cycle with hopes of getting into a less expensive program.
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It would be one thing if you had dental school debt and were adding $350k on top of that.

Graduating $350k in total debt from dental school and residency is a pretty good place to be. If you are truly passionate about orthodontics I would go to the program you were accepted to. If you do a GPR and reapply in the hopes of getting into a cheaper program you’re pushing back the time until you start making money. You just want to get the certificate and start making money ASAP.
 
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dentalgirly0209 said:
Hey! I recently got matched to a very expensive ortho program that will likely have me in debt of over $300k. I knew I only wanted to do ortho straight out of dental school since I got in and it’s the only specialty I really see myself doing because I love it. The only thing is I only got into this super expensive program. I’ll have no debt graduating dental school (thanks to scholarships and family help) so I’m wondering if the cost for residency is worth it assuming I work extremely hard right out of residency to hopefully pay it back as soon as possible, or do post match into a GPR and reapply to ortho next cycle with hopes of getting into a less expensive program.
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If you matched there’s no do-over. The rules of the match are that if you withdraw after matching you can’t participate in the match again.
 
If that’s the case and you think you’ll have good chance at getting into a significantly cheaper program, then you just have to weigh the opportunity cost of delaying residency 1 or more years. I typically am against expensive programs but in this case it may be better financially to attend and have an extra year of practicing.
 
I would not consider applying to a residency program that does not offer a stipend. In my view, these programs benefit from having qualified doctors work for a reduced salary in exchange for specialized training. Given this arrangement, the idea of paying $300K or more to participate in such a program seems unreasonable to me.
 
DrMarioRobles said:
I would not consider applying to a residency program that does not offer a stipend. In my view, these programs benefit from having qualified doctors work for a reduced salary in exchange for specialized training. Given this arrangement, the idea of paying $300K or more to participate in such a program seems unreasonable to me.
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unforchantely, most ortho programs in the US are this way. I believe it is around 5 ortho programs in the US that actually give residents stipends.

Also OP, because you have no dental debt - I would accept the position and be happy that your tuition isn't +$500k. I will have around $400k debt from dental and I am planning on ortho as well. I'd be happy with only $300k in debt lol feels sad saying that 😆
 
The rules of the match do say that but as long as you were alerted to the cost of the program prior to rank list you’re bound to go to that program. You could have not ranked that program if cost was an issue. Also, you may not get into another ortho program. There’s a reason you matched to that program. There’s no guarantee another program would interview you in the future. GPR doesn’t make you any more competitive. Programs can see and will see that you’ve matched before and will basically black ball you because you don’t seem committed enough to ortho if you just drop after match. Plenty of applicants would kill for that spot.
 
Three fifty for school plus residency is nothing at this point. Don’t be silly and enjoy being an orthodontist seeing patients for half an hour a day in your lulu outfit
 
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You will find enough work to pay off your loans as long as you do a few things. 1) Join the 6 days a week club. That's where you work 6 days a week. Corollary to joining this club is you may have to travel 60+ minutes to find a job(s) if you live in a particularly oversaturated metro. 2) Close your eyes to the awful quality of work you may be forced to put out there. 3) Shut down your soul because you need to have no ethics at some of these places to get your paycheck.

But you will repay the loans in a few years. Like 5-ish or less.
 
gryffindor said:
You will find enough work to pay off your loans as long as you do a few things. 1) Join the 6 days a week club. That's where you work 6 days a week. Corollary to joining this club is you may have to travel 60+ minutes to find a job(s) if you live in a particularly oversaturated metro. 2) Close your eyes to the awful quality of work you may be forced to put out there. 3) Shut down your soul because you need to have no ethics at some of these places to get your paycheck.

But you will repay the loans in a few years. Like 5-ish or less.
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Ortho is different from general dentistry. Most of the places that hire you don’t know anything about ortho….and they need your expertise when they hire you. Therefore, most places let you do whatever you want. Therefore, the quality of treatments and tx results depend on your clinical skills….your ability to diagnose and tx plan…your ability to train your chairside assistants properly. If the tx results are bad or if there are unethical decisions that are made in the office, it’s mostly on you…you shouldn’t blame others.

I do agree with the suggestion to work 6 days/wk and the willingness to do a 60+ minute commute (just get a Tesla, which is not expensive anymore, and set it on autopilot) if you want to pay off debt ASAP. Working 6 days/wk as an ortho is still a lot easier than working as a GP. The more cases you treat, the more experience you will gain and the job will become much easier later on.
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
All doctors and dentists will be replaced by AI within [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]] years so yes this is insane
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How exactly can AI replace dentists?

I don’t think people would trust robots for a Tesla robot to work in their mouths
 
Yes ..Ortho is worth it. It is an amazing and rewarding career !
 
dentalgirly0209 said:
Hey! I recently got matched to a very expensive ortho program that will likely have me in debt of over $300k. I knew I only wanted to do ortho straight out of dental school since I got in and it’s the only specialty I really see myself doing because I love it. The only thing is I only got into this super expensive program. I’ll have no debt graduating dental school (thanks to scholarships and family help) so I’m wondering if the cost for residency is worth it assuming I work extremely hard right out of residency to hopefully pay it back as soon as possible, or do post match into a GPR and reapply to ortho next cycle with hopes of getting into a less expensive program.
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Watch the YouTube episode of Dave Ramsey’s call with the orthodontist with over 1 Million in student loan debt, then ask yourself is it still worth it. There are easier, less risky ways of making money.
 
PictureMeRollin said:
Watch the YouTube episode of Dave Ramsey’s call with the orthodontist with over 1 Million in student loan debt, then ask yourself is it still worth it. There are easier, less risky ways of making money.
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There is a difference between $350k of debt and $1 million. I paid off my dental school loans in a little over a year. To be an orthodontist, making good money, with a good lifestyle, with only $350k is a pretty good set up. Sure, you can make better money in other ways, but the OP shouldn’t feel bad about their situation.

OP just be smart about it. Work hard when you graduate and get it paid off. Dont just work 3 days a week and travel the world your first few years out. You’ll be fine!
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
There is a difference between $350k of debt and $1 million. I paid off my dental school loans in a little over a year. To be an orthodontist, making good money, with a good lifestyle, with only $350k is a pretty good set up. Sure, you can make better money in other ways, but the OP shouldn’t feel bad about their situation.

OP just be smart about it. Work hard when you graduate and get it paid off. Dont just work 3 days a week and travel the world your first few years out. You’ll be fine!
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100% agree, that's not bad at all.
 
JacquesVallee said:
If 350k isn't bad, then what is bad? You can still pay off that debt as an ortho but I don't think we should undermine how crazy expensive that still is.$#%)
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$350k is a large amount of debt, no one can deny that. BUT, if you have high earning potential and don't let scope creep get you too hard in the first year or two after graduation, you will pay it off fine.
 
FosterWallace said:
hes going to come out of ortho residency with less debt than most people who just graduate dental school. its not bad at all compared to most people's situations
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You're not really telling me what you're disagreeing with me on. I agree, 350k of just Ortho debt is not nearly as bad as your average dental graduate these days. However, that is an indictment of how we have become numb to how crazy debt loads in our career is. With that said, I agree OP can absolutely pay off 350k as an orthodontist and I wouldn't blame them for doing it.
 
I would love to be in your shoes. I've been working for about 6 years for the military and been stationed overseas. I have no luck with in-service ortho application and I have not had luck in the past 2 cycles of match. I would rather be in debt now than spending anymore money on flights, hotels, application fees again... But I'm a sucker for ortho so I guess the grind continues.
 
You could.... just have your oldest grandparent legally adopt you and then have them pay for your school with the Federal parent plus loan. It's no-limit and they can only garnish 15% of their social security for student loans. So just pay the 15% to your grandparent until they pass away and the loan disappears. Or if they get disabled sooner they can apply for disability loan forgiveness.
 
Greyangel6 said:
I would love to be in your shoes. I've been working for about 6 years for the military and been stationed overseas. I have no luck with in-service ortho application and I have not had luck in the past 2 cycles of match. I would rather be in debt now than spending anymore money on flights, hotels, application fees again... But I'm a sucker for ortho so I guess the grind continues.
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Same feeling. I didn’t match this cycle after spending like $10k on applications, flights, hotels, etc not to mention income lost with days off. I would happily switch places.
 
Thehighwind87 said:
I would go 500k-1 mil into the field.
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IMG_1701.jpeg


Big Hoss
 
niko472 said:
Same feeling. I didn’t match this cycle after spending like $10k on applications, flights, hotels, etc not to mention income lost with days off. I would happily switch places.
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what were your stats if u dont mind me asking?
 
dentalgirly0209 said:
Hey! I recently got matched to a very expensive ortho program that will likely have me in debt of over $300k. I knew I only wanted to do ortho straight out of dental school since I got in and it’s the only specialty I really see myself doing because I love it. The only thing is I only got into this super expensive program. I’ll have no debt graduating dental school (thanks to scholarships and family help) so I’m wondering if the cost for residency is worth it assuming I work extremely hard right out of residency to hopefully pay it back as soon as possible, or do post match into a GPR and reapply to ortho next cycle with hopes of getting into a less expensive program.
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May I ask which program it is?
 
2TH MVR said:
Everyone here is forgetting about inflation. You can hardly buy a nice home for 350K. 350K all in to be an orthodontist is a great deal.
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Ehh I'm not sure if I agree. Being a new orthodontist now is a much different situation from when you became an orthodontist. I went to a cheap ortho program and I'm still not sure if it was worth it. I often daydream about how my life would be different if I chose a different specialty, and part of me wants to leave this specialty and go become a pediatric dentist or something.
 
New_Vegas said:
Ehh I'm not sure if I agree. Being a new orthodontist now is a much different situation from when you became an orthodontist. I went to a cheap ortho program and I'm still not sure if it was worth it. I often daydream about how my life would be different if I chose a different specialty, and part of me wants to leave this specialty and go become a pediatric dentist or something.
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And the hunched over pediatric dentist seeing 60 patients a day, dealing with screaming Timmy, neck pain, and ungrateful mom and dad sits there and wishes they were an orthodontist. Find the green grass where you are.
 
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Pablo Sanchez said:
dealing with screaming Timmy and ungrateful mom and dad
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Oh trust me, we deal with those things as an orthodontist too.

However, it's much, much more difficult to get 60 patients a day as an orthodontist, and therein lies the problem.
 
New_Vegas said:
Oh trust me, we deal with those things as an orthodontist too.

However, it's much, much more difficult to get 60 patients a day as an orthodontist, and therein lies the problem.
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60 patients per day sounds nice at first, but it is a recipe for burnout.
 
New_Vegas said:
Oh trust me, we deal with those things as an orthodontist too.

However, it's much, much more difficult to get 60 patients a day as an orthodontist, and therein lies the problem.
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And this is why I routinely see from a particular new provider office lots of ethically compromised stuff, I suspect they just need the money because they’ll slap braces on anyone and then kick to us the patients with the worst cavities/pain to clean up the mess
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
60 patients per day sounds nice at first, but it is a recipe for burnout.
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I could see a hundred patients and not burn out. I would love for that. Problem is, you need to kiss a lot of ass as an orthodontist to even see 20-40 patients a day, let alone 60. And trying to build a practice requires 10x more work than simply showing up and treating patients.
 
New_Vegas said:
I could see a hundred patients and not burn out. I would love for that. Problem is, you need to kiss a lot of ass as an orthodontist to even see 20-40 patients a day, let alone 60. And trying to build a practice requires 10x more work than simply showing up and treating patients.
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I agree that the environment for practicing orthodontists has changed. And not for the better. The problem exists because there are more non-orthodontists doing orthodontic treatment. Corporate offices are everywhere. Everyone is offering aligner treatment lol. Especially in urban markets (where I work).

Pablo Sanchez said:
And the hunched over pediatric dentist seeing 60 patients a day, dealing with screaming Timmy, neck pain, and ungrateful mom and dad sits there and wishes they were an orthodontist. Find the green grass where you are.
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Exactly. I've been working Corporate for the last 9 yrs. Practiced privately for 25 years. I see 1st hand the patient management issues that the pediatric dentists, general dentists have to deal with. I have great respect for them, but I do not envy them at all. I treat mostly teenagers and young healthy adults. I CHOOSE NOT to treat young children (under the age of 11). I rarely do Phase 1 treatment. If you read the complaints/negative reviews on our office (I work in 5 different locations) ..... most if not all of the complaints revolve around the general/pediatric dentist side. Ortho procedures are so simple and quick. Much of it is delegated. Patients want what we offer.
Blueshirts said:
And this is why I routinely see from a particular new provider office lots of ethically compromised stuff, I suspect they just need the money because they’ll slap braces on anyone and then kick to us the patients with the worst cavities/pain to clean up the mess
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To be clear. I am not a fan of Corporate dentistry. But there are advantages to patient care when all the providers are under one roof. Most of our potential ortho patients are 1st seen by the general dept. Once I receive the green light that the patient is dentally healthy .... then the braces can be placed. These same patients are then seen on recall every 6 months. If I see anything that looks like caries, etc. I can just ask the dentist to take a look.

In the private practice world .... patients often seek the services of an orthodontist without needing a general dentist referral. There was a time when orthodontists and general dentists often worked together for the mutual benefit of the patient. That existed during my early years of private practice. Now. All I see is competition for patients. Cosmetic dentists wanting to do all anterior veneers/crowns to correct crooked front teeth instead of conservative ortho tx. The **** goes both directions.
 
2TH MVR said:
I agree that the environment for practicing orthodontists has changed. And not for the better. The problem exists because there are more non-orthodontists doing orthodontic treatment. Corporate offices are everywhere. Everyone is offering aligner treatment lol. Especially in urban markets (where I work).


Exactly. I've been working Corporate for the last 9 yrs. Practiced privately for 25 years. I see 1st hand the patient management issues that the pediatric dentists, general dentists have to deal with. I have great respect for them, but I do not envy them at all. I treat mostly teenagers and young healthy adults. I CHOOSE NOT to treat young children (under the age of 11). I rarely do Phase 1 treatment. If you read the complaints/negative reviews on our office (I work in 5 different locations) ..... most if not all of the complaints revolve around the general/pediatric dentist side. Ortho procedures are so simple and quick. Much of it is delegated. Patients want what we offer.

To be clear. I am not a fan of Corporate dentistry. But there are advantages to patient care when all the providers are under one roof. Most of our potential ortho patients are 1st seen by the general dept. Once I receive the green light that the patient is dentally healthy .... then the braces can be placed. These same patients are then seen on recall every 6 months. If I see anything that looks like caries, etc. I can just ask the dentist to take a look.

In the private practice world .... patients often seek the services of an orthodontist without needing a general dentist referral. There was a time when orthodontists and general dentists often worked together for the mutual benefit of the patient. That existed during my early years of private practice. Now. All I see is competition for patients. Cosmetic dentists wanting to do all anterior veneers/crowns to correct crooked front teeth instead of conservative ortho tx. The **** goes both directions.
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so do you still recommend this field? I was very interested in it and designed by CV around it, but if its financially not worth it... then im not sure.
 
kamsartipi said:
so do you still recommend this field? I was very interested in it and designed by CV around it, but if its financially not worth it... then im not sure.
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If you have to go into more debt to become and orthodontist I don't see it worth it unless it's $100k or less. If you have to pay $350k+ It absolutely wouldn't be worth it financially. Especially because you'd be looking at a 9% interest rate as well on your loans, talk about being financially trapped for life for those individuals who have $400k+ from dental and another $300k+ in debt for ortho.
 
kamsartipi said:
so do you still recommend this field? I was very interested in it and designed by CV around it, but if its financially not worth it... then im not sure.
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How much debt are you leaving dental school with and how much will going to residency cost you? I can't imagine being an ortho with little debt wouldn't be worth it if you truly enjoy ortho. It really all depends on your financial situation because just about everything in dental education is absurdly expensive.
 
kamsartipi said:
so do you still recommend this field? I was very interested in it and designed by CV around it, but if its financially not worth it... then im not sure.
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It's not worth it, or general dentistry if you have large debt. I know a young orthodontist that attended USC dental and ortho. This person owes over $800,000 for school. I know another young dentist that graduated from AT Stills in AZ who owes more than $400,000. To be a dentist.

Another perspective. I played golf with a young anesthesiologist fresh out of residency. He went to school for 12 yrs. It takes approximately 10-11 yrs to become an orthodontist (4 yrs undergrad , 4 yrs dental, 2-3 yrs residency). This fresh out of school anesthesiologist owes $300,000. Let that sink in.

It all depends on future debt. Low debt ..... if you love ortho .... then do it. High debt. Not a wise decision.
 
I’m a general dentist. I do everything except ortho of any kind, even Invisalign. I do endo, restorative, and extractions, crown/bridge, most implants, some Perio, some peds, etc. I have enough to keep my plate full. But what I love is that if a case is very hard I refer the tough stuff to a specialist. The specialist usually doesn’t get the easy cases from the GP. That’s the beauty of being a GP. It’s amazing that on SDN everyone wants to be OMFS and if you’re a GP you aren’t good enough or smart enough.
Let me tell you, I’m plenty good and plenty smart. Most of all I don’t have any loans to worry about.
 
kamsartipi said:
so do you still recommend this field? I was very interested in it and designed by CV around it, but if its financially not worth it... then im not sure.
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I don't think I would recommend ortho even for low amounts of school debt. It's so much easier to be successful in other specialties.
 
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New_Vegas said:
I don't think I would recommend ortho even for low amounts of school debt. It's so much easier to be successful in other specialties.
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Even though the Ortho job market is getting saturated, is it not worth the lifestyle of never having to pick up a hand piece again?
 
JacquesVallee said:
Even though the Ortho job market is getting saturated, is it not worth the lifestyle of never having to pick up a hand piece again?
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I use handpieces multiple times per day. Some days it feels like all I do is go from chair to chair using handpiece. Broken brackets, removing aligner attachments, removing bands/banded appliances, removing composite after braces coming off, repairing fixed retainers, etc etc. I will often also do enameloplasty to flatten out chipped incisors, or sometimes even add small amounts of composite to teeth to make a nicer looking incisal edge. All of these things require use of a handpiece. There's some misconception out there about ortho being easy on the body. My counter is this- have you ever seen an orthodontist in their late 60s or even 70s that's still practicing? Same hunched over back that all dentists get. I knew an older orthodontist who had multiple fused discs, and couldn't move his neck anymore. He had to move his whole torso.

Owning a practice is like two jobs. One job where you show up and do your work (not easy), then another job where you have to run the clinic and figure out how to get new patients in the door. This true for anyone who runs a practice. The lifestyle is great, you get to choose which 80 hours of the week you get to work!
 
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