Paying for dental school

[billiken10]

We all know that we're going to have to get loans out the rear to pay for our dental education, but does anyone know how that breaks down. I haven't talked to any banks (and I won't before getting an acceptance... why jinx it?) so I don't know how loans are handled. My undergrad loans were through the school and my parents helped me manage most of that. Obviously, the bank doesn't just give you $200,000.00 on a check. Is the money loaned based entirely on expected tuition costs? Since most of us will be living off the bank as well, how are our living expenses calculated and provided for? I'm sure someone out there has more experience with this than I do. Please educate me!

B10

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[msf41]

Hey billiken...that's a good question. I don't know the answer, but I was wondering since you are from St Louis if you are applying to UMKC? and if so what's your opinion of the school?

 

[sinned]

I believe the school has a loan program...then you start paying after you graduate.

 

[jdcinza13]

You can get Title IV Stafford Loans up to about 38K if I remember correctly, and from there you can get other personal signature loans from companies that specialize in loaning to dental/medical students. Everything is worked through the school and the Financial Aid office. They will have all kinds of options for you. I'm not in school yet, but you can have up to a maximum of 128-138K in Title IV Stafford loans at one time...once you pay it down, you can get more money. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jdcinza13]

you also take the loans out on an as needed basis instead of just one lump sum.

 

[billiken10]

That makes sense that the schools would help facilitate the loans.

As far as being from St. Louis, I'm actually from Chicago and I attended Saint Louis University. I don't really know anything about UMKC, except that they didn't accept me last year!

Billiken10

 

[DMD_hopeful]

We all know that we're going to have to get loans out the rear to pay for our dental education, but does anyone know how that breaks down. I haven't talked to any banks (and I won't before getting an acceptance... why jinx it?) so I don't know how loans are handled. My undergrad loans were through the school and my parents helped me manage most of that. Obviously, the bank doesn't just give you $200,000.00 on a check. Is the money loaned based entirely on expected tuition costs? Since most of us will be living off the bank as well, how are our living expenses calculated and provided for? I'm sure someone out there has more experience with this than I do. Please educate me!

B10

If you check out the financial aid section of most of the dental school's web sites there is usually a section on costs and budgeting. Generally, they break down the costs for every conceivable expense you might have throughout the academic year. The loan checks are dispersed to you for each semetser, minus the cost of tuition. So you pretty much get like a lump sum check that is supposed to allow you to survive from say September till January, which is when you'll get your next check.

Just another point. I currently live off of loans during my undergrad. It's not easy. They barely allow you enough money for rent and other expenses and don't even mention social expenses. I guess I am saying this because it sounds like a lot of money they are going to lend you but when you get done taking out all the expenses there isn't much to live on. We are all doomed to four years of tight living!

A quote:
"Live like a Dr. while in school and you'll live like a student when you're a Dr."

 

[billiken10]

Thats an excellent point. I've heard from friends of mine and from my parents that during dental school you should pretty much resign yourself to a life of studying and ramen noodles. Just kidding. Money will undoubtedly be tight for the time we spend in dental school. And as you point out, its that sacrifice that will be made worth its while when you have graduated with a DDS or DMD and have the means to make a career and good life.

B10

 

[boogaking]

Theres always the Armed Forces Health Professions Scholarship... where they pay your full tuition, books etc.... plus a monthly stipend... in exchange for one year of service for every year in school... from what I hear.... it's not like you're gonna be off to battle grounds... you work in Veteran Hospitals ...and you get a choice in place to work... I know there might be better options but think about it.... if you go to NYU or one of those places where tuition is a **** load and the living expenses is over the top... I think that would make it well worth it!

 

[calbear14]

Theres always the Armed Forces Health Professions Scholarship... and you get a choice in place to work...

IMO, they give you the illusion that you get a choice in where you'll be stationed when you payback the time.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Dental school is free if you know the right people no matter where you go to school...trust me

 

[Dentist 2 be]

broc, you don't pay for nyu?

 

[billiken10]

Both my parents did the Army scholarship program. It is true that they pay for EVERYTHING and provide for your living expenses quite nicely. As far as for where you are stationed, if the Army is going to pay for you to go to school for four years, they are going to send you wherever they want to. My parents spent 5 years in Germany after dental school. In fact, its a pretty safe bet that if you go through that program, that you will be going overseas to someplace like Germany or Korea. Not that its bad, I'm thinking about that myself. Hell, this country needs soldiers. Of all kinds. And, not to be pessimistic, I did read an article about a dental student in Iraq who had to perform field triage when a Marine battalion launched an attack accidentally against another US company. Basically, if you do the Army scholarship program, it is my understanding that you will be taken care of financially and then do 4-5 years of service where they want and where you would be needed. The first thing they'll tell you is that you are a soldier, and that you are a dentist second. This is from my first hand experience with my parents, and I don't know how much differently things are run now, but I wouldn't bet that they are a whole lot changed.

My $0.02!!!

B10

 

[Sprgrover]

IMO, they give you the illusion that you get a choice in where you'll be stationed when you payback the time.

That's pretty much correct. My stepfather made the mistake of raising his hand in Med school when an army recruiter came and as a result he was shuffled all over the globe (much to his chagrin).

Another option, as boogaking stated, is to go into public health service. Under this program the government will sponsor you, and in return, you give a year of service for each year they pay for your schooling. You do have a choice of where you want to go (needs based areas are both metropolitan and rural) and they will pay you a competitive wage based on the area you select.

As far as loans are concerned, it is at the school's and federal government's discretion on how much assistance you can receive. There is a cap on how much you can borrow from Stafford loans (~$180 k, and that includes undergrad too), although there are some other government sponsored loan entities such as Sallie Mae that can help pick up the tab. However, your credit report will be pulled and it is used to determine how much you will receive (if any $ at all...). Warning: the amount alotted to living expenses is around $1500 and that is based on an early 1980's assesment of a single, childless student. That amount is for every student, regardless of the number of dependants or personal circumstances. At my Case interview there was a lady from the financial aid office that went over all of this and handed out a sheet that had all kinds of govern loan contacts. She also took the liberty of listing the local welfare office. Brutal, very brutal....

 

[boogaking]

Both my parents did the Army scholarship program. It is true that they pay for EVERYTHING and provide for your living expenses quite nicely. As far as for where you are stationed, if the Army is going to pay for you to go to school for four years, they are going to send you wherever they want to. My parents spent 5 years in Germany after dental school. In fact, its a pretty safe bet that if you go through that program, that you will be going overseas to someplace like Germany or Korea. Not that its bad, I'm thinking about that myself. Hell, this country needs soldiers. Of all kinds. And, not to be pessimistic, I did read an article about a dental student in Iraq who had to perform field triage when a Marine battalion launched an attack accidentally against another US company. Basically, if you do the Army scholarship program, it is my understanding that you will be taken care of financially and then do 4-5 years of service where they want and where you would be needed. The first thing they'll tell you is that you are a soldier, and that you are a dentist second. This is from my first hand experience with my parents, and I don't know how much differently things are run now, but I wouldn't bet that they are a whole lot changed.

My $0.02!!!

B10

After talking with some recruiters... I hear that the best bet is to try and get in with the Air Force, Navy, or their respective reserves.... but if you are interested in these areas... act fast because they are cutting these programs soon... because of the shortage in the army and marines.. where you could find life a little tougher ...as a dentist...

Germany or Korea ....thats not too bad... opportunity to tune your skills... AEGD type opportunity... plus they pay for school... but damn... that would be a bummer to be force into IRAQ... I love this country but im a modern day hippie.... "make love not war!"

 

[jheidenr]

A friend of mine gave me some good advice on the whole miiltary scholarship thing. He said don't do it to save money because you end up making a lot less than a private dentist right out of dentat school. Many dentists I have talked to found themselves very unhappy in the program and resigned their commissions before finishing dental school. But others I have talked to absolutely love it. Do it if you love your country and want to serve, that should be the motivaitng factor. Otherwise you will probably find yourself unhappy.

 

[superman]

i think that there are different types of military health professions scholarships. there are 1, 2, 3, 4 year programs-- and of course the 4 year program pays 100% of ur dental school tuiton. i hear the 4 year scholarship is hard to get cuz of the competition... does anyone know how hard it is to get the 4 year scholarship? i would like to kno. thanks.

 

[eric275]

Another factor that has not been mentioned yet is that while you do owe 1 year of active duty for each year they support you, you have a total obligation of 8 years. So say for instance the military supports you for 4 years while in dental school, you would then owe 4 years active duty. But since your total obligation is 8 years, you are put on 4 years of IRR (Inactive Ready Reserve) once you leave the military. During that 4 years of IRR you can be called up or re-activated to active duty if the need arise.

Being prior service myself, the one bit of advice that I would give anyone considering these options is talk to recent scholarship participants because recruiters are known for leaving out little tid-bits of information if they think it will get you to sign up. Don't just look at the money that it will save you in D-school, but rather what impact it could have on your life say for the next 12 years, 4 years D-school + 4 years active duty + 4 years IRR. You really need to try and look at what you might want to do after you graduate from dental school + 8 years if considering a scholarship and the impact it could have on your life. Persoanlly I enjoyed my military service and think it's a great oppurtunity if after evaluating all of the facts decide that it's worth the obligation.

Just FYI the dentist my wife works for shared an experience of a local dentist that participated in an HPSP scholarship. He had completed his 4 years active duty, was married with a couple children and had recently bought a practice with a year or two left on his IRR contract. Well when Desert Storm rolled around guess what, he was recalled into the military and had to leave his newly financed practice and family. Luckily my wife's employer and several other dentists in town all pitched in to keep his practice afloat until he returned 1 year later. Otherwise it could have been a financial nightmare for him and his family.

Here is a decent site expressing some of the pro's and con's of the Army's HPSP. I encourage anyone considering the HPSP scholarship to really research it. While I think it's a good program, your the one that will ultimatley have to serve the committment.

members.tripod.com/~softballteam/dental.html

The link wasn't working, I think I fixed it but if not just copy and paste into your address window.

 

[boogaking]

Thanks Eric.... you brought up some good points to think about... I guess there's a few more things I have to think about...

 

[calbear14]

I heard that you can opt out of the IRR but that you lose your commission after your payback time is up. Also, what % of your base pay do you receive when you retire after 20 years? Is that negotiable?

 

[eric275]

i think that there are different types of military health professions scholarships. there are 1, 2, 3, 4 year programs-- and of course the 4 year program pays 100% of ur dental school tuiton. i hear the 4 year scholarship is hard to get cuz of the competition... does anyone know how hard it is to get the 4 year scholarship? i would like to kno. thanks.

From the recruiters that I have spoke with, Army and Air Force, the 4 year scholarship is available for both branches, but the Air Force seems to get fewer allocations of the 4 year scholarships so is harder to get in that branch. As I stated in my previous post just remember, even if you only accept the scholarship for 1 year, you will owe 7 years of IRR for a total of eight.

I am currently filling out the paperwork for the Army HPSP scholarship that would begin when I started school in 2005, so in essence a four year scholarship. The Air Force on the other hand informaed me that they have already selected their HPSP 4 year recipients for the 2005 school year. Anyone that is interested in applying for the Air Force HPSP program starting school in 2005 would only be elgible for the 3 year scholarship.

As for competitiveness for the scholarships, it all depands on the applicant pool that you are competing against. The Air Force is the most competitive of the 3 branches, while I believe that the Army offers the most number of scholarships.

 

[eric275]

I heard that you can opt out of the IRR but that you lose your commission after your payback time is up. Also, what % of your base pay do you receive when you retire after 20 years? Is that negotiable?

I have never heard of people opting out of a contract with the military, otherwise no one would ever be recalled and I know that it happens all of the time, especially in times of war. If you were to give-up your comission and leave you might be toying with the idea of getting less than an honorable discharge, which can mess all kinds of things up in civilian life.

You might want to post this specific question in the military forum, but be fore-warned that you might get flammed by active duty personel and current HPSP participants.

As far as retirement goes, the current policy is that you are elgible for 50% of your base pay at 20 years. Also if you didn't know, when you go into the military on active duty you are commisioned as a O-3 or Captain. You can do a search on google for pay charts that list base pay for certain ranks.

 

[KobeInnocent]

hmm im really confused why so many ppl r doing the army scholarship, because when you think about it. Dentist's avg salary is 118k a year so that means even if u go to nyu with tuition 47 k a year, when you get out of d-school you can easily pay back loans within 2 yrs. So.....why do you wanna waste 4-5 yrs serving the military. I realize starting dentist makes less than that but the earlier u start working and opening ur own practice the more money u'll make in the future. So why waste 4-5 yrs of ur life, that is if you don't give a sh1t about serving ur country.

 

[superman]

hmm im really confused why so many ppl r doing the army scholarship, because when you think about it. Dentist's avg salary is 118k a year so that means even if u go to nyu with tuition 47 k a year, when you get out of d-school you can easily pay back loans within 2 yrs. So.....why do you wanna waste 4-5 yrs serving the military. I realize starting dentist makes less than that but the earlier u start working and opening ur own practice the more money u'll make in the future. So why waste 4-5 yrs of ur life, that is if you don't give a sh1t about serving ur country.

pay back within 2 years? wow that would be awesome...
but, let's see, let's take nyu for example...i think u would have a debt of around 250K to 300K attending nyu (plus interest). your proposed dentists' average salary of 118k times 2 years is 236K... but let's say you made 250K to 300 K in two years. ok so it matches the debt u accumulated at nyu. but what % of ur income ur willing to spend to pay off ur debt... i doubt many people will use 100% of income to pay off their debt.

 

[superman]

% of incoming toward paying off debt, plus gotta consider taxes, living expenses, dental expenses (very expensive), etc. etc. etc.

 

[Hildergard]

I have heard that some of new grads actually make less than 100,000 in their first two years. I think you don't really know how much (how lucky) you will be making once you're out of school.

 

[DDSSlave]

I have heard that some of new grads actually make less than 100,000 in their first two years. I think you don't really know how much (how lucky) you will be making once you're out of school.

Some? I'd say most new grads make below 100k the first year.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Some? I'd say most new grads make below 100k the first year.

I dunno. I think it's probably closer to a 50/50 split. Certainly most specialists make more than 100k their first year, and many associates have arrangments that allow them to make more than that as well.

 

[drusier]

remember u can also apply ur debt against your current taxable income, hence owing much less in taxes (nothing?). I would image many dentist use their debt as an income shield many years after it could be paid off.

 

[trypmo]

remember u can also apply ur debt against your current taxable income, hence owing much less in taxes (nothing?). I would image many dentist use their debt as an income shield many years after it could be paid off.

You can?? I thought it was only the interest paid on debts that's tax deductible. That would be great if I were wrong!!

 

[jdcinza13]

trypmo...you are correct. I've never heard of any loophole THAT big.

 

[trypmo]

Aww, rats!

 

[denty]

You can get Title IV Stafford Loans up to about 38K if I remember correctly, and from there you can get other personal signature loans from companies that specialize in loaning to dental/medical students. Everything is worked through the school and the Financial Aid office. They will have all kinds of options for you. I'm not in school yet, but you can have up to a maximum of 128-138K in Title IV Stafford loans at one time...once you pay it down, you can get more money. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

so when you say getting 128 k do you mean over a four year plan or all up front? And how exactly do you qualify, do you need credit? own something (like a car or house). Is there a website that breaks this down better?

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

remember u can also apply ur debt against your current taxable income, hence owing much less in taxes (nothing?). I would image many dentist use their debt as an income shield many years after it could be paid off.

nope...if you make more than 50k single or more than 100k married then you cannot deduct student loan interest. So as a dentist first year out you are pretty much screwed.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc456.html

Now there is a way to do it but its not easy. After you open your practice you can take out a small business loan to pay it off and then your corp could deduct the interest from net income.

There are a few more ways...but go get an MBA like I did to learn the tricks

 

[eran76]

There is another option....


Many loan programs do NOT require you to start paying back your loans until you’ve finished school. If you choose to specialize, then you probably have 3-6 more years of school left. Also, many specialty programs actually pay YOU a salary for being enrolled (varies).
So, if you get out of post-doc education and are making possibly $150 - 300 K, depending on location, specialty and time passed, you'll not only be able to pay back your loans faster (b/c of the higher salary), but you'll also have been already making some money and not eating Ramen every day.

Con: interest could accrue through the period and either cost you more money, or force you to take your initially meager post-doc salary and put it towards interest payments.

Reply: ALL loans cost interest and most people take years to repay the loans anyway. The long view approach says that paying off the loans in a shorter total period saves more money that starting the pay off the loan right away but in tiny amounts.

(Incidentally, unless you've got $1/2 mil in the bank to spend on a new practice right out of school, you'll be paying loans off for a while.)

Pro: If you’re a specialist, say OMFS, you could join a group practice (fuzzy on financial details) and NOT have to take out an additional massive loan to buy a practice and instead can focus on paying back student loans.


Eran


"Will this crown last forever?" (80yo patient).

"The only permanent thing in Dentistry is extractions!"

 

[qaztake82]

does anyone know about the government grant program that pays for your healthcare education with a condition that you serve in a underserved clinic environment for 4 years in return??? i know it exists for med school but i am not sure it includes other healthcare professions.

 

[edkNARF]

does anyone know about the government grant program that pays for your healthcare education with a condition that you serve in a underserved clinic environment for 4 years in return??? i know it exists for med school but i am not sure it includes other healthcare professions.

It is the National Health Service Corps (NHSC). Here is their website: http://nhsc.bhpr.hrsa.gov/join_us/scholarships.cfm. This was mentioned at several interviews. It takes a while to set up, so you sould contact your schools financial aid office ASAP if you are interested.