PBL (Problem Based Learning) scares me

Started by bozz
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bozz

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For some reason, the thought of it gives me a knot in my stomach.... never been used to anything like it

For some reason, I feel like I'd be left out or something since there is no "set" curriculum... it seems like I'd be ad libbing

Any words of comfort? I am very self motivated .. but I feel like I won't be exposed to "a lot of material" like you traditionally are supposed to be exposed to... and maybe that'll hurt with the USMLE?
 
bozz said:
For some reason, the thought of it gives me a knot in my stomach.... never been used to anything like it

For some reason, I feel like I'd be left out or something since there is no "set" curriculum... it seems like I'd be ad libbing

Any words of comfort? I am very self motivated .. but I feel like I won't be exposed to "a lot of material" like you traditionally are supposed to be exposed to... and maybe that'll hurt with the USMLE?
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As long as you are self motivated, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Most med schoo PBL curriculums are designed to get you through the material...it's just in a different way.

I prefer to think of it this way: You have to learn everything on the boards either way. With PBL you have more freedom to tailor what you're learning to the boards, and do it how you want to learn.
 
digitlnoize said:
As long as you are self motivated, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Most med schoo PBL curriculums are designed to get you through the material...it's just in a different way.

I prefer to think of it this way: You have to learn everything on the boards either way. With PBL you have more freedom to tailor what you're learning to the boards, and do it how you want to learn.
Click to expand...

What I've heard the most is that PBL is not very time efficient. 1st and 2nd years simply don't have the "knowledge base" to be focusing that much on critical thinking. I guess I'd like more of a balance.
 
I think you'll be fine, although you could always avoid applying to schools who utilize the PBL program.
 
Lol.. I was doing a thread on PBL... and the pre-meds seem to love the idea

but the med students always say they hate it
 
bozz said:
PBL scares me
Click to expand...

Go someplace without it or get over it - life is too short to have this be something worth getting upset about.
 
bozz said:
For some reason, the thought of it gives me a knot in my stomach.... never been used to anything like it

For some reason, I feel like I'd be left out or something since there is no "set" curriculum... it seems like I'd be ad libbing

Any words of comfort? I am very self motivated .. but I feel like I won't be exposed to "a lot of material" like you traditionally are supposed to be exposed to... and maybe that'll hurt with the USMLE?
Click to expand...


I don't know. Are you sure you're mature enough for medical school?
 
First year med student. Not a fan of PBL, so I avoided it. Glad I did.
 
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bozz said:
For some reason, the thought of it gives me a knot in my stomach.... never been used to anything like it

For some reason, I feel like I'd be left out or something since there is no "set" curriculum... it seems like I'd be ad libbing

Any words of comfort? I am very self motivated .. but I feel like I won't be exposed to "a lot of material" like you traditionally are supposed to be exposed to... and maybe that'll hurt with the USMLE?
Click to expand...

I am going into a PBL heavy program, and from what I have heard it is the group coordinator that can make the class feel miserable or seem great.
 
ufgrad00 said:
I am going into a PBL heavy program, and from what I have heard it is the group coordinator that can make the class feel miserable or seem great.
Click to expand...


Ironically, if you are in a lecture based program, and you are an independent learner, you can just show up if the lecturer is good, or not, and just study the material on your own, which is my preference. I just want to learn the material and kill step one. Sitting around in a group with folks who have no background in the subject, including me, seems like a huge waste of time. PBL is not my cup of tea, but to each his or her own, but education seems like it has its trendy trends, but I know how I learn, and I will pass on the waste of time for me. So choose a school that is compatible with your learning style. I would hate a PBL school. I really would be miserable. But to each his (or her) own. Good luck guys (and girls).
 
bozz said:
I was doing a thread on PBL... and the pre-meds seem to love the idea

but the med students always say they hate it
Click to expand...

Maybe only the unhappy students are posting about it. I like PBL. It's very social. I like deciding what to learn and when to learn it. Our small-group facilitators keep us from floundering around when we get off track, so we don't waste our time. We have very few lectures, so there's plenty of time for self-study. We have tests on the basic concepts often enough to gauge whether we're on track with the expected learning curve. I was sick of attending lectures all day in undergrad. I was leary about trying something so completely different, but find this new learning style keeps my interest and makes the basic science seem relevant.
 
If PBL were optional like lectures I would have no problem with it. Unfortunately PBL is required. That's the thing about lectures, even if they scheduled 12 hours of them a day I wouldn't care because no ones forcing me to sit through them. I would just go to a few hours worth and learn all I need to independently. PBL takes away your freedom, PBL is un-American.

Mobius1985 said:
Maybe only the unhappy students are posting about it. I like PBL. It's very social. I like deciding what to learn and when to learn it. Our small-group facilitators keep us from floundering around when we get off track, so we don't waste our time. We have very few lectures, so there's plenty of time for self-study. We have tests on the basic concepts often enough to gauge whether we're on track with the expected learning curve. I was sick of attending lectures all day in undergrad. I was leary about trying something so completely different, but find this new learning style keeps my interest and makes the basic science seem relevant.
Click to expand...
 
searun said:
Ironically, if you are in a lecture based program, and you are an independent learner, you can just show up if the lecturer is good, or not, and just study the material on your own, which is my preference. I just want to learn the material and kill step one. Sitting around in a group with folks who have no background in the subject, including me, seems like a huge waste of time. PBL is not my cup of tea, but to each his or her own, but education seems like it has its trendy trends, but I know how I learn, and I will pass on the waste of time for me. So choose a school that is compatible with your learning style. I would hate a PBL school. I really would be miserable. But to each his (or her) own. Good luck guys (and girls).
Click to expand...

To tell you the truth however, I have always done my best in courses which like you said, leave you to study on your own and be independent. Most of my classes at UF were 400 or so students and I have learned to become rather independent compared to when I started school. If I had my druthers, I would not want to do PBL, but unfortunately my campus of Miami doesn't leave me with a choice. I also want to mention that the curriculum is P/F.

In my schedule as an M1, I will have a 2 hour PBL session on Monday and Wednesday 10am to 12, and a larger (64 students) 2 hour case study class on Fridays. So in a typical week, I really only have 6 hours of sitting in PBL per week. In perspective however, I am currently working for not enough at a job which is 9am-6pm 4-5 days a week, and is sucking the life out of me. I have begun to count the days till I leave, so knowing that most of my days as an M1 will be over no later than 2pm is something I am happy to accept with open arms, even if there is PBL involved.
 
Mobius1985 said:
Maybe only the unhappy students are posting about it. I like PBL. It's very social. I like deciding what to learn and when to learn it. Our small-group facilitators keep us from floundering around when we get off track, so we don't waste our time. We have very few lectures, so there's plenty of time for self-study. We have tests on the basic concepts often enough to gauge whether we're on track with the expected learning curve. I was sick of attending lectures all day in undergrad. I was leary about trying something so completely different, but find this new learning style keeps my interest and makes the basic science seem relevant.
Click to expand...

Just wondering!!! doesn't that depending on who are in your group and if you get a good facilitator too? I am just wondering because i'm trying to choose between the two..
 
maybe someone at a PBL-based school can answer this one for me: how do you get tested on the material?

Since you don't have lecture notes and you do an infinite loop of circle jerk sessions, I don't understand how you know what you are expected to know (unless you are supposed to know everything about medicine since PBL expects to research all the minute details that you come up with in your case).

As for my opinion of PBL its pretty low, our school had it once a week for 2 hours during our biochem/genetics course and it was hellish for some groups with preceptors who refused to give them any hints (surprisingly first semester M1 dont know ****). I remember learning about all the normal ranges of electrolytes in PBL, but it never stuck. It wasn't until physio this semester when we had to learn them from lecture that it actually stuck.

I think its much more beneficial for a teaching physician to slowly go through a case with a small group of students after they have learned the material in lecture. That way the teaching physician can explain certain aspects of the case that are essential to understand and answer questions that the students have. If the students lead the discussion away from the way the case is going its fine, but the teacher can instruct the class on why those ideas were incorrect or misguided. This is the way we do physio at my school, and I gotta tell you, it works. Lecture + Cases = Great. PBL is pretty much cases, I suppose, but the difference is that PBL is an inefficient way to approach cases.
 
Mobius1985 said:
Maybe only the unhappy students are posting about it. I like PBL. It's very social. I like deciding what to learn and when to learn it. Our small-group facilitators keep us from floundering around when we get off track, so we don't waste our time. We have very few lectures, so there's plenty of time for self-study. We have tests on the basic concepts often enough to gauge whether we're on track with the expected learning curve. I was sick of attending lectures all day in undergrad. I was leary about trying something so completely different, but find this new learning style keeps my interest and makes the basic science seem relevant.
Click to expand...
I like PBL too, and I agree with you, Mobius.
QuantumMechanic said:
maybe someone at a PBL-based school can answer this one for me: how do you get tested on the material?
Click to expand...
Simple: we don't have tests at CCLCM. 🙂

Since you don't have lecture notes and you do an infinite loop of circle jerk sessions, I don't understand how you know what you are expected to know (unless you are supposed to know everything about medicine since PBL expects to research all the minute details that you come up with in your case).
Click to expand...
We have seminars as well as PBL. Our curriculum is about half and half. We know what we're supposed to know because the faculty release a list of learning objectives each Friday, and we can see if we met them or not.

If anyone's interested, I wrote this post about PBL at CCLCM last year.

bozz, I agree with the others who have told you that if PBL isn't your thing, don't go to a PBL school. You can get a good education with or without PBL, so do what works better for you. Lecture isn't my thing, and I'm very happy I didn't go to a lecture-intensive school. Ditto for having to take tests. 🙂
 
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NEpats said:
Just wondering!!! doesn't that depending on who are in your group and if you get a good facilitator too? I am just wondering because i'm trying to choose between the two..
Click to expand...

We switch groups with each unit, and I'm in the third one now. All three facilitators have been good, and I haven't heard any gossip about others being bad. I've seen on other posts that this isn't universally true elsewhere. As far as the group members, with each one there are some who talk too much, others who are characters, others with strange ideas, but i look at them as being entertaining and don't let them bother me. The facilitators are pretty good at toning down the noisy ones and encouraging the quiet ones to participate.
 
Mobius1985 said:
We switch groups with each unit, and I'm in the third one now. All three facilitators have been good, and I haven't heard any gossip about others being bad. I've seen on other posts that this isn't universally true elsewhere. As far as the group members, with each one there are some who talk too much, others who are characters, others with strange ideas, but i look at them as being entertaining and don't let them bother me. The facilitators are pretty good at toning down the noisy ones and encouraging the quiet ones to participate.
Click to expand...


that's impressive...i am deciding on what kind of school to attend now.. i guess the concern is..like you said, it may not be universally true everywhere...
 
Mobius1985 said:
We switch groups with each unit, and I'm in the third one now. All three facilitators have been good, and I haven't heard any gossip about others being bad. I've seen on other posts that this isn't universally true elsewhere. As far as the group members, with each one there are some who talk too much, others who are characters, others with strange ideas, but i look at them as being entertaining and don't let them bother me. The facilitators are pretty good at toning down the noisy ones and encouraging the quiet ones to participate.
Click to expand...
That's how we do it too. We change up about every two months or so. Some groups gel better quickly than others do, but eventually all of the groups get into the groove. My very first group last year (I'm finishing up my second year now) was a little rough since we didn't know what we were doing, but it worked out ok by the end. I really do think PBL gets better the more you practice doing it.

Mobius1985 said:
Whew! I'm glad I'm not the only one.
Click to expand...
No, I think the unhappy people just vent more about it on SDN. :laugh:
 
Tired said:
Here's some words of comfort (from someone who felt the same as you starting medical school):

PBL curriculum
USMLE Step 1: 247
USMLE Step 2: 259
Clinical Grades: all honors except Ob/Gyn
Currently Orthopaedic Surgery Intern
Click to expand...

And yet still unable to see the folly of anecdote.
 
Mobius1985 said:
I like deciding what to learn and when to learn it.
Click to expand...

It's amazing. PBL schools have now actually managed to absolve themselves of actually teaching or providing educational structure. Moreover, they've managed to sell it to the students as a good idea.
 
Gut Shot said:
And yet still unable to see the folly of anecdote.
Click to expand...

Gut Shot said:
It's amazing. PBL schools have now actually managed to absolve themselves of actually teaching or providing educational structure. Moreover, they've managed to sell it to the students as a good idea.
Click to expand...

Tired said:
He asked for words of support. I offered them.

Had he asked for RCTs, I would have deferred to your mountain of evidence.

Oh wait . . .
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2 points for Gut Shot, minus 1 point for Tired. :\

I hate the idea of MD by Wikipedia!PBL. Seminar/case study as an adjunct to more trad!actual teaching, that I can get behind.
 
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Tired said:
I'll tell you what, I'll make you a deal.

If you can come up with anything even 10% as witty and insightful as GutShot, I'll take the time to engage you in conversation. But as of right now, you've lobbed these lame little cliche insults in several threads over 15 minutes, and all they've done is put me to sleep.

Work on it, tiger, and maybe someday a handsome man will find you interesting.
Click to expand...

I'm bored, I like poking people, and he's an attending. 🙂

edit: and if that means you'll go away, I've done my job.
 
Tired said:
Here's some words of comfort (from someone who felt the same as you starting medical school):

PBL curriculum
USMLE Step 1: 247
USMLE Step 2: 259
Clinical Grades: all honors except Ob/Gyn
Currently Orthopaedic Surgery Intern
Click to expand...

board score averages for an entire class would be more useful, and would be even more useful if they were from a school that was considered 'mid-tier' in terms of competitiveness of admissions (so that naturally good standardized test takers could be accounted for better).
 
PBL is the worst invention in the history of mankind.

Unless you are a gunner/tool you will hate it.
 
Sitting around in a group with folks who have no background in the subject, including me, seems like a huge waste of time.
Click to expand...
Could someone give an example of a situation where this is a problem?
 
Tired said:
So grumpy. I wonder where your specialty gets its reputation?
Click to expand...

From dealing with clinicians who think they're a lot smarter than they really are.

Tired said:
Honestly, it's like you don't even remember your own posts from five minutes ago.
Click to expand...

Scanning for relevance. None detected. Carry on.
 
QuantumMechanic said:
board score averages for an entire class.
Click to expand...

No way, man.

Guy I knew
PBL curriculum
Step 1 - failed
Step 1 redux - barely passed
Step 2 - barely passed
Failed to match general surgery
Scrambled into prelim surgery in frigid, crime-infested Hellhole
 
I'm just an ignorant premed, but ... Cornell does a lecture related to whatever you'll be covering in PBL that week. So you'll never jump into a case where you're completely lost. Everyone will have at least a foundation to build on.

And the Dean of Admissions quoted aHarvard study saying that PBL students do just as well as traditional students (not better) on the boards, but they are significantly happier with the quality of their education. But I don't have the specifics of the study or where to find.

I'll let you know next year when I go to Cornell.
 
That is how the PBL will be done on my campus of Miami. In the morning we are supposed to have a 2 hour lecture followed by a 2 hour PBL session on the same subject that we had in lecture. I will have lectures 5 days a week and only 2 small group PBL sessions related to what was taught in lecture.
 
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Hey guys,

I was wondering what learning format medical schools employ these days. I mean, do more medical schools do traditional, didactic learning or are they employing the problem based learning? In addition, has anyone heard of case-based learning and is this similar to PBL?

It would be interesting to see if there are any stats to compare the effectiveness of either learning format on future performance of the Step 1 of the USMLE.If anyone can obtain such data, it would be awesome if you could share it with the rest of us.
 
pride4jc727 said:
Hey guys,

I was wondering what learning format medical schools employ these days. I mean, do more medical schools do traditional, didactic learning or are they employing the problem based learning? In addition, has anyone heard of case-based learning and is this similar to PBL?
Click to expand...

from what i understand, it can run the gamut from all lecture to all PBL. it seems like most schools are somewhere in between with a combination of the two.
 
schools like Case are:

2 hours of lecture a week and the rest... just PBL
 
It's really funny, when I was a pre-med they made it sound like PBL was this great and exciting thing which would totally enhance the way you learn.

90% of my classmates hate PBL, and the 10% that don't are for the most part tools.

Picture this...imagine the biggest dorks/gunners/tools in your classes right now.

Now imagine spending 2 hours in a room talking discussing the nuances of some obsecure case that may or may not be relevant to the lectures you just had with those same dorks/gunners/tools. It might be fun to play doctor the first few times, but it gets old very quickly.

Oh, and on top of that you usually get graded for participation....enjoy.
 
DarknightX said:
It's really funny, when I was a pre-med they made it sound like PBL was this great and exciting thing which would totally enhance the way you learn.

90% of my classmates hate PBL, and the 10% that don't are for the most part tools.

Picture this...imagine the biggest dorks/gunners/tools in your classes right now.

Now imagine spending 2 hours in a room talking discussing the nuances of some obsecure case that may or may not be relevant to the lectures you just had with those same dorks/gunners/tools. It might be fun to play doctor the first few times, but it gets old very quickly.

Oh, and on top of that you usually get graded for participation....enjoy.
Click to expand...

Where do you go to school? Sounds great.
 
Go look at some of the previous threads dealing with PBL. A lot of this has already been hashed out with good, thought out, responses from both sides.

I'm at an all PBL school (except for gross anatomy, and various mini-courses). Overall I like it. Like everything else in life it's not perfect, and there are little aspects of it that some of us would like to tweak.... but since it is the main "program" here the school has the vested interest of doing it well and making the proper changes. From looking at some of the past threads regarding PBL I can't help but think that at least some of the negative attitudes come from exposure to PBL-type programs that weren't executed well at a particular school.

Anyway, if anyone has any specific questions feel free to ask.
 
pbl sounds loike a much more enjoyable and memorable way to elarn.

I think be actively engaing in problems while getting the core materials through lectures will really make the lessons "stick". They also work on team work skills.
 
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