PBL (problem based learning)

[Toran]

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I am interested in finding a medical school out there that relies heavily, or entirely on problem based learning. Can anyone help me?
I have a particular interest in staying in California, and being on the semester system. However these are more flexible.
Please tell me your experiences with PBL, and your opinions of the program.
Thanks in advance.
Toran

 

[NMMed]

The University of New Mexico was the first school in the country to adopt PBL, and is still (IMHO 🙂 at the forefront in innovation using the strategy.

UNM SOM website.

 

[southerndoc]

Originally posted by NMMed
The University of New Mexico was the first school in the country to adopt PBL, and is still (IMHO 🙂 at the forefront in innovation using the strategy.

UNM adopted PBL in 1993.

Mercer University was the first American school to adopt PBL. They have used PBL for their entire program since the school opened in 1980.

The first school in the world to use PBL was a school in Canada.

USC recently transitioned to a PBL school.

Cheers!

 

[Jaded Soul]

Originally posted by Geek Medic
USC recently transitioned to a PBL school.

No we didn't. The first 2 years is about 95% didactic. We have one PBL-style block at the end of Year 2 for 10 weeks. It's not true PBL because the material is almost entirely review and the cases are very narrowly structured. Most of the time in that last 10 weeks we're actually just sitting and listening to students lecture on various review topics.

I think what you meant to say is that we recently transitioned to an organ systems-based approach.

 

[NMMed]

Originally posted by Geek Medic
UNM adopted PBL in 1993.

Cheers!

UNM adopted PBL more than 20 years ago. It was originally a two track program, with FP done as PBL and everything else as traditional. In 1993 they moved to an al PBL model. UNM was the first US school (I believe) to adopt PBL (which was indeed first done at McMaster's in Canada).

A quick paper on PBL

 

[Toran]

Looks like a really nice approach to studying medicine there at Mercer. I would really like to find something in the western states. Any out there?

 

[NMMed]

Originally posted by Toran
Looks like a really nice approach to studying medicine there at Mercer. I would really like to find something in the western states. Any out there?

Well, I personally think New Mexico and Texas count as "western"... 🙂

I don't know of any coastal schools that are (at this time) 100% PBL.

 

[southerndoc]

Originally posted by Jaded Soul
No we didn't. The first 2 years is about 95% didactic. We have one PBL-style block at the end of Year 2 for 10 weeks. It's not true PBL because the material is almost entirely review and the cases are very narrowly structured. Most of the time in that last 10 weeks we're actually just sitting and listening to students lecture on various review topics.

I think what you meant to say is that we recently transitioned to an organ systems-based approach.

Hmm, I had read an article about it a couple months ago. Maybe I'm confusing it with another California school? Who knows.

 

[qweewq11]

[jabsom cheerleading] Yay, another JABSOM person! At risk of inadvertently triggering another AA thread (as well as using an excessive number of acronyms in a single sentence), we JABSOM PBL people are URMs here on SDN.[/jabsom cheerleading]

PS: I hope your heel gets better 🙂

Originally posted by heelpain
Jabsom is all pbl! It is a block system that is divided into units. You really need to be motivated. The information is not spoonfed to students. Students conduct research and present their information to their tutorial group. You also get assigned to preceptors. So, you see patients from your first yr of school.

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by Geek Medic
Hmm, I had read an article about it a couple months ago. Maybe I'm confusing it with another California school? Who knows.

It has, essentially it changed to an organ based system and mixes in the PBL specific to each organ system. So if your learning neuro, lectures + labs cover neuro, PBL cases come from neurology and the physical exams you learn would be the neuro, ENT, and optho. It tries to integrate and make the best of PBL with didactic teaching, also there is a TON of patient and standardized patient contact at USC.

What jaded soul was talking about was at the end of all the organ systems USC gives an integrated cases block which is all PBL to prep for the USMLE. This is the only block that is 100% PBL, which is good. Too much of any one type of teaching leads to routine and boredom. USC is also constantly revising the course per student suggestions.

USC school of medicine 2006

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by zbarnes
USC school of medicine 2006

Keck School of Medicine at USC. You could get expelled if someone sees you writing that 😉

PS you can also put a signature by going to user CP (Top of page) and under preferences or profile (I forget) there is a signature part.

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by Jalby
Keck School of Medicine at USC. You could get expelled if someone sees you writing that 😉

Not enough of that money went to reducing my tuition, but they are sensitive about it arent they. Thanks for the tip.🙂

Keck School of Medicine at USC
Class of 2006

 

[CANES2006]

Originally posted by zbarnes
It has, essentially it changed to an organ based system and mixes in the PBL specific to each organ system. So if your learning neuro, lectures + labs cover neuro, PBL cases come from neurology and the physical exams you learn would be the neuro, ENT, and optho. It tries to integrate and make the best of PBL with didactic teaching, also there is a TON of patient and standardized patient contact at USC.

What jaded soul was talking about was at the end of all the organ systems USC gives an integrated cases block which is all PBL to prep for the USMLE. This is the only block that is 100% PBL, which is good. Too much of any one type of teaching leads to routine and boredom. USC is also constantly revising the course per student suggestions.

USC school of medicine 2006

Seems like my school follows the same model that your school does. We also get a 10 week block of PBL at the end of year 2 that serves to prep us for the USLME. They also modify the curriculum according to students' suggestions. UMiami is currently entering their third year of this new curriculum that is mostly organ-based modules, and I think it really helps to bring everything together. Too much PBL would not be entirely good for learning. At least from my standpoint. 😉

 

[southerndoc]

Originally posted by CANES2006
Too much PBL would not be entirely good for learning. At least from my standpoint. 😉

Our first two years is nothing but PBL. I disagree that too much PBL is not good for learning. Our Step I scores attest to the fact that PBL is a great way to learn. I've had numerous attendings comment about how students from my school are better prepared for clerkships than most other students, and how all of our students can integrate multiple things, see the whole picture of what's going on, and still not forget the details.

 

[RebelWarriorUK]

You might want to check out the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston (Big up UTMB!!). The curriculum is heavily slanted to PBL and also has early clinical contact (which was important to me).
As others have mentioned, I believe that learning through case studies will be a more effective method of learning for me, rather than being lectured at, and will make me remember the material for longer. A matter of personal choice I guess. Anyway, the website is www.utmb.edu.
respect
K

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by Geek Medic
Our first two years is nothing but PBL. I disagree that too much PBL is not good for learning. Our Step I scores attest to the fact that PBL is a great way to learn. I've had numerous attendings comment about how students from my school are better prepared for clerkships than most other students, and how all of our students can integrate multiple things, see the whole picture of what's going on, and still not forget the details.

Everyones different and obviously we only go to one medical school in our careers and dont really have the opportunity to truly see what one anothers curriculum is like.

What does 100% PBL really mean, types of lectures, what do you do? I'm not sure if i totally understand how different the two curriculums are (from USC). I have talked to students at traditional schools and know that our curriculum is radically different/better. You just start to think and act like a doctor from day one. Plus we are in the hospital 1-2 times a week (from the first week of school) mandatory doing Hx and Physicals, with the opportunity to hang with surgery or ER as many nights a week as you want. I'm just wondering bcuz our curriculum is very integrated and want to know what the difference is compared to jabsom.

 

[notjvarma]

I think Pittsburgh does some PBL stuff, but I'm not certain if it's 100% PBL. Indiana is PBL at one of their 11 or so campuses (Gary I think) and Ohio State has just discontinued their PBL program this year.

 

[Doc Ivy]

The first school in the world to use PBL was a school in Canada.

Thank you! give credit where credit is due.
McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario was the first to use PBL on their MD class of 1969. So the entering class of 1966 (3yr curriculum) was the first to experiment the pedagogy shift.

Peace~Doc (your friendly Canadian )🙂

 

[snurok]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned -

Indiana University School of Medicine, in Indianapolis, Indiana has a pure PBL program, and its actually created a small documentary that it distributes to other schools about PBL.

IU is divided into 9 campuses for the first two years of med school - which allows it to be one of the largest schools in the country - and each campus has a specialty. I applied to IU specifically because of the PBL program - plus, Indianapolis is a great city. Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[SocietyRed]

Southern Illinois University SIU uses PBL. They were not the first school to do so however. SIU almost exclusively accepts in-state students.

 

[dacaveman]

they do pbl differently in every school as far as i know. PBL from my school right now is about 90% small group discussions and 10% lectures. they give us a new case every week. what usually happens is that one day (we meet 3x/week) we are given the patients history and chief complaint. we formulate hypotheses and stuff bout the possible causes of the patient's symptoms. the 2nd meeting, we get the phony PE results and we discuss about our management options, the diagnostic workups that we should perform on the sick patient 😀. on the 3rd we meeting we receive the results from the work ups we supposedly requested and then we diagnose the patient and give the appropriate therapy. then after all that they give us an hour long boring lecture on how the case should have been approached and managed.

i find learning more fun this way. our discussions are pretty much informal, sometimes our discussion drifts from the topic hehe, but i think im learning more stuff with PBL than i think i would with the traditional lecture based system.

 

[Toran]

caveman,
which school do you go to?

Thank you all for your help with the pbl question. Hawaii is looking pretty good. We'll see; I am off to do a masters now, and possibly a PhD. Then to med school.

Toran

 

[dacaveman]

i study at cebu institute of medicine, philippines. though u most prolly never heard of it, c.i.m. has maintained quite a sweet reputation round here in the philippines.
our school just recently adopted the PBL approach and as someone mentioned it, our PBL class are relatively better prepared at clinics than the class before us who were under tradional. the biggest concern, everyone concerned has, is how the PBL class will perform in the board exams compared to traditional class. the pioneering PBL class is still on its 3rd year, and i'm the only slacker in the class.

 

[newt]

Harvard

New pathway

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

PBL scares me, I like to get spoon feed.

 

[zbarnes]

USC has a great mix of PBL and lecture.

 

[8744]

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
PBL scares me, I like to get spoon feed.

Me too. We have basicly an organ system based lecture curriculum with a little bit of small group activities thrown in for variety. I absolutely hated small groups and being asked to research a clinical problem.

News flash. I'm going into debt at the rate of $150 dollars per day in exchange for teaching. If I'm going to teach myself then why not give me a little tuition break?

What usually happen is I get an assignment, I go to medline and print out the first likely article and use this to show the fruits of my exhaustive research. Or, horror of horrors, I use Google.

No offense meant to any of you self-starters and exceptionally motivated students. At my school most people share my attitude about PBL. Just tell us what we need to know, lecture us about it, and test us.

I'm asking this in all seriousness. How do you know you will cover everything neccessary for Step 1 if you get no guidance? Do you have to cram like mad in May to get up to speed?

 

[Jim Picotte]

We separated each PBL section into an organ system like most 2nd years. They give you a course outline of what you should have covered by the end as there is no way each case will discuss everything you need to know. You had to do a lot of outside reading and such, but I did well on Step I and even better on Step II and III. When you're out of medical school and in residency, you have no guides...just have to read and study on your own. Whatever works for you though.

 

[southerndoc]

Originally posted by Panda Bear
I'm asking this in all seriousness. How do you know you will cover everything neccessary for Step 1 if you get no guidance? Do you have to cram like mad in May to get up to speed?

You get guidance. It's not like you pick a bunch of random books and start reading.

At the beginning of each organ system block (phase), you're given a syllabus that lists what pages of the primary texts you are required to read, your learning objectives you must satisfy, etc. Faculty are available for questions, tutors are in the tutorial session to make sure you are on track and going into proper depth (or not too deep), and occasional resource sessions and/or lectures are held with faculty members on a class basis.

You may prefer the lecture format your first two years, but your clerkships will essentially be PBL. You'll be learning on your own since there will not be enough lectures to cover every aspect of your respective clerkship. You will also be performing Medline indices, UpToDate searches, etc. on your patients to learn about them. Hence, you will be doing problem-based learning.

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by Geek Medic
UNM adopted PBL in 1993.

Mercer University was the first American school to adopt PBL. They have used PBL for their entire program since the school opened in 1980.

The first school in the world to use PBL was a school in Canada.

USC recently transitioned to a PBL school.

Cheers!

McMaster University developed PBL, and was the first school to use it as a focus of training. It was picked up by Harvard next, I think, and has now spread like a plague to most of the Canadian medical schools. I did not realize it was big in the US too.

Most schools have a major didactic component and graft PBL into the afternoons (whereas at McMaster and Harvard it is the focus).

IMHO, a bigger waste of time cannot be found. I heard that Mac and Harvard were both thinking of ditching it.

 

[Toran]

I think that some of the PBL versus Lecture debate varies from the generation that you grew up. One crowd grew up listening to the radio, and learns from auditory stimulation. Another, younger crowd, grew up with random visual stimulus with quick breaks (commercials) and this leads to a very short attention span. I am of the younger crowd. Many people of the younger crowd are also kinesthetic learners, that need to be moving or writing to really digest the information.
Moreover, all humans learn in story format. You will always remember things better if you have other details with which to connect them. Australian Aboriginal folk would remember family history back for centuries; they had context to remember those details. You ask most family practitioners to tell you detailed information about anatomy or biochemisty, I suggest they wouldn't remember. That is because most only learned for the test, then flushed the information (you know what I'm talking about).
My contention is that PBL would lend context to the information, by putting each fragment of data with others that go together logically. If I can't remember one bit, and can remember others, then I can figure it out from the rest of the story.

Besides, lectures are often too early in the morning, involve scan trons for testing, and I can't ask questions. I would rather go to google and figure out a puzzle; this I believe is what medicine is all about. A patient comes in and has a problem, and chances are in one of your PBLs you had a similar situation.

toran