PBL Schools

[bunnyslippers]

I know it's late in the game to be asking this, but which schools besides Western and Cornell teach by means of problem based learning?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[twelvetigers]

I think Western is the only one that does it 100% that way. Cornell focuses on it a lot more than many of them. Most schools will have here-and-there activities involving PBL but will not rely on it heavily.

 

[meadow36]

Florida is primarily PBL. Go Gators!!!

 

[bern]

LSU has about 2 weeks of PBL per year.

 

[KittyRex]

I believe Tufts has PBL throughout the first 3 years, in addition to traditional lectures.

 

[starlene45]

Recently discovered Iowa incorporates a little PBL into pretty much every semester-- it's listed in their curriculum as "Case studies" or something, and they discuss it in their admissions brochure.

 

[runnerDC]

Yes, Tufts has a once-a-week PBL class for 1st, 2nd, and, I think, 3rd years (up until they go into clinics, I assume). I think PBL is a nice complement; what we work on in PBL generally mirrors something we're learning about in our other classes. But the vast majority of our curriculum is lecture-based.

I believe Tufts has PBL throughout the first 3 years, in addition to traditional lectures.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Hi there!
I wanted to start a brand new thread about this, and if I don't get any responses I may have to. I know this post is from 2008 so we will just have to see what happens!

So, PBL suits me and my style of learning 100%. I do not like traditional lecture, and don't think I would be able to attend a school that is primarily lecture based. I am a CA resident. My top choice is Western b/c of its PBL style and loving warm weather. However, it is so expensive since it is a private school. I will apply to Davis but my gpa is not has high as I want it to be (I am trying my hardest)! I will apply this cycle, and am planning on applying to probably 10 schools so I have options.

Can anyone help me in letting me know which Vet schools in the U.S. incorporate hands on experience and/or PBL in their curriculum right away? Can you tell me how much of it is used, (once a week for first three years, 3x a week for the first two years, etc.). I also would love to be somewhere warm (I get reallly depressed in the cold, having lived in it before, and I do not do well..).

Thank you all so much in advance!

 

[last_rnd]

Purdue

 

[MassDVMMPH]

Sounds like Florida would be good for you - PBL and warm weather - humidity too, of course...

 

[mgp11001]

Is Florida really that big on PBL??

 

[MassDVMMPH]

I was just going by meadow36's comment above - of course, that was in 2008, so maybe they've given it up...

 

[jmo1012]

I think most schools incorporate quite a bit of hands on and some pbl into their curriculums these days

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Purdue

I've heard this as well.. What kind of curriculum do they have at Purdue? Do they use PBL a lot?

 

[VetMedVetMed]

I was just going by meadow36's comment above - of course, that was in 2008, so maybe they've given it up...

Yes I heard Flordia does, but I wish there was more information about it! It's frustrating to not be able to know much about any school! I also heard FL also gives IS tuition after the first year.. Is that true? My only hesitation is that they require calculus. Something I have not taken, nor have I taken Pre-calc. So is basically be planning on taking two courses I don't need for many other schools..

 

[VetMedVetMed]

I think most schools incorporate quite a bit of hands on and some pbl into their curriculums these days

Really..? Bc when I visited Ohio the only hands on experience they got was in anatomy lab. That's only twice a week, otherwise you have to get it on your own time through clubs. This I heard the same for a lot of other schools too..

 

[battie]

Just as an addition, Western is actually about middle of the pack on regards to price when taking OOS tuition into account.

 

[bbeventer]

Illinois incorporates PBL 1st and 2nd year as well.

 

[Gwenevre]

I've heard this as well.. What kind of curriculum do they have at Purdue? Do they use PBL a lot?

Purdue I know has a course for the first two years called Applications & Integration where you work in groups, your group is given a sick animal case, and your group has to diagnose and solve the problem using what you're learning concurrently in classes.

 

[jmo1012]

Really..? Bc when I visited Ohio the only hands on experience they got was in anatomy lab. That's only twice a week, otherwise you have to get it on your own time through clubs. This I heard the same for a lot of other schools too..

Well I did say most...there was a big push a few years ago to add clinical time and problem based learning to the pre-clinical years because students started really pushing for it. Many schools jumped on the ball because it was a way to remain more competitive to applicants, particularly oos applicants who were looking for reasons why they should spend more on tuition. Whether that's time on the clinic floor, hands on labs, small group sessions etc. Most schools have incorporated it into the curriculum.

 

[mgp11001]

Yes I heard Flordia does, but I wish there was more information about it! It's frustrating to not be able to know much about any school! I also heard FL also gives IS tuition after the first year.. Is that true? My only hesitation is that they require calculus. Something I have not taken, nor have I taken Pre-calc. So is basically be planning on taking two courses I don't need for many other schools..

No it doesn't you have a fixed OOS tuition

 

[Frozenshades]

Well I did say most...there was a big push a few years ago to add clinical time and problem based learning to the pre-clinical years because students started really pushing for it. Many schools jumped on the ball because it was a way to remain more competitive to applicants, particularly oos applicants who were looking for reasons why they should spend more on tuition. Whether that's time on the clinic floor, hands on labs, small group sessions etc. Most schools have incorporated it into the curriculum.

Yeah I think they might be working to incorporate some earlier clinical skills stuff here, but they haven't yet. Right now there are some live animal exercises in anatomy, but to the best of my memory after that the next live animal lab in class is junior surgery. They have you complete three week long externships as a requirement before clinics to work on clinical skills, and there are clinical skills labs throughout third year. But I think some basics would be a good incorporation, depending on when you do your small animal externship and your previous experience, pretty sure there were classmates that had never drawn blood, placed a catheter, done much small animal work at all really, before junior surgery.

Not much PBL at K-State. We had one group case project second year that I guess would fit the bill.

 

[Lab Vet]

NCSU has PBL woven throughout every year of the pre-clinical curriculum (1-3). You get plenty of exposure.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Just as an addition, Western is actually about middle of the pack on regards to price when taking OOS tuition into account.

When comparing other schools and cost of living, I found Western to be among one of the highest schools to attend. This is why it makes me feel really bad if I choose to attend over a school that is cheaper..

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Well I did say most...there was a big push a few years ago to add clinical time and problem based learning to the pre-clinical years because students started really pushing for it. Many schools jumped on the ball because it was a way to remain more competitive to applicants, particularly oos applicants who were looking for reasons why they should spend more on tuition. Whether that's time on the clinic floor, hands on labs, small group sessions etc. Most schools have incorporated it into the curriculum.

This is great to hear. I was under the impression Western was the only one that used PBL. I would absolutely love to attend Western mainly due to location, friends here, and my long time boyfriend living here who cannot move due to his job. So if I were to choose a school other than Western, it would have to be MUCH lower in cost, and preferably not in a very cold snowy area!! I also would prefer to stay on the west coast since I'd be closer to him for traveling... Does anyone know if Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Midwestern, more western state Vet schools utilize any PBL?
Again I'm not opposed to moving to the east coast again, I just reeeeeallly don't want to.

Thank you everyone SO much

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Purdue I know has a course for the first two years called Applications & Integration where you work in groups, your group is given a sick animal case, and your group has to diagnose and solve the problem using what you're learning concurrently in classes.

That sounds pretty identical to what Illinois does, except we have a solo case analysis to write up on it too.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

No it doesn't you have a fixed OOS tuition

Are you sure? Maybe I can call the school and ask, b/c I was told by a student at FL that you do get in state after the first year. Hmm...

 

[VetMedVetMed]

NCSU has PBL woven throughout every year of the pre-clinical curriculum (1-3). You get plenty of exposure.

This is great to hear! Does NCSU give IS tuition after first year? I read this on another forum.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Are you sure? Maybe I can call the school and ask, b/c I was told by a student at FL that you do get in state after the first year. Hmm...

OOS tuition is fixed. They aren't one of the schools that offers an IS change. Some schools do offer changes if you have a spouse who is a resident, though. They also accepted my "Survey of Calc" course

 

[mgp11001]

Are you sure? Maybe I can call the school and ask, b/c I was told by a student at FL that you do get in state after the first year. Hmm...

I think a few years ago they did but not anymore! I was accepted and it specifically says in your acceptance that there is a fixed tuition for OOS and that you cannot switch.

 

[Lab Vet]

This is great to hear! Does NCSU give IS tuition after first year? I read this on another forum.

Yes. I was an OOS student and converted my residency to IS after year 1.

 

[battie]

When comparing other schools and cost of living, I found Western to be among one of the highest schools to attend. This is why it makes me feel really bad if I choose to attend over a school that is cheaper..

Yeah, the cost of living is very important. It depends on how frugally you want to live.

This is great to hear. I was under the impression Western was the only one that used PBL. I would absolutely love to attend Western mainly due to location, friends here, and my long time boyfriend living here who cannot move due to his job. So if I were to choose a school other than Western, it would have to be MUCH lower in cost, and preferably not in a very cold snowy area!! I also would prefer to stay on the west coast since I'd be closer to him for traveling... Does anyone know if Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Midwestern, more western state Vet schools utilize any PBL?

I can tell you right now Colorado will have a boatload of snow and between November and March/April won't break over 40 degrees (except those weird super warm days that I call Global Warming Days). So if you don't want cold or snow, Colorado is definitely out. Washington and Oregon will also have cold days due to their coastal nearness, but I'm not sure on how much it snows a year.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

OOS tuition is fixed. They aren't one of the schools that offers an IS change. Some schools do offer changes if you have a spouse who is a resident, though. They also accepted my "Survey of Calc" course

What course is this, and could I take it online?? Is it a one-course pre-calc + calc together?

 

[VetMedVetMed]

I think a few years ago they did but not anymore! I was accepted and it specifically says in your acceptance that there is a fixed tuition for OOS and that you cannot switch.

Ok so I did hear correctly, but it is changed now.. I am so upset! I may still apply if I can handle pre-calc and calc. Unless anyone knows of a combined course, or online way of doing it quicker..

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Yeah, the cost of living is very important. It depends on how frugally you want to live.

I think I will have to live frugally in all four years of vet school no matter where I go..

I can tell you right now Colorado will have a boatload of snow and between November and March/April won't break over 40 degrees (except those weird super warm days that I call Global Warming Days). So if you don't want cold or snow, Colorado is definitely out. Washington and Oregon will also have cold days due to their coastal nearness, but I'm not sure on how much it snows a year.

I've never been to CO, but I know enough to know that it snows a lot. I also know that it is beauuutiful which might make up for it being so cold.. Does CO do any PBL? I wish there was a separate forum made for each particular school and students from those schools could add onto it about the curriculum, places to live, how they're liking the school, the area, etc.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

What course is this, and could I take it online?? Is it a one-course pre-calc + calc together?

I took it at Michigan State. I don't know if it's online. You're going to need to do research and see what calc courses are accessible by you, then communicate with the schools you want to apply to. I brought it up to show that a 'calc' requirement doesn't always have to be 'calc 1' or 'calc 2' for example.

 

[Shepherd Lover]

Purdue I know has a course for the first two years called Applications & Integration where you work in groups, your group is given a sick animal case, and your group has to diagnose and solve the problem using what you're learning concurrently in classes.

This class meets three times a week for both first and second years. We received old cases that were real patients at the teaching hospital and learn to evaluate their blood work, radiographs, blood gas analysis, ultrasounds, ect. It's pretty interesting and it's a great way to practice applying what we learn in our other classes. We also have a "hands on" course called husbandry where we learn a variety of techniques like blood draw, bandaging, trimming hooves, ect on both small and large animals. This class meets twice a week for three hours at a time for three semesters of the first two years.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Doktor Timo]

Tennessee has 1-2 weeks of PBL (except we call it ABLE) per semester, depending on the semester.

 

[DVMDream]

Why are people so caught up with PBL? Much more important things to consider when accepting a seat in vet school.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Why are people so caught up with PBL? Much more important things to consider when accepting a seat in vet school.

There are tons of things to consider when going to vet school, and I never said PBL was the only thing. Maybe PBL is not your style of learning, but it certainly is mine. It doesn't work for everyone and that's why some people may be against it. For me, I love it! I learn best by doing things and learning hands on. So if I have a number of schools to choose from (hopefully), that is important to me. Four years at a school that does solely lecture based learning for me is not what I would prefer. So, if I have the opportunity to go to another school that is roughly the same in cost but incorporates PBL, that becomes an important factor to me.

Thanks everyone for your help so far, and if any more come to mind let me know!

 

[deleted498041]

Why are people so caught up with PBL? Much more important things to consider when accepting a seat in vet school.

I think the biggest thing to consider is cost and accreditation. PBL should be way way way down there on your list of "needs" or "wants" from a vet school. <--- coming from a student at a PBL school.

 

[ktjc216]

Florida is not a PBL school. Classes are mostly lecture/lab based and is typically broken up by systems. So rather than having an individual physiology class you would have a system class, such as renal, digestion, cardio, etc., and then learn about the anatomy, physiology, histology and embryology for each system. In addition each class typically will have clinical correlate lectures that will run through clinically relevant cases that pertain to the system you are studying, however these are not PBL classes. You do have a lot of hands on experience though through anatomy and clinical skills labs, in addition to labs in other courses. You also have a lot of exposure to different specialties and are able to participate in a wide variety of wetlabs and volunteer in zoo med, and different on call programs such as colic team and small animal surgery. I'm a very hands on type of learner and feel like I learn just fine based on the curriculum set up. What I like most is that you go into clinics a year earlier than most, so you actually start in May of your second year and will continue until December of third year. Then you'll be in classes until December of fourth year, which is great for studying for NAVLE, and then you are back on clinics until graduation. You are also given the summer between third and fourth year to do externships if you choose not to do any during your vacation blocks while on clinics.

 

[Lab Vet]

There are tons of things to consider when going to vet school, and I never said PBL was the only thing. Maybe PBL is not your style of learning, but it certainly is mine. It doesn't work for everyone and that's why some people may be against it. For me, I love it! I learn best by doing things and learning hands on. So if I have a number of schools to choose from (hopefully), that is important to me. Four years at a school that does solely lecture based learning for me is not what I would prefer. So, if I have the opportunity to go to another school that is roughly the same in cost but incorporates PBL, that becomes an important factor to me.

Thanks everyone for your help so far, and if any more come to mind let me know!

How do you know that PBL is your style of learning? You've never experienced it. You have an idea that it may work for you, but you really can't say for sure until you're there. PBL is not equivalent to hands on learning, in the sense that you actually touch an animal. PBL is a lot of sitting in a room working up simulated cases with a small group under the guidance of a facilitator. Not to knock PBL- I think it's important, and I believe the earlier students are introduced to problem-based veterinary medicine, the better off they are for fourth year and beyond (that being said, traditional lecture has its place as well). You make a point of stating that you learn best by 'doing things hands on.' It's important for you to realize that PBL is not tactile. It's hands on in the sense that you're looking at data, but the case subject is nowhere to be seen. Early PBL in a curriculum is challenging to students because they (we) don't have the background knowledge to begin setting up accurate problem lists. Say, for example, that your prof hands you a photo of a foal's lung that has a bunch of white, splotchy dots on it and provides a bit of history on the foal (respiratory problems, poor doer, etc.). To really work this case PBL style, you need to know the top 4-5 differential diagnoses that would cause this disease presentation in a foal of that age. Looking at the diseased foal doesn't necessarily help you (first, because your prof provided you with the relevant history you need to arrive at the answer) and secondly, you don't have the experience to link clinical signs to pathomechanism.

In a PBL curriculum (folks from Western and Cornell, please chime in here- because this hasn't been my experience), you would need to independently search for what those differentials would be, and match them to the foal's clinical signs (researching all of this information independently in reference materials). What if you miss something? You might, because you have no idea what's going on a lot of the time. In a traditional curriculum, you would have had classes on infectious disease, so may remember a few of the foal respiratory diseases that would match the subject's pattern. You'll also have to do a bunch of research/review here because you'll never remember everything you covered in infectious disease (virology, bac-T, and parasit). Both curricular styles accomplish the same objective- training students to think about clinical problems in a structured manner. That's just how medicine is done. Whether or not you're sourcing the info you need to solve cases independently (PBL) versus lecture, you arrive at the same endpoint. Please note that no sick foal was seen during the above interaction. You got a photo of the lung, some info on the clinical signs, and were sent on your way to solve the case. That is how PBL works.

 

[Ashgirl]

How do you know that PBL is your style of learning? You've never experienced it. You have an idea that it may work for you, but you really can't say for sure until you're there. PBL is not equivalent to hands on learning, in the sense that you actually touch an animal. PBL is a lot of sitting in a room working up simulated cases with a small group under the guidance of a facilitator. Not to knock PBL- I think it's important, and I believe the earlier students are introduced to problem-based veterinary medicine, the better off they are for fourth year and beyond (that being said, traditional lecture has its place as well). You make a point of stating that you learn best by 'doing things hands on.' It's important for you to realize that PBL is not tactile. It's hands on in the sense that you're looking at data, but the case subject is nowhere to be seen. Early PBL in a curriculum is challenging to students because they (we) don't have the background knowledge to begin setting up accurate problem lists. Say, for example, that your prof hands you a photo of a foal's lung that has a bunch of white, splotchy dots on it and provides a bit of history on the foal (respiratory problems, poor doer, etc.). To really work this case PBL style, you need to know the top 4-5 differential diagnoses that would cause this disease presentation in a foal of that age. Looking at the diseased foal doesn't necessarily help you (first, because your prof provided you with the relevant history you need to arrive at the answer) and secondly, you don't have the experience to link clinical signs to pathomechanism.

In a PBL curriculum (folks from Western and Cornell, please chime in here- because this hasn't been my experience), you would need to independently search for what those differentials would be, and match them to the foal's clinical signs (researching all of this information independently in reference materials). What if you miss something? You might, because you have no idea what's going on a lot of the time. In a traditional curriculum, you would have had classes on infectious disease, so may remember a few of the foal respiratory diseases that would match the subject's pattern. You'll also have to do a bunch of research/review here because you'll never remember everything you covered in infectious disease (virology, bac-T, and parasit). Both curricular styles accomplish the same objective- training students to think about clinical problems in a structured manner. That's just how medicine is done. Whether or not you're sourcing the info you need to solve cases independently (PBL) versus lecture, you arrive at the same endpoint. Please note that no sick foal was seen during the above interaction. You got a photo of the lung, some info on the clinical signs, and were sent on your way to solve the case. That is how PBL works.

This is a really important point that I feel like a lot of people may not realize. For me at least, every time we would be asked something we haven't covered yet it would be frustrating because I didn't know what was going on or even how to start. Another thing that's important to know is that even though a curriculum might be completely traditional, you'll probably get some problem-based learning in there! For example, in my completely traditional curriculum, in first year we would have tons of clinical correlates to pull together what we were learning in physiology, anatomy, etc. In second year, half of an entire class was going over cases (Clinical pathology), and they are continuing going over cases in Tox and Companion Animal Med, so you still get exposure to a problem-based style regardless.

 

[jaime244]

Does PBL at every school mean small group learning is included or is that just at some schools like cornell? I think someone in this thread PBL should be way on the list of considerations when choosing a vet school but how can that be true? I feel like it's sUch a different way of learning. It would keep my interest because it is applied

 

[dyachei]

Does PBL at every school mean small group learning is included or is that just at some schools like cornell? I think someone in this thread PBL should be way on the list of considerations when choosing a vet school but how can that be true? I feel like it's sUch a different way of learning. It would keep my interest because it is applied

some schools do it this way, even if mostly traditional.

For instance, at UTK we had ABLEs 1-3 times a semester (for a week each time). These were small groups with facilitators.

In our other traditional classes we still used problem based learning to work through cases (particularly in clin path). However, I wouldn't list UTK as a "PBL school"

 

[twelvetigers]

ABLEs

Activity Based Learning Exercises?

Just harboring a guess.

I feel like the only straight up legit PBL school is Western. The rest just use it to season the normal curriculum.

 

[DVMDream]

How do you know that PBL is your style of learning? You've never experienced it. You have an idea that it may work for you, but you really can't say for sure until you're there. PBL is not equivalent to hands on learning, in the sense that you actually touch an animal. PBL is a lot of sitting in a room working up simulated cases with a small group under the guidance of a facilitator. Not to knock PBL- I think it's important, and I believe the earlier students are introduced to problem-based veterinary medicine, the better off they are for fourth year and beyond (that being said, traditional lecture has its place as well). You make a point of stating that you learn best by 'doing things hands on.' It's important for you to realize that PBL is not tactile. It's hands on in the sense that you're looking at data, but the case subject is nowhere to be seen. Early PBL in a curriculum is challenging to students because they (we) don't have the background knowledge to begin setting up accurate problem lists. Say, for example, that your prof hands you a photo of a foal's lung that has a bunch of white, splotchy dots on it and provides a bit of history on the foal (respiratory problems, poor doer, etc.). To really work this case PBL style, you need to know the top 4-5 differential diagnoses that would cause this disease presentation in a foal of that age. Looking at the diseased foal doesn't necessarily help you (first, because your prof provided you with the relevant history you need to arrive at the answer) and secondly, you don't have the experience to link clinical signs to pathomechanism.

In a PBL curriculum (folks from Western and Cornell, please chime in here- because this hasn't been my experience), you would need to independently search for what those differentials would be, and match them to the foal's clinical signs (researching all of this information independently in reference materials). What if you miss something? You might, because you have no idea what's going on a lot of the time. In a traditional curriculum, you would have had classes on infectious disease, so may remember a few of the foal respiratory diseases that would match the subject's pattern. You'll also have to do a bunch of research/review here because you'll never remember everything you covered in infectious disease (virology, bac-T, and parasit). Both curricular styles accomplish the same objective- training students to think about clinical problems in a structured manner. That's just how medicine is done. Whether or not you're sourcing the info you need to solve cases independently (PBL) versus lecture, you arrive at the same endpoint. Please note that no sick foal was seen during the above interaction. You got a photo of the lung, some info on the clinical signs, and were sent on your way to solve the case. That is how PBL works.

I was going to respond with this, but didn't have time. This is exactly what I wanted to say but better than I could say it. Thanks.

 

[dyachei]

ABLEs

Activity Based Learning Exercises?

Just harboring a guess.

I feel like the only straight up legit PBL school is Western. The rest just use it to season the normal curriculum.

I think that's what it was for.No wait. Application Based Learning Exercises

But regardless, I think having a foundation before those exercises was a lot more valuable (to me). And it did help cement how to work through cases. I just wouldn't want all learning to be in that style.

 

[twelvetigers]

I think that's what it was for.No wait. Application Based Learning Exercises

But regardless, I think having a foundation before those exercises was a lot more valuable (to me). And it did help cement how to work through cases. I just wouldn't want all learning to be in that style.

I was close! And I agree on the latter. No way that 100% PBL wouldn't bug the crap out of me. A combo sounds nice, though.