PBL Schools

[deleted498041]

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I was close! And I agree on the latter. No way that 100% PBL wouldn't bug the crap out of me. A combo sounds nice, though.

Can confirm. 100% PBL bugged the crap out of me towards the end. A lot of my classmates feel the same. Regardless of what you think you want and will thrive with going into vet school, you'll surprise yourself.

 

[Cyndia]

This is a really important point that I feel like a lot of people may not realize. For me at least, every time we would be asked something we haven't covered yet it would be frustrating because I didn't know what was going on or even how to start. Another thing that's important to know is that even though a curriculum might be completely traditional, you'll probably get some problem-based learning in there! For example, in my completely traditional curriculum, in first year we would have tons of clinical correlates to pull together what we were learning in physiology, anatomy, etc. In second year, half of an entire class was going over cases (Clinical pathology), and they are continuing going over cases in Tox and Companion Animal Med, so you still get exposure to a problem-based style regardless.

This. My masters had several PBL sessions throughout the course and they frustrated me to no end. Once in a while it was okay if I was somewhat familiar with the topic, but mostly I just hated feeling lost/felt like I wasted time trying to figure out some things that could have been easily explained. Lecture based learning sucks sometimes too, but I prefer having it all laid out for me. Especially since in pretty much all of our classes we have clinical correlate lectures/case discussion lectures, so we do get a little bit of that style of learning. It's somewhat interactive in that they do call on people, just not in a small group setting.

 

[Lab Vet]

Does PBL at every school mean small group learning is included or is that just at some schools like cornell? I think someone in this thread PBL should be way on the list of considerations when choosing a vet school but how can that be true? I feel like it's sUch a different way of learning. It would keep my interest because it is applied

NCSU is ALL about the small groups. You're in small groups for many classes- anatomy (that's true of every vet school), PBL, Clin Path, Communications, etc. PBL certainly is a different style of learning. Regardless of the vet school you attend, you WILL get exposure to PBL. How do I know this (given that I've only attended one vet school)? Because the whole point of PBL is to teach students HOW to think about cases. That's what being a doctor is. It's not really about the conditions that are discussed (you'll get that information in your medicine and other classes). Students need to learn how to approach cases, and there is a very specific way that doctors (human and animal) do this. You can't become a veterinarian without learning to problem solve- period. Whether your school is 100% PBL (i.e. Western- no traditional lecture at all), NCSU (traditional lecture, where full courses in PBL are taught every year of the pre-clinical curriculum- in some years, both semesters), or another great vet school (they're all great, in their own right), you will be taught the problem-oriented approach. It wouldn't be veterinary school without it. When you're visiting schools (and PBL is important to you- it certainly seems to be a major point of discussion for folks here), ask current students what their opinion of PBL is. Just be mindful that PBL can be tough- especially in the beginning (as well as towards the end, because cases get more complicated). You just don't have the knowledge base to apply the problem-oriented approach effectively and efficiently. Researching case information takes inordinate amounts of time- time that you don't have, because that anatomy, path, medicine, etc. exam is looming very close on the horizon. It's a great system. I quite enjoy PBL, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't frustrate me. PBL quickly points out how little you actually know, and how far you have to go. I will say this- it's incredibly satisfying to solve cases successfully. I recall an exam I had last semester where one of the 'questions' was a full case work-up. I was pleased as punch that I got the answer correct. I could not have done that as a first year, and it's nice to see your own progress in a tangible way.

 

[Lab Vet]

I was going to respond with this, but didn't have time. This is exactly what I wanted to say but better than I could say it. Thanks. 🙂

I got your back 😉

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Florida is not a PBL school. Classes are mostly lecture/lab based and is typically broken up by systems. So rather than having an individual physiology class you would have a system class, such as renal, digestion, cardio, etc., and then learn about the anatomy, physiology, histology and embryology for each system. In addition each class typically will have clinical correlate lectures that will run through clinically relevant cases that pertain to the system you are studying, however these are not PBL classes. You do have a lot of hands on experience though through anatomy and clinical skills labs, in addition to labs in other courses. You also have a lot of exposure to different specialties and are able to participate in a wide variety of wetlabs and volunteer in zoo med, and different on call programs such as colic team and small animal surgery. I'm a very hands on type of learner and feel like I learn just fine based on the curriculum set up. What I like most is that you go into clinics a year earlier than most, so you actually start in May of your second year and will continue until December of third year. Then you'll be in classes until December of fourth year, which is great for studying for NAVLE, and then you are back on clinics until graduation. You are also given the summer between third and fourth year to do externships if you choose not to do any during your vacation blocks while on clinics.

This is great information, thank you!

 

[VetMedVetMed]

How do you know that PBL is your style of learning? You've never experienced it. You have an idea that it may work for you, but you really can't say for sure until you're there. PBL is not equivalent to hands on learning, in the sense that you actually touch an animal. PBL is a lot of sitting in a room working up simulated cases with a small group under the guidance of a facilitator. Not to knock PBL- I think it's important, and I believe the earlier students are introduced to problem-based veterinary medicine, the better off they are for fourth year and beyond (that being said, traditional lecture has its place as well). You make a point of stating that you learn best by 'doing things hands on.' It's important for you to realize that PBL is not tactile. It's hands on in the sense that you're looking at data, but the case subject is nowhere to be seen. Early PBL in a curriculum is challenging to students because they (we) don't have the background knowledge to begin setting up accurate problem lists. Say, for example, that your prof hands you a photo of a foal's lung that has a bunch of white, splotchy dots on it and provides a bit of history on the foal (respiratory problems, poor doer, etc.). To really work this case PBL style, you need to know the top 4-5 differential diagnoses that would cause this disease presentation in a foal of that age. Looking at the diseased foal doesn't necessarily help you (first, because your prof provided you with the relevant history you need to arrive at the answer) and secondly, you don't have the experience to link clinical signs to pathomechanism.

In a PBL curriculum (folks from Western and Cornell, please chime in here- because this hasn't been my experience), you would need to independently search for what those differentials would be, and match them to the foal's clinical signs (researching all of this information independently in reference materials). What if you miss something? You might, because you have no idea what's going on a lot of the time. In a traditional curriculum, you would have had classes on infectious disease, so may remember a few of the foal respiratory diseases that would match the subject's pattern. You'll also have to do a bunch of research/review here because you'll never remember everything you covered in infectious disease (virology, bac-T, and parasit). Both curricular styles accomplish the same objective- training students to think about clinical problems in a structured manner. That's just how medicine is done. Whether or not you're sourcing the info you need to solve cases independently (PBL) versus lecture, you arrive at the same endpoint. Please note that no sick foal was seen during the above interaction. You got a photo of the lung, some info on the clinical signs, and were sent on your way to solve the case. That is how PBL works.

Thanks everyone first off for all of this information and your input.

So I am not in school yet and have not been in a typical PBL setting yet at vet school, but I have experienced it somewhat way more than any other person probably would have prior to applying to vet school. I've been taught the pbl way of thinking and doing for several years now because of my job (from my boss who is a teacher at a PBL school). That is how I've learned and how I've been trained here. It's been that way since the beginning, which is not traditional in tech jobs. So needless to say I have some experiencd with it. That's what I wanted to know what other schools incorporate PBL and more hands on experience than schools with majority being lecture-based. I'm not saying I know how PBL is totally, but I'm lucky enough to have already been shown a glimpse of it personally .

Thanks everyone for your help so far!

 

[m24ca]

I figure that I'll drop in my .02.

My girlfriend is at a medical school that incorporates PBL pretty heavily, and it hasn't been life changing for her in terms of learning the material or retention. Some of the cases are neat, but she doesn't feel that she has gotten a ton out of it. Problem solving is problem solving, whether it's corporate finance or medicine, and if you already have well established critical thinking skills and some clinical experience prior to vet school, then you have the necessary problem solving skills and context to successfully apply what you learn in didactic classes.

Edit- Systems based on the other hand

 

[Minnerbelle]

See the problem is, if you do PBL occasionally for a small amount of material to learn like one or two concepts then it's kind of neat and fun. Like it's great to do a PBL case on something like a diabetic ketoacidosis case where you could talk for hours and hours about everything you need to know about it

But it's not so neat and fun when you have an almost impossible amount of information to decipher and memorize like there's no tomorrow. That's when the inefficiency of things get really really annoying.


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[pp9]

I figure that I'll drop in my .02.

My girlfriend is at a medical school that incorporates PBL pretty heavily, and it hasn't been life changing for her in terms of learning the material or retention. Some of the cases are neat, but she doesn't feel that she has gotten a ton out of it. Problem solving is problem solving, whether it's corporate finance or medicine, and if you already have well established critical thinking skills and some clinical experience prior to vet school, then you have the necessary problem solving skills and context to successfully apply what you learn in didactic classes.

Edit- Systems based on the other hand

We do systems-based learning here, more or less. Every subject is on the same track with the material we're covering. We're on GI now, so that's GI in anatomy, physio, histo, neuro, etc. Not all schools do that, and I feel this has made a noticeable difference in how I'm retaining and learning. Everything ties in really nicely. Integrated courses are probably worth more than PBL in my opinion.

 

[orca2011]

We do systems-based learning here, more or less. Every subject is on the same track with the material we're covering. We're on GI now, so that's GI in anatomy, physio, histo, neuro, etc. Not all schools do that, and I feel this has made a noticeable difference in how I'm retaining and learning. Everything ties in really nicely. Integrated courses are probably worth more than PBL in my opinion.

I wish we did things more systems based here. The only class that we do that way is Med/Surg 1-3. I think it would have been super helpful to do anatomy, phys and histo that way too.

 

[pp9]

I wish we did things more systems based here. The only class that we do that way is Med/Surg 1-3. I think it would have been super helpful to do anatomy, phys and histo that way too.

It's all I know, obviously, but it seems to be less stressful compared to descriptions from friends in other schools. Again, I really like it! It's nice to hear about what we learned in histo the other day, but in physio. Reinforces a lot of concepts and makes you keep everything in the forefront of your mind.

 

[JJ1019]

I was close! And I agree on the latter. No way that 100% PBL wouldn't bug the crap out of me. A combo sounds nice, though.

I'm a hands on learner and all small group project stuff would drive me crazy. I want to learn the material first then be given the opportunity to apply it to a real case. People work and learn at different paces. Not all students pull equal weight. I think I'd hate all PBL. I like the idea of lecture learning followed by application. To me this is like in HS physics where the teacher taught theory about simple machines (levers, screws, inclined planes) then later asked you to build a machine to accomplish a task using what you had learned. Learn the theory, study it, then within a group learn to apply the knowledge to the real world.

To me, PBL is more like being handed the materials and told to build a machine to accomplish the task and you having to research about all the simple machines (maybe not even knowing what they all are and missing one) then building from what info you gathered. If the one you missed is the key to getting the job done then oops! Is this a fair assesment?

 

[jaime244]

At least at Cornell, in a small group, there is a tutor guide who is supposed to make sure the group is going in the right direction and hits all of the important points. But I can't remember if the tutor guide (faculty member) will tell you if you make an error in thinking something. I vaguely remember them saying they wouldn't tell you if you were messed something up though...

 

[pp9]

PBL people-so do your grades on these assignments/group projects revolve around whether or not you diagnose correctly? Or is it less diagnosis-oriented and moreso trying to turn you into a critical thinker? Our PBL class is mostly the latter....what we end up diagnosing isn't the main point.

 

[dyachei]

PBL people-so do your grades on these assignments/group projects revolve around whether or not you diagnose correctly? Or is it less diagnosis-oriented and moreso trying to turn you into a critical thinker? Our PBL class is mostly the latter....what we end up diagnosing isn't the main point.

For our PBL stuff at UTK, they were more pass/fail and getting it right was less important.

 

[pp9]

For our PBL stuff at UTK, they were more pass/fail and getting it right was less important.

Makes sense. Our PBL is just a course with lectures a few writing assignments that end up padding our grades if you put time into them. I don't mind it, it just isn't executed that well here. If they revamped it a bit, it would be even more beneficial.

 

[rockatiel]

I remember being caught up with PBL like so many other pre vets are at times. I think the draw is the uniqueness of the learning style? Like "this is the way to go to be the best vet I can be, a traditional cirriculum won't do". I think maybe if you were a part of some gifted program growing up (as I was) you go into the rest of your life thinking a traditional cirriculum just won't suit you. But it makes me giggle because I think so many of us forget that many great vets before our time are amazing problem solvers and critical thinkers--and they had a mostly traditional cirriculum! It's part of the job to solve problems with indirect solutions. PBL is just a stab at teaching it. Doesn't necessarily mean it's better 100% of the time.

I think 100% PBL would bug me too, but I wouldn't mind a dash of it.

 

[Lab Vet]

PBL people-so do your grades on these assignments/group projects revolve around whether or not you diagnose correctly? Or is it less diagnosis-oriented and moreso trying to turn you into a critical thinker? Our PBL class is mostly the latter....what we end up diagnosing isn't the main point.

I really like the way NCSU does PBL. I'm not saying that just because I attend this particular school, I actually think it's very effective. In year 1, students have two full courses in PBL (one first semester, one second). In yr 1, sm 1, students are introduced to the concept of problem-oriented veterinary medicine [its parameters and power]. Instructors explain the SOAP process, and emphasize how important it is for clinicians to SOAP problems, not patients. Hence, you can't effectively work-up a case unless you can A) correctly ID problems and B) list appropriate DDx for each problem identified. After explaining the problem-oriented approach from start to finish (Signalment -> Hx -> CC -> PE -> Problem list -> Dx plan -> Tx plan), students work in small groups to solve video cases (low-hanging fruit, easy diagnoses) using said approach. In second semester, students again are broken into [different] small groups to work-up specific cases associated with infectious disease along with the help of a facilitator. 7-8 cases are discussed throughout the course of the semester, and students are assigned 'learning objectives' to research/review at each point of the process. Students go to the board and, very deliberately, walk the case through the problem-oriented approach. There were two exams in this class [in addition to the cases]. The first dealt with diagnostic techniques (i.e. virus isolation, PCR, PARR, flow, etc.) and the second focused on disease biology/diagnostic process. In yr 2, students have two classes the first semester that focus on clinical reasoning and PBL. The PBL course this semester is awesome- it's a 'choose your own adventure,' web-based interface that allows students complete autonomy to guide the case work-up (again, small group). There are dead-ends and correct answers. Your facilitators give you a budget (along with the prices of different tests), and you must stay within that set limit to get full credit for the case. Again, 7-8 cases are presented throughout the course of the class. The final exam was a combination of disease biology and case work-up. You had to correctly solve the case in an efficient manner to receive full credit. Also sm 1, yr 2, NCSU runs a class in 'Decision Making.' This course focuses on system 1 vs. system 2 thinking in veterinary medicine, and how to avoid errors in case management. I've really enjoyed PBL, and think that NCSU does it well.

I guess that's a long winded answer to your original question- we are assessed on both process AND result, combined with the constraints of price and time. The cases (and constraints) move closer to real life with each passing year in the curriculum. The cases also become more complex as students progress. I haven't yet experienced third year, but can update you when I do.

 

[Lab Vet]

At least at Cornell, in a small group, there is a tutor guide who is supposed to make sure the group is going in the right direction and hits all of the important points. But I can't remember if the tutor guide (faculty member) will tell you if you make an error in thinking something. I vaguely remember them saying they wouldn't tell you if you were messed something up though...

They tend to give you sufficient rope to 'hang yourself,' and let you struggle for a while before deliberately interjecting to change the group's direction. I'm personally a big fan of this approach, as folks learn much more when they make mistakes independently as opposed to being spoon fed the answers to questions in the absence of an initial struggle.

 

[Lab Vet]

I'm a hands on learner and all small group project stuff would drive me crazy. I want to learn the material first then be given the opportunity to apply it to a real case. People work and learn at different paces. Not all students pull equal weight. I think I'd hate all PBL. I like the idea of lecture learning followed by application. To me this is like in HS physics where the teacher taught theory about simple machines (levers, screws, inclined planes) then later asked you to build a machine to accomplish a task using what you had learned. Learn the theory, study it, then within a group learn to apply the knowledge to the real world.

To me, PBL is more like being handed the materials and told to build a machine to accomplish the task and you having to research about all the simple machines (maybe not even knowing what they all are and missing one) then building from what info you gathered. If the one you missed is the key to getting the job done then oops! Is this a fair assesment?

You're going to have to learn to like group work. Veterinary school is chock-full of it- from your very first day all the way through clinics.

 

[Minnerbelle]

That person that ends up with the learning issue "causes of vomiting"... It's rough man.


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[DVMDream]

That person that ends up with the learning issue "causes of vomiting"... It's rough man.


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They'd better be ready to present a book.

 

[JJ1019]

You're going to have to learn to like group work. Veterinary school is chock-full of it- from your very first day all the way through clinics.

I really get sick of hearing this...life is full of group work. Vet med isn't unique. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it 24/7, especially when people aren't pulling their weight.

 

[battie]

I really get sick of hearing this...life is full of group work. Vet med isn't unique. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it 24/7, especially when people aren't pulling their weight.

No one said you'll have to like it 24/7. You'll just at the least get used to the consistency with which it will occur.

 

[Lab Vet]

I really get sick of hearing this...life is full of group work. Vet med isn't unique. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it 24/7, especially when people aren't pulling their weight.

I agree- completely. I only mention it because I struggle with this as well. When I said NCSU is all about group work- I meant it. Multiple times a day, every day. This part of vet school was a major adjustment for me. I often don't enjoy it, so I suppose that I haven't followed the advice I listed above.

 

[dyachei]

I really get sick of hearing this...life is full of group work. Vet med isn't unique. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it 24/7, especially when people aren't pulling their weight.

people aren't going to pull their weight in vet school, too.

You don't have to enjoy it, but you probably should do it with somewhat of a smile because your attitude matters to those that grade you.

 

[deleted498041]

That person that ends up with the learning issue "causes of vomiting"... It's rough man.


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God, that happened a lot.
"Causes of heart murmurs," "causes of sudden death in cattle," "causes of diarrhea." Then our facilitator would say, "how could you further refine that?" Oh, how about causes of diarrhea in neonates. Yes, much, much easier.

 

[DVMDream]

Oh, how about causes of diarrhea in neonates.

And just when you thought "causes of diarrhea" couldn't get any worse...

 

[JJ1019]

I agree- completely. I only mention it because I struggle with this as well. When I said NCSU is all about group work- I meant it. Multiple times a day, every day. This part of vet school was a major adjustment for me. I often don't enjoy it, so I suppose that I haven't followed the advice I listed above.

This makes me much less excited.... I don't mind working with others who pull their weight and when we have the same goal for product delivery. Group work for anatomy, labs, or stuff like that I kinda like. It helps me to talk it out with others and make sure I understand it as its happening.

 

[jaime244]

Maybe I already know the answer to this question...but I just wanted to get some advice/other opinions. So, I'm concerned about the lecture learning in vet school (vs PBL). In college, all of the classes were lectures and I always got really sleepy and bored during the lectures. This might sound ridiculous but the only way I could stay awake was by being on my cell phone like looking random things up or texting. I never actually fell asleep because I just am not the kind of person who can fall asleep in public. So, lectures were actually painful for me. I would say that I really did not enjoy the classes in college. I was however very excited to actually see the application of concepts in my research lab and in the vet hospital. Now, of course, I wouldn't do the texting during class in vet school because it is...rude. In addition to the sleepiness during lectures, 1.5 years after college now, I really truly feel as if I've forgetten nearly everything. I actually even felt that way immediately after a test. Maybe because my course load was really heavy as a double major, the classes were more stressful than enjoyable and handle-able. But I wasn't like...irresponsible and cramming all the time.

Anyway, now I got into a PBL school and a lecture based school. I am worried about the lecture based school--will the lectures be painful as they were in undergrad? I am worried about enjoying vet school and also retaining the information via lecture learning because I feel like PBL is good for long-term learning. Are there any people out there that felt similar about lectures in undergrad but now feel totally different about lecture learning in vet school? Maybe because you have hands on stuff in vet school, the application makes the theoretical lectures more interesting.

 

[twelvetigers]

You will hate lectures some days. Maybe even most days.

You will probably also hate PBL some days. If not most days.

I would suggest looking at Facebook and online shopping with your computer instead - you won't be alone.

But seriously, if a school has a lecture capture service, that can be a life saver for days where you just can't. The rest of the time, you either caffeinate thoroughly and try your best to follow, or you give up and dick around on the internet with a resolve to learn it later.

 

[Ashgirl]

Maybe I already know the answer to this question...but I just wanted to get some advice/other opinions. So, I'm concerned about the lecture learning in vet school (vs PBL). In college, all of the classes were lectures and I always got really sleepy and bored during the lectures. This might sound ridiculous but the only way I could stay awake was by being on my cell phone like looking random things up or texting. I never actually fell asleep because I just am not the kind of person who can fall asleep in public. So, lectures were actually painful for me. I would say that I really did not enjoy the classes in college. I was however very excited to actually see the application of concepts in my research lab and in the vet hospital. Now, of course, I wouldn't do the texting during class in vet school because it is...rude. In addition to the sleepiness during lectures, 1.5 years after college now, I really truly feel as if I've forgetten nearly everything. I actually even felt that way immediately after a test. Maybe because my course load was really heavy as a double major, the classes were more stressful than enjoyable and handle-able. But I wasn't like...irresponsible and cramming all the time.

Anyway, now I got into a PBL school and a lecture based school. I am worried about the lecture based school--will the lectures be painful as they were in undergrad? I am worried about enjoying vet school and also retaining the information via lecture learning because I feel like PBL is good for long-term learning. Are there any people out there that felt similar about lectures in undergrad but now feel totally different about lecture learning in vet school? Maybe because you have hands on stuff in vet school, the application makes the theoretical lectures more interesting.

I hate to be that person... but which school is cheaper for you? Each one will make you a competent vet, and really, I think PBL versus traditional is pretty minimal, but 200,000 versus 350,000? That's much more significant in my mind.

Honestly, there are things that you will hate and love about both systems. For me, most days I tolerate lecture, some days I hate it, and other days I like it. The good news is the information is all there, so if you want to study it on your own pace you can totally do that. For PBL, sure you get to work out cases, but if you are doing cases day one..... to me that would be super stressful because 1) you don't know anything and 2) how would you know where to look to find that information?

Regardless of the system, there will be things you don't want to learn about, and there will be things you drag your feet to learn. Both have insane amounts of information, it's just a different way of presenting it.

 

[deleted498041]

I hate to be that person... but which school is cheaper for you? Each one will make you a competent vet, and really, I think PBL versus traditional is pretty minimal, but 200,000 versus 350,000? That's much more significant in my mind.

Be that person! We should all be that person. Money should be your number one determinant for choosing a school, not this PBL vs lecture debate that seems to come up time and time again.

 

[missdarjeeling]

Well, honestly, the people weighing these things are likely past the point of considering the money and are looking for other pros and cons to help them make the choice. Not all of us are in a situation where picking the cheapest school is the obvious, easy, you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-not-to choice. Life can be complicated.

 

[deleted498041]

Well, honestly, the people weighing these things are likely past the point of considering the money and are looking for other pros and cons to help them make the choice. Not all of us are in a situation where picking the cheapest school is the obvious, easy, you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-not-to choice. Life can be complicated.

I dunno, I've had a bunch of people message me asking about Western in the last couples months and I'd say about 70% of them tell me that they don't want to include money in their decision.

 

[DVMDream]

Well, honestly, the people weighing these things are likely past the point of considering the money and are looking for other pros and cons to help them make the choice. Not all of us are in a situation where picking the cheapest school is the obvious, easy, you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-not-to choice. Life can be complicated.

Heck even if you are a millionaire, money should still be considered. Who wants to pay $150,000 more for something that can be obtained (and obtained well) for $150,000 less? You are paying for a DVM degree, the method in which you are taught veterinary medicine, really, really is not as important as people seem to think. 99% of the people posting on these forums are used to lecture-based learning, if you can get through undergrad and be accepted to veterinary school in lecture-based learning, you can survive veterinary school that is mostly lectures with occasional PBL thrown in. Once you are in vet school, the last thing you are going to care about or even think about is "damn, I wonder what PBL only would be like?" You just aren't. You will be worried about passing anatomy, not thinking about if the grass is greener on the "other" side, you won't have time for it. You are going to spend so much time just cramming info into your head and hoping you have somehow memorized something and nothing has bled out of your ears that the thought of even caring about PBL vs. lecture will be laughable once you are in vet school.

 

[orca2011]

Maybe I already know the answer to this question...but I just wanted to get some advice/other opinions. So, I'm concerned about the lecture learning in vet school (vs PBL). In college, all of the classes were lectures and I always got really sleepy and bored during the lectures. This might sound ridiculous but the only way I could stay awake was by being on my cell phone like looking random things up or texting. I never actually fell asleep because I just am not the kind of person who can fall asleep in public. So, lectures were actually painful for me. I would say that I really did not enjoy the classes in college. I was however very excited to actually see the application of concepts in my research lab and in the vet hospital. Now, of course, I wouldn't do the texting during class in vet school because it is...rude. In addition to the sleepiness during lectures, 1.5 years after college now, I really truly feel as if I've forgetten nearly everything. I actually even felt that way immediately after a test. Maybe because my course load was really heavy as a double major, the classes were more stressful than enjoyable and handle-able. But I wasn't like...irresponsible and cramming all the time.

Anyway, now I got into a PBL school and a lecture based school. I am worried about the lecture based school--will the lectures be painful as they were in undergrad? I am worried about enjoying vet school and also retaining the information via lecture learning because I feel like PBL is good for long-term learning. Are there any people out there that felt similar about lectures in undergrad but now feel totally different about lecture learning in vet school? Maybe because you have hands on stuff in vet school, the application makes the theoretical lectures more interesting.

So I'm fairly similar to you. I can fall asleep pretty much anywhere and I struggled through probably most of my first year and parts of second year classes. And this happened in undergrad and all through high school as well. I've been evaluated for anemia and hypothyroidism for potential causes of my excessive tiredness and those have always been fine.

However in many of the situations it was entirely dependent on the professor teaching. If they can make it fun and exciting, I'm more likely to pay attention. I think first year was difficult because we have more professors involved in research teaching, so it gets to some of the nit picky details that I just don't care about. Also, during those classes, it can sometimes be hard to see the clinical picture associated with what they're talking about. So I often found that I would end up on facebook, or playing games, etc. It became easier in the later years as we had more clinicians teaching us and I feel like they're a little better at communicating and not just reading off slides (not always the case). I do sometimes still even have issues on clinicis where it becomes difficult to stay awake and focus in rounds or similar other small group conversatiosn.

I will say that my ability to pay attention increased when I started handwriting my notes on my tablet or when I relistened to lectures at home because I could tune out outside distractions and usually just focus on what I was doing.

 

[missdarjeeling]

I dunno, I've had a bunch of people message me asking about Western in the last couples months and I'd say about 70% of them tell me that they don't want to include money in their decision.

I think we can all agree that it's foolish and short-sighted to not include money at all in your decision unless you're independently wealthy. But that's not what I'm talking about.

Heck even if you are a millionaire, money should still be considered.

I'm not saying money shouldn't be considered. I'm pointing out that people's circumstances are different, and there very well may be situations in which money isn't the absolute deciding factor, in which case you move on to other factors to help you decide. Just as an example, my husband and I are certainly weighing the money, but we've also got our marriage, our home, aging parents, a stepdaughter who lives in another state, and his career to consider, so there's a lot more to think about, and there's no straightforward, obvious answer. The cheapest school for me happens to be the most difficult to manage when considering all of the other sh-t we have to worry about, so, no, I can't make this decision based only on money. And although prospectives like me are in the tiny minority, we do exist and we're not all failing to understand the weight of student loan debt. As long as people are aware of the financial consequences, I don't see what the problem is in discussing the other differences between schools. Yes, those differences will likely end up being pretty minor in the long run, but it's normal to expect someone making such a big decision to take that approach as they work their way down the list of possible pros and cons.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm not saying money shouldn't be considered. I'm pointing out that people's circumstances are different, and there very well may be situations in which money isn't the absolute deciding factor, in which case you move on to other factors to help you decide. Just as an example, my husband and I are certainly weighing the money, but we've also got our marriage, our home, aging parents, a stepdaughter who lives in another state, and his career to consider, so there's a lot more to think about, and there's no straightforward, obvious answer. The cheapest school for me happens to be the most difficult to manage when considering all of the other sh-t we have to worry about, so, no, I can't make this decision based only on money. And although prospectives like me are in the tiny minority, we do exist and we're not all failing to understand the weight of student loan debt. As long as people are aware of the financial consequences, I don't see what the problem is in discussing the other differences between schools. Yes, those differences will likely end up being pretty minor in the long run, but it's normal to expect someone making such a big decision to take that approach as they work their way down the list of possible pros and cons.

We aren't discussing the above situations in this thread. We are discussing picking between PBL style of teaching and lecture based teaching as a reason for paying an extra 150K for a degree. Please don't start with the long story about "other" things to consider. I am well aware there are other things to consider like you mentioned above that would have someone going to not the cheapest school, believe me, we get it. But this thread is specifically about PBL vs. lecture, not about "all the possible things one can consider in choosing a vet school."

 

[rockatiel]

I see it as a difference between factors when choosing a school (I.e. Perks outside of tuition, such as marginally better coverage in an area or slightly varied teaching methods) that shouldn't matter next to tuition or necessary things related to location (school districts, jobs for SO, all of that) if you're me and you're dependent on parents for the most part and fresh out of UG, it's much more practical to NOT base a decision on lecture vs. PBL or any of those "factors". Actually it wouldn't be practical at all for anyone to do that. So no, lecture vs. PBL isn't a justified choice-making tool compared to the necessary things @missdarjeeling is mentioning. It's apples to oranges.

Though, I think I maybe understand what she is saying. If your location choice is tied to an option of 3 OOS schools, then maybe you can choose based on program. But more often than not that is not everyone on this forum's situation. A lot are like me, just placing priority on the wrong things when choosing a school.

 

[jaime244]

Thankso orca on the penn specific details. I understand cost is a big factor. I'm IS for cornell and got into penn. According to my own Calculations, the difference is 50k for the 4 years when I take into account a car. People may disagree with that but that's just what I've calculated. I know people say what about interest? But I'm lucky and my parents say they have a plan to pay it all off as I'm in school. Of course I do feel bad I don't want them to take money away from their retirement. However, my mom strongly wants me to go to Penn bc of family reasons.

Maybe pbl vs lecture doesn't matter that much or I will realize this later. I know I could get good grades in either setting. But don't I want to enjoy vet school? Loving it will make me love the career even more. So that is why I ask... also it's hard for me to understand how I would be a good vet if I don't have good long term memory via memorization? Or as good compared to if I learned via pbl

 

[dyachei]

But don't I want to enjoy vet school? Loving it will make me love the career even more. So that is why I ask... also it's hard for me to understand how I would be a good vet if I don't have good long term memory via memorization? Or as good compared to if I learned via pbl

I don't think PBL will make you enjoy vet school more. Just putting that out there. It's a lot different when you live it day by day. It was just as easy to be bored during our PBL weeks.

 

[rockatiel]

Thankso orca on the penn specific details. I understand cost is a big factor. I'm IS for cornell and got into penn. According to my own Calculations, the difference is 50k for the 4 years when I take into account a car. People may disagree with that but that's just what I've calculated. I know people say what about interest? But I'm lucky and my parents say they have a plan to pay it all off as I'm in school. Of course I do feel bad I don't want them to take money away from their retirement. However, my mom strongly wants me to go to Penn bc of family reasons.

Maybe pbl vs lecture doesn't matter that much or I will realize this later. I know I could get good grades in either setting. But don't I want to enjoy vet school? Loving it will make me love the career even more. So that is why I ask... also it's hard for me to understand how I would be a good vet if I don't have good long term memory via memorization? Or as good compared to if I learned via pbl

I think you'll enjoy vet school no matter where you go. I think you have a good plan lined up for choosing your school and the debt, but I think teaching style won't be a factor of what you will and won't enjoy. And I think current students will agree with that. As for long term memorization, you can and will learn that skill. It's not like vets will remember everything they're taught. Plenty of situations have popped up in my work where a vet needed to consult VIN or textbooks for something. It's actually much safer to do that than to have blindd confidence you remember that dosage from a certain class in preclinical years I would think. It's a life-long learning process. 🙂

 

[LetItSnow]

Meh. PBL is another fad brought to you by university employees with titles like Assistant Vice President of Education, who have to recommend SOME format change to justify their job. They produce some hazy social science based "studies" that appear to show how it is such an amazing improvement over traditional methods and get a bunch of students to say "yeah, yeah, I really learn better THAT way" and blam - job justification.

20 years from now PBL will be gone and some other new fad will have replaced it. And students all starry-eyed at that latest craze will be talking about how THAT method suits their perceived learning style and how PBL doesn't work for them.

<grump out>


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[DVMDream]

Loving it will make me love the career even more.

Don't compare loving/not loving vet school to if you will love/not love veterinary medicine. The two don't correlate as much as you think. Working as a veterinarian is nothing like what veterinary school is like. You can absolutely despise veterinary school and still love/be in love with veterinary medicine.

 

[Ashgirl]

Don't compare loving/not loving vet school to if you will love/not love veterinary medicine. The two don't correlate as much as you think. Working as a veterinarian is nothing like what veterinary school is like. You can absolutely despise veterinary school and still love/be in love with veterinary medicine.

AMEN.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't think PBL will make you enjoy vet school more. Just putting that out there. It's a lot different when you live it day by day. It was just as easy to be bored during our PBL weeks.

This +1000,0000




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[Minnerbelle]

Meh. PBL is another fad brought to you by university employees with titles like Assistant Vice President of Education, who have to recommend SOME format change to justify their job. They produce some hazy social science based "studies" that appear to show how it is such an amazing improvement over traditional methods and get a bunch of students to say "yeah, yeah, I really learn better THAT way" and blam - job justification.

20 years from now PBL will be gone and some other new fad will have replaced it. And students all starry-eyed at that latest craze will be talking about how THAT method suits their perceived learning style and how PBL doesn't work for them.

<grump out>


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

Maybe it'll be an apprenticeship type thing where you buddy up with a practitioner and learn on the job over 4 years. It'll be called "full immersion" style or something. And the rest is just online.

It would sound so fun and enlightening and hands-on and out of the box or whatever other marketing bull**** descriptors out there. Everyone would learn better that way! (As with all other new teaching methodology, it's probably true if you didn't consider the volume of material you needed to know).


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[twelvetigers]

I think you'll enjoy vet school no matter where you go.

And I think you'll hate vet school no matter where you go. At least a fair amount of the time. Either way, it's pretty irrelevant where you end up. 😉

 

[jaime244]

Thank you all this has been really helpful. This decision is obviously a great one to have to make but has honestly been really difficult as I flip back and forth every week...

To summarize, it seems like many of you are saying pbl vs lecture is not a big factor in your experiences and it seems you come from a mixture of lecture and pbl (small group) learning, not just one. And pbl (small group) is more for enjoyment during school depending on my preference but either teacher style will make me an equally good vet..

Then, do you all recommend weighing pbl less than location as a deciding factor? Cornell has the PBL and yes is cheaper by like 15k a year (my own Calculations you may disagree but as I stated before my parents are paying a good amount and really want me to choose penn) while penn has the great location (I'd see my family and dogs a lot more often). I'm not someone who like needs needs to be in the city but i think I would enjoy it more. And the weather in penn.

Which would you weigh more pbl or location?

If vet school class will be the same everywhere and pbl has gotten monotonous for students. Then it seems to make sense to choose location which will make a difference for me happiness. And give work life balance (I know the life part will be really small in vet school ).