PC or Mac

[kypdurron5]

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They will both be sllllooooowwwwwww for photoshop. It hasn't been re-written for the intel macs, so it has to use an emulator. At the moment, I'm probably not even going to load photoshop on my intel-mac laptop (when I buy it), b/c it will run faster on my current G5 iMac.

That is a ridiculous prediction! Plus, emulation is the wrong word. Photoshop had certain "optimizations" for the G4 and G5 processors, but the versions of Photoshop used on Mac OS are still written FOR Mac OS. That is what Rosetta is all about; it's a different coding format from that "optimized" for the Intel processors, but it is NOT emulation. Emulation is used when something does not run natively....well, photoshop for Mac OS DOES run natively. Thus, certain things previously optimized for G4/G5 processors MAY run slower on the Intel Macs, but you also have to consider that the Intel Macs are much faster than the G4/G5 generation....these two factors could very easily cancel each other out. Lets not forget we may see updates to the current version of Photoshop providing some of these optimizations for SSE2/3 under the Intel chipset.

 

[ND2005]

That is a ridiculous prediction! Plus, emulation is the wrong word. Photoshop had certain "optimizations" for the G4 and G5 processors, but the versions of Photoshop used on Mac OS are still written FOR Mac OS. That is what Rosetta is all about; it's a different coding format from that "optimized" for the Intel processors, but it is NOT emulation. Emulation is used when something does not run natively....well, photoshop for Mac OS DOES run natively. Thus, certain things previously optimized for G4/G5 processors MAY run slower on the Intel Macs, but you also have to consider that the Intel Macs are much faster than the G4/G5 generation....these two factors could very easily cancel each other out. Lets not forget we may see updates to the current version of Photoshop providing some of these optimizations for SSE2/3 under the Intel chipset.

Just look at the benchmarks . Currently, the G4 iBook runs photoshop more quickly than does the new macbook.

I was just being sloppy with my terminology and throwing the blanket "emulation" label on rosetta. Doesn't change the fact that the current intel macs are slow for photoshop

 

[kypdurron5]

Just look at the benchmarks . Currently, the G4 iBook runs photoshop more quickly than does the new macbook.

I was just being sloppy with my terminology and throwing the blanket "emulation" label on rosetta. Doesn't change the fact that the current intel macs are slow for photoshop

Fair enough, but it is important to point out that those tests are based upon 14 scripted tasks. While it's true that the Intel based Macs are taking roughly twice as long, we're still only talking around two and half minutes for a rigorous battery of tests, likely far more than any average user will do in a single picture-editing session. Thus while Intel based Macs may be comparatively slower as of now, I'm still not sure it justifies the rating of "sllllooooowwwwwww." >)

PS- Contgrats on Vandy for 2010, with any luck my April MCAT will be good enough to get me into class of 2011 >).

 

[ND2005]

Thus while Intel based Macs may be comparatively slower as of now, I'm still not sure it justifies the rating of "sllllooooowwwwwww." >)

But if you can't be melodramatic on the internet, where can you??



Thanks for the congrats...good luck with the upcoming apps.

 

[dsq]

I use photoshop on my MBP (1.83 ghz/1 gb ram) for basic photo editing and figure making. It runs plenty fast for these applications and seems to handle large files well.

 

[adiddas125]

I am sure that we wont be able to notice completely the speed differences between the MBP and MB, but surely a noticable one between the G4 and intel Core duo. Maybe for some applications like photo shop. Has anyone ever tried overclocking a mac before? I knowwith dell and other PC suppliers they lock down the FSB from being over clocked.

Its really frustrating because in all the benchmark tests (I finally got handed my mom's inspiron 9300, she used it maybe once a month for 5 months!!!) with dells inspiron 9300 and other laptops they underclock their FSB and GPU. Since this is going to be a desktop replacement for me and for most people, I think that it should be a primary concern for the amount of heat it generates. The Intel i915 chipset running with a Pentium M740 chip is easily overclockable if you do it right, because the native FSB frequency that dell sets it at is 133Mhz, while the intel i915 can go up to 220Mhz.

This overclocking stuff is really interesting stuff. Who needs to work on cars and trucks when you can work on a PC. 🙂

 

[adiddas125]

So just a scouting report... I tried out the Mac Book (black- all stock options) and it seemed to be quite fast. I was told by the mac store rep that the macbook was on for 6 hours straight with constant usuage by interested buyers. The keyboard was pretty cool to the touch. The keyboard itself was an interesting experience. It remindes me of tpying in my #'s on the TI-89 calculator. The buttons are very similar. The glossy screen is quite beautiful. The black finish on the MB is quite beautiful too. I ran windows on it via boot camp, and the system was quite responsive and a joy to use. The speakers produced average laptop sound, nothing fancy. Id plug in my headphones. The laptop was pretty light, but this again was because the battery was removed. Overall a very fun experience. The Macbook pro 15" is quite similar in size to the MB and weighs nearly the same amount (just from a gross approx). The MBP was indeed quite hot though. Maybe a bit too hot. There was no whining sound coming out of the machine. My mac store didnt have the white macbook out for trial, but I am still torn on which machine to get. It is just really really hard to choose!!! 🙄

 

[Jedix123]

You can reclock the Radeon x1400 on the MBP as it seems apple underclocked it. So it's not really overclocking but clocking back to stock.

For reference:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/19/overclock-your-macbookpros-gpu-if-you-dare/

 

[PhysicsDoc]

Anyone know when the Intel-based *desktops* (non-iMac or mini) are supposed to be out? Last I heard was August.

 

[BoogieGnome]

That is a ridiculous prediction! Plus, emulation is the wrong word. Photoshop had certain "optimizations" for the G4 and G5 processors, but the versions of Photoshop used on Mac OS are still written FOR Mac OS. That is what Rosetta is all about; it's a different coding format from that "optimized" for the Intel processors, but it is NOT emulation. Emulation is used when something does not run natively....well, photoshop for Mac OS DOES run natively. Thus, certain things previously optimized for G4/G5 processors MAY run slower on the Intel Macs, but you also have to consider that the Intel Macs are much faster than the G4/G5 generation....these two factors could very easily cancel each other out. Lets not forget we may see updates to the current version of Photoshop providing some of these optimizations for SSE2/3 under the Intel chipset.

Umm, no. If the version of Photoshop was compiled for the G4/G5, there is no way it will run on an intel mac without emulation. This is not about optimization, the G4/G5 and x86 processors have completely different instruction sets, so an intel chip wouldn't know what the heck to do with the binary. The 'optimizations' for a specific processor are generally what makes it difficult to simply recompile a program for a different architecture.

 

[adiddas125]

Umm, no. If the version of Photoshop was compiled for the G4/G5, there is no way it will run on an intel mac without emulation. This is not about optimization, the G4/G5 and x86 processors have completely different instruction sets, so an intel chip wouldn't know what the heck to do with the binary. The 'optimizations' for a specific processor are generally what makes it difficult to simply recompile a program for a different architecture.

So is it safe to say that the current versions of Microsoft office are for PPC Chipsets and when running on the intel based chips they are running under emulation? (Sorry for my ignorance, I dont have much experience in the mac OS area).

I noticed that MS word on MAC OSX Tiger on the Macbook and MBP were quite laggy. I can type around ~100wpm+ and the machines were both playing catchup with my typing. In a sense there was a bit of lag, kinda like when you are trying to play high end online games with a 56k modem. (dont ever try playing quake on a 56K connection )

 

[BoogieGnome]

So is it safe to say that the current versions of Microsoft office are for PPC Chipsets and when running on the intel based chips they are running under emulation? (Sorry for my ignorance, I dont have much experience in the mac OS area).

I noticed that MS word on MAC OSX Tiger on the Macbook and MBP were quite laggy. I can type around ~100wpm+ and the machines were both playing catchup with my typing. In a sense there was a bit of lag, kinda like when you are trying to play high end online games with a 56k modem. (dont ever try playing quake on a 56K connection )

Based on your description, that would be where the smart money is. If word is running slow on a macbook, the only sensible reason is because it isn't running natively.

My knowledge isn't Mac specific, as I don't pay much attention to what they're doing. I just know a lot about OS's in general, because I was the TA in Operating Systems for a quarter when I was an undergrad, and did about 9 months of research in the area (on the linux kernel, to be specific).

 

[GeekDoc]

mac.

 

[wendywellesley]

i went to the new mac store on 5th ave in manhattan the night it opened at 2am. it was after a celebratory meal so i was quite intoxicated but did manage to play on a black mac book.
things that stuck in my mind:
-the keyboard does take some getting used to, it's different than the others. i like the keyboard on the powerbook better, but i'm sure i'll get used to it. adiddas, you are totally right, it does feel like the TI-89!
-again, i agree with adiddas, the glossy screen is really pretty and makes the graphics very life like.
i can't wait to get it!!

 

[dnw826]

Hi All,

Just here to add to the discussion; Just to credential-drop a bit, my undergrad is in Comp Sci and I've extensively used windows laptops as well as the PowerBook G4.

The powerbook is an extremely reliable computer, the operating system rarely stalls, essentially no viruses and it runs pretty smoothly. However, it is plagued by compatibility issues.

There are tons of programs that require windows, esp academic software. Up until now you could have installed virtual windows - but why would anyone want to install an Extra operating system on their computer?? Now they got this new thingy BootCamp which is supposed to solve all compatibility issues right? Nope. Apple's customer service is piss poor as it is, but to make matters worse BootCamp is not customer service supported. So if you got something wrong with it, then you gotta figure it out.

Fact is most software is windows based, ALL networking is windows based, most ppl use windows. So if you're not currently a mac user, no reason to change now. Get yourself a Toshiba or Dell (inspiron 7 series is my pick, best freakin customer service) and if u wanna get stylish go for a sony vaio ( I still have my original vaio from 2002), at least you wont look like the drones of powerbook users. Try to get more than 1.5Ghz process. centrino/pentium M, and at least 1gb of RAM. Get yourself norton antivirus and update it automatically everyday.

However, if you insist on macbookpro/powerbook. I'm not sure how much better the intel chip is than the motorola G4, but I do know that apple will save tons of money going with intel cuz of the sheer amount of chips intel makes, the prices are cheaper. The powerbook is no doubt an awesome notebook, especially with the 1.25gb ram upgrade (which is necessary IMO).

Just a bit of mac history, Apple was in the dumpster until the Ipod which put apple back on the map and scored it some sales in the computer sector as well. The apple II (steve wozniak's invention) was truly a great computer in its era, really what started apple. After that, and up until recently, Macs were a bunch of garbage if you ask me. And anyone who used macs during the late 90's/early 00's will agree. Sorry for such a long post.

My mac in the mid thru late 90's (then we got the G3) was pretty good. It had a lot of problems, though. I am a super computer nerd, and I still couldn't keep up with it's problems. Though my bro's have a G4, I believe, and it's huge (not laptop) but works perfectly, never a problem.

 

[dnw826]

I have a question. My school requires me to have a computer. They (ECU) have a deal with Lenovo and Apple. Will a tablet be easier for organic and such? I am used to Macs, but now we have my husband's POS Dell Dimension 4500 that I really do truly want to set on fire. The Lenovo Tablet X41 is $1699, 12.1" display, 60GB, Windows XP. Or they have the Apple Powerbook for $1571 with 12.1" display, 80GB, Bluetooth, etc. I want a good computer that I can use for web surfing, homework/writing papers, writing notes in class, watching movies on occasion, and that will be ok when I get my IPOD (at the same time). The Tablet doesn't have bluetooth, but the Lenovo Z61 and T60 both do.

I don't do a lot of graphics or anything of the sort. I would prefer a built in camera, or hookups for one, and I need wireless internet availability, as well as a way to plug into my home cable modem. But I do need my computer to be able to burn CD's because otherwise my dh will likely kill me.

It says (for the med school I hope to get into):
Technology Requirements
2006 Minimum Requirements:

Base Configuration Covered by Financial Aid Guidelines for Cost of Attendance:
You now have a choice of one of the two options:

Lenova TabletPC Model x41
Intel Pentium M 1.6 GHz LV Processor, 12.1" TFT active matrix XGA (1024 x 768),1 GB RAM, 60 GB 4200 rpm Hard Drive, Internal 10/100/1000 Ethernet, Internal Intel 802.11 a/b/g, UltraNav Trachpoint, 2-2.0 USB ports, Integrated Intel Video, 56K Modem, XP Tablet PC Edition 2005, Microsoft Office 2003 Professional, 4 Year Warranty+Thinkpad Protection. ThinkPad Protection protects from accidental damage including electrical surges, drops or falls and liquid spills. It protects against many types of damage that are not covered under your system's standard limited warranty. Some examples of the types of accidental damage that will be covered are: Liquid spills on the keyboard, drops or falls, damaged or broken LCD due to a drop or fall, Electrical surge (not covered by standard limited warranty).

**Does not include a CDRW/DVD or DVDRW/CDRW drive as these can be puchased as an additional accessory
BATTERIES HAVE ONLY A ONE-YEAR WARRANTY.

Lenova Model Z61t
Thinkpad Z61t Notebook with Intel Dual Core 1.86 GHz,14 inch WXGA Titanium w/camera, 512 MB RAM, 60 GB 5400 rpm hard drive, Windows XP Professional OS, CD containing Microsoft 2003 Office Professional, internal wireless card (802.11a/b/g) plus bluetooth, internal 56K modem, CDRW/DVD modular drive, primary batter, plus a 4 yr. Depot Warranty +Thinkpad Protection. ThinkPad Protection protects from accidental damage including electrical surges, drops or falls and liquid spills. It protects against many types of damage that are not covered under your system's standard limited warranty. Some examples of the types of accidental damage that will be covered are: Liquid spills on the keyboard, drops or falls, damaged or broken LCD due to a drop or fall, Electrical surge (not covered by standard limited warranty).
BATTERIES HAVE ONLY A ONE-YEAR WARRANTY.

What about these?
http://www.medicaltabletpc.com/content/view/495/29/
http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkontherun/2004/07/sony_u70_review.html

 

[maestro1625]

well skip the powerbook if you're thinking mac. The new macbooks outclass the 12 inch pb at considerably lower price.

 

[kypdurron5]

Umm, no. If the version of Photoshop was compiled for the G4/G5, there is no way it will run on an intel mac without emulation. This is not about optimization, the G4/G5 and x86 processors have completely different instruction sets, so an intel chip wouldn't know what the heck to do with the binary. The 'optimizations' for a specific processor are generally what makes it difficult to simply recompile a program for a different architecture.

Well that's obvious. My point is that there is a difference between emulation and simply converting the instruction set on the fly. That is what Rosetta is all about. When OS 10 first came out you could also emulate classic (OS 9), but that is emulating an entire environment, not simply converting the instruction set of a particular progam that is already native to the OS (just under a different instruction set). In fact, here is a quote directly from Apple's website:

"Here are all the instructions you’ll need: double-click the application icon. Behind the scenes, Rosetta dynamically translates most of your PowerPC-based applications to work with your Intel-based Mac. There’s no emulation. No second-class status. It looks and feels just like it did before. On a Mac, you’d expect nothing less."

Um, booyah.

 

[BoogieGnome]

Well that's obvious. My point is that there is a difference between emulation and simply converting the instruction set on the fly. That is what Rosetta is all about. When OS 10 first came out you could also emulate classic (OS 9), but that is emulating an entire environment, not simply converting the instruction set of a particular progam that is already native to the OS (just under a different instruction set). In fact, here is a quote directly from Apple's website:

"Here are all the instructions you’ll need: double-click the application icon. Behind the scenes, Rosetta dynamically translates most of your PowerPC-based applications to work with your Intel-based Mac. There’s no emulation. No second-class status. It looks and feels just like it did before. On a Mac, you’d expect nothing less."

Um, booyah.

Dynamic conversion of an instruction set is still a form of emulation, albeit not one that is nearly as slow. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_translation.

Using marketing materials is unconvincing, especially to an engineer (ever read Dilbert?). They may want to call it something other than emulation, but a horse by any other name is still a horse.

Also take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software). You'll notice it referenced as an 'emulator'. Granted this is wikipedia, which is hardly a scientific source, but I'd say it is much better than Apple marketing material.

Whatever you want to call it, it's virtually impossible to make a program that wasn't natively compiled run as if it was. Even if the instruction conversion has no overhead, it's highly unlikely that the converted program will be as efficient as if it were natively compiled.

If this (and my previous post) is coming across as me being an ass, sorry about that. Not my intent at all.

 

[kypdurron5]

If this (and my previous post) is coming across as me being an ass, sorry about that. Not my intent at all.

Fair enough. I suppose it all boils down to the exact definition of "emulator," and clearly there are many different views on the subject out there. I prefer reserving emulation for when a legacy environment is simulated under a new environment, rather than when old instruction sets are actually "converted" to a different set on the fly. It's a blurry distinction though. A programmer could do this conversion beforehand and it would definitely be considered a native program, or even a "port" of an old program. On the fly conversion though..... oh well, the debate goes on >). I did not mean to come across as uncivilized either, I was perhaps over-excited when I actually ran across "no emulation" from the source itself >).

 

[MossPoh]

This is some hardcore geek convo going on. 😉 I like the discussion of emulation and rosetta stuff alongside the keys like a ti89 and the pretty screen.

 

[kypdurron5]

This is some hardcore geek convo going on. 😉 I like the discussion of emulation and rosetta stuff alongside the keys like a ti89 and the pretty screen.

I think that's a pretty harsh criticism. Laptop keyboards are notorious for their difficulty, but to have the new MB keyboard compared with a calculator? Ouch. I have no idea whether it is actually deserved or not, but I hope that it is not. I read a PC mag review that did mention the oddity of the keyboard design but that it wasn't strange to actually type on it. I personally don't like the design of the Apple desktop keyboards. Ever since the first iMacs they've gone with a much more "laptop" like design. Even the current desktop keyboard feels more like a laptop keyboard than a full desktop keyboard (albeit a little better). I think that the keyboard, mouse, and monitor are three of the most important computer accessories. After all, those are the top three ways with which you can interface with your computer and with which it can interface with you. Call me a geek but I think a good keyboard and mouse combo is like an extension of your body- it lets you be one with the computer. Or maybe that's just me 😉.

 

[bgtati]

So what type of processor r they using in the ps3?

 

[PurpleHaze]

I also went to the Apple Store on Fifth Ave... it's awesome. I love the way they designed it. But that put aside, I think I'm going to get a Macbook for school. One of the major selling points for me was that it has an iSight built into it already, as well as it's portability and price. I think they could have managed to make it a little bit lighter though (5.2lbs is kind of a lot for a 13.3 inch notebook). I didn't find that that it was hot to the touch (no more than my two year old Sony notebook after running for several hours), and I agree that the keys are kinda weird and TI-89esque. But I like the design and components overall.

 

[Bluntman]

So what type of processor r they using in the ps3?

The "Cell". Here are the wikipedia and arstechnica pages on it if you want.

 

[bgtati]

thanks bluntman/

 

[mocdoc]

I don't think mac's can read a wireless signal though.

Who ever posted this does not know a thing about Macs. They have full wireless and bluetooth ability, and are much easier to set up than PC's.

If you get a mac, you will likely have fewer frustrations and never go back to working in the PEE-CEE world.

 

[medicomel]

Who ever posted this does not know a thing about Macs. They have full wireless and bluetooth ability, and are much easier to set up than PC's.

If you get a mac, you will likely have fewer frustrations and never go back to working in the PEE-CEE world.

yeah, really. the ibook is so mindless to operate, all you do is walk into a place where there's free wireless and the airport connection immediately becomes available. all you have to do is doubleclick on the safari icon and you're ready to go.

 

[Rafa]

When's the new iPod coming out? Before fall? I'm trying to decide whether to buy one now or to hold off until summer's end.

 

[e_phn]

bump 🙂

 

[doctorFred]

new video ipods are due out sometime before this coming holiday season, probably around the same time that apple releases the intel-based pro level desktops to replace the powermac g5. they're rumored to have large video screens that cover the entire device, with a virtual touch-screen wheel that pops up instead of a physical scroll wheel. in any case they're going to be way cool.