PChem as "Advanced" Physics Course

[booji]

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Hi Guys,

I did really well in my high school calc based physics class and on the IB Physics HL exam that my school waived the calc-based physics requirements for my degree. I know that many medical schools expect students to pursue more difficult courses in an area where they recieved "transfer" credit from High School. Unfortunately, at my school, they don't offer anything higher than Physics II calc-based, expect for some engineering classes like structures, circuits, and dynamics. I was wondering if the medical schools will accept Physical Chemistry I and II and/or Advanced Physical Chemistry as suitable "advanced" physics courses.

Thanks

 

[ShyRem]

You'd have to ask, however I would suspect that PChem would be considered a CHEMISTRY course and not a PHYSICS course. You'd be better off taking the upper level physics department courses for physics credit.

 

[SearsTower]

P. Chem = Hosed-down Physics, not advanced Physics

 

[Nutmeg]

P. Chem = Hosed-down Physics, not advanced Physics

Are you kidding?

I can't imagine that anyone who passed P-chem would be regarded by any ad-com as not being up-to-snuff in physics. At my alma mater, P-chem in the chemistry department and quantum mech in the physics department had sufficient overlap so as to preclude a person taking both classes for credit (that is, both courses said that previous coursework in the other would mean no credit or reduced credit).

P-chem is hard as hell. Most of the chemical engineering coursework I took was just applied physics (thermo, mass transfer, heat transfer, etc), and p-chem was the hardest of all.

I think it would do great for your purposes of showing that you have a strong grasp of physical sciences, and that you weren't just trying to skate past a prereq without learning. But beware, it is a difficult and often dry course with intense math. Good luck.

 

[DrBowtie]

Nutmeg, It is indeed a watered down version of Mechanics and Thermo in the physics department. I can guess that it was created since most chem majors wouldn't have enough math background to take the physics classes.

I wouldn't worry about taking a higher level physics class. The expectation relates to taking upper level bio classes or Biochem. You have already taken calc based which is more than most people.

 

[Sicilian]

Nutmeg, It is indeed a watered down version of Mechanics and Thermo in the physics department. I can guess that it was created since most chem majors wouldn't have enough math background to take the physics classes.

I wouldn't be quick to generalize it as watered down. There are plenty of diff equations (not to mention partial derivatives & multiple integrals) in that thing. Its like the bad-ass version of your gen-chem book with extensive hard-core physics supplements interspered throughout. Incidentally, I have to face the monster next term; the countdown has already begun.

 

[Nutmeg]

Nutmeg, It is indeed a watered down version of Mechanics and Thermo in the physics department. I can guess that it was created since most chem majors wouldn't have enough math background to take the physics classes.

I wouldn't worry about taking a higher level physics class. The expectation relates to taking upper level bio classes or Biochem. You have already taken calc based which is more than most people.

Maybe we're both generalizing the matter based on our own schools, but what you're saying here bears no resemblance to the reality at Berkeley, I can tell you. The upper division quantum mech class in the physics dept for physics majors requires "differential and integral calculus" along with the three course series in lower division physics as prereqs. The p-chem requirements include only the first two of the physics classes, but also the gen chem lower division series, and the mathematics requirements are through differential equations, linear algebra, and three-dimensional calculus. The thermo in the chemE department was certainly not "watered down," it was incredibly math-intensive, and yet the p-chem treatment of thermo was far, far more in-depth, rigorous, and challenging.

Of course, at my school chemistry got a whole lot more attention than physics department did. You could get a BA or BS in chemistry, but you could only get a BA in physics. I think your objection here is based on a particular experience not universal.

 

[booji]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks so much for your repsonses. I am currently in PChem 1, and at my school, we take a non-traditional approach to PChem in that we start with quantum mecahnics first. The course does seem to be difficult in its nature and content. I will double check with some of the schools I am applying to. Thanks Nutmeg for your support. Also thanks BrettBachelor for letting me know that those "advanced" courses often refer to the biology/chemistry courses.

Once again, thanks to everyone who posted...now back to worrying about the MCAT scores...:S

 

[SearsTower]

Thermodynamics P. Chem is a disgrace. It is easier than my first Physics class. I am taking P. Biochem & Quantum Mechanics in the fall. I don't even have the required math background as my highest math course was multivariable calculus. It's gonna be fun.

 

[adiddas125]

Nutmeg, It is indeed a watered down version of Mechanics and Thermo in the physics department. I can guess that it was created since most chem majors wouldn't have enough math background to take the physics classes.

I wouldn't worry about taking a higher level physics class. The expectation relates to taking upper level bio classes or Biochem. You have already taken calc based which is more than most people.

That is a very bad assumption. Have you taken Physical Chemistry? Do you understand how much math is in quantum and statistical mechanics? There are no mechanics in PCHEM, other than small analogs to springs and vibrations.... Having a chemistry degree requires that you have strong math skills if you are to perform top notch at the upper division. I think if you told that pchem is watered down physics to a chem professor, you would walk away thoroughly embarassed. In order to be an ACS certified chem major here, you go through rigorous math, physics, and chemistry training.

 

[SearsTower]

I agree with frick. My Physics professor was the guy that made the "watered-down" comment. He is a friggin' genius and he was the hardest teacher I've ever had.

 

[Arsenic]

moving to pre-allo

 

[Nutmeg]

Moreover, pchem never even touched on statistical thermodynamics, a topic to which an entire class is devoted in the physics major. As a result, I'd have to say that pchem is (as someone said above) very much a 'watered down' version of the classes taught in the physics department.

Again, you are talking about a particular experience in your school. My class at Cal had a full semester of statistical mechanics and a full semester of quantum physics as P-chem. We had to derive definitions for energy, Gibbs free energy, Helmhotz potential, entropy, etc. from the canonical partition sum etc. It was extremely math intensive and devoted an entire semester to thermostatistics. What you're describing sounds more like the "biophysical statistics" class they offered.

 

[Nutmeg]

The OP asked if pchem can be used to substitute for the AMCAS physics requirement; the answer is no, because pchem is considered to be a chemistry class.

No; he asked if it could meet their "expectation that you pursued more difficult coursework in the feild related to the subject you dodged with AP/IB." If you take p-chem and you do well on the PS of the MCAT, no one will doubt your ability to handle the physics they expect of you--especially when we're talking physics and med school.

 

[SeventhSon]

You guys are idiots. Everyone just wants to think what they are taking is harder. I am a chemical engineer who took a full year of pchem + CENG thermodynamics, and i've seen the books that the physics people take.

At my school there are 2 physical chemistry series: one for bio majors and one for engineers. The bio one is kinda watered down. The engineering requires every lower division math course that there is.

Here are the books we used for the hard track:

PChem I & II (thermo, statmech), Levine
PChem III (quantum), McQuarrie

CENG Thermo: Smith/Van Ness

From my study of PChem I/II I was able to handle virtually everything that someone in the physics dept did in their thermodynamics class.

The quantum class (using McQuarrie) was pretty hard but wasn't completely aweful. We never had to do atrocious proofs like the general solution for the harmonic oscillator. I can see a physics class being move involved.

Engineering thermo was an incredibly hard because it consistently required you to employ tons of math tricks, especialyl involving differential calculus concerning conservation of mass/energy equations. That and there was just a ton of stuff.

In the end, this argument is kind of stupid because on the conceptual level, these classes cover pretty much the same things at the same difficulties. The physics people seem to claim that the math may be more involved for physics but that doesnt bother people like me who have no trouble with math... and most of the math that is more involved in the physics classes doesn't make the concepts that are important any more enlightening.

 

[Nutmeg]

You guys are idiots. Everyone just wants to think what they are taking is harder. I am a chemical engineer who took a full year of pchem + CENG thermodynamics, and i've seen the books that the physics people take.

At my school there are 2 physical chemistry series: one for bio majors and one for engineers. The bio one is kinda watered down. The engineering requires every lower division math course that there is.

Here are the books we used for the hard track:

PChem I & II (thermo, statmech), Levine
PChem III (quantum), McQuarrie

CENG Thermo: Smith/Van Ness

From my study of PChem I/II I was able to handle virtually everything that someone in the physics dept did in their thermodynamics class.

The quantum class (using McQuarrie) was pretty hard but wasn't completely aweful. We never had to do atrocious proofs like the general solution for the harmonic oscillator. I can see a physics class being move involved.

Engineering thermo was an incredibly hard because it consistently required you to employ tons of math tricks, especialyl involving differential calculus concerning conservation of mass/energy equations. That and there was just a ton of stuff.

In the end, this argument is kind of stupid because on the conceptual level, these classes cover pretty much the same things at the same difficulties. The physics people seem to claim that the math may be more involved for physics but that doesnt bother people like me who have no trouble with math... and most of the math that is more involved in the physics classes doesn't make the concepts that are important any more enlightening.

I had the same ChemE thermo text as you, and I used McQuarrie for the full p-chem sequence, but the P-chem sequence also had a ****load of supplemental material not covered by McQuarrie. And p-chem was way more intense mathematically and conceptually. I managed a perfect score on the second ChemE thermo midterm (where the class mean was 66%) but I never even got close to that on any of the p-chem work.

It depends on the schools and the target audience. I'm guessing that most of the people saying they took p-chem for biochem had a class more like the watered-down ones you and I describe for the UCs.

 

[LJDHC05]

Here goes the over arching difference between chemistry and physics:

Physics strives to describe the underlying principles of the universe in neat and tidy mathematical expressions that can be comprehended by a few people, peer reviewed and stuck in a journal somewhere to be part of a later. Hence Quantum stops at the hydrogen atom because it's sufficient to describe an atom.

Chemistry is the application of the physical laws to the real world systems of atoms and molecules. Hence PChem goes on to heavier atoms and molecules and the extrapolation necessary to understand them. Out of this we get the field of chemical physics aka physical chemistry.

PChem doesnt get as hardcore into the math because, as chemists, we frankly dont care about or really even like math all that much...we just need to consider the laws of physics because our atoms and molecules follow them. Overall, yes Quantum is a harder class because it is more anal, but try doing it Quantum, learning diff eq's and linear algebra on the fly without the 3 prep classes you had to baby you into quantum. Now, go take your physics textbooks and sit alone in your room now and do 16 hours of problem sets, I'm gonna go drink a beer and watch some baseball and see my girlfriend.

 

[novawildcat]

It depends on where you take it. In the second semester of PChem we learned quantum mechanics in terms of Hilbert Space theory and Linear Operators.

 

[SeventhSon]

I had the same ChemE thermo text as you, and I used McQuarrie for the full p-chem sequence, but the P-chem sequence also had a ****load of supplemental material not covered by McQuarrie. And p-chem was way more intense mathematically and conceptually. I managed a perfect score on the second ChemE thermo midterm (where the class mean was 66%) but I never even got close to that on any of the p-chem work.

It depends on the schools and the target audience. I'm guessing that most of the people saying they took p-chem for biochem had a class more like the watered-down ones you and I describe for the UCs.

hahaha yeah the average on all our pchem thermo classes was 40% and the ChemE thermo tests had averages of 30% .

 

[SearsTower]

seventhson, are u turning 22 next month? Happy birthday!

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Hi Guys,

I did really well in my high school calc based physics class and on the IB Physics HL exam that my school waived the calc-based physics requirements for my degree. I know that many medical schools expect students to pursue more difficult courses in an area where they recieved "transfer" credit from High School. Unfortunately, at my school, they don't offer anything higher than Physics II calc-based, expect for some engineering classes like structures, circuits, and dynamics. I was wondering if the medical schools will accept Physical Chemistry I and II and/or Advanced Physical Chemistry as suitable "advanced" physics courses.

Thanks

I know one girl at my undergrad, Dartmouth, who took the hardcore version of pchem and substituted it for the intro physics classes. I think that's somewhat legitimate, since the mathematical techniques used are of a similar caliber (i.e. partial derivatives in thermo; partial fraction decomposition, sequences and series, and double and triple integrals in kinetics; and vectors (subspaces) and operators in quantum). But that's just for a rigorous pchem sequence. A lot of them are very bio-softened and use baby calculus.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

McQuarrie's book is a miserable piece of ****. I had to use that for my stat therm class, and the Bose-Einstein condensation chapter, with two-dimensional gas problems, Riemann zeta function, and the gamma function, were just ridiculous. I remember working with something called polylogs that I had never before seen and hope to never again work with.

But yes, a chemistry perspective text on stat mech can be quite as rigorous as the physics perspective. In the end, the difference is largely what topics are considered. Chemists might be more interested in rotational and vibrational partition functions of diatomic and polyatomic molecules, while physicists might be more interested in Fermi-Dirac and Bose-Einstein statistics applied to metals and photon gases, and astrophysicists might be interested in the stat mech of neutrons in neutron stars.