pedo with terrible stats? any chance?

[dentizt07]

howdy all, i've been lurking the boards for some time now and wanted to get everyone's advice - both good and bad.

i've been out of school for a few years now. after doing a gpr. i've been through a number of associateships - many of them working with children.

my grades aren't stellar - they basically stink - 2.8 and my board scores are even worse - 78 part I, 77 part II. However, I've been caught by the pedo bug since my dental school days. I know it's difficult to translate passion in one's application but I would be the Gordon Christensen of pediatric dentistry if given the opportunity. I'm 33 now, and have come to the conclusion that I could be a gp, make an okay living and treat it as a job or I can be fulfilled as a pediatric dentist.

What can I do, if anything, to bolster my application? Is it a done deal, shoud I bother even applying? I've visited friends in pedo residencies as well as numerous pediatric dental offices to observe and know I am on par w/ the clinical, personality aspects . . . it's just getting in. Have any of you heard of someone specialzing with sub par stats as mine? I knew a few w/ even less . . . but they had a connection with the director or were related some way. I am contemplating applying in the coming year, but don't know if it'll be worth it. thanks for any advice . . .

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[groundhog]

How can you bolster your application?

Here is one thought. You said little about the GPR. Did it have rigorous competency requirements that were evaluated by the attendings and signed off by the director? If so, did you receive consistant high marks on those evaluations? Did it have a significant Pedo component? If so, what would influential folks in that department be willing to say in regards to what they observed about your skills and your interactions with the Pedo residents, attendings, patients and staff?

 

[capisce?]

How bad do you want it? Bad enough to retake Part 1?

Nothing is impossible but with your GPA and boards it's going to be next to impossible to get in somewhere. If you are really passionate about it take 2 months to study for boards and rock Part I. You'd be a shoe-in at that point...as someone with the drive to retake part I after being out a few years out of sheer desire to do pedo.

Just my 2c as usual. Good luck.

 

[Cold Front]

my grades aren't stellar - they basically stink - 2.8 and my board scores are even worse - 78 part I, 77 part II.

A 2005 pedo publication said... the averages are 3.3 GPA and 85 on part 1. Those numbers have been going up since then, I'm guessing... maybe to 3.5 and 87.

capisce? is right, you can't change your GPA, but you can always change your part 1 score.

Good luck.

 

[eh384]

I read your post, and it was like reading my thoughts exactly. Although my grades are a bit better then yours, I'm 32 and have been out of school 4 years working in associateships. I applied last year to pedo and no luck. For the past year I've been working in a clinic treating underpriveleged kids, volunteering with the Special Olympics, taking close to 20 Pedo/Ortho CE courses, and lecturing at local elementary schools. I've also visited a number of pedo programs and contacted a number of directors. I applied to 33 programs, and so far I have 4 interviews, and I haven't heard back from about 20 programs yet. I feel the same way as you that given the opportunity, I could be a world-renowned pedodontist, and that is what I am striving for. I say apply. For people like us, grades aren't exactly our best asset, so your resume needs to be that much stronger. Get to know people in the pedo programs, get involved with pedo outreach/ special olympics or something like that, and take all the CE you can. You can't compete with a 4.0 and NBDE scores in the ninties, but you can seperate yourself with a resume that shows your commitment and determination. I say apply to as many programs as you can afford, and don't be discouraged. If you would like to talk, just private message me and I'll be gald to give you my e-mail or cell phone number

 

[ItsGavinC]

I agree that you'll need to retake Part I.

 

[Cold Front]

I applied to 33 programs...

How much does it cost to apply each program?

 

[eh384]

It cost me over $2000 for applications, not including travel expenses. Small price to pay for future happiness

 

[2thmaker]

I read the entire post. Am in a similar predicament, applied to endo, got three interviews, no luck. Bottom line: you are competing in an applicant pool whose credentials improve year after year. To be honest, I think you can do much better in both parts I and II. It sounds like you have the desire and drive. So I know you can make it. You have experience over the other applicants so that is a plus. But you'll also want to be on par with numbers. Whether you can break 90 is really up to you. As for me, got 79 part II and 91 part I. Endo is also competitive; i'm taking part II soon and strongly considering taking part I again . My personal goal is to get into the programs of my choice, not just rely on luck. Good luck to you and your endeavors.

 

[tinker bell]

How about doing a lot of community work for kids + research. If you have your names on 3-4 papers, it may makes the difference. You can conduct clinical research while working at those underserved areas. Be creative and come up with a CDA paper, it would help.

 

[capisce?]

In the time it would take to do credible research, you can study for part I and rock it. I would not recommend going that route. You can do all of those extra little things but people are going to have a hard time getting past the things that get you into the door. Yes, I know, he may find somewhere to overlook it. But at this point, why waste more time on maybes and what-ifs. Take matters into your own hands, hunker down for part 1 for 2 months, and nail part I. It's not gonna take a score in the 90s IMO...just improve and get mid-upper 80s and you'll be fine. In the long term those few months are nothing.

 

[PCAT_gal]

Gavin and Capisce, your posts are always very informative and as residents I am sure you know what you are talking about. Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice. Always good to hear from the ones who made it!

 

[Tooth]

A 2005 pedo publication said... the averages are 3.3 GPA and 85 on part 1. Those numbers have been going up since then, I'm guessing... maybe to 3.5 and 87.

capisce? is right, you can't change your GPA, but you can always change your part 1 score.

Good luck.

Which pedo publication said that?

 

[capisce?]

Which pedo publication said that?

Demographics and Quality Profile of Applicants to Pediatric
Dentistry Residencies
Pediatric Dentistry 2006;28:425-430​

Sona J. Isharani, DDS1 C. Scott Litch, MA, JD2 Elaine Romberg, PhD3 Anne Wells, EdD4

Abstract​

Purpose: The purpose of this study was to use Postdoctoral Application Support Service (PASS) data to study the quality and demographic trends for pediatric dentistry residency applicants.
Methods: PASS data on grade point average (GPA) and National Dental Board Exam, Part I (NBI) scores were used to determine applicant quality. PASS demographic data included: (1) gender; (2) citizenship; (3) ethnicity; (4) previous practice of dentistry; and (5) completion of a residency or internship.
Results: GPAs showed a significant increase for the 6 years investigated. NBI scores also indicated a significant increase. Significantly more females than males applied to pediatric dentistry residencies. A significant increase in US/Canadian applicants was found. Ethnicity was similar to that of dental school graduates, with minor exceptions. In several of the years studied, there were significant differences in applicants who previously practiced dentistry or completed a residency/internship vs applicants who had no such previous experience.
Conclusions: Significant increases in grade point averages and National Dental Board Exam, Part I scores suggest a high quality of pediatric dentistry residency applicants and this trend seem to be continuing. There are significantly more female than male applicants. More research is warranted on actual acceptance data.

 

[razor1911]

Nothing is impossible but with your GPA and boards it's going to be next to impossible to get in somewhere. If you are really passionate about it take 2 months to study for boards and rock Part I. You'd be a shoe-in at that point....

A shoe-in? You must be joking.

I wouldn't advise the OP to retake Part I. From my own experience, retaken and high Part I scores with CEs or internships or experience do not offset low gpas and class rank. The problem lies in the fact that there are so many candidates with high academic stats.

I know it's not something the OP wants to hear but I wish I was told the exact same thing when I was trying to get into OS. None of the OS directors would be upfront with me when I asked about my possibilities if I did this or that.

 

[capisce?]

A shoe-in? You must be joking.

I wouldn't advise the OP to retake Part I. From my own experience, retaken and high Part I scores with CEs or internships or experience do not offset low gpas and class rank. The problem lies in the fact that there are so many candidates with high academic stats.

I know it's not something the OP wants to hear but I wish I was told the exact same thing when I was trying to get into OS. None of the OS directors would be upfront with me when I asked about my possibilities if I did this or that.

You can't compare OS to pedo, period. They need candidates who have the ability to get through medical school and the significant didactic component that accompanies oral surgery training. As such, they use indicators to predict which students have the best chance to do well. Obviously, they will be hesitant to accept someone who has a proven track record of substandard academic records, regardless of whether or not they took several months to improve their board scores. If you can't grind through med school, they aren't going to grant you extra time to get by. Pedo does not have that component. An improvement in his board scores will show that he is 100% motivated to be a pediatric dentist. Your improvement might have shown that although you may be motivated, unless you have ample time and a few cracks at something you don't have what it takes to get through oral surgery training.

Pedo does not have that component to it's training. Pediatric programs want motivated people with a dedicated interest to working with kids. That's not to say that oral surgery doesn't want motivated people, but all of the motivation in the world is not enough to get you through med school and the following years of torture if you can't academically hack it. I think I'm in more of a position to comment on this since I'm in a pedo program and for the last 2 years reviewed applications to our program.

You absolutely cannot compare the application process of oral surgery with pedo, they are polar opposites.

 

[ItsGavinC]

A shoe-in? You must be joking.

I wouldn't advise the OP to retake Part I.

He wants to do pedo. The odds of him matching with his current application are slim. The *best* thing he can do to bolster his application, to make him a more competitive applicant, is to have a high Part I score (given that the list of things he can change on his application does not include GPA or class rank). Are you telling him to do nothing because he can't improve his application?

If he scores well on Part I, he stands a very good chance of matching. Program directors will appreciate that he has practiced dentistry for several years and his own experiences in the world of dentistry have confirmed that he wants to work with children. He isn't a D4 who wants to make cash and has chosen pedo, and program directors will latch on to that. It isn't his pedo experience, it's the experiences he's had.