Penn vs. Cornell vs. Tufts

[jaytee09]

Hey SDNers...I know there are a few of you out there deciding between two or three of these schools (boooyahh for the northern east coast). I was hoping we could get a pros/cons/opinions discussion going that will help everyone to make an informed decision.

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[Angelo84]

This is a start:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=375912&highlight=penn+vs+tufts

Hope that works, other wise start searching for school vs school you should find some lists.

Good luck

 

[nude mouse]

Hey SDNers...I know there are a few of you out there deciding between two or three of these schools (boooyahh for the northern east coast). I was hoping we could get a pros/cons/opinions discussion going that will help everyone to make an informed decision.

Hi Jaytee,

I'm in a very similar situation and I was wondering if you have visited all of the campuses. I've been to Penn and Tufts but never Cornell so I'm planning on going to one of the admitted students weekends.

I've heard a lot of valid points for all 3 schools and in the end I think it comes down to the individual. I think all 3 could be THE perfect school for someone - the hard part is just finding out which is the best for me.. or you

I feel so fortunate to have a decision to make! Good luck with yours.

 

[flagirl2014]

Congrats to both of you for having to decide between such awesome schools. You both have obviously worked very hard to get to this step. Best of luck in your decision making. My only recommendation is to decide which is best for YOU...

 

[Angelus9]

I know someone who chose Penn over Tufts (which of course is an excellent school) - the final deciding factor was caseload. Tufts just didn't have the case load Penn has for either SA or LA.

The other reason for this person was either be out in the middle of nowhere at Tufts (not meant disparagingly at all, and of course "country" living would be a deciding factor in the other direction for different people) or else be smack in the middle of a huge city with concerts, museums, restaurants, vibrant city life at your fingertips for the first 2.5 years. As an equine person who would then be moving out to New Bolton 3rd year, the opportunity to spend time in Philly, which is a great city, plus there's that enormous SA case load that comes with a huge city, was not to be passed up.

This person wasn't that interested in Cornell after the site visit. PBL was not their thing.

And New Bolton Center - not to be passed up.

The great thing about veterinary school is that if you decide on Tufts, you can then do an internship and/or residency at Penn or Cornell, or vice versa. Best of all worlds!

 

[turnbackhelly]

Thanks so much for starting this thread, and to all who have contributed thus far. I'm already struggling with Penn vs. Cornell and have an interview at Tufts next week. Cornell is my IS but caseload (particularly SA) and PBL are two huge concerns of mine. In a perfect world I would have deposited at Penn weeks ago (I'm in love...), but OOS tuition is also a huge concern of mine... I'm going to the Cornell open house next weekend, but in the meantime, are there any current students around who can address the school's PBL curriculum and SA caseload?

 

[cupolovet]

I am a current second year at Cornell. I likewise had concerns about pbl and would be more than willing to discuss any questions or concerns about anything veterinary with anyone who would like my input. You can check the old posts and see that I struggled with the decision between penn and cornell for some time. I applied to Tufts but turned down my interview after Penn, CSU, and Tufts offered me admission. It is not an easy choice if you are fortunate enough to end up in that situation, but I would definitely try to go to the accepted student days at Cornell. You will have ample time to ask the tough questions to real students away from the faculty or vice versa if you wish.

 

[Angelus9]

Cornell is my IS

If this means it'd save you thousands of dollars, why not go to Cornell? Really, those student loans and the INTEREST, which is the killer, are going to hit like a ton of bricks one day. Why not save that money and spend it on your home, your practice, your retirement fund, whatever?

 

[Crazy Hippos]

I am a current second year at Cornell. I likewise had concerns about pbl and would be more than willing to discuss any questions or concerns about anything veterinary with anyone who would like my input. You can check the old posts and see that I struggled with the decision between penn and cornell for some time. I applied to Tufts but turned down my interview after Penn, CSU, and Tufts offered me admission. It is not an easy choice if you are fortunate enough to end up in that situation, but I would definitely try to go to the accepted student days at Cornell. You will have ample time to ask the tough questions to real students away from the faculty or vice versa if you wish.

How did you get admitted into Tufts when you turned down your interview?

 

[turnbackhelly]

If this means it'd save you thousands of dollars, why not go to Cornell? Really, those student loans and the INTEREST, which is the killer, are going to hit like a ton of bricks one day. Why not save that money and spend it on your home, your practice, your retirement fund, whatever?

Well, yeah, exactly. I'm 99% sure I'll end up at Cornell, but really for this reason only. Which, at the end of the day, kind of sucks* because I have a laundry list of reasons why I'm almost positive Penn is a much better fit for me (personally, academically, and professionally). But unfortunately I guess that's life...

*Edited to clarify: not saying that going to Cornell sucks - only that having to make a decision based solely on money sucks.

 

[GellaBella]

Turnbackhelly, what is it you want to do with your vet degree? Why are you thinking PennVet is a better fit for you? Are you interested in research?

 

[turnbackhelly]

Turnbackhelly, what is it you want to do with your vet degree? Why are you thinking PennVet is a better fit for you? Are you interested in research?

I'm hoping (at the moment, I know I may change my mind) to go into small animal emergency medicine, so almost definitely an internship and residency after vet school. So for starters, I don't think anyone can argue that Penn's small animal (and specifically SA ECC) caseload is (much?) bigger than Cornell's due to its location. I've been in Philly/the surrounding area for the past 3 years and I absolutely love it here - and I'm really not convinced that I will love living in Ithaca. This is a huge factor for me. I also have a really great (veterinary) job here that has already offered me a lot of flexibility should I choose Penn and want to work a little bit while in school (ex: working one weekend a month, not working at all first semester while I adjust and then coming back to work in the spring, etc). I would love to work in the Philly area long-term after graduation/internship/residency/whatever and am under the impression that being hired in this area would be easier as a Penn grad than as a Cornell grad, due to the size of the local veterinary community - if this impression is wrong, someone please correct my thinking. Academically, I personally really like the traditional structure of Penn's curriculum - sitting in lecture and studying for exams works really well for me. I definitely need to learn more about Cornell's PBL curriculum, but at the moment I'm having trouble imagining how it's possible to learn all that there is to learn efficiently in that method. Obviously it is done; obviously past and current Cornell students do learn all they need to know and end up being great veterinarians. I'm just not sure it's right for me.

I have discussed my Penn vs. Cornell struggle with a close friend who is currently a 4th year at Cornell, and based on the above concerns and money aside, she advised me to go to Penn. But of course, we can't put money aside. Which is why I'm almost positive that I'll end up at Cornell.

Didn't mean to hijack away from the OP, but there are the pros and cons of Penn and Cornell as I see them, based on my interests, goals, and current situation.

 

[Angelus9]

Small animal emergency? Perfect.

Do your DVM at Cornell and go to Penn for your internship and/or residency. That way you'll save boatloads of money and be at Penn with the enormous city caseload when you're actually a doctor and will be able to DO so much more hands on stuff. Win-win!

 

[jaytee09]

Turnbackhelly,
Have you considered deferring your Penn acceptance for a year and establishing IS residency? It sounds like you already live in the area, so could you continue with your current job for the next year and enter in the fall of 2011?

 

[Tco87]

I know that there are ways to get around out of state tuition. I don't what they specifically are, but I've heard about out of state students at different schools becoming in state residents even though it's technically supposed to be impossible.
I would recommend looking into that and seeing if you can find anyone who knows about loopholes you can take advantage of.

As for the pros and cons of Penn, Tufts, and Cornell, from what I know the big distinguishing features among these schools are:
Penn - one of the biggest case loads of any vet school
tracks
Large animal hospital is 1 - 1.5 hours away from main campus
main campus is in Philadelphia
Tufts - doesn't track
has their own wildlife clinic
small animal, large animal, and wildlife hospitals are on same campus
campus is essentially in the middle of nowhere, but Boston is about an hour away
Cornell - does problem based learning
I believe Ithaca is a small town?

I honestly never looked at Cornell, because problem based learning isn't really my thing, so I don't know much about them....

 

[cupolovet]

How did you get admitted into Tufts when you turned down your interview?

Sorry typo. I turned down the interview after I got into the other three.

 

[absvet]

I am in the same situation - accepted to Cornell, Penn and Tufts, and Cornell is my IS. I am pretty sure I will end up there, just because it is REALLY hard to justify an extra $60K + in loans. I haven't visited Cornell yet, but am going this weekend! I am excited, and unless I HATE it, which I doubt, Cornell here I come! I loved the other schools, though, and if it weren't for the money, this decision would be even harder!

 

[wasabiii]

Congratulations to all of you who have been accepted to these wonderful institutions. Not only do you have choices but these schools are all prestigious in their own right and clearly you will receive a premier education wherever you end up.

As an accountant who is applying to vet school I am unable to justify the additional cost in tuition for oos. If one of these fine schools is your in state, I would strongly encourage you to attend that school. During the next four years you will meet great professors, incredible colleagues, and experience a wealth of experiences...including interesting cases. This will be true at all schools.

However, for the following 20 years you will be on the line for paying for those "great 4 years"...your last years as a student. At some point, you will have a family (mouths to feed), a mortgage, a car payment, bills, etc. As for me, Id rather suck it up and go to my in state school than be on the line for an additional 100k. If one of these schools happens to be your IS and you got in than you are one of the lucky few. Enjoy it, and sign up. Dont let other people try to persuade you about the "right fit" etc. I assure you that if you are responsible for paying back your student loans, at some point in time you will regret the more expensive option.

P.S. I dont mean to sound like a pretentious jerk, but truly you will have significantly more financial resources to enjoy life for a longer period of time if you choose the cheaper alternative.

EXAMPLE: Two very basic cases without knowing actual costs and loan rates.


Assumptions used are a very generous rate of 6.5pts (which is probably low) and OOS debt of 200k vs IS of 100k.

OOS: Monthly Payment $1491 (for 20 years) Total cost including interest is $357,874.

IS: Monthly Payment $745, TC is $178,938.

This is a difference of 746 a month, $8,952. Thats a BMW payment or a massive chunk of mortgage. Or that could be put towards the college education of your future/current children. The point that I want everyone to consider is that you are going to have an awesome time at any of these schools and receive one of the best educations in the country.

***I would encourage anyone who is on the fence to calculate your 4yr debt load. Obtain a current I-rate and calculate your monthly debt service. THEN...start with the pros and cons of each school and determine at what cost is your dream school worth because long after you graduate you will be paying for school. Unless you have awesome parents, and if you do...put them in touch with me. JK.

 

[rileyroo]

Congratulations to all of you who have been accepted to these wonderful institutions. Not only do you have choices but these schools are all prestigious in their own right and clearly you will receive a premier education wherever you end up.

As an accountant who is applying to vet school I am unable to justify the additional cost in tuition for oos. If one of these fine schools is your in state, I would strongly encourage you to attend that school. During the next four years you will meet great professors, incredible colleagues, and experience a wealth of experiences...including interesting cases. This will be true at all schools.

However, for the following 20 years you will be on the line for paying for those "great 4 years"...your last years as a student. At some point, you will have a family (mouths to feed), a mortgage, a car payment, bills, etc. As for me, Id rather suck it up and go to my in state school than be on the line for an additional 100k. If one of these schools happens to be your IS and you got in than you are one of the lucky few. Enjoy it, and sign up. Dont let other people try to persuade you about the "right fit" etc. I assure you that if you are responsible for paying back your student loans, at some point in time you will regret the more expensive option.

P.S. I dont mean to sound like a pretentious jerk, but truly you will have significantly more financial resources to enjoy life for a longer period of time if you choose the cheaper alternative.

EXAMPLE: Two very basic cases without knowing actual costs and loan rates.


Assumptions used are a very generous rate of 6.5pts (which is probably low) and OOS debt of 200k vs IS of 100k.

OOS: Monthly Payment $1491 (for 20 years) Total cost including interest is $357,874.

IS: Monthly Payment $745, TC is $178,938.

This is a difference of 746 a month, $8,952. Thats a BMW payment or a massive chunk of mortgage. Or that could be put towards the college education of your future/current children. The point that I want everyone to consider is that you are going to have an awesome time at any of these schools and receive one of the best educations in the country.

***I would encourage anyone who is on the fence to calculate your 4yr debt load. Obtain a current I-rate and calculate your monthly debt service. THEN...start with the pros and cons of each school and determine at what cost is your dream school worth because long after you graduate you will be paying for school. Unless you have awesome parents, and if you do...put them in touch with me. JK.

if i'm not mistaken, for tufts and penn the OOS tuition price isn't much different than IS tuition. i'm not sure for Cornell. so the difference in paying OOS and IS for Tufts and Penn isn't as substantial as for other schools like Auburn, Minnesota, etc.

 

[futurehealervet]

bumping this thread as the decision deadline is wednesday and Im stuck between tufts and cornell. If anyone has experience with these schools, I could REALLY use some advice.

1. Tufts seems to have an awesome wildlife program and I love the IDEA of a career in conservation or wildlife medicine however experience as an undergrad in these fields has been tough to find. Should this really be a factor for me?

2. I'm mainly looking for flexibility so I can figure out what I want to do. Tufts has selectives, but no electives and only one afternoon a week is devoted to selectives. Cornell has 30% electives, but tracks partly during clinics. It seems like cornell would be more flexible but a lot of the electives in cornell are already built into the tufts curriculum so I'm really not sure. Can anyone tell me about the comparative flexibility in these programs?

3. I didn't love cornells mock tutor group but I do like how the curriculum is structured and the case-based aspects of the curriculum. I'm just not a big group learner. However, I've gotten really bored in undergrad being lectured to so maybe PBL is a better fit? Does anyone know if the PBL extends to lectures--> lecturers teach through cases?

If anyone can tell me anything about these aspects of the program, I'd REALLY appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[WillowRosenberg]

bumping this thread as the decision deadline is wednesday and Im stuck between tufts and cornell. If anyone has experience with these schools, I could REALLY use some advice.

1. Tufts seems to have an awesome wildlife program and I love the IDEA of a career in conservation or wildlife medicine however experience as an undergrad in these fields has been tough to find. Should this really be a factor for me?

2. I'm mainly looking for flexibility so I can figure out what I want to do. Tufts has selectives, but no electives and only one afternoon a week is devoted to selectives. Cornell has 30% electives, but tracks partly during clinics. It seems like cornell would be more flexible but a lot of the electives in cornell are already built into the tufts curriculum so I'm really not sure. Can anyone tell me about the comparative flexibility in these programs?

3. I didn't love cornells mock tutor group but I do like how the curriculum is structured and the case-based aspects of the curriculum. I'm just not a big group learner. However, I've gotten really bored in undergrad being lectured to so maybe PBL is a better fit? Does anyone know if the PBL extends to lectures--> lecturers teach through cases?

If anyone can tell me anything about these aspects of the program, I'd REALLY appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I second this since I'm in the same situation in having to choose between these two!

 

[olive.]

If I may ask, what were your stats to get accepted into these schools? (Also, I'm relatively new to this forum so please let me know if I'm posting in the wrong place!) I'm in the c/o 2020 cycle and am planning on applying to all three. I go to a pretty non-traditional school that doesn't have the typical semester/credit system so I can't say what my "last 45" gpa is, nor can I say what my science gpa is, but my cumulative gpa is around a 3.7 (maybe a 3.6, not entirely sure). I have around 1,000 hours of SA experience, and 100 of LA, and will be interning at a shire draught horse farm this summer, learning to train the horses, drive the carriages, and also being an assistant/tech to their vet. I haven't taken the GRE yet, but I'm planning on taking it in June. Do you think I stand a chance?

Edit: UPenn is my instate school!

 

[futurehealervet]

If I may ask, what were your stats to get accepted into these schools? (Also, I'm relatively new to this forum so please let me know if I'm posting in the wrong place!) I'm in the c/o 2020 cycle and am planning on applying to all three. I go to a pretty non-traditional school that doesn't have the typical semester/credit system so I can't say what my "last 45" gpa is, nor can I say what my science gpa is, but my cumulative gpa is around a 3.7 (maybe a 3.6, not entirely sure). I have around 1,000 hours of SA experience, and 100 of LA, and will be interning at a shire draught horse farm this summer, learning to train the horses, drive the carriages, and also being an assistant/tech to their vet. I haven't taken the GRE yet, but I'm planning on taking it in June. Do you think I stand a chance?

Edit: UPenn is my instate school!

I actually got wait listed at UPenn but am between cornell and tufts. My stats are in the accepted applicant thread. Your stats sound good to me. Not sure but I think your GPA is above average and it sounds like you'll have a good amount of LA and SA. I'd study real hard for the GREs because they count a lot for cornell at least, I think UPenn weighs academics heavily as well.You'll get more responses if you post in the what are my chances thread. Its tough because they didn't tell me why they were accepting me and schools I was rejected from didn't tell me why they rejected me either. My strategy was to look at quantifiable average stats (GPA, GRE, hours as opposed to ECs and leadership) for accepted applicants and try to do as well as possible in those areas as opposed to focusing on the subjective factors, since you never really know what will look best subjectively. Good Luck with your apps!!!!!!!

 

[onisteverina]

bumping this thread as the decision deadline is wednesday and Im stuck between tufts and cornell. If anyone has experience with these schools, I could REALLY use some advice.

1. Tufts seems to have an awesome wildlife program and I love the IDEA of a career in conservation or wildlife medicine however experience as an undergrad in these fields has been tough to find. Should this really be a factor for me?

2. I'm mainly looking for flexibility so I can figure out what I want to do. Tufts has selectives, but no electives and only one afternoon a week is devoted to selectives. Cornell has 30% electives, but tracks partly during clinics. It seems like cornell would be more flexible but a lot of the electives in cornell are already built into the tufts curriculum so I'm really not sure. Can anyone tell me about the comparative flexibility in these programs?

3. I didn't love cornells mock tutor group but I do like how the curriculum is structured and the case-based aspects of the curriculum. I'm just not a big group learner. However, I've gotten really bored in undergrad being lectured to so maybe PBL is a better fit? Does anyone know if the PBL extends to lectures--> lecturers teach through cases?

If anyone can tell me anything about these aspects of the program, I'd REALLY appreciate it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't have answers to all of your questions.. and am not familiar with tufts at all, but I thought I would some info out there..

So, I've never been a good study group type of person.. still not. Tutor groups are more about discussing a case.. going over clinical signs, what you would consider problems for that patient, mechanisms for those problems, plans for treatment/diagnostics.. and then compiling a list of "learning issues" where you go home (or the library.. but apparently there won't be much of a library next year) and do the research yourself. So basically you are studying independently.. or however you want.. and then come back and discuss with the group to make sure you didn't miss anything. Throughout the week there are lectures that will support whatever body system you are covering.. they will throw in mini cases here and there than are covered in an hour or two... Not every block is PBL based.. so after block 1, which was PBL, we had two shorter blocks that were almost completely lecture based. One of those blocks (called "distributions")consisted of neuroanatomy, a gross anatomy lab of your choice, along with multiple electives to choose from... I know there were one or two conservation medicine options for first years.. with the idea that there are more options as 2rd and 3rd years. I know as 2nd years, we will have to take a fluids class during distributions, but then will take additional electives as well. Right now, we are back into PBL format and focusing on physiology.. we are in kidney week, so our case involves a kidney patient and we have approx. 1-2 lectures a day.. tutor group or lab (alternates each day).. and will have a mini case presentation at the end of the week. We also have clinical skills labs in the afternoon... during block one it lined up pretty well with what we were covering in class, but it's kind of unrelated to what we are covering in class at this point.. but doing more fun things (did cow rectals last week).

Can't really comment much about the wildlife questions. I know that there is a wildlife club, as well as opportunities to work/volunteer in the wildlife center throughout the year.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Honestly, I don't think electives in your didactic years matter all too much in the grand scheme of things. Clinics really shapes what/who you will be as a practitioner.

One thing that is good about the Tufts curriculum in that regard is that I think they allow their students to choose like 17 weeks of electives + 4 weeks vacation (or extra electives) during the clinical year so you can really personalize your clinical training. I don't know how Cornell's clinical year compares to that, but that's a lot of freedom compared to most schools.

 

[ktjc216]

I applied and was accepted to Tufts and absolutely fell in love with their program. I loved that they didn't track and they actually encouraged students to try as many fields as possible (SA, LA, exotic, lab, public health etc). They also have a program called Selectives where you are given a block of time throughout the week, typically Tuesdays, to pursue whatever interests you have. You could choose from existing selectives or work with a faculty member to create your own. Some selectives included students working on public health projects at Harvard, working with faculty members in clinics, or working with private practice veterinarians. You can start selectives your freshman year and its a great way to get hands on clinic experience or conduct research before your clinical years. They also are very hands on your first year teaching you various clinical skills. They also have great dual programs like DVM/MPH and PhD, but they also have a dual DVM/MS for lab animal medicine and comparative biomedical science, as well as a dual MA in diplomacy. As for wildlife/exotics they have a great program, with a separate hospital dedicated solely for wildlife, and their wildlife vets are amazing, especially Dr. Pokras. As for being out in the country, I took the train in from the city and it was only an hour ride and was relatively cheap. Worcester, which is a nice sized city is only 15 minutes away. The faculty and students all told me that there is a lot of outdoor activities to do in the immediate area, but its really easy to just go into Boston or to Worcester for shopping, bars, etc. and many actually live there. I was also extremely impressed by how nice and welcoming the staff, faculty and students where and were extremely down to earth. It was by far my favorite interview I had! To me the only downsides were that the SA and LA hospitals were a little dated, but the wildlife hospital and education building where classes are held are newly updated. In addition the anatomy lab is in its own building and all cadavers were actual patients that were donated to the school. As you dissect them you are given their case history and are able to see different pathologies between cadavers, which I haven't heard of another school doing before. The other downfall is cost, but in comparison to Penn and Cornell its not really any different. Cost for me is the only reason why I'm not attending Tufts, I unfortunately just couldn't justify spending double the cost compared to my instate when I took into account future loan repayments.