People have given up on the quarantine.

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Old Timer said:
I don't where you get the idea I am scared or afraid. Not at all. Just prudent. Unlike some, I don't ignore evidence. The evidence about this is as clear as 100,000 deaths in 4 months. Eventually we will have abetter handle who gets really sick, we will have some treatment and we will have a vaccine and then Covid-19 will be like other respiratory viruses that kill some people but is generally a PITA. But , we don't have any of those things so that makes this more dangerous.

The idea that"

This is the same as the flu
It only effects old people

Is false.
Click to expand...
This is getting tiresome. There is "data" to support both sides of the argument.

If you look at Italy, which had one of the worst outbreaks of this virus, "almost 96% of the country’s virus fatalities had previous medical conditions, data from Italy’s ISS health institute show... the average age of Italians who’ve died from the virus at around 80."

www.bloomberg.com

Italy Says 96% of Virus Fatalities Suffered From Other Illnesses

The coronavirus outbreak in Italy has struck overwhelmingly among the nation’s older population and those with preexisting medical conditions, according to the national health authority.
www.bloomberg.com www.bloomberg.com

Are there situations where young people with no preexisting conditions die from this virus, YES. But that doesn't mean this virus is more deadly than the flu. If people are worried about getting sick, you can wear your mask and avoid the outdoors. Let those who want to live their lives return to some semblance of normality.

This country is being splintered into factions by forces that people have no idea exist. Call it a conspiracy or whatever but more damage is on the way. Riots are being instigated in major cities and this will most likely turn into chaos. People are bitter and desperate.
 
Old Timer said:
Look., I'm sure you are an expert and you know better than the doctors who did the study or the people who reviewed for BMJ. What about the people between 45-64, are they old? The point is clear, many young people (under 65) and you are are pointing only to the 16% under 45. The risk factors for hospitalizations are:
  • Age over 75
  • BMI >40
  • Diabetes
  • CHF
  • Hypertension.
Depends on how you define old. The idea this does not affect young people is ludicrous.

53% of the patients hospitalized at the 4 NYU hospitals in March 2020 are under 65. That is the majority. Additionally, 16% of the hospitalized were under 45. Unless you consider a 46 y/o to be old. Most would not. You also directly mis quoted what I said. There is a differrence between high and higher.
Click to expand...

This is the point that I'm making. It is entirely possible mathematically that 53% of your cohort can be under 65 AND the hospital admission rate for 65 yo to only be 20%. I'm talking about hospitalized vs. non-hospitalized cases. What is your risk for being hospitalized if you get covid-19. The cohort of 4 NYU hospitals does not answer that question, it tells you the demographics of people admitted and nothing about who WASN'T admitted.

I agreed with you that it affects young people, and it's ludicrous to pretend that it does not. However, that is not my position. My position is that the risk of serious illness for healthy adults <45 is very very low, and I believe the data support that.
 
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lane one said:
This is the point that I'm making. It is entirely possible mathematically that 53% of your cohort can be under 65 AND the hospital admission rate for 65 yo to only be 20%. I'm talking about hospitalized vs. non-hospitalized cases. What is your risk for being hospitalized if you get covid-19. The cohort of 4 NYU hospitals does not answer that question, it tells you the demographics of people admitted and nothing about who WASN'T admitted.

I agreed with you that it affects young people, and it's ludicrous to pretend that it does not. However, that is not my position. My position is that the risk of serious illness for healthy adults <45 is very very low, and I believe the data support that.
Click to expand...
Karen does not care. If you disagree with him for anything, he will consider you a selfish ***** that doesn’t understand anything. Lol.
 
PharmtoCS said:
There is some evidence that COVID is causing hypercoaguability leading to thrombotic events, i.e. strokes, MIs, pulmonary emboli, etc.

Heart attacks and COVID are not necessarily unrelated.
Click to expand...
VictorOfHungerGames said:
Please cite source. Otherwise, you're just spreading false info and fear.

As I always have done before, what were their age, gender, comorbidities?

UpToDate

www.uptodate.com www.uptodate.com

"Both of these studies noted the preponderance of males with a high prevalence of obesity and other chronic medical comorbidities, especially cardiovascular disease, hypertension, and diabetes mellitus."

Again, no one is arguing that covid19 does not kill or it does not cause people with comobidities to have exacerbation on their conditions.

What people are arguing about is, was the death due to covid19 or was it due to another reason and the person just happened to have covid19? Hence, death by covid19 vs death with covid19.
Click to expand...
VictorOfHungerGames said:
No. I didnt read your study. Honestly, dont really care since i dont think its all that relevant.

People kept on asking weird questions so i thought id throw them a bone with a study i read on uptodate which clearly validates whats been happening which is covid19 death is mainly due to exacerbation of patient’s comorbidities. my point was that a young healthy patient isnt going to suddenly develop something they never had just because they contracted covid19 and die.

My main question has always been, why do we not distinguish death by covid19 vs death with covid19?
Click to expand...

Didn't this whole thrombosis discussion start when you questioned if heart attacks would be called covid-19 deaths? If you want to understand how covid-19 deaths are recorded its absolutely relevant.

You're basically saying that if someone has a heart attack, that death shouldn't attributed to a virus. But the virus increases the rate of those events, so without the virus, the death may not have happened. Seems pretty relevant to me.
 
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lane one said:
Didn't this whole thrombosis discussion start when you questioned if heart attacks would be called covid-19 deaths? If you want to understand how covid-19 deaths are recorded its absolutely relevant.

You're basically saying that if someone has a heart attack, that death shouldn't attributed to a virus. But the virus increases the rate of those events, so without the virus, the death may not have happened. Seems pretty relevant to me.
Click to expand...
Right. If you already have you mind made up that i am wrong and you are right, thats how my question will sound like.

That is not what I asked or what my question was.

Agains, seems like most of you who think my questions are absurd are not even reading any of my posts and just attack based on what you want to read.

Here is what happened.

I ran across videos and articles where government officials are admitting that even though the patient may have died of other causes, cancer, heart attack, or whatever, if the patient happened to have covid19 positive diagnosis, regardless of whether covid19 had any contribution or not, will be ruled covid19 death.

That doesnt bother you?

I am not refuting the fact that covid19 can exacerbate preexisting conditions just like any other infection. All you smart people know this im assuming.

My question again for the 100th time is,

Why do we not distinguish death BY covid19 vs death WITH covid19?
 
@lane one

Also, not sure how this comparison started but my point wasn't specifically for CVD. Someone had taken my question out of context and posted something about CVD relating to covid19.

If someone had stage 4 cancer and was about to die, had positive diagnosis for covid19, based on the "official" story, they would be ruled as covid19 death.

If an HIV patient died while being test positive for covid19, they would be ruled covid19 death.

If a 70 year old COPD patient with CVD contracted covid19 ended up dying from pneumonia, this patient would be considered covid19 death, no? but is it?
 
VictorOfHungerGames said:
Why do we not distinguish death BY covid19 vs death WITH covid19?
Click to expand...

What I would like to know is why do you think we don’t?

I am not all certain that we don’t distinguish cause of death (that is a highly suspect premise) and I suspect that it just takes time to sort through all the data to make sure the information is correct. But I am not an epidemiologist or statistician so really I am just guessing. What do you think the reason is?
 
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The fact that you keep asking same question 100 times says something about you.

It frequently manifests itself as pneumonia. So by your definition no one actually died from Covid.
 
"Imagine two Medicare patients, one with COVID-19 and another one not, with pneumonia in the same ICU. Medicare will pay, for example, $10,000 for the pneumonia patient who doesn't have COVID-19 and $12,000 for the patient who does," he surmised. "The rationale is that this provides a sort of rough justice method of making sure that hospitals that get a lot of COVID-19 patients also get extra money from the government."

www.foxnews.com

Hospitals are paid more for Medicare patients confirmed or presumed to have coronavirus

If a Medicare patient is diagnosed – or even presumed – to have contracted coronavirus, termed COVID-19, hospitals across the United States are given more money from the federal government, economic assessments show. That amount can so much as triple if the patient requires a ventilator, raising...
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

The CDC guidance says that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”

“If we think it’s presumptive … we can go ahead and put down COVID-19,” Jensen said, “or even in some situations, even if it’s negative.” He pointed to the example of a 38-year-old man in Minnesota whose death was attributed to the coronavirus even though he tested negative.

www.factcheck.org

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org

Q: Are hospitals inflating the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths so they can be paid more? A: Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting. FULL QUESTION Are hospitals getting 13,000 per patient if...
www.factcheck.org www.factcheck.org

So... the tests aren't even positive yet still consider covid19 death? lol but somehow we are to believe other tests are fool proof and just take what ever number they throw at us at face vaule without question? lol okay...

I don't know mates... i just don't know... basically, it seems like the government set in place protocols to drive up the numbers.
 
Wait wait.... Brazilian and Italian presidents talked this over and decided to inflate their numbers? I thought Brazilian guy thought the whole thing is a hoax from the start. You make a strong point.
 
VictorOfHungerGames said:
Right. If you already have you mind made up that i am wrong and you are right, thats how my question will sound like.

That is not what I asked or what my question was.

Agains, seems like most of you who think my questions are absurd are not even reading any of my posts and just attack based on what you want to read.

Here is what happened.

I ran across videos and articles where government officials are admitting that even though the patient may have died of other causes, cancer, heart attack, or whatever, if the patient happened to have covid19 positive diagnosis, regardless of whether covid19 had any contribution or not, will be ruled covid19 death.

That doesnt bother you?

I am not refuting the fact that covid19 can exacerbate preexisting conditions just like any other infection. All you smart people know this im assuming.

My question again for the 100th time is,

Why do we not distinguish death BY covid19 vs death WITH covid19?
Click to expand...

Not to be a prick and answer a question with a question (I generally hate when people do this), but can death BY covid-19 even be defined?

What pathophys mechanism would you define as death BY covid-19?
 
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Well, Covid death = a perfectly healthy person under 65 who tested positive and died. Everyone else = non Covid.
 
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M0df said:
Well, Covid death = a perfectly healthy person under 65 who tested positive and died. Everyone else = non Covid.
Click to expand...
Although I sense sarcasm in your words, this isn't wrong. Not sure why age would be defined as 65 in this case but shouldn't that be the actual definition? If a perfectly healthy person contracted ebola, he will die. Hence, death by Ebola. Why would any other infection be different? If person died of covid19 complications with other cormorbidities, why is it only ruled as covid19 death? instead of the actual cormorbidity? I've been asking the same damn question haha

My aunt died of cancer. But what killed her was pneumonia. Was her cause of death just pneumonia?
 
Since you are trying to find innovative ways to prove your initial 'it is no worse than flu' argument, please ask the same question for flu.

Why don't they categorize death BY flu and death WITH flu? Just be consistent. You didn't deep dive into that question at all.

P.S. I actually understand what you are getting at. I don't know enough about epidemiology and infectious disease classifications. If you want to change death rates for plague, cholera, Spanish flu, normal flu, etc then that's a daunting task. You can even question death totals from wars as well.
 
Last edited:
M0df said:
Since you are trying to find innovative ways to prove your initial 'it is no worse than flu' argument, please ask the same question for flu.

Why don't they categorize death BY flu and death WITH flu? Just be consistent. You didn't deep dive into that question at all.
Click to expand...
Wrong, I did not say "it is no worse than flu".

Not sure if I ever directly compared it to the flu, I may have, but if I did, compared it's route of infection, symptoms and age group. Hence, shouldn't we shut down the economy for the flu as well? is what I asked. You know, staying consistent is important and all.

VA doc brought up a good point that Karens may not panic about the flu due to vaccines and what not but still they're both respiratory infections and it doesn't change the fact that people die from both. Some people were claiming saving lives are more important than economy and called me selfish for wanting to open up the economy. That's when I asked about the flu comparison. And then some weirdo claimed that I am a conspiracy theorist because I lost money... which I think he was just being delusional at that point haha
 
Per my conversation with ER doc friend

"If you died of some type of CVD or something else, WHILE having covid, then the primary cause would be CVD or whatever else it was. It you died as a result of covid pneumonia then we could put covid as the primary cause"

This seems like a logical and simple concept to understand.... Not sure why this would be questioned.... lol
 
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Ok. Back in early March, you asked what's all this fuss is about. Then you pointed out death totals for flu and asked why are we shutting down economy for Covid but not for flu. I am not OCD enough to go dig up your posts. It is what it is. Carry on.

Everyone is selfish. Why you clam up when someone said you have ulterior motive is beyond me. Yes, your point about your family business losing 150k in revenue is a valid point. There are other consequences too.

Again, answer the question why aren't flu deaths classified as died with Flu vs died from flu.
 
M0df said:
Ok. Back in early March, you asked what's all this fuss is about. Then you pointed out death totals for flu and asked why are we shutting down economy for Covid but not for flu. I am not OCD enough to go dig up your posts. It is what it is. Carry on.

Everyone is selfish. Why you clam up when someone said you have ulterior motive is beyond me. Yes, your point about your family business losing 150k in revenue is a valid point. There are other consequences too.

Again, answer the question why aren't flu deaths classified as died with Flu vs died from flu.
Click to expand...
You think that i am asking the question death by vs death with already knowing the answer? I do not.

I didnt know the flu was categorized that way. i always thought flu death was considered death by flu. Like my friend said, if there was an underlying cause then that would be the primary reason. If flu caused pneumonia and patient died then primary death would be the flu.

If you dont have an answer, just stop wasting time and stop answering my question with a question.
 
M0df said:
Ok. Back in early March, you asked what's all this fuss is about. Then you pointed out death totals for flu and asked why are we shutting down economy for Covid but not for flu. I am not OCD enough to go dig up your posts. It is what it is. Carry on.

Everyone is selfish. Why you clam up when someone said you have ulterior motive is beyond me. Yes, your point about your family business losing 150k in revenue is a valid point. There are other consequences too.

Again, answer the question why aren't flu deaths classified as died with Flu vs died from flu.
Click to expand...
I clam up when asked about alternative motive because.... i dont have one? Lol im just ignoring the dumb statements.
 
I only asked my question a couple of times and you get annoyed by it. You asked it a lot more but you keep asking.

Questions are great but you seem to have a problem providing any answers. Most people agreed that the extended lockdown was doing too much damage, too many unintended consequences. That's why states are reopening.

Of course, you are just asking innocent questions. Then why bring in your family into this.
 
M0df said:
I only asked my question a couple of times and you get annoyed by it. You asked it a lot more but you keep asking.

Questions are great but you seem to have a problem providing any answers. Most people agreed that the extended lockdown was doing too much damage, too many unintended consequences. That's why states are reopening.

Of course, you are just asking innocent questions. Then why bring in your family into this.
Click to expand...
Uhhh what? I talked about my family business because Karen kept insisting that economy is not as important as his fear of death by covid19. I can talk about my family. You cant. You can talk about your family if you want.

I dont get your point honestly. I think you are too smart for me.
 
Here is a great article that addresses your exact concern: How are COVID-19 deaths counted?

I am sorry it isn't a youtube video. I like youtube videos but for informative articles I prefer the written word.

One thing that I found interesting in the article is it addresses the challenge of determining true cause of death but says that in all likelihood deaths are being underreported, not over-reported.

Did I already do the "forrest through the trees" thing? Why question the methodology in death reporting? Do you seriously think that COVID deaths could possibly being misreported enough to make the exact amount matter? Even if the numbers aren't perfect (nothing in life ever is) is there any doubt the huge spike in deaths has been from COVID?
 
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I am glad you didn't post a YouTube video. It would have ruined his suggested/related video sequence.
 
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M0df said:
I am glad you didn't post a YouTube video. It would have ruined his suggested/related video sequence.
Click to expand...

I HATE when my suggestions get ruined!

Although recently this one showed up very randomly and I loved it:

 
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Don't worry. I expect next chapter of Dan "Lazy" Brown novel to be out tonight to help you out.
 
VictorOfHungerGames said:
You think that i am asking the question death by vs death with already knowing the answer? I do not.

I didnt know the flu was categorized that way. i always thought flu death was considered death by flu. Like my friend said, if there was an underlying cause then that would be the primary reason. If flu caused pneumonia and patient died then primary death would be the flu.

If you dont have an answer, just stop wasting time and stop answering my question with a question.
Click to expand...
State dependant. Mine allows listing any contributing diagnoses
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
State dependant. Mine allows listing any contributing diagnoses
Click to expand...

This is still going on? I remember stating this exact same thing like 2 weeks ago. I've had him ignored since then, but I'm assuming he's still going on with that youtube video from Illinois asking how COVID deaths are counted.
 
TheBlaah said:
This is still going on? I remember stating this exact same thing like 2 weeks ago. I've had him ignored since then, but I'm assuming he's still going on with that youtube video from Illinois asking how COVID deaths are counted.
Click to expand...
Oh snap. I didnt know you can do that! How do I put you on ignore? Youre annoying as fck too.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
State dependant. Mine allows listing any contributing diagnoses
Click to expand...
Ah ic. How do you list them? Primary and secondary? I would assume you would still have to determine whether main reason was flu or something else?
 
VictorOfHungerGames said:
Oh snap. I didnt know you can do that! How do I put you on ignore? Youre annoying as fck too.
Click to expand...

Click the username. Click ignore. Done.

Personally I hate ignore though - you still see that the person posted, you just don't see the post. It actually makes it worse for me because once I see that they posted I want to see what they posted, lol

Still it's a good option for posters that annoy you.

No thoughts on the article I posted that addressed your question about death by covid vs death with covid?
 
owlegrad said:
Click the username. Click ignore. Done.

Personally I hate ignore though - you still see that the person posted, you just don't see the post. It actually makes it worse for me because once I see that they posted I want to see what they posted, lol

Still it's a good option for posters that annoy you.

No thoughts on the article I posted that addressed your question about death by covid vs death with covid?
Click to expand...
Sorry your hump buddy kept on posting some BS and didnt realized you posted something tangible to read. Ill read it later.
 
Ah the best part of a conversation. When the person you are conversing with resorts to name calling. So productive.

Anyway I can't wait to get your feedback on why covid deaths are counted the way the are. It's a pretty interesting read and I for one feel a little better informed than I was before I read it. So thank you for inspiring me to read it.
 
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Alleged. But seriously with or from flu?
 
owlegrad said:
Here is a great article that addresses your exact concern: How are COVID-19 deaths counted?

I am sorry it isn't a youtube video. I like youtube videos but for informative articles I prefer the written word.

One thing that I found interesting in the article is it addresses the challenge of determining true cause of death but says that in all likelihood deaths are being underreported, not over-reported.

Did I already do the "forrest through the trees" thing? Why question the methodology in death reporting? Do you seriously think that COVID deaths could possibly being misreported enough to make the exact amount matter? Even if the numbers aren't perfect (nothing in life ever is) is there any doubt the huge spike in deaths has been from COVID?
Click to expand...

The entire debate...in one article. Nice find.

Haters will say the 20% autopsy rate means covid deaths were over-reported. Around we go...
 
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lane one said:
The entire debate...in one article. Nice find.

Haters will say the 20% autopsy rate means covid deaths were over-reported. Around we go...
Click to expand...

I appreciate how the article addresses the factors that lead to both over and under reporting. So pick which side you are on and then focus on those parts of the article exclusively. ;)
 
Americans have moved on

Time for SDN to move on too?
 
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owlegrad said:
Ah the best part of a conversation. When the person you are conversing with resorts to name calling. So productive.

Anyway I can't wait to get your feedback on why covid deaths are counted the way the are. It's a pretty interesting read and I for one feel a little better informed than I was before I read it. So thank you for inspiring me to read it.
Click to expand...
Interesting read.

So basically we dont know for sure is the answer im getting from the article. I suppose were gonna just have to live with that

It just disheartening to know that we shut down the country based on these misguided data. The article mentions colorado reporting all cases to be covid19 death whether by or with covid19. i just find it barbaric to have this done this way. My opinion. Good night.
 
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wagrxm2000 said:
Americans have moved on

Time for SDN to move on too?
Click to expand...

Yea - I agree. This is how Americans roll.

“We’re over it”

I think it has something to do with our collective attention span and ability to think critically.
 
Last edited:
JustFillIt said:
Yea - I agree. This is how Americans roll.

“We’re over it”

I think it has something to do with our collective attention span and ability to think critically.
Click to expand...
Clearly. Theyre now on to rioting and looting.
 
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VictorOfHungerGames said:
Ah ic. How do you list them? Primary and secondary? I would assume you would still have to determine whether main reason was flu or something else?
Click to expand...
Correct. Primary cause of death then up to I think 4 contributing factors (I haven't filled one out in years).

So if someone has an MI and dies, I can put HTN, DM, tobacco use as contributing to the MI.
 
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VictorOfHungerGames said:
Interesting read.

So basically we dont know for sure is the answer im getting from the article. I suppose were gonna just have to live with that

It just disheartening to know that we shut down the country based on these misguided data. The article mentions colorado reporting all cases to be covid19 death whether by or with covid19. i just find it barbaric to have this done this way. My opinion. Good night.
Click to expand...
We shut down the country to prevent an Italy here. Based on what we knew at the time, fully justified.

In hindsight it might have been an overreaction, it will be very hard to ever know for sure.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
We shut down the country to prevent an Italy here. Based on what we knew at the time, fully justified.

In hindsight it might have been an overreaction, it will be very hard to ever know for sure.
Click to expand...
I somewhat agree. For places like NY and NJ, this would've made sense but not sure shutting down the entire country was justified.
 
JustFillIt said:
It’s not rioting and looting. It’s “protesting in honor”.

Looks like a bunch of kids with nothing better to do honestly. We should be using the fire hoses.
Click to expand...
Yeah, then they're gonna use the civil rights movement excuse. lol

I actually understand the protest during the civil rights movement. There was institutionalized racism. But now? rioting based on an isolated incident where the cop got too excited? And even before any evidence comes out. Purely basing this on ONE video... it's just sad.
 
All these protestors are going to cause another surge in cases....

Don't they know how to social distance protest?

Hmm
 
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