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People that make their own lives harder to use it as an excuse

Alexander99

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    I have talked to some people that use the fact that they work full-time or close to full-time as an excuse for mediocre grades (not just premeds.) My question is, if these people have no children, why don't they just take out student loans to pay for college instead of working? Isn't that the point of federally subsidized student loans--so that a student can go to school full-time without having to work?

    For example, I have very little money but my cost of living is pretty much paid for by loans and grants. Now, I could go out and start working 40 hours a week and complain about how it's so hard to get good grades but I'd be the one that's choosing to put myself in that situation. I feel that if a person wants to work so much so that they don't have any debt, that's their perrogative but they shouldn't complain about it or use it as an excuse; afterall, it's their choice. What am I missing here?

    Alexander
     

    bcosmos

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      You are missing the fact that grants specifically but loans as well are need based. If I am affluent, but my family supports me nada financially, then I don't get grant or subsidized student loans. So it's not quite as simple as you make it sound...it's certainly a bit more nuanced than you characterization....
       

      Alexander99

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        Actually, subsidized loans are need-based but you can always get unsubsidized federal student loans to cover the amount of your tuition and living expenses no matter how much your parents make (as long as you don't go to some ridiculously expensive school.) The only difference between the two loans is that if it's subsidized, the government will pay your interest while you're in school while if it's unsubsidized, the interest accrues (you still don't have to pay until you're out of school.) These loans are still very low interest (~3-4%) and you don't have to start paying them back until you have been out of school for 6 months.

        Why not consider getting these loans instead of working?
         
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        darkcity998

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          also, someone may have to support sick loved ones while in school, not only for him/herself. federally subsidized for all? no. some people can only get unsubsidized or private loans only.
           

          Alexander99

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            Originally posted by darkcity998
            also, someone may have to support sick loved ones while in school, not only for him/herself. federally subsidized for all? no. some people can only get unsubsidized or private loans only.

            I'm sure these circumstances you talk about are the exception and not the rule. The ones I've talked to seem intent on having money so they can have a nicer car, buy nicer clothing, etc.
             

            Cerberus

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              Originally posted by Alexander99
              Actually, subsidized loans are need-based but you can always get unsubsidized federal student loans to cover the amount of your tuition and living expenses no matter how much your parents make (as long as you don't go to some ridiculously expensive school.) The only difference between the two loans is that if it's subsidized, the government will pay your interest while you're in school while if it's unsubsidized, the interest accrues (you still don't have to pay until you're out of school.) These loans are still very low interest (~3-4%) and you don't have to start paying them back until you have been out of school for 6 months.

              Why not consider getting these loans instead of working?
              \

              You are only eligable for unsubsidized loans if your parents fail a credit check while applying for a PLUS loan. If their credit is ok then you have to get the PLUS loan which is in your parents name and must be paid on almost immediately.
               

              Alexander99

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                Originally posted by Cerberus
                \

                You are only eligable for unsubsidized loans if your parents fail a credit check while applying for a PLUS loan. If their credit is ok then you have to get the PLUS loan which is in your parents name and must be paid on almost immediately.

                That's not true. According to the U.S. Department of Education's web site, the unsubsidized federal Stafford loans are NOT need based. If your parents happen to fail a credit check for the PLUS loans, then you will get ADDITIONAL unsubsidized Stafford loans. I'm not sure where you are getting your information but you've been misled.
                 

                superdevil

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                  I feel that if a person wants to work so much so that they don't have any debt, that's their perrogative but they shouldn't complain about it or use it as an excuse; afterall, it's their choice. What am I missing here?
                  well, what you're "missing" is that some people have a strong preference not to go into debt, and the job may cause their grades to suffer. i obviously don't know the specific people you know, but they're entitled to at least some bitching, i think. after all, there's something to be said for all that sacrifice/delayed-gratification nonsense, even if third-parties such as yourself think it leads to unacceptable amounts of complaining.

                  personally, i'd take a grumpy, debt-free 3.4 over a beer-swilling, red-ink-drowning 3.8. like you said, though, its their perogative.

                  just two more cents in the fountain...
                   

                  Gleevec

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                    Originally posted by Alexander99
                    I'm sure these circumstances you talk about are the exception and not the rule. The ones I've talked to seem intent on having money so they can have a nicer car, buy nicer clothing, etc.

                    I think the people you talk to who simply want a nicer car, clothing, etc are the exception not the rule. It really depends on the type of person though, and most of the people on aid that I know are just doing it to make ends meet or avoid greater debt.

                    A lot of grant packages require working as well, and loans simply are a horrible way to pay for an education when grants are available. The unsubsidized loans are absolutely horrible in comparison to grants (i agree that the subsidized loans are good, but they only go up to a point). Doing the math, you rack up ridiculous debt quite quickly when you should be starting your normal financial life.

                    So I think those that choose grants + work + lower GPA + a bit of whining are really smart in comparison to those who finance their education with unsubsidized loeans-- at least when considering the long-term.
                     

                    Alexander99

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                      I don't see how unsubsidized loans are horrible. 3-4% interest is basically equal to the rate of inflation so in essence, you are just paying back the money you borrowed. In addition, you don't have to pay the loans back until you're making real money so they don't affect you at all until you've started your career. I've taken out some unsubsidized loans so I don't have to work so much and I don't feel it's foolish at all--it lets me get the grades I need to get.
                       

                      evines

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                        A student can always get unsubsidized federal loans, but only up to a certain amount, something around 5500 per year, which isn't going to cover living expenses. So assuming no parental support, one would either have to get some other type of loan(s) or get a job.
                        I think the point Alexander99 is trying to make is that there are many of our peers who CHOOSE to work when they really don't have to, and then bitch about it when it affects their grades, free time, etc. These are the truly annoying ones, the people who can't live without their cell phone, new car, better than adequate apartment, designer clothes, best computer, and 500 channels on their widescreen plasma TV. When I hear one of these types complain, I just want to slap 'em.
                         

                        DannGee

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                          Originally posted by Alexander99
                          Actually, subsidized loans are need-based but you can always get unsubsidized federal student loans to cover the amount of your tuition and living expenses no matter how much your parents make (as long as you don't go to some ridiculously expensive school.) The only difference between the two loans is that if it's subsidized, the government will pay your interest while you're in school while if it's unsubsidized, the interest accrues (you still don't have to pay until you're out of school.) These loans are still very low interest (~3-4%) and you don't have to start paying them back until you have been out of school for 6 months.

                          Why not consider getting these loans instead of working?

                          that's actually not true- when you submit your FAFSA, a 'expected contribution' is calculated and subtracted from the estimated cost of attendance. For example, due to my parent's income, unsubsidized loans cover ~75% of tuition and none of my living expenses. I have to take out alternative loans and work for the rest.
                           

                          Alexander99

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                            I'm glad someone else (evines) have noticed these people (work 40+ hours a week for that BMW type) too and feel the same as I do.

                            As for your situation DannGee, I feel for you. What I want to know is, do many parents out there not feel that supplying their children with an education is a part of their responsibilities as parents?

                            It really makes me mad because I know of a lot of parents that take their yearly vacation, buy a vacation home, etc and then when their children are about to hit college, they complain about how expensive it's going to be and how they can't afford it. Perhaps if they started saving up (I believe it's called a college fund) when the children were born, it wouldn't be an issue. I know for a fact that I'm going to start saving up for my kids' college tuition as soon as I'm in a situation to do so (even before they're born.)
                             
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                            Gleevec

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                              Originally posted by Alexander99
                              I don't see how unsubsidized loans are horrible. 3-4% interest is basically equal to the rate of inflation so in essence, you are just paying back the money you borrowed. In addition, you don't have to pay the loans back until you're making real money so they don't affect you at all until you've started your career. I've taken out some unsubsidized loans so I don't have to work so much and I don't feel it's foolish at all--it lets me get the grades I need to get.

                              Well, it depends on how much your undergrad/med school counts. We were shown some charts comparing the debt profiles of someone who didnt take loans, someone who took subsidized loans, and someone who took unsubsidized loans at a couple of the med schools (quite similar to some of the charts showed to me during the undergrad admissions process, though I dont have as clear a recollection of that). There is a huge difference between subsidized and unsubsidized loans-- and since its a percentage its much greater if you are borrowing more (as expected). So depending on where you go to school, 4% can be trifles, or it can be a heck of a lot of money accumulating in debt over a period of time. Also, most people dont pay back debt in year 1 of working, it takes em several years of increased debt due to interest rates to do that.
                               

                              calcrew14

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                                Better take alex's advice, dudes. Subsidized or unsubsidized, I would take out the loans as much as I could. Why would I try to cripple my azz with those relatively mcjobs :)D ) when I have a kind of got it made already? Besides, I may not even have this much time to spend all those $ when they come easier.

                                To cover loans that need to be cosigned, and in case one is going to turn an SUV over prematurely, buy some life insurance for accidental demise, dude. Don't plan to take a vacation in Bagdad anytime soon, though. No insurance would want to have any business to do with terrorists or their actions.

                                At least a portion of the loan is interest free, I think.
                                Congratulation! Enjoy the student-doctorship while it lasts,dudes. :cool: :thumbup: :smuggrin: :clap:
                                 

                                bullhorn

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                                  Federal loans have both annual and aggregate limit amounts. In many cases of private institutions, these limits pale compared to actual expenses. I think the idea of 'just take out loans' is making something very complicated, way too simplistic. Outside of everyone's individual experiences, almost every school that offers federal grant require that the student also have a federal work-study job(which is like grant also since you don't pay back what you earn). In most cases that means at least 10-15hr/week working instead of studying or whatever. Let's not even talk about getting alternative loans. In my experience, finding a qualified cosigner amongst the poor is like finding a needle in the haystack. People have long since abused or maxed their credit/debt ratio. Furthermore, in my case my mother actually f**ked up my credit BEFORE I even got to really use it for myself. lol So, let's keep it real and understand every situation is very different.
                                   

                                  Thundrstorm

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                                    Originally posted by Alexander99
                                    I have talked to some people that use the fact that they work full-time or close to full-time as an excuse for mediocre grades (not just premeds.) My question is, if these people have no children, why don't they just take out student loans to pay for college instead of working? Isn't that the point of federally subsidized student loans--so that a student can go to school full-time without having to work?

                                    For example, I have very little money but my cost of living is pretty much paid for by loans and grants. Now, I could go out and start working 40 hours a week and complain about how it's so hard to get good grades but I'd be the one that's choosing to put myself in that situation. I feel that if a person wants to work so much so that they don't have any debt, that's their perrogative but they shouldn't complain about it or use it as an excuse; afterall, it's their choice. What am I missing here?

                                    Alexander

                                    Lots of student who work during school do so in order to stay in school, not just to be debt free. As others have mentioned, non-need based aid is not exactly abundant for those people whose parents make quite a bit of money but do not contribute to their education. Fortunately, I have enough scholarships that I can get loans to cover the rest of my education because my parents do not contribute. Therefore, I don't have to work full time. I do, however, work part time (and I have worked as many as 3 jobs simultaneously during undergrad) to pay for food, travel home for the holidays, clothes, medical school applications, etc. Believe me, I don't work to make my life harder or compensate for bad grades, which I don't have btw. Rather, I work out of necessity. I also happen to feel that I have the responsibility to pay for my own luxuries. What right do you have to assume someone's reason for working during school? Don't you think they would like the option of having more time to study and get stellar grades? If I had to work full time, I know I wouldn't have the grades that I do now. That's not an excuse; it's just reality. If you have 40 hours of work and 16-20 hours of class, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time to study. It can be done, but not everyone can pull a 4.0 in that situation.

                                    Clearly, you don't have a financial situation that requires you to work; Be happy about that, but don't judge others who don't enjoy a similar situation.
                                     

                                    Thundrstorm

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                                      Originally posted by evines
                                      I think the point Alexander99 is trying to make is that there are many of our peers who CHOOSE to work when they really don't have to, and then bitch about it when it affects their grades, free time, etc. These are the truly annoying ones, the people who can't live without their cell phone, new car, better than adequate apartment, designer clothes, best computer, and 500 channels on their widescreen plasma TV. When I hear one of these types complain, I just want to slap 'em.

                                      wow, I don't know anyone like that. The people I know who have luxuries like that just get mommy and daddy to pay for their toys.
                                       

                                      calcrew14

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                                        Originally posted by bullhorn
                                        ........... Furthermore, in my case my mother actually f**ked up my credit BEFORE I even got to really use it for myself. lol So, let's keep it real and understand every situation is very different.

                                        :eek: :wow: :idea:

                                        You might want to look around for some rich dudes who don't really need the loan, offer to pay him a % or two, or ? above the going rate. It might work.

                                        That's one of the reason why I recommend anyone to take out as much as possible even without any need. You can turn it around for xtra $ on somebody like you?

                                        :smuggrin: :love:
                                         

                                        evines

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                                          Originally posted by Thundrstorm
                                          wow, I don't know anyone like that. The people I know who have luxuries like that just get mommy and daddy to pay for their toys.
                                          Unfortunately, Iv'e known one too many. I know a guy who actually dropped out of school (this is not a joke) to pay for the 15,000 dollar sound system he put in his GMC Jimmy. The system was sweet though . . . but he only listened to country music on it:confused: .
                                           
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                                          Alexander99

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                                            Originally posted by Thundrstorm
                                            Lots of student who work during school do so in order to stay in school, not just to be debt free. As others have mentioned, non-need based aid is not exactly abundant for those people whose parents make quite a bit of money but do not contribute to their education. Fortunately, I have enough scholarships that I can get loans to cover the rest of my education because my parents do not contribute. Therefore, I don't have to work full time. I do, however, work part time (and I have worked as many as 3 jobs simultaneously during undergrad) to pay for food, travel home for the holidays, clothes, medical school applications, etc. Believe me, I don't work to make my life harder or compensate for bad grades, which I don't have btw. Rather, I work out of necessity. I also happen to feel that I have the responsibility to pay for my own luxuries. What right do you have to assume someone's reason for working during school? Don't you think they would like the option of having more time to study and get stellar grades? If I had to work full time, I know I wouldn't have the grades that I do now. That's not an excuse; it's just reality. If you have 40 hours of work and 16-20 hours of class, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time to study. It can be done, but not everyone can pull a 4.0 in that situation.

                                            Clearly, you don't have a financial situation that requires you to work; Be happy about that, but don't judge others who don't enjoy a similar situation.

                                            As a matter of fact, the grants I receive cover 100% of my school fees (tuition) while subsidized loans cover my living expenses. I still work part-time. That should tell you the financial situation I am in.

                                            Just the fact that you work out of necessity does not mean that most/all students do so. I'll stick by my guns and say that many students work not out of necessity but because they have expenses they could live without (cell phone, relatively new car, etc.)
                                             

                                            calcrew14

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                                              Originally posted by evines
                                              Unfortunately, Iv'e known one too many. I know a guy who actually dropped out of school (this is not a joke) to pay for the 15,000 dollar sound system he put in his GMC Jimmy. The system was sweet though . . . but he only listened to country music on it:confused: .

                                              Me think that your luck was not that bad. You always have a right to befriend him, make an enemy out of him, do some business with him, ignore him or even rolleyes: him anyway you wish. Take your picks. :)
                                               

                                              Thundrstorm

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                                                Originally posted by Alexander99
                                                As a matter of fact, the grants I receive cover 100% of my school fees (tuition) while subsidized loans cover my living expenses. I still work part-time. That should tell you the financial situation I am in.

                                                Just the fact that you work out of necessity does not mean that most/all students do so. I'll stick by my guns and say that many students work not out of necessity but because they have expenses they could live without (cell phone, relatively new car, etc.)

                                                I see your point, but that's not what you said in your original post, which is what I was replying to. You were referring to students who work so they can graduate debt free. Anyway, it's someone's perogative to work for a car or cell phone, but, I agree, that's no excuse for bad grades.
                                                 

                                                CJLaw

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                                                  The point of this thread is proposterous. The OP is slamming individuals who choose to work to finace their own education, rather than be subsidized by the government for 4 years. I would call that admirable--not annoying.

                                                  I think the underlying tone of this thread is one of a pre-med gunner complaining because he can't fathom why someone with a 3.3 who worked a hard days pay for 4 years is getting just as much consideration as his non-working, government leaching, 4.0 self.

                                                  Fact is that working for a living builds character, matures the indivdual, and grants one with a feeling of self-reliance. These are the unheralded x-factors that adcoms are looking for--and I think the OP and others in this thread are jealous because they don't have it.

                                                  Gunners with 4.0 GPA's and generic pre-med EC's like pre-med club, peer tutoring, and hospital volunteering are a dime a dozen. Give me a person with a 3.3 GPA who worked 40 hrs/week for 4 years and was involved in community activities and organizations, any day! And it looks like the adcoms agree with me.
                                                   

                                                  DannGee

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                                                    Originally posted by Alexander99


                                                    As for your situation DannGee, I feel for you. What I want to know is, do many parents out there not feel that supplying their children with an education is a part of their responsibilities as parents?

                                                    i don't think it's my right to have them pay for my education. sure, it'd be nice, but ultimately it's my responsibility as someone who wants an education.

                                                    believe it or not, i take satisfaction in knowing that i financed college by myself- and, at times, it's certainly made me take it more seriously than if it had been given to me.

                                                    i think it's ridiculous to suggest that there are people that would work full-time JUST for an excuse to get bad grades- let me get this straight- there are people that are lazy enough not to work to improve their grades (say, by spending 4-5 hours a week practicing with a tudor/TA/prof), and their solution is to get a job and work 40 hours a week?
                                                     

                                                    evines

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                                                      Originally posted by CJ2Doc
                                                      The point of this thread is proposterous. The OP is slamming individuals who choose to work to finace their own education, rather than be subsidized by the government for 4 years. I would call that admirable--not annoying.

                                                      Fact is that working for a living builds character, matures the indivdual, and grants one with a feeling of self-reliance. These are the unheralded x-factors that adcoms are looking for--and I think the OP and others in this thread are jealous because they don't have it.
                                                      I've been silent long enough. This thread is getting ******ed. The OP is not bashing those that choose to work their way through school, or must work their way through school, he is bashing those that choose to work and then complain about it.
                                                      And sure, working builds character, yada yada. But aren't we in school? I want to learn while in school, and working hinders that unless you are lucky enough to get a job that is closely related to your studies. Working through college was very rare until recently. Summer jobs? Sure. But while taking classes? Nope. I think this trend illustrates that people don't take college as seriously as they used to.
                                                      i think it's ridiculous to suggest that there are people that would work full-time JUST for an excuse to get bad grades
                                                      Who suggested this? Talk about building up a straw man . . .:rolleyes: I have more to say but I'm hungry.
                                                       

                                                      japhy

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                                                        evines is right about it being a recent phenomenon that people work while going to school. But to say that people aren't taking school seriously is ridiculous. The biggest reason people are working is school has continued to get more and more expensive. Parents have fewer resources to pay, schools are receiving less and less in government aid and tuition continues to escalate ever upward.

                                                        Most people I know that work and got to school take school much more seriously than those that do not work. They have a sense of sacrifice and they tend to work very hard at their classes. They simply do not have as much time to put towards homework. I have talked about this with several adcom members and they like seeing a student work 20-30 hours a week for many reasons: it shows they can handle multiple tasks, it opens up new opportunities and it shows dedication.

                                                        As for the assertion that it is a parents role to pay for college, I call bull****. If parents have the resources and, more importantly, want to pay for school that is one thing. Once your 18 you are legal and you are on your own, deal with it.
                                                         

                                                        evines

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                                                          I am back and with a full tummy.
                                                          As for the assertion that it is a parents role to pay for college, I call bull****.
                                                          Me too, although I have every intention of funding my kids' schooling.
                                                          evines is right about it being a recent phenomenon that people work while going to school. But to say that people aren't taking school seriously is ridiculous.
                                                          I said they don't take school AS seriously as that used to, and I stand by that. It is practically expected that every kid go to college now, and I am undecided as to how I feel about that. An educated public is nice, but where does it end? If the progression continues, a college education won't be the pre-req for most jobs (another somewhat recent trend), the pre-req will be a PhD. And then what? I digress . . .back to the point at hand.
                                                          More kids go to college now than used to. And I don't think there is a correlation between the # of kids in college, and the # that take it seriously. So as more kids go to college because of societal pressure, the % that take it seriously decreases. Also, from my experience, it seems the type that work through college when they don't have to are more prone to being the type that are in school to get the diploma. For them, the diploma is the goal, learning is not. So why not make a few bucks on the side, as long as they get the diploma? US colleges are watered down with these types (with the exception of a few elite schools).
                                                           

                                                          DrBodacious

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                                                            Originally posted by bcosmos
                                                            You are missing the fact that grants specifically but loans as well are need based. If I am affluent, but my family supports me nada financially, then I don't get grant or subsidized student loans. So it's not quite as simple as you make it sound...it's certainly a bit more nuanced than you characterization....

                                                            I feel sorry for people who's parents have money but won't at least lend thier kids money so they don't have to bust thier ass full time and compromise thier education. I mean if you make your kid work 10-15 hrs a week w a full coarse load that's teaching your kid responsibility. Try to get your parents to write the med schools you're applying to saying that they are dinguses and didn't support your aspirations to become a doctor. It is just rediculous because they obviously know that the reason you can't get loans is because your parents make money and your parent won't give support. Awful catch-22.
                                                             

                                                            Alexander99

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                                                              Originally posted by japhy

                                                              As for the assertion that it is a parents role to pay for college, I call bull****. If parents have the resources and, more importantly, want to pay for school that is one thing. Once your 18 you are legal and you are on your own, deal with it.

                                                              I imagine then that you find the concept of starting a college fund for one's children to be ridiculous and that feeding and housing a child is a parent's only responsibility.

                                                              The fact is, in our society today, a college degree is the very minimum level of education you need to make a decent living. So yes, I think it's a parent's responsibility to give their children the bare minimum to succeed in life; this includes paying for college.

                                                              Sure, in the 1950's, a person could pump gas or work in a factory straight out of high school and support their family. During those days, I could see why once you turned 18 you'd be on your own. People also commonly started families in their early 20's. Obviously much has changed since then. I find it ridiculous to maintain the same attitudes when obviously we live in a much different world.
                                                               
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                                                              Alexander99

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                                                                Originally posted by DrBodacious
                                                                I feel sorry for people who's parents have money but won't at least lend thier kids money so they don't have to bust thier ass full time and compromise thier education. I mean if you make your kid work 10-15 hrs a week w a full coarse load that's teaching your kid responsibility. Try to get your parents to write the med schools you're applying to saying that they are dinguses and didn't support your aspirations to become a doctor. It is just rediculous because they obviously know that the reason you can't get loans is because your parents make money and your parent won't give support. Awful catch-22.

                                                                I think the way the system is set up indicates that the government believes it is a parent's responsibility to fund their child's higher education (believe me, I don't believe everything the government says is right but I agree with them in this case.) They basically expect people who make decent money to pay for college.

                                                                This really sucks for people who have selfish parents and the government is basically punishing the student for having evil parents.
                                                                 

                                                                pureofheart

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                                                                  i'm a foreign student at a very expensive ivy league school. during my sophomore year, the finanical aid policy changed such that i received very little aid. i worked close to 20 hours a week ever since because of it.

                                                                  please don't judge others unless you have tried to look at things from others' perspective.
                                                                   

                                                                  Skaterbabe74

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                                                                    Originally posted by Alexander99

                                                                    What I want to know is, do many parents out there not feel that supplying their children with an education is a part of their responsibilities as parents?

                                                                    It really makes me mad because I know of a lot of parents that take their yearly vacation, buy a vacation home, etc and then when their children are about to hit college, they complain about how expensive it's going to be and how they can't afford it. Perhaps if they started saving up (I believe it's called a college fund) when the children were born, it wouldn't be an issue. I know for a fact that I'm going to start saving up for my kids' college tuition as soon as I'm in a situation to do so (even before they're born.)

                                                                    I think you'd be surprised at how many parents still feel that paying for college isn't part of their responsibility as a parent. Many of the parent's that are in their mid-50's were raised to believe that by the time you're 16/17 you're responsible for most of your own expenses and by the time you graduate high school you're responsible for all of your own expenses. Many of these people didn't go to college themselves because it wasn't necessary for making a decent living like it is now. Other times, the kids have made mistakes in the past (in the parent's eyes anyway) and the parent's are trying to teach responsibility and that's why they don't pay for college. In my case, it's both. My dad had to save the money to buy his first car, paid for the few college classes he did take, and was married and a tool & die apprentice designer by the time he was 19. As a result it took major convincing to even get him to loan me the money to buy my first car, and while he was supposed to be helping contribute to my college education I had a trust fund from a great aunt to cover some of that. When the trust ran out he wouldn't help because I didn't use the trust in the way he thought I should have. Basically I didn't major in something he deemed "worthy" of the trust, instead I "majored" in dance and figure skating at the time. As a result I'm paying for school completely on my own.

                                                                    I have a full-aid package now thanks to having gotten laid off from my job almost a year ago, but prior to that I had to work 30 odd hours a week just to make ends meet. The "problem" with aid is that if you make more than 12 grand/yr (at most public schools anyway) you don't qualify for anything but unsub loans - that barely covers tuition and fees. Then you still have to find money to pay for rent, food, utilities, etc and unless you have a job where you make like 30+K a year you really struggle. Part of my aid package is work study, so I still have to work in order to pay my bills (and I'm barely doing that, even without a car which i can't possibly afford). My grades do suffer at times, but not nearly as much as they did when I was working 30 hrs/week in a retail job where I couldn't study at all lol. I will have major debt when I graduate ugrad tho, and need full aid for med school as well just to make things work. I'm not looking forward to graduating med school with probably 200K to pay back but I'm doing what I need to do. I just hope I don't have to include my father's info for med school since I haven't lived with him since I was 13, let alone talked to him in like 3 years now. My mom's info won't make much difference in aid for med school...his would.

                                                                    However, if I could somehow manage to get the grades I need (or even some semblance of the grades I need) without taking out all of the loans I would work more in order to try and save myself some grief when I finally do get out there into the "real" world, and work instead. I truly admire those who are managing to work and go to school full-time, and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to take out the loans if they can prevent it (even if it does lower their grades a bit). I do agree that those who really don't have to work but work anyway to get the cool cars and the expensive clothes and vacations and then complain about grades don't have the right, but I think those people are far and few between. Most just don't want to have to make those $2000 monthly payments for the first 10 years after they graduate, and I don't begrudge them that. I wish there was a way I could avoid that myself lol.

                                                                    As far as the phenomenon of working while taking classes meaning that people aren't taking college as seriously though that's just ridiculous. Would I prefer not having to work so that I could just concentrate on my classes? Heck yeah....but I can't. I can't pay my rent if I do that. Neither can most other people I know that work while taking classes too. College is way more expensive then it was even 10 years ago. As a result of prices going up, and family income going down, more and more people are having to work just to make ends meet while taking classes. Does this mean they don't take school seriously? No way...they take school just as seriously if not more seriously than the person who is having their education paid for them and don't have to work because it's their money that's being spent. Not just their parents, and/or the government's.

                                                                    And as far as more kids in general not taking college as seriously as they used to I don't completely agree with that either. Until fairly recently girls only went to college to meet a husband. Did they take classes seriously? I don't think so....Now it's "expected" you'll go to college cuz you can't get a job without a degree. The reason behind people not taking college seriously has shifted but I don't think the phenomenon itself has increased drastically.

                                                                    --Jessica, UCCS
                                                                     

                                                                    DrWuStar

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                                                                      Originally posted by bullhorn
                                                                      Furthermore, in my case my mother actually f**ked up my credit BEFORE I even got to really use it for myself. lol So, let's keep it real and understand every situation is very different.

                                                                      that sucks bullhorn. i believe this can be corrected though if you want to make the effort. a good friend of mine had a similar situation, and she resolved it somehow. i don't know the details, but i think the agency you would want to talk to is the same one for if someone steals your identity. black marks from someone else's irresponsibility can be removed from your credit history. i am sure of it.

                                                                      an interesting twist to all of this is that the students who need a little bit of finacial aid - middle class kids whose parents went to college and live a nice life, but can't afford to foot the whole bill - tend to know a lot about financial aid, while those students who are maybe the first in their family to go to college, need a lot of financial aid, and whose parents don't know much about the college process, tend to be more in the dark about their options. i was in the second group and did not really understand the financial aid process and did not get much help with it. i did not realize that you could take out more loans than your initial financial aid letter gave you or that you could negotiate with the financial aid office for more grants, etc. i got better at getting what i needed as my college years went on, but at first, i really got screwed. i worked a lot in college, and it did affect my grades. if i had known then what i know now, i would have taken more loans and worked less. but i never thought of that, and no one ever told me it was an option. i was pretty ignorant about how the system worked, and i think that is true of a lot of people who need financial aid the most.
                                                                       

                                                                      ItsGavinC

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                                                                        Originally posted by Alexander99
                                                                        Now, I could go out and start working 40 hours a week and complain about how it's so hard to get good grades but I'd be the one that's choosing to put myself in that situation. I feel that if a person wants to work so much so that they don't have any debt, that's their perrogative but they shouldn't complain about it or use it as an excuse; afterall, it's their choice. What am I missing here?

                                                                        Alexander

                                                                        You aren't missing anything other than the fact that the people you are referencing actually go out and do it.

                                                                        You, on the other hand, are content to take jabs at them.
                                                                         

                                                                        Alexander99

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                                                                          Originally posted by elin
                                                                          why do you care anyway? why don't you worry about yourself and your situation?

                                                                          Were you raised in this country? If so, it's a shame you don't understand anything about the United States. The point of our country is that you have many freedoms, not the least of which is the freedom to express your opinion.

                                                                          To answer your question of why I care, it's because I'm tired of people that complain when their circumstances are primarily due to their own actions (this is not the only example.) I realize I should have simplified it for people like you and state:

                                                                          "I am tired of people that complain it's too hard to work and go to school when it's obvious they are working to buy things they don't need or because they simply choose not to take out loans."

                                                                          Did I ever say that everyone who works a lot while going to school is doing so by choice? No. I realize now though that the issue with getting student loans is more complex and I forgot all about the students with parents that have money but refuse to pay.
                                                                           

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                                                                            Clearly, it is certainly not as simple as "take out more loans" when it comes to paying for college, even if your family is poor and you theoretically should qualify. I go to a state U where I am fortunate to have a scholarship and grants that pay for most of my tuition and fees; however, when it comes to books, rent, utilities, etc., if I didn't work (~10-20 hrs/wk during classes, + close to full time during breaks--nothing crazy) I wouldn't be able to pay my bills. My college offered me some subsidized loans, which I took, but this year they offered my mom a PLUS loan and I had to apply for a special exception to get more unsubsidized loans since my mom is unable to take out the loan (she filed for bankruptcy last year). I am still waiting to hear if I can get more loan money or not; my school doesn't have to provide me with this money, and they may decide not to or insist that my mother take out all available PLUS loan money first even though there is no way she could afford this (my mom just started a job making ~$10/hr, after being unemployed for 1 1/2 years). Even when she was employed at a job making slightly better money when I started college, the government expected my "family" (i.e. her, since there is no dad) to contribute a ridiculous amount of money to my education--my EFC was $3-4K when my mom was only making $25-30K/yr, and my sister and I were both in college. So she was supposed to be paying roughly 1/4 of her pre-tax income towards our combined educations, and living off what? The EFC is subtracted from any aid your school offers you, so it's just assumed you're going to get that, when clearly I wasn't--and not because my mom is selfish or wanted to "teach me a lesson", but because there is no way in hell she could afford it. Financial aid is f****d, to assume that anyone can just borrow as much as they want to go to college is ludicrous, although I wish it were true.
                                                                             

                                                                            trauma_junky

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                                                                              Ya, but grad school loans are really easy to get, but no grants! Plus scholarships are next to none! The funny thing is it is much easier to get loans if as a female, you can just claim to be pregnant and you are now an emancipated minor. Or join the military, then you can get loans. The whole system is really screwy.
                                                                               

                                                                              j3nsen

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                                                                                Originally posted by Alexander99
                                                                                I have talked to some people that use the fact that they work full-time or close to full-time as an excuse for mediocre grades (not just premeds.) My question is, if these people have no children, why don't they just take out student loans to pay for college instead of working? Isn't that the point of federally subsidized student loans--so that a student can go to school full-time without having to work?

                                                                                For example, I have very little money but my cost of living is pretty much paid for by loans and grants. Now, I could go out and start working 40 hours a week and complain about how it's so hard to get good grades but I'd be the one that's choosing to put myself in that situation. I feel that if a person wants to work so much so that they don't have any debt, that's their perrogative but they shouldn't complain about it or use it as an excuse; afterall, it's their choice. What am I missing here?

                                                                                Alexander

                                                                                i think what you're missing here my friend is the view from these people's perspective. first off, if your family is always arguing cuz of money, the last thing you want to do is take out a loan more than what you see as the bare minimum needed to get by (reg. fees, books, some living expenses). personally, i wasn't as "smart" to take out more, cuz money was always an issue growing up... and borrowing more than you "need" is very unappealing. its money you're not used to spending at that age and point in your life. now w/ hind sight, i should have borrowed more to focus on studies. and what do they say.. hind sight is always 20/20. i really think you need to be in these people's shoes to feel/see it. secondly, you have no idea while you're in school what kinda job/career you'll be able to get. i for one didn't. so to be on the safer end, many people don't borrow more than what they need in order to get by. they'd much rather work and pay off things as they go, knowing that they aren't falling deeper into debt. the money/debt factor plays a huge part in decision making when you grow up poor... so much that it even defies reason as you're probably alluding to.
                                                                                 

                                                                                calcrew14

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                                                                                  Originally posted by Mistress S
                                                                                  . Financial aid is f****d, to assume that anyone can just borrow as much as they want to go to college is ludicrous, although I wish it were true.

                                                                                  How can anyone assume that any application will always be accepted? The advice is to try to get it as much as possible if you can. Without an advice from his Banker, my older brother would not have taken out this $30,000 plus loan at all.

                                                                                  Bad credit indicates unfavorable transaction in the past. Still, one may be able to get a commercial loan at a much higher rate. Loan sharking is something that has never been out of date. No one should subject oneself to that kind of business, though. Common sense will prevail. :clap:
                                                                                   

                                                                                  elin

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                                                                                    Originally posted by Alexander99
                                                                                    Were you raised in this country? If so, it's a shame you don't understand anything about the United States. The point of our country is that you have many freedoms, not the least of which is the freedom to express your opinion.

                                                                                    To answer your question of why I care, it's because I'm tired of people that complain when their circumstances are primarily due to their own actions (this is not the only example.) I realize I should have simplified it for people like you and state:

                                                                                    "I am tired of people that complain it's too hard to work and go to

                                                                                    Yeah, whatever. Did you even think before you started this thread? Common sense would have helped you to realize that few people work forty plus hours/week, and take 16+ hours a week on top of that to pay for the new beamer. Learn how to think critically before you make sweeping generalizations about a large group of people. And how does this have to do with being born in the US anyway? You stated your opinion, and I indirectly told you that your opinion was baseless.
                                                                                     

                                                                                    calcrew14

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                                                                                      Originally posted by Alexander99
                                                                                      Were you raised in this country? If so, it's a shame you don't understand anything about the United States. The point of our country is that you have many freedoms, not the least of which is the freedom to express your opinion.

                                                                                      To answer your question of why I care, it's because I'm tired of people that complain when their circumstances are primarily due to their own actions (this is not the only example.) I realize I should have simplified it for people like you and state:

                                                                                      "I am tired of people that complain it's too hard to work and go to school when it's obvious they are working to buy things they don't need or because they simply choose not to take out loans."

                                                                                      Did I ever say that everyone who works a lot while going to school is doing so by choice? No. I realize now though that the issue with getting student loans is more complex and I forgot all about the students with parents that have money but refuse to pay.

                                                                                      Don't get discourage. Not only me see the benefit of this thread, I bet.

                                                                                      I am also encouraging everybody to take out loans as much as possible for this final stretch in medical school or its equivalece only. Those younger azzes in the larger pool of pre-proanything need to prove themselves that they deserve it.

                                                                                      Yes, this thing is complicated. I myself don't have anything to back up my opinion. But this older brother of mine took home over $30,000 of the loaned $ this season.

                                                                                      Please keep in mind that a lot of those parents who always insist that they are not going to pay for their children may keep on slipping fat bundles of cash to them once in a very short while. They also buy a condo, furnish it with luxery stuffs, also thow in some BMUU (to emphasize that things are really more complicated than it actually is.:D ) for a better transportation.....etc

                                                                                      For thse unlucky sons or daughters, you might want to take the :smuggrin: parents to court. Or at least ask them to certify it in paper. See what the court or fafsa could do anything about it.
                                                                                       
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