Percent doing fellowships?

[caligas]

anybody know what percentage of anesthesia residency grads are doing a fellowship?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sevoflurane]

Over 100%

 

[caligas]

Geez, I knew it was high, but...

 

[2Fast2Des]

In my program 90%

 

[Mad Jack]

Under the whole residency planning thing on AMA's website, I believe it was, they listed the percent planning to pursue fellowships at over 80% if I recall correctly.

 

[criticalelement]

Under the whole residency planning thing on AMA's website, I believe it was, they listed the percent planning to pursue fellowships at over 80% if I recall correctly.

Geez if thats the case why dont they just make the residency five or six years and you wont have to worry about fellowships

 

[CCFresident2016]

Geez if thats the case why dont they just make the residency five or six years and you wont have to worry about fellowships

That's how anesthesia was like before. Intern year plus two anesthesia years. Then they changed it to intern + 3 years with your last year being an integrated fellowship.

 

[deleted126335]

That's how anesthesia was like before. Intern year plus two anesthesia years. Then they changed it to intern + 3 years with your last year being an integrated fellowship.

That was the mid-late 80's. The world has changed.

 

[pgg]

Over 100%

Yeah, the dedicated people are doing two.

I hear it's hard to get a job without at least CCM + cardiac. For a competitive market it's probably wise to throw in a regional year, or maybe one of the new periop medicine fellowships to really stand out.

And a MBA, as a backup plan.

 

[Planktonmd]

Yeah, the dedicated people are doing two.

I hear it's hard to get a job without at least CCM + cardiac. For a competitive market it's probably wise to throw in a regional year, or maybe one of the new periop medicine fellowships to really stand out.

And a MBA, as a backup plan.

I recommend the following combination: 1 year cardiac + 1 year intensive care + 1 year pediatric + 1 year pain + 1 year regional
This will greatly improve your chances at finding a job making around 50,000 more than an average CRNA.

 

[psychbender]

Sarcasm aside, last year, I compared actual match data from SF and NRMP to residency graduation numbers for the year, and it was around 50%. Plenty of big ivory tower programs will send closer to 80-90% to fellowship, but they will be balanced out by the rest, which will send most directly into the workforce.

 

[caligas]

The post about Emory indicated that almost the whole class is doing a fellowship.

 

[sevoflurane]

Yeah, the dedicated people are doing two.

I hear it's hard to get a job without at least CCM + cardiac. For a competitive market it's probably wise to throw in a regional year, or maybe one of the new periop medicine fellowships to really stand out.

And a MBA, as a backup plan.

Ummm.... the only other thing I'd throw in there would be the quality improvement fellowship. As there are not many anesthesiologists out there with this prestigious fellowship, you would STAND OUT amongst the rest of the anesthesia populous.

 

[sevoflurane]

http://depts.washington.edu/anesth/education/fellows/periop-safety.shtml

 

[deleted171991]

Sarcasm aside, last year, I compared actual match data from SF and NRMP to residency graduation numbers for the year, and it was around 50%. Plenty of big ivory tower programs will send closer to 80-90% to fellowship, but they will be balanced out by the rest, which will send most directly into the workforce.

I doubt that there are programs which don't send at least 50% to fellowship nowadays. It's like college diplomas: when everybody has one, a high school grad will look bad and get filtered out just for not having one. It's becoming more and more the norm, not the exception. Which makes anesthesiology an even worse deal as a specialty, compared to internal medicine, for example.

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

I doubt that there are programs which don't send at least 50% to fellowship nowadays. It's like college diplomas: when everybody has one, a high school grad will look bad and get filtered out just for not having one. It's becoming more and more the norm, not the exception. Which makes anesthesiology an even worse deal as a specialty, compared to internal medicine, for example.

Nah, I bet there are quite a few of the smaller non-ivory programs that only have one or two that go into fellowships. One, because those programs select for residents that don't care about fellowships either because they don't have the credentials to get into the "big" places or they want the 3 year and out well rounded no fellows taking cases type of program or two; after getting killed being the workforce for 3 years they just want out. These types of programs also likely have less (or no) CRNAs which translates to less of "the sky is falling" mentality.

Meanwhile at the place I did my residency only 1-2 out of ~20 don't go into fellowship. Which IMO is crazy.

 

[deleted171991]

Nah, I bet there are quite a few of the smaller non-ivory programs that only have one or two that go into fellowships. One, because those programs select for residents that don't care about fellowships either because they don't have the credentials to get into the "big" places or they want the 3 year and out well rounded no fellows taking cases type of program or two; after getting killed being the workforce for 3 years they just want out. These types of programs also likely have less (or no) CRNAs which translates to less of "the sky is falling" mentality.

Meanwhile at the place I did my residency only 1-2 out of ~20 don't go into fellowship. Which IMO is crazy.

I meant good programs.

 

[amLOLdipine]

I meant good programs.

Do you consider Indiana University a good program? Typically only about 1/4 of their class does fellowship.

 

[psychbender]

According to the NRMP and SF match systems, in 2016 there were 23 people (19 US grads) who matched to OB anesthesiology, 303 (214 US) into Pain, 179 (131 US) to Peds anesthesiology, 149 CCM, and 199 to CT anesthesiology. That would be 712 US grads matching to fellowship (with probably only a small handful being physicians already out in practice). I do not have data for Regional/Acute Pain, nor any of the non-accredited fellowships like solid organ, trauma, OR management, etc. I don't have exact numbers for how many residents graduated from anesthesiology (someone else cab dig up that number), but there were 1513 that matched into PGY-1 or PGY-2 Anesthesiology positions in 2016. I know residency positions increased slightly over the last three years, but even if we assumed that 1513 will graduate this year, that's nearly half that will go to fellowship.

 

[Planktonmd]

Ummm.... the only other thing I'd throw in there would be the quality improvement fellowship. As there are not many anesthesiologists out there with this prestigious fellowship, you would STAND OUT amongst the rest of the anesthesia populous.

I heard you can have your own personalized clipboard with this fellowship!

 

[caligas]

According to the NRMP and SF match systems, in 2016 there were 23 people (19 US grads) who matched to OB anesthesiology, 303 (214 US) into Pain, 179 (131 US) to Peds anesthesiology, 149 CCM, and 199 to CT anesthesiology. That would be 712 US grads matching to fellowship (with probably only a small handful being physicians already out in practice). I do not have data for Regional/Acute Pain, nor any of the non-accredited fellowships like solid organ, trauma, OR management, etc. I don't have exact numbers for how many residents graduated from anesthesiology (someone else cab dig up that number), but there were 1513 that matched into PGY-1 or PGY-2 Anesthesiology positions in 2016. I know residency positions increased slightly over the last three years, but even if we assumed that 1513 will graduate this year, that's nearly half that will go to fellowship.

Now THAT's a good answer to the question. (Although others were funnier.)

 

[deleted171991]

According to the NRMP and SF match systems, in 2016 there were 23 people (19 US grads) who matched to OB anesthesiology, 303 (214 US) into Pain, 179 (131 US) to Peds anesthesiology, 149 CCM, and 199 to CT anesthesiology. That would be 712 US grads matching to fellowship (with probably only a small handful being physicians already out in practice). I do not have data for Regional/Acute Pain, nor any of the non-accredited fellowships like solid organ, trauma, OR management, etc. I don't have exact numbers for how many residents graduated from anesthesiology (someone else cab dig up that number), but there were 1513 that matched into PGY-1 or PGY-2 Anesthesiology positions in 2016. I know residency positions increased slightly over the last three years, but even if we assumed that 1513 will graduate this year, that's nearly half that will go to fellowship.

712 + regional + other non-accredited will be more than half. There are 70 regional programs with slightly more than 150 positions, so I would guess about 900 fellows in total.

I am surprised how many suckers they could find for CCM. There are much fewer than 150 combined CCM-anesthesia jobs available yearly.

 

[BLADEMDA]

712 + regional + other non-accredited will be more than half. There are 70 regional programs with slightly more than 150 positions, so I would guess about 900 fellows in total.

I am surprised how many suckers they could find for CCM. There are much less than 150 combined CCM-anesthesia jobs available yearly.

My best guess is 60% of Residents do a Fellowship.

 

[turnupthegas]

I understand fellowship can open up more or select job opportunities. With that said, in contract negotiations, how much more can a fellowship increase your base?

Seems minimal at big cooperate practices.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[nimbus]

I understand fellowship can open up more or select job opportunities. With that said, in contract negotiations, how much more can a fellowship increase your base?

Seems minimal at big cooperate practices.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

In the end you have to earn your keep. So if the fellowship enables you to generate more revenues by productivity, stipends, yada, then you will have more leverage for increased pay. In most cases that is not the case compared to other candidates.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I understand fellowship can open up more or select job opportunities. With that said, in contract negotiations, how much more can a fellowship increase your base?

Seems minimal at big cooperate practices.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

But, in the near future maybe the guy/girl with the fellowship gets the JOB over the person without the fellowship. I've seen the job market deteriorate steadily over the past 5 years. If I was in Residency today there is NO WAY I would not do a fellowship in case my first job didn't pan out. As usual, the majority of residents did the right thing IMHO in choosing to do a fellowship. I wish the other 40% the best of luck 5 years down the road when jobs are even more scarce in the most desirable areas.

 

[GravelRider]

712 + regional + other non-accredited will be more than half. There are 70 regional programs with slightly more than 150 positions, so I would guess about 900 fellows in total.

I am surprised how many suckers they could find for CCM. There are much fewer than 150 combined CCM-anesthesia jobs available yearly.

It could be that some of them want to get out of the OR altogether and are looking at straight CCM jobs. The straight CCM job market seems to be growing.

 

[deleted171991]

The straight CCM job market seems to be growing.

Not for anesthesiologists. By far, most CCM jobs are for internists, the same way many hospitals prefer a trauma surgeon if they need a separate MD in the SICU.

 

[jthedestroyr]

My friend that just finished pulm-ccu literally has inbox full of job offers. Pulm-CCm market seems insane.

 

[GravelRider]

My friend that just finished pulm-ccu literally has inbox full of job offers. Pulm-CCm market seems insane.

My pulm/cc friends have gotten some really decent jobs. There seems to be a growing demand for critical care yet anesthesiologists seem left out.

 

[AdmiralChz]

My friend that just finished pulm-ccu literally has inbox full of job offers. Pulm-CCm market seems insane.

To be fair, I get 2-3 messages a day from head hunters all over the country as a CA-3

 

[turnupthegas]

To be fair, I get 2-3 messages a day from head hunters all over the country as a CA-3

Same here.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[nimbus]

But, in the near future maybe the guy/girl with the fellowship gets the JOB over the person without the fellowship. I've seen the job market deteriorate steadily over the past 5 years. If I was in Residency today there is NO WAY I would not do a fellowship in case my first job didn't pan out. As usual, the majority of residents did the right thing IMHO in choosing to do a fellowship. I wish the other 40% the best of luck 5 years down the road when jobs are even more scarce in the most desirable areas.

But if you can get a good job now you should take it. After 5 years in practice, nobody will care whether you did a fellowship or not unless it's cardiac, peds, or pain work.

When Blademda goes job hunting, is anybody asking you about a fellowship?

 

[deleted162650]

But if you can get a good job now you should take it. After 5 years in practice, nobody will care whether you did a fellowship or not unless it's cardiac, peds, or pain work.

When Blademda goes job hunting, is anybody asking you about a fellowship?

They would if he wanted to get a job practicing peds or cardiac in a desirable area.

 

[Planktonmd]

To be fair, I get 2-3 messages a day from head hunters all over the country as a CA-3

That unfortunately means nothing! They are sending the same emails to everyone.

 

[Planktonmd]

They would if he wanted to get a job practicing peds or cardiac in a desirable area.

Correct!

 

[AdmiralChz]

That unfortunately means nothing! They are sending the same emails to everyone.

No doubt! But isn't the same almost certainly true for Pulm-CC grads? Saying there are a ton of open positions all over the country doesn't mean it's a better job market since the same appears to be true for our specialty.

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

They would if he wanted to get a job practicing peds or cardiac in a desirable area.

Getting a job to do peds/cards right out of residency basically requires a fellowship. Getting the same job as a doc 5yrs or more out requires proof you've been doing those cases the last few years in your practice fellowship or not.

If I take my CT fellowship and TEE cert to go do general cases a.) I wasted a year and b.) I'm hurting myself if I want to move jobs and do hearts 2-5yrs from then.

Which is why you do the fellowship you WANT to be typecast in. Not because you think it makes you more marketable (even though that's also mostly true).

 

[Machinery]

I am happy with my job but there are days when I am reminded I should not have abandoned my fellowship application mid-cycle. Residents, if you decide not to do a fellowship, make sure you have a solid reason.

Btw, my group makes no secret we prefer fellowship trained applicants at this point.This is becoming the trend in competitive markets. We now have accelerated partnership tracks for fellowship trained new hires. Hospitals and insurance companies are beginning to throw the word fellowship around during negotiations.

 

[deleted171991]

Getting a job to do peds/cards right out of residency basically requires a fellowship. Getting the same job as a doc 5yrs or more out requires proof you've been doing those cases the last few years in your practice fellowship or not.

If I take my CT fellowship and TEE cert to go do general cases a.) I wasted a year and b.) I'm hurting myself if I want to move jobs and do hearts 2-5yrs from then.

Which is why you do the fellowship you WANT to be typecast in. Not because you think it makes you more marketable (even though that's also mostly true).

I am sorry I cannot give 10 likes to the part that I emphasized.

Many people think a fellowship can just open doors. It also closes many, especially among PP employers. That's why people should also think hard and long about doing "restrictive" fellowships, such as cardiac/pain/CCM, which may decrease the number of jobs open to one, especially in a certain area. Most employers want a person who'll be around for 5-10 years or more, so everything has to fit: line of work, family ties, salary etc. They want to be convinced that the sucker will stick to their flypaper. And they can afford waiting (which you can't), because the market is on their side: there is a sucker going into anesthesiology every minute.

 

[misteratoz]

So in conclusion:

Fellowships are great for opening doors but they also close doors and take away potential PP money but they are also absolutely necessary except when they're not.

#perioperativehome
#Anesthesialeaderssoldout

Got it.

I should just quit medschool and open a business.

 

[GravelRider]

So in conclusion:

Fellowships are great for opening doors but they also close doors and take away potential PP money but they are also absolutely necessary except when they're not.

#perioperativehome
#Anesthesialeaderssoldout

Got it.

I should just quit medschool and open a business.

Actually, yes. If you have a good idea or plan for a business, that would be your best decision. Our economy and tax code is structured to favor business owners and real estate owners. Owning a business is not easy, but it sure beats making money for someone else.

 

[deleted162650]

So in conclusion:

Fellowships are great for opening doors but they also close doors and take away potential PP money but they are also absolutely necessary except when they're not.

#perioperativehome
#Anesthesialeaderssoldout

Got it.

I should just quit medschool and open a business.

Will the mods please make this a sticky. SDN Anes forum in a nutshell right there.

 

[Machinery]

So in conclusion:

Fellowships are great for opening doors but they also close doors and take away potential PP money but they are also absolutely necessary except when they're not.

#perioperativehome
#Anesthesialeaderssoldout

Got it.

I should just quit medschool and open a business.

Fellowships don't close half as many doors as they open. I wish that was the case, but a peds/CV fellowship trained doctor can do everything I do and more.

 

[misteratoz]

A quick question on that note: Does doing a peds fellowship train you do peds cardiac stuff? Or would you have to do 2 separate fellowships? Also, as a general rule, which fellowships are most marketable? I know it's years off for me but Cards seems right up my league.

 

[AdmiralChz]

A quick question on that note: Does doing a peds fellowship train you do peds cardiac stuff? Or would you have to do 2 separate fellowships? Also, as a general rule, which fellowships are most marketable? I know it's years off for me but Cards seems right up my league.

Peds Cards is a non-formalized separate training program, usually 6-12 months after your initial fellowship. We have faculty that have done it through hearts first as well as peds first, it doesn't seem to matter which way you get there - more depends on what you'd like to be doing when you aren't in the peds hearts room (General pediatrics vs adult hearts). These super-specialized anesthesiologists are absolutely mega-ballers though, to be frank. I would think your only job options would be at an academic center, but you could probably get a job literally anywhere easily.

Plenty of jobs right now for all of the usual fellowships, except perhaps OB which lends Itsef more to an academic career anyways.

 

[criticalelement]

To be fair, I get 2-3 messages a day from head hunters all over the country as a CA-3

Have you ever called them? All of them are calling about the same job(S) that theyve been trying to fill for ages.. same recruiters calling advertising the same crap jobs ...

 

[criticalelement]

Peds Cards is a non-formalized separate training program, usually 6-12 months after your initial fellowship. We have faculty that have done it through hearts first as well as peds first, it doesn't seem to matter which way you get there - more depends on what you'd like to be doing when you aren't in the peds hearts room (General pediatrics vs adult hearts). These super-specialized anesthesiologists are absolutely mega-ballers though, to be frank. I would think your only job options would be at an academic center, but you could probably get a job literally anywhere easily.

Peds Cards is a non-formalized separate training program, usually 6-12 months after your initial fellowship. We have faculty that have done it through hearts first as well as peds first, it doesn't seem to matter which way you get there - more depends on what you'd like to be doing when you aren't in the peds hearts room (General pediatrics vs adult hearts). These super-specialized anesthesiologists are absolutely mega-ballers though, to be frank. I would think your only job options would be at an academic center, but you could probably get a job literally anywhere easily.

Plenty of jobs right now for all of the usual fellowships, except perhaps OB which lends Itsef more to an academic career anyways.

Plenty of jobs right now for all of the usual fellowships, except perhaps OB which lends Itsef more to an academic career anyways.

think about what youre saying. Mega ballers you say....

How many places do peds hearts?

And out of all those places how many are socialistic?

All of them...

Can you make money in a socialistic arena where meritocracy does not exist?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[pgg]

If peds cardiac anesthesiologists got paid what they deserve to do those cases, they could retire to private islands a year after finishing fellowship.

 

[facted]

Did a regional fellowship and it CERTAINLY helped me find a job in the NYC area. I've since moved on to another private practice where again, they were only looking for regional fellowship training.

I would agree with some of the others here that certain fellowships are going to limit you for private practice. Particularly, peds and CC. Not to say you won't find some nice PP somewhere that needs those, but usually those are more sought after at big academic hospitals with "real peds" or large ICU's run by anesthesia. Small community hospitals aren't going to need you as much.

I also really think that fellowship depends a lot on where you want to end up working. If you're aiming for a competitive area, I think it's a must to do a fellowship these days. It's not going to increase your base salary all that much, but it will certainly help you land a job you wouldn't have gotten without it. My current PP in NY area is hiring a few people and we only hire fellowship trained nowadays. There is just too much competition and it costs almost the same to hire one or the other.