Perennial references

[Burnted_out]

How do references work long term in Medicine? I feel that every time a new position is offered, a fellowship is done, etc references are requested. It tends to be the same people that references are asked of. Where do people get references after working in a real job? Obviously you can't ask references from the employer you might be currently working for so who vouchs for you? It's hard to keep going back to the same people. For example in my case, I graduated, working now and doing fellowship in the upcoming year. I had to ask residency people for references/letter but have not heard back. It's not like I can ask my current employer despite the fact that the employer feels I'm doing a "fabulous" job - their words. This gets annoying. My spouse for example was telling me that in his line of work after a number of years in the work place, references are not requested.

And why is there a constant need to have references? Shouldn't completing med school, residency, potentially fellowship, a reasonable work history, etc all be enough?

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[Smurfette]

Why is it obvious you can't ask at your current job? I asked co-workers for references. If you ask before you give notice, ask them to keep it on the DL ("I haven't told anyone yet, please don't tell anyone"). We're all professionals and understand the need for discretion. Once you've been in practice (well, maybe not if you've been in practice only a few months, but after a year or two), residency references are pretty obsolete and people want to know your abilities when not supervised.

 

[Raryn]

How do references work long term in Medicine? I feel that every time a new position is offered, a fellowship is done, etc references are requested. It tends to be the same people that references are asked of. Where do people get references after working in a real job? Obviously you can't ask references from the employer you might be currently working for so who vouchs for you? It's hard to keep going back to the same people. For example in my case, I graduated, working now and doing fellowship in the upcoming year. I had to ask residency people for references/letter but have not heard back. It's not like I can ask my current employer despite the fact that the employer feels I'm doing a "fabulous" job - their words. This gets annoying. My spouse for example was telling me that in his line of work after a number of years in the work place, references are not requested.

And why is there a constant need to have references? Shouldn't completing med school, residency, potentially fellowship, a reasonable work history, etc all be enough?

Most of the time, for purposes of privileging, peer references work fine. I've written them for cofellows and coresidents. They're basically the new employer/hospital covering their assess and making sure that they have a file of "due diligence" in case it turns out you don't know an ass from an elbow.

The current PD of your old programs will always be asked to certify the successful completion of training, but most of the time it will consist of them pulling out your file, looking at the top sheet (that says you successfully completed) and writing whatever phrase is on that on a form.

 

[Burnted_out]

Why is it obvious you can't ask at your current job? I asked co-workers for references. If you ask before you give notice, ask them to keep it on the DL ("I haven't told anyone yet, please don't tell anyone"). We're all professionals and understand the need for discretion. Once you've been in practice (well, maybe not if you've been in practice only a few months, but after a year or two), residency references are pretty obsolete and people want to know your abilities when not supervised.

I work mostly independently so while my group is mid sized I have not even met many of the other attendings in the group. So I don’t really have any other attending a who could actually say much of anything about me.

 

[rokshana]

Are you just looking for info or are you planning On changing jobs between now and starting fellowship?

I always ask someone where I’m currently working, after a couple of mo the, if they would be willing to be a reference for me for their hospital/program. This wAy I always have someone...these are more like check lists of questions rather than actual letters so they don’t take that long to do.

Everytime you recredential for hospital privileges you will have to produce references...frankly it will never end in Medicine if you have priveldges at a hospital.

 

[Burnted_out]

Are you just looking for info or are you planning On changing jobs between now and starting fellowship?

I always ask someone where I’m currently working, after a couple of mo the, if they would be willing to be a reference for me for their hospital/program. This wAy I always have someone...these are more like check lists of questions rather than actual letters so they don’t take that long to do.

Everytime you recredential for hospital privileges you will have to produce references...frankly it will never end in Medicine if you have priveldges at a hospital.

Well for the fellowship they asked for letters - I contacted several faculty who already wrote letters for me but have not heard from them which is frustrating. I wish they could just call them vs ask for actual letters.

 

[Sardonix]

And why is there a constant need to have references? Shouldn't completing med school, residency, potentially fellowship, a reasonable work history, etc all be enough?

None of those things prevent one from being a total pain in the butt to work with or a lousy worker etc.

People slip through institutional checkpoints all the time. Big name physicians may have a solid work history, but that doesn't mean anyone actually liked being in the room with them. Ex: see the MD/PhD neurosurgeon Chris Duntsche down in Texas, now in prison.

Heck, even simpler jobs like fast food will call references just to check for red flags.

 

[BoardingDoc]

None of those things prevent one from being a total pain in the butt to work with or a lousy worker etc.

People slip through institutional checkpoints all the time. Big name physicians may have a solid work history, but that doesn't mean anyone actually liked being in the room with them. Ex: see the MD/PhD neurosurgeon Chris Duntsche down in Texas, now in prison.

Heck, even simpler jobs like fast food will call references just to check for red flags.

Agree with your sentiment. As an aside though: Chris Duntsche didn't exactly have a great work history. He literally only had an abysmal work history. What I really don't understand with him is how he graduated from residency when he reportedly had been involved in less than 100 cases as a resident.

 

[Sardonix]

Agree with your sentiment. As an aside though: Chris Duntsche didn't exactly have a great work history. He literally only had an abysmal work history. What I really don't understand with him is how he graduated from residency when he reportedly had been involved in less than 100 cases as a resident.

Hopefully the multiple lawsuits against the institutions that rubber stamped his career will shed some light on this. Some day.

 

[Raryn]

None of those things prevent one from being a total pain in the butt to work with or a lousy worker etc.

People slip through institutional checkpoints all the time. Big name physicians may have a solid work history, but that doesn't mean anyone actually liked being in the room with them. Ex: see the MD/PhD neurosurgeon Chris Duntsche down in Texas, now in prison.

Heck, even simpler jobs like fast food will call references just to check for red flags.

Actually, most companies these days won't do anything with a reference except confirm dates if employment. Too much liability otherwise if they bad mouth a former employee.

Similarly, it's useless in medicine. I choose my own references. If I can't find 3 people in medicine who won't sign a paper that I'm perfectly fine as a doctor, I have bigger problems.

 

[premedUVA]

Actually, most companies these days won't do anything with a reference except confirm dates if employment. Too much liability otherwise if they bad mouth a former employee.

Similarly, it's useless in medicine. I choose my own references. If I can't find 3 people in medicine who won't sign a paper that I'm perfectly fine as a doctor, I have bigger problems.

What if you're applying to, say, 8 different jobs, each asking for 3 references? Do you use the same 3 mentors, or use those you worked less with for the jobs you're less excited about? #seriousquestion

 

[Burnted_out]

Actually, most companies these days won't do anything with a reference except confirm dates if employment. Too much liability otherwise if they bad mouth a former employee.

Similarly, it's useless in medicine. I choose my own references. If I can't find 3 people in medicine who won't sign a paper that I'm perfectly fine as a doctor, I have bigger problems.

I still don’t see how

What if you're applying to, say, 8 different jobs, each asking for 3 references? Do you use the same 3 mentors, or use those you worked less with for the jobs you're less excited about? #seriousquestion

Yes exactly this. For example where I did residency there were prob about 10 or so main attendings. There were some attendings I never rotated with, and some I only interacted with less frequently. One of those attendings got canned because he was a sociopath and I worked with this person like 5 months. So while there is nothing wrong with me, there are limits to the number of attendings some of us have interacted with so it’s not that easy.

 

[Raryn]

What if you're applying to, say, 8 different jobs, each asking for 3 references? Do you use the same 3 mentors, or use those you worked less with for the jobs you're less excited about? #seriousquestion

Jobs (not fellowships, jobs) almost never ask for reference letters. They ask for a list of references - people they might call if they want to ask about you. You can put the same 3 people down for all of them - they'll almost never be called. Academic jobs is a bit different, but I can't speak to that process firsthand.

Then, once you have a firm offer, they'll ask you to select a few references, either peers or supervisors, that can fill out a simple form for credentialing. This just asks stuff like would you recommend Dr X, do you have any concerns about their clinical skills, whatever. Takes ten minutes to fill out.

Since you're selecting the people who fill this form out, it is a useless exercise. For peer references, everyone just picks their friends. And the PD who just graduated you is not going to torpedo your job application without you knowing about problems way, way in advance.

 

[Ladholyman]

When I applied to Kaiser Northern California during PGY-3 they asked for three references, one from the program director. They reached out to all of my references after my interview, and from what I gather they asked for clarification for things I talked about during my interview. I just signed my contract so my word of advice is choose people who can vouch for you.