PGY4 and BCPS

[nafcillin]

why is a pharmD not enough anymore? It’s getting ridiculous. I wonder if pharmacy will turn into an environment where you need 4 years of residency and BCPS and a BCOP while you are at it.

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[spacecowgirl]

Is PGY3 the Future of Clinical Pharmacy Training?

 

[BigBoss]

Because the supply vastly exceeds the demand.

 

[mentos]

Why stop at 4? Why not 5? Why not 6?

 

[projektreverb]

Because they can. The market is not in our favor right now.

 

[Modest_anteater]

why is a pharmD not enough anymore? It’s getting ridiculous. I wonder if pharmacy will turn into an environment where you need 4 years of residency and BCPS and a BCOP while you are at it.

they need to have two degrees. One is a retail/community degree that is 3 years and is just a license type degree. The other would be a 7 year clinical pharmacy degree

 

[PharmtoCS]

Because we have no choice but to sign ourselves up for a few years of cheap labor plus BPS fees. If we don't then our competition will and they will be the ones eating our lunches.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Because we have no choice but to sign ourselves up for a few years of cheap labor plus BPS fees. If we don't then our competition will and they will be the ones eating our lunches.

Residency is the manifestation of the “I will work much harder for much less pay” mentality which has permeated this profession. The increased focus schools and students are putting on getting residencies and doing multiple years of residencies are but a band-aid to the real problem of saturation.

 

[BenJammin]

Makes no sense for someone to go to pharmacy school, spend 3 years in residency, and then have to get permission to help physicians and midlevels.

 

[Mr. Corporate Pharmacist]

why is a pharmD not enough anymore? It’s getting ridiculous. I wonder if pharmacy will turn into an environment where you need 4 years of residency and BCPS and a BCOP while you are at it.

Pharmacy most definitely will require more and more qualifications to practice. Even retail pharmacy requires more business acumen than ever to be successful.

Market saturation makes it hard to elevate the profession because the PharmD does not showcase the scope of true talent and skills. I feel the standards for pharmacy schools could be higher.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

If you're doing a PGY-3, you should be able to function as an NP/PA in your specialty area

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The problem is that a PGY-3 is “recognized” by none other than... other pharmacists only. Unless the Nursing or Physician lobbyist groups recognize what a pharmacy PGY-3 is, pharmacists will be perpetually stuck in an endless cycle of self-validation.

 

[Rouelle]

If you're doing a PGY-3, you should be able to function as an NP/PA in your specialty area

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If you want to function as a NP/PA you should be a NP/PA, not a pharmacist.

 

[Deja]

If you want to function as a NP/PA you should be a NP/PA, not a pharmacist.

Funny thing is PA is only 2 years of schooling and doesn't require residency lol I still wonder how they can learn enough to diagnose in 2 years

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Funny thing is PA is only 2 years of schooling and doesn't require residency lol I still wonder how they can learn enough to diagnose in 2 years

It’s because they don’t waste their time taking classes like “The Fine Art of Pill Counting,” “Pre-Residency 101: How To Sucker Yourself Into 2-3 Years of Additional Training,” “Innovations in Healthcare Policy: Provider Status Edition” and “Things They Don’t Teach You at Other Graduate Programs: How To Conduct a Google Search”.



On a more serious note though, you can toss out most of the curriculum for the first two years of pharmacy school and do just fine in my opinion. Most of those intro classes are taught by long-tenured researchers who have no idea what pharmacy is but need a teaching appointment to be considered “faculty”.

 

[Sine Cura]

Funny thing is PA is only 2 years of schooling and doesn't require residency lol I still wonder how they can learn enough to diagnose in 2 years

They learn enough to write 360 oxycodone a month

 

[Lnsean]

Funny thing is PA is only 2 years of schooling and doesn't require residency lol I still wonder how they can learn enough to diagnose in 2 years

That's 2 years on top of a bachelors. I'd say it's the same length as a PharmD...but they're geared towards diagnosis. I would even say that half the pharmacy curriculum is redundant. It should be done with 3 years of classroom work total with 2 years of residencies for people wanting to specialize or do inpatient.

 

[BidingMyTime]

The problem is that a PGY-3 is “recognized” by none other than... other pharmacists only. Unless the Nursing or Physician lobbyist groups recognize what a pharmacy PGY-3 is, pharmacists will be perpetually stuck in an endless cycle of self-validation.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Do you really think medical boards decided to recognize the hard work of NP's? Absolutely not. What happened was nursing boards decided upon themselves to give prescribing rights to NP's, doctors had absolutely nothing to do with it. Nobody is going to respect or give pharmacists anything, if pharmacists want prescribing rights (and lets be honest, the vast majority don't), but if they did, then it is the pharmacy boards that will have to give pharmacists prescribing rights, not nursing or medical boards. The problem is, pharmacists aren't alpha enough to take what they want, hence they are continually asking permission, and will continue to be told no.

 

[Rouelle]

Funny thing is PA is only 2 years of schooling and doesn't require residency lol I still wonder how they can learn enough to diagnose in 2 years

Disclaimer: My S.O. Is a PA so my viewpoint has inherent bias.

That said, PA school is 2.5 years (not 2) with no breaks. No spring break, no summer break... I even remember my SO going to lectures the week between Christmas Day and New Years Day. This is after a Bachelor’s degree (required) and direct patient care experience (eg paramedic, MA, CNA, etc, with a minimum of 6 months full time experience required for most programs). There were no “fluff” classes whatsoever.

Compare this to a PharmD program that still doesn’t require a Bachelor’s degree. One can graduate in as few as 6 years (2 undergrad, 4 for traditional PharmD). During the professional portion, students get summers off and weeks worth of winter break. There are plenty of fluff classes that simply satisfy some accreditation requirement. No prior pharmacy experience is expressly required at most pharmacy schools.

My school had medical, dental, pharmacy, PA, and nursing schools all on one campus. It was common knowledge that PA was the toughest to get into, followed by medical/dental, followed by pharmacy.

There are good and bad PA schools just like there are pharmacy schools. There are good and bad PAs just like there are pharmacists. But the training is in two vastly different fields with only partial overlap.

 

[Sine Cura]

Maybe if the medical program is osteopathic. This is like saying veterinary school is harder to get into compared to allopathic schools.

 

[Deja]

Disclaimer: My S.O. Is a PA so my viewpoint has inherent bias.

That said, PA school is 2.5 years (not 2) with no breaks. No spring break, no summer break... I even remember my SO going to lectures the week between Christmas Day and New Years Day. This is after a Bachelor’s degree (required) and direct patient care experience (eg paramedic, MA, CNA, etc, with a minimum of 6 months full time experience required for most programs). There were no “fluff” classes whatsoever.

Compare this to a PharmD program that still doesn’t require a Bachelor’s degree. One can graduate in as few as 6 years (2 undergrad, 4 for traditional PharmD). During the professional portion, students get summers off and weeks worth of winter break. There are plenty of fluff classes that simply satisfy some accreditation requirement. No prior pharmacy experience is expressly required at most pharmacy schools.

My school had medical, dental, pharmacy, PA, and nursing schools all on one campus. It was common knowledge that PA was the toughest to get into, followed by medical/dental, followed by pharmacy.

There are good and bad PA schools just like there are pharmacy schools. There are good and bad PAs just like there are pharmacists. But the training is in two vastly different fields with only partial overlap.

PA harder to get in to than Med/dental? I doubt it

a lot of pharmacy schools require bachelors now too right?

A family physician goes through 4 years of med school and 3 years of residency compared to PA's 1 year of classes and 1 year of rotations... I don't know... I still don't think PAs get enough training

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

Why stop at 4? Why not 5? Why not 6?

LeBron predicted this all back in 2010

 

[KidPharmD]

Why are we still discussing this idea? I haven't heard of anyone since that doofus that wrote the Pharmacy Times article even really pushing this idea. ASHP doesn't recognize them and fellowships are a completely different thing that no one claims is necessary for practice. Even as it is today, most PGY1s are clearly ready for most clinical jobs. PGY2s are easily filling openings in specialties and teaching focused positions. The positions that are not being filled by residency grads are usually filled by those with extensive practice experience. Our residents are definitely more work for us than not having them at all.

 

[owlegrad]

Our residents are definitely more work for us than not having them at all.

Respectfully, I think this is something people like to think but in reality is probably understating the value of the resident. Of course I have no idea of your specific program, just a general observation.

 

[Samoa]

Maybe if the medical program is osteopathic. This is like saying veterinary school is harder to get into compared to allopathic schools.

Well, at the time I went to pharmacy school it was pretty difficult to get in, and in my state the order went: vet-->allopathic-->dental -->pharmacy-->osteopathic. All of those have become easier admissions in the last 20 years, except the vet school.

 

[Modest_anteater]

It’s because they don’t waste their time taking classes like “The Fine Art of Pill Counting,” “Pre-Residency 101: How To Sucker Yourself Into 2-3 Years of Additional Training,” “Innovations in Healthcare Policy: Provider Status Edition” and “Things They Don’t Teach You at Other Graduate Programs: How To Conduct a Google Search”.



On a more serious note though, you can toss out most of the curriculum for the first two years of pharmacy school and do just fine in my opinion. Most of those intro classes are taught by long-tenured researchers who have no idea what pharmacy is but need a teaching appointment to be considered “faculty”.

"It’s because they don’t waste their time taking classes like “The Fine Art of Pill Counting,” “Pre-Residency 101: How To Sucker Yourself Into 2-3 Years of Additional Training,” “Innovations in Healthcare Policy: Provider Status Edition” and “Things They Don’t Teach You at Other Graduate Programs: How To Conduct a Google Search”."

Welcome to the SDN! I really enjoy your posts.

 

[Seriously Serious]

It's not just saturation, it's a progressive healthcare movement altogether. Look at nursing, they have developed the DNP and now nursing residency programs are popping up everywhere. Physicians/Nursing also have a professional certification charade. I feel bad for the traditional MD, the collection of all this madness devalues the degree (imo).

 

[Modest_anteater]

Disclaimer: My S.O. Is a PA so my viewpoint has inherent bias.

That said, PA school is 2.5 years (not 2) with no breaks. No spring break, no summer break... I even remember my SO going to lectures the week between Christmas Day and New Years Day. This is after a Bachelor’s degree (required) and direct patient care experience (eg paramedic, MA, CNA, etc, with a minimum of 6 months full time experience required for most programs). There were no “fluff” classes whatsoever.

Compare this to a PharmD program that still doesn’t require a Bachelor’s degree. One can graduate in as few as 6 years (2 undergrad, 4 for traditional PharmD). During the professional portion, students get summers off and weeks worth of winter break. There are plenty of fluff classes that simply satisfy some accreditation requirement. No prior pharmacy experience is expressly required at most pharmacy schools.

My school had medical, dental, pharmacy, PA, and nursing schools all on one campus. It was common knowledge that PA was the toughest to get into, followed by medical/dental, followed by pharmacy.

There are good and bad PA schools just like there are pharmacy schools. There are good and bad PAs just like there are pharmacists. But the training is in two vastly different fields with only partial overlap.

I agree with most of what you say except: "One can graduate in as few as 6 years (2 undergrad, 4 for traditional PharmD)." Someone can go to community college for 1 year and then do a 3 year pharmD program. So you can graduate in 4 years total for a PharmD

 

[TranslationalRPh]

It's not just saturation, it's a progressive healthcare movement altogether. Look at nursing, they have developed the DNP and now nursing residency programs are popping up everywhere. Physicians/Nursing also have a professional certification charade. I feel bad for the traditional MD, the collection of all this madness devalues the degree (imo).

It feels like the MD, without board certification, is already devalued among US pratitioners given that 90% are board certified.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I agree with most of what you say except: "One can graduate in as few as 6 years (2 undergrad, 4 for traditional PharmD)." Someone can go to community college for 1 year and then do a 3 year pharmD program. So you can graduate in 4 years total for a PharmD

where can you do this?

 

[mentos]

I agree with most of what you say except: "One can graduate in as few as 6 years (2 undergrad, 4 for traditional PharmD)." Someone can go to community college for 1 year and then do a 3 year pharmD program. So you can graduate in 4 years total for a PharmD

What 3 year program accepts students with 1 year of community college?

 

[Modest_anteater]

What 3 year program accepts students with 1 year of community college?

It's not about 1 year it's about having all the prereqs completed which can be done in Sumner, Fall, Spring, Summer. How do I know it can be done? because I did it....

 

[mentos]

It's not about 1 year it's about having all the prereqs

So which 3 year program accepts all prereqs from community college?

 

[Lnsean]

It's not about 1 year it's about having all the prereqs completed which can be done in Sumner, Fall, Spring, Summer. How do I know it can be done? because I did it....

Give us an example. These are easy to fact check. If you're gonna say something then back it up. Which program? I'll even call them for you to confirm if it's true.

 

[KidPharmD]

It's not about 1 year it's about having all the prereqs completed which can be done in Sumner, Fall, Spring, Summer. How do I know it can be done? because I did it....

Yes, this could be done because it is 4 semesters. My alma mater requires a little more than 60hrs of coursework (and is 4 years). If you took 16hrs each semester then you could get it done in a little more than a year (you list more than a calendar year of semesters). However, you would probably end up paying the same for undergrad as someone who did it in the traditional amount of time (depending on fee structure). In fact, at some places summer courses are more per credit hour so you might pay more.

 

[mentos]

Yes, this could be done because it is 4 semesters. My alma mater requires a little more than 60hrs of coursework (and is 4 years). If you took 16hrs each semester then you could get it done in a little more than a year (you list more than a calendar year of semesters). However, you would probably end up paying the same for undergrad as someone who did it in the traditional amount of time (depending on fee structure). In fact, at some places summer courses are more per credit hour so you might pay more.

Is your alma matter a 3 year program that accepts all prereqs from community college? That is what we are questioning. So far we've only heard crickets. I don't even know of any community college that offers orgo for example.

 

[projektreverb]

Is your alma matter a 3 year program that accepts all prereqs from community college? That is what we are questioning. So far we've only heard crickets. I don't even know of any community college that offers orgo for example.

Here’s Henry Ford Community College that offers Orgo

CHEM-241: Organic Chemistry I | HFC Catalog

 

[mentos]

Here’s Henry Ford Community College that offers Orgo

CHEM-241: Organic Chemistry I | HFC Catalog

Alright but which 3 year pharmacy school accepts all prereqs from there? I guess there's no point in asking a third time.

 

[projektreverb]

Alright but which 3 year pharmacy school accepts all prereqs from there? I guess there's no point in asking a third time.

I don’t know the answer to that question. Doubt we’ll get it from modest tho.

 

[owlegrad]

Not all community colleges offer ORGO? I thought that was normal. I also thought it was normal for pharmacy schools to accept all classes from community college. That’s the path I took and I certainly wasn’t the only one in my class.

I do think this idea of getting everything done in four years is fantasy. I would love to see an actual example of one person who had done it.

 

[projektreverb]

Not all community colleges offer ORGO? I thought that was normal. I also thought it was normal for pharmacy schools to accept all classes from community college. That’s the path I took and I certainly wasn’t the only one in my class.

I do think this idea of getting everything done in four years is fantasy. I would love to see an actual example of one person who had done it.

Exactly. I don’t see why they wouldn’t accept a cc orgo class. But again I have no evidence to support my claim. I don’t think I’ve actually met someone that did their stuff in 4 years even though it is possible in theory.

 

[KidPharmD]

Is your alma matter a 3 year program that accepts all prereqs from community college? That is what we are questioning. So far we've only heard crickets. I don't even know of any community college that offers orgo for example.

No it's not. That part I don't know is possible. It wouldn't surprise me if LECOM would take all community credits. My school still only takes community credits that are accepted by the university it's tied too as transfer credits. If they wouldn't transfer they don't count. I was mostly trying to point out that his summer, fall, spring,summer schedule isn't actually a year of pre-requisite coursework. It's two years crammed to 4 consecutive semesters. Now that I think about it, it would still probably take you the rest of the year to start pharmacy school because I don't know of any places that would accept your application for any earlier than the next fall.

 

[projektreverb]

What about AP classes counting as university credit? Does that work to shorten the time?

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

What about AP classes counting as university credit? Does that work to shorten the time?

Depends on the school I suppose but mine would only count AP math and sciences as electives. It made some semesters easier just by taking out useless classes but didn't change the timeframe.

 

[deleted562805]

It’s because they don’t waste their time taking classes like “The Fine Art of Pill Counting,” “Pre-Residency 101: How To Sucker Yourself Into 2-3 Years of Additional Training,” “Innovations in Healthcare Policy: Provider Status Edition” and “Things They Don’t Teach You at Other Graduate Programs: How To Conduct a Google Search”.



On a more serious note though, you can toss out most of the curriculum for the first two years of pharmacy school and do just fine in my opinion. Most of those intro classes are taught by long-tenured researchers who have no idea what pharmacy is but need a teaching appointment to be considered “faculty”.

Apparently, in some pharmacy schools. they are getting rid of that. and get " clinical pharmacy pharmacy faculty" to teach students. They do cases in a "team based environment." . some are faculty who just a did a residency and went to teaching in a pharmacy school.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

they need to have two degrees. One is a retail/community degree that is 3 years and is just a license type degree. The other would be a 7 year clinical pharmacy degree

Except you need to know more in retail pharmacy. Clinical consists of pulling algos and dosing up on your phone. And what loser is going 7 years for a pharmacy degree when they can get a PA degree faster and do 50x more with it than a 7 year pharm degree?

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

where can you do this?

VCU used to do this but they did away with it.

 

[confettiflyer]

It mirrors life, remember when someone with a HS diploma could get a job and live a modest life? Yeah, me either.

Like how entry level $15/hr jobs posted online require a BS/BA with 2-3 years experience.

Pharmacy isn’t different.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Except you need to know more in retail pharmacy. Clinical consists of pulling algos and dosing up on your phone. And what loser is going 7 years for a pharmacy degree when they can get a PA degree faster and do 50x more with it than a 7 year pharm degree?

you could say the same about people doing 6 + 2 PGY + 2 FELLOWSHIP in pharmacy right now. Wouldn't they be able to do 'more' as a PA?

 

[Twentytwelve2]

In the past, a bachelor's degree was considered a good degree. Now, it is considered a stepping stone to a higher degree.
The trend is happening in this country. Higher, higher, degrees. More "training" and "education" and more debt.
We are going to put our nation into bigger student debt because of this non-sense.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

you could say the same about people doing 6 + 2 PGY + 2 FELLOWSHIP in pharmacy right now. Wouldn't they be able to do 'more' as a PA?

Lol at all that and not being able to even administer medication to a patient, much less even touch them.