ph.d > md?

[MEG@COOL]

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a colleague of mine told me today that a ph.d is a "higher" degree than an md. of course, this person couldn't substantiate the claim with anything other than "go ask any of the PIs".

I would consider a PHD a "higher degree" than an MD in Engineering, Math, Physical sciences, CS, possibly other ones. Some PHD are also fluff, but I believe that a PHD in the degrees listed is potentially more challenging than obtaining an MD.

 

[cbc]

Moosepilot, I am just saying the popular "I turned it down for something else therefore it is not the preferred route for anybody else either" does not work. Just because one turns down a US General doesn't make it less prestigious/covetted in everyone else's eyes.

Gujudoc, I was not at all degrading pharmacy. Did you just tell everyone to stop bagging on other professions, then go on to bag janitors saying they are worthless replaceables? And if you are so pristine that you don't care about prestige, why the heck are you arguing here about it as though you do care?

I've got no problem with someone who says an MD is more prestigious than a DO. That's all perception and perception is distressingly fluid. However, I read your post where you said "Just because certain few people turned down the offer of being a US General to be a local police officer (for any reason you want to give) doesn't mean the prestige/competence of the former and latter are equal, at least not to most people." and figured you were saying DOs were less competent than MDs on a scale similar to a General Officer and a local police officer. In my experience, Colonels may be in charge of an Air Force Wing, which can be equivalent to small town, an airport, and a small airline all combined. Colonels who do really great work get promoted to General, so the gap you're portraying is huge and in my opinion false.

 

[adamj61]

I would consider a PHD a "higher degree" than an MD in Engineering, Math, Physical sciences, CS, possibly other ones. Some PHD are also fluff, but I believe that a PHD in the degrees listed is potentially more challenging than obtaining an MD.

I agree, it all depends on what PHD we are talking about. I didn't read the whole thread, but if anyone was bashing pharms they are nuts. We don't learn anything about drugs compaired to them...at least not until a residency. They are constantly giving advice...I think that is what they are paid to do.

It might take a lot more natural talent to get a math PHD than an MD....i don't think most of us could hack that.

 

[courtyard]

I would consider a PHD a "higher degree" than an MD in Engineering, Math, Physical sciences, CS, possibly other ones. Some PHD are also fluff, but I believe that a PHD in the degrees listed is potentially more challenging than obtaining an MD.

I tend to notice that people who aim for MD are career-oriented people. For these people financial security and job security are priority in their decisions.
PhD people, in general, seem more intellectual-oriented people. Let's face it, PhD does not guarantee a job the way professional degrees such as MD, JD, or MBA do. Yet they pursue it mainly because they truly enjoy the specific field they choose to dedicate their lives studying.

One could say MD is higher degree than a PhD given that it is far more competitive to get into medical school then probably respective graduate programs. However, if someone said that in the laboratory setting, I could see how someone could say that PhD is a higher degree, as PhD is designed to train researchers who would be more adroit laboratory rats.

 

[adamj61]

MD= "Makes Decisions"

I didn't even really know what DO was until about a week ago., and I agree that until people really start doing it because of the school, then it matters. I agree with the guy that said people always try to down play being a doc. I am at the Mayo Clinic this summer, and some of the best nursing students in the country are here for an intern or something as well. They all told me..."I could have done that" I really wish people wouldn't say that...who knows how you would feel about this application process!

 

[TripleDegree]

a colleague of mine told me today that a ph.d is a "higher" degree than an md. of course, this person couldn't substantiate the claim with anything other than "go ask any of the PIs".

What nonsense! Comparing a Ph.D to an MD??? PhD's are literally a dime a dozen here. Yeah, maybe its a terminal degree, but in most cases its just a matter of a time commitment to get a Ph.D. Not very selective.

I also find it funny that some Ph.D's choose to call themselves Doctor. Come on folks. At this rate, we'll have pharmacists calling themselves Doctor too - based on the Pharm.D. degree.

Before you get ready to flame me, I'm half jesting 😀 But I do believe that the MD degree is in a class by its own.

 

[45408]

The attrition rate is very low because people who get in are usually very motivated to get in, and because the schools try desperately to keep it low. Med school isn't just an in-n-out program - most med students say it's pretty difficult.

 

[45408]

I think the US may be the only country that places emphysis in "broad education" and "soul-searching to make sure that medicine is really the career for you."

It's because they have so many candidates to choose from that they can pick absolutely anybody they want. I bet 1 in 8-10 freshman pre-meds actually make it to med school.

If you make it this far without committing suicide, you have to hand in a humongous thesis (often close to 1000 pages), and defend it in front of a group of critics. Its not just a 'turn it in, and you're a PhD,' again you have to sit through hours of drilling . If you survive this without being reduced to tears, you will finally get your PhD.

Uh, no. All the PhDs, post-docs and grad students I know have dissertations around 300-400 pages.

My research prof told me that the difference is that it's really hard to get into med school, but then really easy to get a job, whereas it's really easy to get into grad school, but then really hard to get a job.

 

[Tinkerbell]

My boyfriend is working on his PhD in Computer Science at the moment and I'm going off to medical school this year. I always joke and say I'm going to be "the real doctor" between the 2 of us, and I constantly ask people if they were having a heart attack in a restaurant who would you want to be there to help, an MD or a PhD? But in all seriousness I have so much respect for what my boyfriend does and how hard he works that I think our degrees will be equal in the end. Just don't let him know that.

 

[TripleDegree]

My boyfriend is working on his PhD in Computer Science at the moment and I'm going off to medical school this year. I always joke and say I'm going to be "the real doctor" between the 2 of us, and I constantly ask people if they were having a heart attack in a restaurant who would you want to be there to help, an MD or a PhD? But in all seriousness I have so much respect for what my boyfriend does and how hard he works that I think our degrees will be equal in the end. Just don't let him know that.

with all due respect to your boyfriend, there is no comparison between the rigors of an MD to a Ph.D. I'm talking about the whole process - getting in, getting through, getting out (i.e. residency) and fighting against the system (e.g. managed care). PhD's live in their academic ivory tower. If you believe in the true capital model, then people get paid what they deserve. Not sure if you've seen recent Ph.D. salaries, but they generally are in the 50s or 60s for even one in Computer science. Trust me, I know coz I have a graduate degree in CS.

And I won't let him know, no worries

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

I also find it funny that some Ph.D's choose to call themselves Doctor.

What would you suggest a person who has just earned a doctorate to call themselves? I've personally never heard a PhD tell anyone "I'm a doctor," but it is to be expected that, after putting in years of hard work, they should have the right to use the prefix "Dr." Its not like they're trying to practice medicine, people, so asking random people whether they'd rather be treated by a PhD or an MD (tinkerbell) is THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!!! I seriously hope that this will be my competition when applying to med school.

I can't believe this is a 6 page thread!

 

[jpro]

If you look at it from a $ point of view then MD>PhD. This doesn't mean anything in terms of which one is better. Try this out. Think of the greatest PhD of all time and then think of the greatest MD of all time. Compare those to answer this question. PhD's change the world. MD's change peoples lives. What is more important to you?

Don't just look at the PhD's you see at medical school. Think about those that are in other fields such as theoretical physics and solid state chemistry. They break the boundaries so that us future MD's can do more to help our patients. Marie Curie discovered raiation and changed the world while hundreds if not thousands of MD's simply use her discovery today to fight cancer or to take high resolution images of the human body.

I think the BIG difference between PhD and MD is simply how your work makes an impact. Do you want to help people or do you want to help all people.

If you don't like research go into medicine. If you love medicine and research get a MD/PhD. If you simply love research get a PhD. Nuf said.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Uh, no. All the PhDs, post-docs and grad students I know have dissertations around 300-400 pages.

Well, all of the dissertations I've read through this summer have been around 800-900 on average. I've seen some that were shorter, of course, and a few longer.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

BTW, getting a science PhD from Harvard PhD isn't anywhere near as impressive as getting one from CalTech or MIT.

depends on what your field is. a PhD in a non-technical field isn't very impressive at MIT or CalTech as it is at Harvard. A PhD in MechE definitely would be nice at CalTech.

don't hit me, i'll hit you back.

 

[sunkists]

just to throw out there if it hasn't been discussed already --

the field of clinical psychology offers two terminal routes -- PsyD and PhD.

the PhD is more competitive than the PsyD and when i found out just how competitive PhD programs are, i was shocked. go check out some statistics on admittance rates -- typically a good program will have between 150-300 applicants for about 8 positions. that's pretty bad. and their stats are pretty high with GPAs that average around 3.8 for a good school. granted, they are not upper div chem classes but there are some upper div psych, bio and neuro classes that do get pretty rough. so yeah, hats off to some of them. soon enough, they'll be able to prescribe drugs too -- theres a whole association of them fighting for that right as we speak.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Can we clarify whether we're basing which degree (MD or science PhD) is higher based on admission to the program, intensity of the program, or what happens after? Admissions is a pretty worthless point of comparison, as it is a given that professional programs (MD, DO) are going to have tougher admissions because space is limited.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

everyone's point of view is good but the bottom line is this.

just cuz you have a PhD after your name does not make it impressive. you could get a PhD from no name university that accepts just about anyone. if you have a PhD from a good program then sure it's prestigious but the initials don't come with what school you went to. it doesn't say John Doe, PhD (University of Chicago). it just says John Doe, PhD. who knows where he got it? there are some PhD's at lesser known colleges that are pretty easy to obtain. on the other hand if you have an MD, it almost always looks good. an MD from any US school is good. granted you can have one of those lame-o MD's from the caribbean but if you're a practicing MD in the US, chances are you went through a pretty rough time in med school and definitely had to pass 3 pretty hard board exams.

 

[medic170]

What would you suggest a person who has just earned a doctorate to call themselves? I've personally never heard a PhD tell anyone "I'm a doctor," but it is to be expected that, after putting in years of hard work, they should have the right to use the prefix "Dr." Its not like they're trying to practice medicine, people, so asking random people whether they'd rather be treated by a PhD or an MD (tinkerbell) is THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!!! I seriously hope that this will be my competition when applying to med school.

I can't believe this is a 6 page thread!

My thoughts exactly

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

Well, you can't argue that there are hack MDs out there just as there are hack PhDs; only difference is that PhDs have a much lower chance of hurting people because of it.

Also, you have to consider what people plan to do with the PhDs. Earning an MD pretty much maps out your future; with the exception of some dual degrees, you'll probably end up practicing medicine of some sort. PhDs have wider options; some get their PhDs knowing that they want to teach, others get it to increase credentials for obtaining a respectible position in industry. Others work for the government, university labs, and private labs. So if you are going for a PhD just to work in industry or government, its not necessary to go the most prestigious graduate program. If you plan to teach, you have to go to a slightly more rigorous program, depending on where you plan to teach/research.

 

[bearpaw]

how about this...next time someone asks what you're doing in the future, say you're going to graduate school. If you want to lie for a second, tell them you're going to get a phD in something. Tell someone else you're going to med school. Compare responses.

I don't like telling people in real life i am going to med school, so I just say graduate school and people just nod it off like it's nothing. If they start pressing, like "in what", i say "in medicine". You should see how they react. I don't covet the attention, but i do know that going to med school impresses most people, especially since anyone who has been to college knows so many "super smart" people that just couldn't get in.

 

[notJERRYFALWELL]

how about this...next time someone asks what you're doing in the future, say you're going to graduate school. If you want to lie for a second, tell them you're going to get a phD in something. Tell someone else you're going to med school. Compare responses.

I don't like telling people in real life i am going to med school, so I just say graduate school and people just nod it off like it's nothing. If they start pressing, like "in what", i say "in medicine". You should see how they react. I don't covet the attention, but i do know that going to med school impresses most people, especially since anyone who has been to college knows so many "super smart" people that just couldn't get in.

But again, if we're going to compare it just based on admissions, then there's no point in continuing the discussion, because that was settled 6 pages ago.

 

[Blake]

how about this...next time someone asks what you're doing in the future, say you're going to graduate school. If you want to lie for a second, tell them you're going to get a phD in something. Tell someone else you're going to med school. Compare responses.

I don't like telling people in real life i am going to med school, so I just say graduate school and people just nod it off like it's nothing. If they start pressing, like "in what", i say "in medicine". You should see how they react. I don't covet the attention, but i do know that going to med school impresses most people, especially since anyone who has been to college knows so many "super smart" people that just couldn't get in.

Haha, I've seen those faces. I never tell I am a med student, until someone specifically asks about my program in university. 😳 It'll be harder to lie in 2 months though, because the medical faculty is like 1 mile away from anything non-med-related at Sherbrooke...

 

[Gut Shot]

An interesting snippet on the history of the doctorate degree:

http://curry.edschool.virginia.edu/class/edhs/932/EDHS_932_041/History.htm

 

[Tinkerbell]

What would you suggest a person who has just earned a doctorate to call themselves? I've personally never heard a PhD tell anyone "I'm a doctor," but it is to be expected that, after putting in years of hard work, they should have the right to use the prefix "Dr." Its not like they're trying to practice medicine, people, so asking random people whether they'd rather be treated by a PhD or an MD (tinkerbell) is THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!!! I seriously hope that this will be my competition when applying to med school.

I can't believe this is a 6 page thread!

Sorry my joke was lost on you and no I'm not your competition in applying to medical school. I've already been accepted. 😀 Also, advanced degrees are not for people who are mostly concerned about their ego's or accomplishments, but rather, about how they can best help society with their talents. Don't worry about who else is applying to medical school. Worry about whether medical school is the best way for you to contribute and Ph.D = "Doctor of Philosophy", so the term "doctor" ok. Formal Definition-"doctor" [middle english "an expert, authority", old french docteur, latin doctor "teacher" from docre - "to teach"]. Just cause the public recognizes a doctor as an MD doesn't mean that physicians are the only doctors!

 

[MEG@COOL]

I tend to notice that people who aim for MD are career-oriented people. For these people financial security and job security are priority in their decisions.
PhD people, in general, seem more intellectual-oriented people. Let's face it, PhD does not guarantee a job the way professional degrees such as MD, JD, or MBA do. Yet they pursue it mainly because they truly enjoy the specific field they choose to dedicate their lives studying.

One could say MD is higher degree than a PhD given that it is far more competitive to get into medical school then probably respective graduate programs. However, if someone said that in the laboratory setting, I could see how someone could say that PhD is a higher degree, as PhD is designed to train researchers who would be more adroit laboratory rats.

This is a completely invalid post. The first paragraph is completely unrelated to my post as well as explaining the point that you are attempting to argue.

The second paragraph uses flawed logic in explaining why the MD degree is higher. Simple exclusiveness of entry into a program does not determine difficulty of completion. The content of the program as well as competition among ones peers determines difficulty.
MD has competition similar to or greater than other fields, but lacks the utterly abstruse concepts present in other fields.

 

[medic170]

This is a completely invalid post. The first paragraph is completely unrelated to my post as well as explaining the point that you are attempting to argue.

The second paragraph uses flawed logic in explaining why the MD degree is higher. Simple exclusiveness of entry into a program does not determine difficulty of completion. The content of the program as well as competition among ones peers determines difficulty.
MD has competition similar to or greater than other fields, but lacks the utterly abstruse concepts present in other fields.

Is that what your daddy told you after he won the stanly cup after performing his 100th surgery? Or did you learn about that in high school while studying for the sat so you could skip college and go right to residency?

 

[MEG@COOL]

Is that what your daddy told you after he won the stanly cup after performing his 100th surgery? Or did you learn about that in high school while studying for the sat so you could skip college and go right to residency?

Your first huess was WRONG, but CLOSE. He told me that B4 HE WON.