Pharmacy Over-supply??

[SHC1984]

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My parents are giving me their house, mortgage paid-in-full, hand over fist. I pay a one time gift tax (or, God forbid, an estate tax) and it's all mine. Yes, my parents and I have made several plans for the future already.

Your argument seems inconsistent. The "*****s with a pulse" (coined by others before me on this forum, by the by) are getting into the "diploma mills" because they weren't good enough to get into the big name schools, yet when it comes the time when the name of your school is important, the *****s from the mills are taking more qualified people's jobs? I missed something in your argument. And for the record, I was also accepted to UB for the fall to pursue a bachelor's degree, but since I was also accepted to pharmacy school this year, I opted for SJF rather than waiting another two years to apply at UB (which makes it twice now that I've been accepted at UB and opted to go elsewhere).

More to your argument, you completely glanced over what I said. I get that in some areas, competition is already very tight and your school name is very important. This is happening right now and will be more prevalent as time goes on. Western New York is not one of those areas yet, and will not be upon my graduation (nor will it be for quite some time). I'll be able to get settled into a job and have experience. A surplus in all of Western New York is still a long, long time off, so I'll have plenty of work experience to back up my resume when the time comes and I have to fight for a job. Trust me, I've thought this through and done my homework on the situation. I know that there are too many pharmacy schools (moreso in terms of where they are as opposed to the sheer number), but I'm confident that this situation will resolve before our field is too far gone. When pharmacy students in regions of the country can't find a job that pays enough to allow them to pay back their loans to the government, and the government is suddenly getting taken to the cleaners on student loans, I'm sure there'll be changes made. Nothing shakes things up like the government when they're pissed off about getting their money.

You have a great deal then. 🙂 My argument isn't that all the no name pharmacy school graduates are taking jobs from people gradutating from good name schools...(althought I am sure it has happnened before...🙄)I guess its just frustrating to me b/c I went into pharmacy b/c I like stability and the ability to work/live anywhere I want thats why I went into pharmacy. And its frustrating to see that it will be "hard" if not impossible to find jobs in places that are actually "nice" to live at. 😱 All I want is to live in a very nice city and make 120K a year (or 70K after taxes🙄) and relax...I am not asking for much at all, but I guess thats harder then I thought it would be.

 

[IrishHammer]

You have a great deal then. 🙂 My argument isn't that all the no name pharmacy school graduates are taking jobs from people gradutating from good name schools...(althought I am sure it has happnened before...🙄)I guess its just frustrating to me b/c I went into pharmacy b/c I like stability and the ability to work/live anywhere I want thats why I went into pharmacy. And its frustrating to see that it will be "hard" if not impossible to find jobs in places that are actually "nice" to live at. 😱 All I want is to live in a very nice city and make 120K a year (or 70K after taxes🙄) and relax...I am not asking for much at all, but I guess thats harder then I thought it would be.

The stability is nice, I can't disagree with you there...I suppose that for once, living in an undesirable region will play to my advantage, at least in that respect. I'm so used to this area that what others may see as intolerable living conditions, I'm accustomed to. Home is what you make of it, I suppose.

To be honest, though, I wouldn't worry too much anyway. As I've stated before (and I think you were even one of the ones who openly agreed with me), this problem won't last forever. A bad economy combined with the continuing notion of a shortage of pharmacists has created the situation that is staring many current pharmacy students right in the face, but neither of those situations will be around forever. The economy will recover (sooner or later...), and once word of saturation in the more desirable markets starts to get out, pharmacy will stop attracting so many new students and new schools the way it has the past several years. Market forces, when left alone, can be very effective in regulating pretty much anything. That aside, even in the interim, the skilled people who can communicate effectively and know their information cold will always be marketable and a desirable candidate for a job. I know I've quoted this before, but as confettiflyer said many moons ago, "You'll have a job...you'll just have to know how to get one."

Am I being naive? I don't think so. I've seen that many of the posters on this site are well spoken and intelligent, plus this site is a great resource to help people hit the ground running after getting their PharmD. I'm sure there are scores of pharmacy students who don't know about this forum and aren't getting a lot of the group advice and support that posters here enjoy (hell, I was the only person in my Organic Chemistry class who had heard of this site, and we produced four pharmacy students, three PA students, and one med chem student). There aren't many people on this forum that I forsee being starving pharmacists in the future.

 

[rjk]

from what I've seen over the past 7 years (and still going on this year, even with the job market tightening) is that if you're a solid intern who does your work, doesn't call out all the time, and is generally liked by your preceptor and co-workers, you're almost guaranteed a job upon graduation.

The numbers are intimidating, but it boils down to connections and personalities. Establish yourself as an intern, and you most likely won't have a problem.

 

[Taurus]

The economy will recover (sooner or later...), and once word of saturation in the more desirable markets starts to get out, pharmacy will stop attracting so many new students and new schools the way it has the past several years. Market forces, when left alone, can be very effective in regulating pretty much anything.

I think that you are being too optimistic. These pharm schools are mushrooming because they are relatively cheap to start and they make money for universities. As long as universities turn a profit on the pharm school, the universities won't close them down, regardless of what the job market is like for grads. Even if pharm salaries drop to 60k, I highly doubt that pharm schools will have any trouble attracting applicants. Pharm schools are following in the same mold as business and law schools. "Everyone" knows that there's an oversaturation of MBA's and JD's and yet they keep opening more business and law schools and there's no shortage of applicants. You should read the threads on JD Undergound. Lawyers who did not attend the top 14 law schools are whining how they are graduating with 100k+ debt and getting only 40k jobs. Unless the ACPE tightens the credentialing standards for pharm schools, it's going to get ugly for pharm in the near future.

 

[SHC1984]

I think that you are being too optimistic. These pharm schools are mushrooming because they are relatively cheap to start and they make money for universities. As long as universities turn a profit on the pharm school, the universities won't close them down, regardless of what the job market is like for grads. Even if pharm salaries drop to 60k, I highly doubt that pharm schools will have any trouble attracting applicants. Pharm schools are following in the same mold as business and law schools. "Everyone" knows that there's an oversaturation of MBA's and JD's and yet they keep opening more business and law schools and there's no shortage of applicants. You should read the threads on JD Undergound. Lawyers who did not attend the top 14 law schools are whining how they are graduating with 100k+ debt and getting only 40k jobs. Unless the ACPE tightens the credentialing standards for pharm schools, it's going to get ugly for pharm in the near future.

Are you freaking kidding me??? 60K a year??? hell no. No one in their right mind will go to 4 years of college and 4 years of pharmacy school for a 60K salary. There are people with NO college degrees that make more then that. You are crazy.

 

[SHC1984]

The stability is nice, I can't disagree with you there...I suppose that for once, living in an undesirable region will play to my advantage, at least in that respect. I'm so used to this area that what others may see as intolerable living conditions, I'm accustomed to. Home is what you make of it, I suppose.

To be honest, though, I wouldn't worry too much anyway. As I've stated before (and I think you were even one of the ones who openly agreed with me), this problem won't last forever. A bad economy combined with the continuing notion of a shortage of pharmacists has created the situation that is staring many current pharmacy students right in the face, but neither of those situations will be around forever. The economy will recover (sooner or later...), and once word of saturation in the more desirable markets starts to get out, pharmacy will stop attracting so many new students and new schools the way it has the past several years. Market forces, when left alone, can be very effective in regulating pretty much anything. That aside, even in the interim, the skilled people who can communicate effectively and know their information cold will always be marketable and a desirable candidate for a job. I know I've quoted this before, but as confettiflyer said many moons ago, "You'll have a job...you'll just have to know how to get one."

Am I being naive? I don't think so. I've seen that many of the posters on this site are well spoken and intelligent, plus this site is a great resource to help people hit the ground running after getting their PharmD. I'm sure there are scores of pharmacy students who don't know about this forum and aren't getting a lot of the group advice and support that posters here enjoy (hell, I was the only person in my Organic Chemistry class who had heard of this site, and we produced four pharmacy students, three PA students, and one med chem student). There aren't many people on this forum that I forsee being starving pharmacists in the future.

I agree with you about market forces eventually taking over...I think the salaries of pharmacists will eventually drop though...🙁 which will lead to people leaving the profession to do something that makes a lot more money and the salary will increase again...and the same cycle will occur....I just hope the salary don't drop too much b/c I need $$ to pay back my student loans. I want to pay it all back and eventually work 2 days a week. Hell the less I work and the MORE I relax the better. I just want to sit at the beach all day. (thats what I will be doing after I quit Walgreens! )

 

[Taurus]

Are you freaking kidding me??? 60K a year??? hell no. No one in their right mind will go to 4 years of college and 4 years of pharmacy school for a 60K salary. There are people with NO college degrees that make more then that. You are crazy.

And yet you have people who attend law school for 3 years, rack up 100k+ in debt, and make 40k per year. It's called market forces.

 

[SHC1984]

And yet you have people who attend law school for 3 years, rack up 100k+ in debt, and make 40k per year. It's called market forces.

there is no way anyone can afford to work for 40k a year when they are in 100K+ in debt. Unless 1) their parents pay it off for them or 2) they live with their parents and eat instant noodles everyday. Even then there is NO way mathematically how any one person can survive with that much debt and that little pay. Maybe they live in a cardboard box?

 

[Taurus]

there is no way anyone can afford to work for 40k a year when they are in 100K+ in debt. Unless 1) their parents pay it off for them or 2) they live with their parents and eat instant noodles everyday. Even then there is NO way mathematically how any one person can survive with that much debt and that little pay. Maybe they live in a cardboard box?

If all you got is a worthless liberal arts degree like biology or history, you take whatever comes your way. There are so many threads on JDU about the scam that is most law schools. Here's just a small sample. The question is, is pharm heading in the same direction as most business and law schools? At this rate, yes.

I will NEVER own a home. I will NEVER be able to retire. Every year that goes by my student loan balance only gets bigger, despite paying tons in interest. It is like throwing money down a perpetual black hole. The constant un and underemployment. All this for a STUPID MISTAKE I made when I was in my early 20's. Even rapists and murderers eventually get a second chance. If you know anybody planning on attending BLS, sneak up behind them and gouge their eyes out with a pencil. They may be eternally blind, but they will eventually thank you for saving them from Brooklyn Law School.​

 

[SHC1984]

If all you got is a worthless liberal arts degree like biology or history, you take whatever comes your way. There are so many threads on JDU about the scam that is most law schools. Here's just a small sample. The question is, is pharm heading in the same direction as most business and law schools? At this rate, yes.

I will NEVER own a home. I will NEVER be able to retire. Every year that goes by my student loan balance only gets bigger, despite paying tons in interest. It is like throwing money down a perpetual black hole. The constant un and underemployment. All this for a STUPID MISTAKE I made when I was in my early 20's. Even rapists and murderers eventually get a second chance. If you know anybody planning on attending BLS, sneak up behind them and gouge their eyes out with a pencil. They may be eternally blind, but they will eventually thank you for saving them from Brooklyn Law School.
​

Fair enough...a lawyer needs to come from a TOP law school in order to make $$$. So eventually a pharmacist would have to come from a TOP pharmacy school in order to make $$$ as well...and I agree with that. I just hope Mercer Pharmacy is one of the TOP pharmacy schools b/c thats where I will be going! Its just too bad that I miss the deadline for UNC. 🙁

 

[IrishHammer]

If all you got is a worthless liberal arts degree like biology or history, you take whatever comes your way. There are so many threads on JDU about the scam that is most law schools. Here's just a small sample. The question is, is pharm heading in the same direction as most business and law schools? At this rate, yes.

I will NEVER own a home. I will NEVER be able to retire. Every year that goes by my student loan balance only gets bigger, despite paying tons in interest. It is like throwing money down a perpetual black hole. The constant un and underemployment. All this for a STUPID MISTAKE I made when I was in my early 20's. Even rapists and murderers eventually get a second chance. If you know anybody planning on attending BLS, sneak up behind them and gouge their eyes out with a pencil. They may be eternally blind, but they will eventually thank you for saving them from Brooklyn Law School.​

Not to be a dick about this or anything, but I wonder just how effective some of those lawyers that only pull in 40K are. I mean, a lawyer that can't win cases, or that can't put together strong arguments in court, won't get much work. You can't tell me with a straight face that there aren't still plenty of lawyers out there that make good money. If there are subpar lawyers out there who shouldn't even be in the field, they deserve to make that little of money and should get out of the field and find something else to do ASAP. I'd say the same of someone if they were a terrible pharmacist.

 

[yappy]

Regarding the pharmacy school/law school analogy - one major flaw in your logic... how do law firms make money? How does a pharmacy make money? Think that one over for a while.

 

[gotmilklol]

Are you freaking kidding me??? 60K a year??? hell no. No one in their right mind will go to 4 years of college and 4 years of pharmacy school for a 60K salary. There are people with NO college degrees that make more then that. You are crazy.

ya my dad actually makes 75k per year w/o a college degree (QA Anyalist) 😛

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

I think that you are being too optimistic. These pharm schools are mushrooming because they are relatively cheap to start and they make money for universities. As long as universities turn a profit on the pharm school, the universities won't close them down, regardless of what the job market is like for grads. Even if pharm salaries drop to 60k, I highly doubt that pharm schools will have any trouble attracting applicants. Pharm schools are following in the same mold as business and law schools. "Everyone" knows that there's an oversaturation of MBA's and JD's and yet they keep opening more business and law schools and there's no shortage of applicants. You should read the threads on JD Undergound. Lawyers who did not attend the top 14 law schools are whining how they are graduating with 100k+ debt and getting only 40k jobs. Unless the ACPE tightens the credentialing standards for pharm schools, it's going to get ugly for pharm in the near future.

GREAT post tarus, like usual! 👍

 

[mildlyneurotic]

By the time it happens though, we'll all already have our years of pharmacy experience which trumps everything.

 

[confettiflyer]

My parents are giving me their house, mortgage paid-in-full, hand over fist. I pay a one time gift tax (or, God forbid, an estate tax) and it's all mine. Yes, my parents and I have made several plans for the future already.

Hope that property is in a revocable living trust (w/ A-B trust) and that you're not describing a will...or else you're gonna get reamed with estate taxes/probate.

 

[KARM12]

By the time it happens though, we'll all already have our years of pharmacy experience which trumps everything.

Except that it is starting to happen now...before you are even in school.

 

[IrishHammer]

Hope that property is in a revocable living trust (w/ A-B trust) and that you're not describing a will...or else you're gonna get reamed with estate taxes/probate.

Right now it's just a verbal agreement between my parents (who co-own the deed) and I. Either way, the house is in Erie County, NY, so I'm gonna get reamed with taxes no matter what.

 

[SHC1984]

Regarding the pharmacy school/law school analogy - one major flaw in your logic... how do law firms make money? How does a pharmacy make money? Think that one over for a while.

your post does not make any sense. yes, law firms and pharmacys need lawyers and pharmacists to make money for them....BUT there is already a surplus and therefore not everyone will get a job. Thats what the analogy is saying. Not sure what you mean. 😕

 

[confettiflyer]

Right now it's just a verbal agreement between my parents (who co-own the deed) and I. Either way, the house is in Erie County, NY, so I'm gonna get reamed with taxes no matter what.

Well, as of right now, you'll still have to go through probate unless you get that AB trust set up. It's not so much the taxes, it's the fact that you've got to pay $25k+ for an executor and wait for that ish to clear probate before you can do anything. I guess I should make it clear the trust is tax neutral, but again...the issue is the hassles of probate.

But anyway, go retain an attorney and get that set-up. My parents and I set up our revocable trust years ago, this world is a funky place.

 

[SHC1984]

Right now it's just a verbal agreement between my parents (who co-own the deed) and I. Either way, the house is in Erie County, NY, so I'm gonna get reamed with taxes no matter what.

your parents should just change the house to your name right now...that way you don't have to pay a bunch of inheritance tax. my parents already changed a lot of their properties to my name and my sister's name so we don't have to pay any BS taxes in the future.

 

[SHC1984]

ya my dad actually makes 75k per year w/o a college degree (QA Anyalist) 😛

I know restaurant owners and business owners that make 200K+ a year and they never went to college either. Life is not fair. 🙁

 

[confettiflyer]

your parents should just change the house to your name right now...that way you don't have to pay a bunch of inheritance tax. my parents already changed a lot of their properties to my name and my sister's name so we don't have to pay any BS taxes in the future.

Did they set up a life-estate, go fee simple, or did they just quitclaim the property over to you? Hope that house is fully paid for.

 

[confettiflyer]

I know restaurant owners and business owners that make 200K+ a year and they never went to college either. Life is not fair. 🙁

Life isn't fair, oh well. They took a risk and got rewarded, good for them...that's what this country is all about.

EDIT: those owners probably lost $$$$ during their 1st 3 years and put in 80+ hours a week. Actually, no...they probably LIVED at their business/restaurant and made it their life, so $200k isn't really all that much when you break it down on a per hour basis.

 

[SHC1984]

Did they set up a life-estate, go fee simple, or did they just quitclaim the property over to you? Hope that house is fully paid for.

Good question...not sure...I just know the house is in my name and my sister's name. I think its quitclaim...but not 100% sure...why does it matter if the house is fully paid for or not? I think one is but the other two is not. Whats the difference btw fee simple and quitclaim?

 

[SHC1984]

Life isn't fair, oh well. They took a risk and got rewarded, good for them...that's what this country is all about.

EDIT: those owners probably lost $$$$ during their 1st 3 years and put in 80+ hours a week. Actually, no...they probably LIVED at their business/restaurant and made it their life, so $200k isn't really all that much when you break it down on a per hour basis.

good point...plus if we really want to get into fair/not fair...LOL... we need to talk about celebrities. Penelope Cruz makes millions a year and she never went to high school much less college. Same with Britney Spears...I think she quit high school at 15 to sing now thats LUCK at the FULLEST. But oh well, some people are lucky and some aren't...🙄

 

[confettiflyer]

Good question...not sure...I just know the house is in my name and my sister's name. I think its quitclaim...but not 100% sure...why does it matter if the house is fully paid for or not? I think one is but the other two is not. Whats the difference btw fee simple and quitclaim?

ehh talk to an attorney, it gets complicated quick. If the house isn't paid for, technically the bank has dibs on the house regardless of whether you're on the deed or not. It basically doesn't matter until the property is reconveyed/title is clear. Ask your parents, hopefully these things came up when they did their estate planning. If this sounds like ancient greek to them, you might want to push them into getting some face time with an attorney that specializes in this.

Worse, if they DID do their estate planning and their attorney didn't bring any of these things up...better find someone else.

You essentially want to set up a trust or some sort of life estate when it comes to property, it has to do with procedure and rights. If they just quit claimed the deed over to you, you don't have the benefits those legal instruments would otherwise provide.

Example would be (my memory is fuzzy, someone correct me if this is off a little) if the property is in your name under fee simple, your parents cannot claim the property tax write off for themselves whereas under life estate, they can claim it.

Also, if YOU hold title to the house and are SUED by a creditor and they file a judgment against you, they can force you to sell the house to satisfy the judgment and thus evict your parents in the process. In a life estate set up, since your parents are life tenants, the creditors cannot for a sale/eviction.

That works in reverse such that if your parents are sued by a hospital due to gigantic medical bill, they cannot force the sale of the house since you now hold title. Technically, this situation would work under fee simple, but life estate gives you the double protection.

Again, talk to a lawyer. DISCLAIMER: Please note that the legal information in this post is presented for educational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for seeking personalized legal advice from an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction.

 

[confettiflyer]

good point...plus if we really want to get into fair/not fair...LOL... we need to talk about celebrities. Penelope Cruz makes millions a year and she never went to high school much less college. Same with Britney Spears...I think she quit high school at 15 to sing now thats LUCK at the FULLEST. But oh well, some people are lucky and some aren't...🙄

Supply and demand baby, it's the same reason why pharmacists are paid so much. I can think of a handful of other professions that require just as much school/more work and they get paid less.

 

[IrishHammer]

Well, as of right now, you'll still have to go through probate unless you get that AB trust set up. It's not so much the taxes, it's the fact that you've got to pay $25k+ for an executor and wait for that ish to clear probate before you can do anything. I guess I should make it clear the trust is tax neutral, but again...the issue is the hassles of probate.

But anyway, go retain an attorney and get that set-up. My parents and I set up our revocable trust years ago, this world is a funky place.

I think my dad already has something in place with his attorney, he's way too shrewd to not have his bases covered on something like this. I don't know the fine details, I didn't plan on asking until a little farther down the road, but I do know that my parents plan on signing the house over to either me or my sister (who likely won't take it because there's 4 acres and her husband-to-be hates yard work). It's one of those "cross that bridge when I get there" scenarios. Thanks for the info though, I'll keep that in mind when the time rolls around.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think my dad already has something in place with his attorney, he's way too shrewd to not have his bases covered on something like this. I don't know the fine details, I didn't plan on asking until a little farther down the road, but I do know that my parents plan on signing the house over to either me or my sister (who likely won't take it because there's 4 acres and her husband-to-be hates yard work). It's one of those "cross that bridge when I get there" scenarios. Thanks for the info though, I'll keep that in mind when the time rolls around.

Hmm sounds good, I just see red flags when I read "sign over the house" because, well...yeah y'all read my posts above. Unfortunately, you don't know when the bridge is here until you've crossed it halfway.

 

[IrishHammer]

Hmm sounds good, I just see red flags when I read "sign over the house" because, well...yeah y'all read my posts above. Unfortunately, you don't know when the bridge is here until you've crossed it halfway.

Red flags would be understandable, especially because nothing legal is ever as easy as it sounds. I've still got several years to start looking into it, I'm sure that once this semester comes to a close and things get slow over the summer, I will have more time to delve into the issue with my parents.

 

[confettiflyer]

Red flags would be understandable, especially because nothing legal is ever as easy as it sounds. I've still got several years to start looking into it, I'm sure that once this semester comes to a close and things get slow over the summer, I will have more time to delve into the issue with my parents.

Depending on culture, even talking to parents can be tough. My parents are in health care, so they kinda just went up to me one day and said "when we die..." etc etc. I think even "if i get dementia or some deadly virus" came up. I'm all set as a trustee to the estate + a durable POA /advanced directives and the whole shebang, they basically just want me to pull the plug. I'd like to think I'll keep them around for a while just in case.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Confetti is spot-on with the real estate mumbo-jumbo.

I have been locked in a dead-heat probate for the last 17 months over my father's estate with the executor (Who was placed in this capacity because I was overseas deployed when my father passed on).

It's ended up being double attorney's fees (One in CA, one in MD), endless court abeyances, you name it. My dad did not set up an air-tight will before he passed, it was a DIY, so my atty. had to really tease it apart to get everything squared away.

And we did not have an A-B trust for the house+property. So, guess what? Insane capital gains+estate tax.

Confetti is right Irish, make sure you get that into an A-B trust ASAP so you don't have to go through the pain that is probate, or at least if you still need to go probate for whatever reason, at least the house will be settled.

It's a painful process and it feels like my father dies again every day having to deal with it constantly. Not to mention the $79 phone calls my attorney has been making for the last year and a half.

 

[thephoenician88]

oh, so everyone stopped bickering about pharmacist positions, now we're bickering about lawyers and real estate lol.

 

[confettiflyer]

oh, so everyone stopped bickering about pharmacist positions, now we're bickering about lawyers and real estate lol.

i have a tendency to make things go off topic...and i wouldn't call it bickering, i'd call it "less optimal outcome avoidance."

and geesh, passion4sci, i didn't think anyone on these forums actually had to go through anything related to what i just talked about. everything i've been posting has either been read or experienced 2nd/3rd hand.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

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