Pharmacy students and graduates, any advice?

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jhawkins16

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Hey guys. I got accepted and I'll be attending University of Tennessee school of Pharmacy in the Fall. Since you guys are currently living the Pharmacy life, what would you tell your younger self before you started Pharmacy school?
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Don’t just worry about what you do in the classroom. Explore all your options during the summer, there’s more to pharmacy than just hospitals and retails
 
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jhawkins16 said:
Hey guys. I got accepted and I'll be attending University of Tennessee school of Pharmacy in the Fall. Since you guys are currently living the Pharmacy life, what would you tell your younger self before you started Pharmacy school?
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Get a mentor from the upper class ASAP.I made some silly mistakes because the P2's were on rotation when we started..
 
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nonizondi said:
Get a mentor from the upper class ASAP.I made some silly mistakes because the P2's were on rotation when we started..
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Do I just approach one and say "will you teach me your ways oh wise one in the pharmacy arts?".
 
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wucool33 said:
Don’t just worry about what you do in the classroom. Explore all your options during the summer, there’s more to pharmacy than just hospitals and retails
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I'd like to get an internship at the hospital that is associated at UTHSC if possible. During the year I'd like to work as a intern tech at one of the local Pharmacies. I want to make myself stand out as much as possible to be more competitive against oversaturation.
 
jhawkins16 said:
Hey guys. I got accepted and I'll be attending University of Tennessee school of Pharmacy in the Fall. Since you guys are currently living the Pharmacy life, what would you tell your younger self before you started Pharmacy school?
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Pharmacy school has nothing to do with retail pharmacy and get out while you can.
 
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jhawkins16 said:
I believe that as the profession grows pharmacy schools will become even more competitive. Maybe not as bad as medical school, but I believe that pre-pharmacy students like myself should consider ourselves lucky for applying now instead of 10 years from now. Froms sources I've read the pharmacy profession is expected to grow by 25% through just 2020. That's insane.
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jhawkins16 said:
May I ask why? Is it really that oversaturated?
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jhawkins16 said:
I plan on going into clinical pharmacy anyway.
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You're gonna have a bad time...

Advice to myself [and to you]: do your homework before making decisions.
 
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jhawkins16 said:
Do I just approach one and say "will you teach me your ways oh wise one in the pharmacy arts?".
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You might find it funny until you blow up your grades and find yourself struggling to make it up with the finals. Contact some upper classmen through their class facebook page and ask them how to study and prepare for exams and if they can give you a copy of their syllabus and list of books. Most of them would be willing to help out. I kept failing biochemistry and immunology till I met with an upper classman who directed me on how to study smarter and effectively. It's better to get the best grades earlier because the materials and exams get more challenging and difficult as the semester progresses. Pharmacy school is not the cake walk many people here on sdn make it seem. Some people still fail out..
 
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jhawkins16 said:
I plan on going into clinical pharmacy anyway.
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Don't listen to the majority of people on this forum about clinical pharmacy. Most are jaded and can be a**es about going into that part of the profession. However, the advice of be ready to do retail because not everyone is chosen to do clinical pharmacy is true. Residency is incredibly competitive and just keeps on getting more competitive. Here is my advice for that route.

1.)Try to get involved at the COP. You don't have to be the VP or President for the organizations, but getting committee positions and maybe one exec position builds your CV well.
2.) make sure you get a job. It does not matter if its hospital or retail. Residency sites pretty much expect you have a job and can be a black mark if you don't.
3.) do the mentor program your school offers. Don't stress about getting school information from the upper classmen because they sign up for the program knowing that the point of the program is to give advice to PY1s. Just be your normal self and make friends. They will give you advice.
4.) you need to make sure you have a good GPA. above 3.0 is the standard but above 3.5 looks great. Everyone has different study habits that works for them so it'll take time to find what works best for you. Personally, i started studying based off the objectives (answered them in great detail) and it made such a difference in my grades with less work than I was doing originally.
5.) speak with faculty about doing research, presentations, or publications. Really all you need to do is shoot them an email asking about this kinda stuff. They get it all the time and know exactly what to do so don't sweat it.
6.) do some volunteering while you're in school as well. Always looks good.
 
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stoichiometrist said:
FTFY
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1) he’s not going to be a prepharm anymore. Go post that useless stuff in the prepharm section and it may offer a little value.
2) how do you know he’s even interested in CS or engineering?
Instead of offering real advice, there’s always a couple idiots in every thread repeating the same thing over and over again instead of offering real advice. This thread is about how to be better as a pharmacy student and not what to study instead of pharmacy.
 
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Talk to professors and maintain a good relationship with them from the beginning, this can help in many aspects especially letters of recommendation. Try to assess the usefulness of the course and decide if you need to attend or can just self-study the material in a fraction of the time. Focus on building your pharmacy persona, what type of candidate you want to be, what kind of experiences you find rewarding, and leverage your unique strengths and passions. First year its easy to get caught up in course content that really didn't seem to be beneficial unless you take a route like research or teaching of those specific courses (biochem, organic chem, pharmacy history). Get enough sleep, study daily for a short amount of time vs. crazy last minute scrambling a day before an exam. Be okay with not getting straight A's as long as you know the important material and can help patients, sometimes this correlates and sometimes it doesn't.

Best of luck buddy
 
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W19 said:
We are telling people to go to PA/NP; I guess the grass is always greener looking next door.
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The grass is green where you water it
 
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jhawkins16 said:
I plan on going into clinical pharmacy anyway.
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Yeah and I want to marry a Victora Secret model but I will have to settle with ogling women in the Sear's catalog.
 
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jhawkins16 said:
I plan on going into clinical pharmacy anyway.
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Reality, there are extremely few jobs in clinical pharmacy. 60% chance that you will end up in retail pharmacy. 30% chance that you will end up in hospital basement pharmacy. 2% chance that you will end up in a clinical position....and if you do, more than likely 50% of your time will be spent in the hospital basement pharmacy, and you will be making 10% less than your full-time hospital basement pharmacy peers.

Of course, these figures are for 2017. By the time you graduate, it will be more likely 80% retail, 10% hospital, and 0.25% clinical.

I love pharmacy, I love both the hospital and retail aspects of it. I loved clinical for the brief period I had such a job (but reality, there is clinical involved with every pharmacist job whether retail or hospital.) But be realistic, as others have said, do NOT go into pharmacy, unless you would be satisfied working full-time in retail, because most likely that is the job you will have. And as special and unique as you now seem, compared to your undergraduate peers.....you will find there is little difference between you and your pharmacy class peers and pretty much no chance of "standing out", as you and your peers will all be doing the same thing.
 
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BidingMyTime said:
Reality, there are extremely few jobs in clinical pharmacy. 60% chance that you will end up in retail pharmacy. 30% chance that you will end up in hospital basement pharmacy. 2% chance that you will end up in a clinical position....and if you do, more than likely 50% of your time will be spent in the hospital basement pharmacy, and you will be making 10% less than your full-time hospital basement pharmacy peers.

Of course, these figures are for 2017. By the time you graduate, it will be more likely 80% retail, 10% hospital, and 0.25% clinical.

I love pharmacy, I love both the hospital and retail aspects of it. I loved clinical for the brief period I had such a job (but reality, there is clinical involved with every pharmacist job whether retail or hospital.) But be realistic, as others have said, do NOT go into pharmacy, unless you would be satisfied working full-time in retail, because most likely that is the job you will have. And as special and unique as you now seem, compared to your undergraduate peers.....you will find there is little difference between you and your pharmacy class peers and pretty much no chance of "standing out", as you and your peers will all be doing the same thing.
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I would love to know the reason why you think hospital jobs will shrink yet retail will continue to grow. I agree there will always be more retail jobs but I highly doubt hospital pharmacists will diminish. I would argue with the glut of retail pharmacists and the state of the profession at the moment retail won't grow that much.
 
AlwaysContrary said:
I would love to know the reason why you think hospital jobs will shrink yet retail will continue to grow. I agree there will always be more retail jobs but I highly doubt hospital pharmacists will diminish. I would argue with the glut of retail pharmacists and the state of the profession at the moment retail won't grow that much.
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Hospitals are broke. A doctor generates revenue, a pharmacist does not. You have to make cuts somewhere.
 
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DrVader said:
Hospitals are broke. A doctor generates revenue, a pharmacist does not. You have to make cuts somewhere.
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There may be room for us with Provider status & if new legislation were to push outcomes. The latter doesn't seem likely under this administration but if we see that occurring then the Pharmacy role in the hospital may increase. I know in places overseas our expertise are getting attention and they are being included in hospitals where they previously were underutilized or unknown altogether.

If anything I'd like to see most of the typical retail work be done by robots to free us up for doing things directly related to patient interactions and interventions.
 
W19 said:
We are telling people to go to PA/NP; I guess the grass is always greener looking next door.
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I usually say the same mostly bc most pharmacy applicants these days do NOT have the stats for MD/DO school. Traditionally (in the last 5 yrs or so), NP/PA admission stats were similar to PHarmD. Perhaps not anymore, my school has received a lot more applicants to PA program. Nonetheless, if you look at BLS stats it is established that PA.NP profession are more in demand and more jobs are projected.
 
DrVader said:
Hospitals are broke. A doctor generates revenue, a pharmacist does not. You have to make cuts somewhere.
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Retail pharmacies are broke too and the economy is in the toilet, cuts are being made everywhere unfortunately. Thats why we all gotta pitch and give 120% everyday to help our companies survive, because without the company we wouldn't be employed either. If you don't want to stay late or come in early, it just means you aren't passionate about your job or your patients. I've posted this way to many times recently, but still it astounds me how many of my friends dislike their hospital jobs. Apparently the "cush cush" jobs aren't so cush after all. My retail friends seem pretty happy, but then again they make bank and didn't have to go through 2 years of residency or move to the middle of nowhere.
 
Standutd said:
There may be room for us with Provider status & if new legislation were to push outcomes. The latter doesn't seem likely under this administration but if we see that occurring then the Pharmacy role in the hospital may increase. I know in places overseas our expertise are getting attention and they are being included in hospitals where they previously were underutilized or unknown altogether.

If anything I'd like to see most of the typical retail work be done by robots to free us up for doing things directly related to patient interactions and interventions.
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nice push for robots. so what if people have mouths to feed. you must be a rookie in the game of life.
 
imcallingcorp said:
nice push for robots. so what if people have mouths to feed. you must be a rookie in the game of life.
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Fair point. I'm not pushing for robots to steal livelihood from people but instead to elevate the work that we do.
 
Pharmingforlove21 said:
I truly don't understand the appeal of why pharmacists love to do the clinical work, especially in a hospital. like why? it's a clinical challenge? then you should have gone to med school. because it feels good? well guess what? the patient doesn't really care, the doctor either hates or loves you depending on who's rounding at the time, the only people who care are the administration who are pushing you to document so they can justify actually paying your PHARMACIST salary. don't you get it? seriously, i think if you could get out and go to med school, you seriously should. nobody wants to tell the truth of clinical pharmacy, but as a 4th year on rotations right now, this is what i see every single day and it's nothing but the truth. the pharmacists who love to do the clinical side probably like to do it out of the goodness of their hearts, but the goodness of the heart ain't going to be paying my bills and getting me anywhere in life honey. so wake up, and get out.
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I'm sensing bitterness only because I share that sentiment. I recently completed my 4th year rotations too and I agree with a lot of the points you're making. At least in the areas I've been in, pharmacists in the hospital setting are making a decent salary, definitely enough to pay reasonable bills. The salary is not close to what doctors would make and, depending on how long you've been working, probably not close to what a retail pharmacist would make. However, the way raises were calculated at the hospital I was at eventually closes that gap. So money out of the way, a big challenge is the lack of recognition & ego clash from the doctors. I think those two aspects will fade as more and more healthcare professionals are trained/schooled in an interprofessional environment. Lastly, patients do care, even though your role as a pharmacist may be behind the curtain that role is important in ensuring safe and effective medication use. You may not get the spotlight, unless you can get into a non basement pharmacy position, or the recognition you deserve but your work is important in the larger machine that is the hospital system.
 
jhawkins16 said:
I plan on going into clinical pharmacy anyway.
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It is very saturated. To get a clinical position, you have to go through residency, possibly PGY-1 & PGY-2, some even show up with *an MBA on top of that. Those are today's new-hires; at least in major cities. Their peers are pharmacists with a bachelor's degree and years of experience or pharmacists who graduated 10 years ago and were about the last ones to land a clinical spot.

The cow is about to dry up. Run while you can. Take the NP or PA route. There are direct entry NP programs. 3 years, done. Here's something to think about pharmacy. We keep getting distracted by the potential impact that a pharmacist can have on any health care team; regardless of setting, retail or hospital. Since you just scoffed at retail pharmacy, I will share with you that retail practice requires clinical knowledge. Sure, you will not have the luxury of sitting down with patients to do comprehensive medication review. You do have to be on top of your dose ranges and discern significant drug interactions from those that aren't; just to name a few examples.

We are an unfocused bunch because we do not seem to take care of the basics elements that every profession has. Nurse practitioners, for instance, are recognized as providers, have prescribing rights and in some states may practice independently. Nurses recognized early on how important they are to hospitals and that without them, hospitals do not run. Instead, nurses run hospitals. Should anyone have an issue with a nurse/NP, the entire world of nursing and unions fall on whoever is challenging their status on the food chain.

Pharmacists, on the other hand, we have been unable to do any of that. We are too busy taking stabs and undermining each other in all settings. I have seen it first hand in retail and hospitals through my clinical rotations. We are not providers. While we retail pharmacists save prescribers' licenses all the time, we are not able to bill for our intervention. It is expected and it is expected STAT!!! That is what nurses may shout at you if they feel you are taking too long. Try to complain and at best, you will get a representative from the nurses' union to discuss what happened.

Nurses responsibilities increase and their pay increases proportionally (*unless salaried - different story). Pharmacists are too afraid to demand their worth. If you say you'll walk away, have no doubt they will let you. Add to that our current state of saturation, and employers playing games with your base hours, salary, schedule, and benefits.

In the two states I am licensed in, we were JUST afforded mandatory uninterrupted lunch breaks. That is basic. Now we are distracted with getting prescribing rights. And every time something fancy that we want to do pops in our mind, we are quickly reminded that we are not even recognized as providers. So then we send an email asking for signatures. 1 or 2 signatures get added to the list and we sleep sound because "we have done our part". Besides what could be more important than having prescribing rights???

It is not too late to change your mind. Pharmacy is done. The ones who should retire won't and schools keep pumping new grads. This is the time to jump ships.
 
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I work in an area where there is still a bit of a shortage....but I am sensing not for long..old timers are getting the boot..newbies are moving into the sticks from the big cities....small operations are closing along with marginal big operations...The big payers are putting the screws to the finances....For me the job has always been a paycheck and FORTUNATELY I have done other things that held my interest considerably more than spending 8-9 or ten hours on high speed drudgery....Funny, but the school was very interesting..but had very little to do with the actual job...and it was cheap.....unlike the recent grad I talked to who's no kidding 250 k. in the gutter.......read and Re-read the Apoteker post above..
 
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jhawkins16 said:
Hey guys. I got accepted and I'll be attending University of Tennessee school of Pharmacy in the Fall. Since you guys are currently living the Pharmacy life, what would you tell your younger self before you started Pharmacy school?
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Try to get an internship in the path of pharmacy you think you want to do/where you want to work the most to get the experience. I worked as an intern in retail at an independent and loved it; graduated and went chain retail for the pay/benefits/job security and realized the day to day is way different. The workload, pressure, technology, patients, hours are all way different. Had I interned in a chain retail setting knowing thats what I ultimately wanted to do I probably would have been more likely to try to pursue a residency or some other path of pharmacy while in school. I ultimately got out of chain retail with its 13 hour days, no breaks, working every other weekend, busy drive-thru, flu shot goals, and complaining patients, and went to managed care, but it took me 3 years longer than it should have of not being happy to get the experience and build up my CV enough to get out of the retail job I thought I always wanted as a student.
 
Lol half the posts on this thread sound like those crazy guys in movies with the sign that says "the end is nigh" while frantically screaming at everyone.
 
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Saiyo said:
Retail pharmacies are broke too and the economy is in the toilet, cuts are being made everywhere unfortunately. Thats why we all gotta pitch and give 120% everyday to help our companies survive, because without the company we wouldn't be employed either. If you don't want to stay late or come in early, it just means you aren't passionate about your job or your patients. I've posted this way to many times recently, but still it astounds me how many of my friends dislike their hospital jobs. Apparently the "cush cush" jobs aren't so cush after all. My retail friends seem pretty happy, but then again they make bank and didn't have to go through 2 years of residency or move to the middle of nowhere.
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You think that CVS and Wags are struggling? They are making so much money.
 
Apotheker2015 said:
It is very saturated. To get a clinical position, you have to go through residency, possibly PGY-1 & PGY-2, some even show up with *an MBA on top of that.
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Don't forget that a lot of hospitals have "clinical pharmacist" as the basic level where you will be primarily focused on distribution with some clinical duties here and there. PGY1 or equivalent experience mandatory.. how long until we require a PGY2 for that privilege?
 
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AlwaysContrary said:
I would love to know the reason why you think hospital jobs will shrink yet retail will continue to grow. I agree there will always be more retail jobs but I highly doubt hospital pharmacists will diminish. I would argue with the glut of retail pharmacists and the state of the profession at the moment retail won't grow that much.
Click to expand...

Hospitals are cutting back on, or eliminating in small hospitals, clinical positions....they can hire a NP/PA to do a lot of the stuff clinical pharmacists did, at a far cheaper salary. (whether the NP/PA does as good as the clinical pharmacist is irrelevant, to hospital management, they can do "good enough.") Any clinical stuff that the NP/PA can't/doesn't handled, is done by staff pharmacists. Staff pharmacists are also being cut a bit , as more and more technology means less need for their services.

Standutd said:
There may be room for us with Provider status & if new legislation were to push outcomes.
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"Provider status" is even more of a pipe dream now, then it was when it first started being talked about in the 70's (albeit under a different name.) At this point, it doesn't matter. Even if pharmacists got provider status, NP/PA's are still cheaper and will still do a "good enough" job under hospital management's view, that pharmacists aren't going to be hired for clinical positions. The only exception is large teaching hospitals....but these are few and far between, and there are far, far, far more qualified people applying for these positions, then there are actual positions.
 
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CetiAlphaFive said:
Lol.

Did you miss the cries of terror in the face of the Amazonpocalypse?
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Both CVS and Wags are poor competitors, they have always relied on a high cost of entry to prevent other competitors from entering the retail market and crushing them like cockroaches. For now, both companies are very profitable but when Amazon enters the market they are screwed. But for now, they are making money.
 
DrVader said:
Both CVS and Wags are poor competitors, they have always relied on a high cost of entry to prevent other competitors from entering the retail market and crushing them like cockroaches. For now, both companies are very profitable but when Amazon enters the market they are screwed. But for now, they are making money.
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I hope this competition pushes the retail world in the right direction. I could see Amazon ruling all lol.

@BidingMyTime Good point on provider status I guess we will see what "good enough" looks like
 
BidingMyTime said:
Hospitals are cutting back on, or eliminating in small hospitals, clinical positions....they can hire a NP/PA to do a lot of the stuff clinical pharmacists did, at a far cheaper salary. (whether the NP/PA does as good as the clinical pharmacist is irrelevant, to hospital management, they can do "good enough.") Any clinical stuff that the NP/PA can't/doesn't handled, is done by staff pharmacists. Staff pharmacists are also being cut a bit , as more and more technology means less need for their services.



"Provider status" is even more of a pipe dream now, then it was when it first started being talked about in the 70's (albeit under a different name.) At this point, it doesn't matter. Even if pharmacists got provider status, NP/PA's are still cheaper and will still do a "good enough" job under hospital management's view, that pharmacists aren't going to be hired for clinical positions. The only exception is large teaching hospitals....but these are few and far between, and there are far, far, far more qualified people applying for these positions, then there are actual positions.
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Basically everything you said in your post is a paraphrasing of what local pharmacists (including a hospital DOP) told me back when I was debating on whether I should stay in pharmacy school or leave to do something else. What is ironic is that at the time, most people on here (including yourself, I think) told me to stay in pharmacy on the basis of the whole "bird in the hand" principle. However, based on your post above, it sounds like you feel the same way as the pharmacists I know locally in terms of foreseeing a reduction in the number of pharmacist jobs in the future. So with that being the case, how could I (or anyone) have possibly been better off staying in pharmacy? Fewer jobs in the future means someone (or lots of someones) will have to be unemployed, so I never really understood the logic behind telling someone that they would have been better off staying in pharmacy school just for the sake of being in a professional program.
 
gwarm01 said:
Don't forget that a lot of hospitals have "clinical pharmacist" as the basic level where you will be primarily focused on distribution with some clinical duties here and there. PGY1 or equivalent experience mandatory.. how long until we require a PGY2 for that privilege?
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That’s already happening in two major cities I know of.
 
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