PharmD to CRNA

[luke123]

I had a question for all of you. My wife and I are thinking about sending me back to school for a career change. We are concerned about the over-saturation of pharmacist. I am a clinical pharmacist and I have been working in a hospital since I graduated. Do you think that CRNA is saturated or will become saturated? I really only want to work in healthcare as it is my passion, but I also don't want to have to continue to go back to school and get into debt to change careers again.

From my understanding I can do a direct entry master program, and then go to school for CRNA. Is it looked down upon to do an online direct entry msn program/accelerated direct entry msn? I want to be able to continue to work while doing this as I have a family to support. My wife understands that the CRNA program I will most likely have to do in person, and she will have to support the family for the year.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated.

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[Marky05]

I had a question for all of you. My wife and I are thinking about sending me back to school for a career change. We are concerned about the over-saturation of pharmacist. I am a clinical pharmacist and I have been working in a hospital since I graduated. Do you think that CRNA is saturated or will become saturated? I really only want to work in healthcare as it is my passion, but I also don't want to have to continue to go back to school and get into debt to change careers again.

From my understanding I can do a direct entry master program, and then go to school for CRNA. Is it looked down upon to do an online direct entry msn program/accelerated direct entry msn? I want to be able to continue to work while doing this as I have a family to support. My wife understands that the CRNA program I will most likely have to do in person, and she will have to support the family for the year.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated.

I don't think going for Direct Entry MSN is a good pick for you. To apply for CRNA programs, you need 1-2 yrs RN experience in critical care unit no matter if you have BSN or MSN. Even if you do MSN, you still need to work in ICU for 1-2 yrs. That being said, I would suggest going to an Accelerated BSN program, taking from 12-16 months. Work in ICU for 1-2 yrs, then apply for CRNA. Since you are working as a pharmacist, it will be a long way to go to become an CRNA. Only one thing to keep in mind, DON'T enroll in Direct Entry MSN. It's not beneficial.

 

[luke123]

I don't think going for Direct Entry MSN is a good pick for you. To apply for CRNA programs, you need 1-2 yrs RN experience in critical care unit no matter if you have BSN or MSN. Even if you do MSN, you still need to work in ICU for 1-2 yrs. That being said, I would suggest going to an Accelerated BSN program, taking from 12-16 months. Work in ICU for 1-2 yrs, then apply for CRNA. Since you are working as a pharmacist, it will be a long way to go to become an CRNA. Only one thing to keep in mind, DON'T enroll in Direct Entry MSN. It's not beneficial.

So the msn doesn't make you more marketable? Or make you more likely to get into CRNA program? Is going accelerated bsn online possible? I was thinking that since I do 7 on 7 off I could study on my off week then go to work.
But what do you think of the job market?

 

[psychnurse]

I doubt CRNA is saturated. Unlike NPs, CRNA programs have much higher entry standards and churn out fewer graduates. Of course, if you want to work in the most desirable cities as everyone else does, the competition increases.

Regarding the CRNA path, there is really no such a thing as Direct-Entry CRNA programs. CRNA programs require at least 1-2 years of ICU experience. Another thing to consider is that, while not impossible, it is pretty uncommon for new RNs to go straight into an ICU. It typically takes 1-2 years of acute-care experience before going into ICU. All in all, you might end up working 3-4 years as a RN before you can even apply to a CRNA program.

The typical CRNA path that a majority of people take is: Obtain a BS in Nursing, work in an ICU (the higher the acuity the better) for at least 1-2 years, get certified (CCRN), and apply for CRNA programs (by ~2022, all CRNA programs will be Doctorate-level). Keeping a high GPA (3.6+) is important.

The Direct-Entry master programs you mentioned sound like those "masters in nurse leadership" programs that only allow you to practice as RNs. I strongly discourage those programs because you might end up repeating some of the same courses when you're in the CRNA programs. I think those programs are a huge waste of time and money. They do not make you more marketable.

Regardless, it's unlikely you have time to work during any accelerated nursing programs or CRNA. There's no online accelerated BSN or CRNA either (at least not 100%).

 

[luke123]

I doubt CRNA is saturated. Unlike NPs, CRNA programs have much higher entry standards and churn out fewer graduates. Of course, if you want to work in the most desirable cities as everyone else does, the competition increases.

Regarding the CRNA path, there is really no such a thing as Direct-Entry CRNA programs. CRNA programs require at least 1-2 years of ICU experience. Another thing to consider is that, while not impossible, it is pretty uncommon for new RNs to go straight into an ICU. It typically takes 1-2 years of acute-care experience before going into ICU. All in all, you might end up working 3-4 years as a RN before you can even apply to a CRNA program.

The typical CRNA path that a majority of people take is: Obtain a BS in Nursing, work in an ICU (the higher the acuity the better) for at least 1-2 years, get certified (CCRN), and apply for CRNA programs (by ~2022, all CRNA programs will be Doctorate-level). Keeping a high GPA (3.6+) is important.

The Direct-Entry master programs you mentioned sound like those "masters in nurse leadership" programs that only allow you to practice as RNs. I strongly discourage those programs because you might end up repeating some of the same courses when you're in the CRNA programs. I think those programs are a huge waste of time and money. They do not make you more marketable.

Regardless, it's unlikely you have time to work during any accelerated nursing programs or CRNA. There's no online accelerated BSN or CRNA either (at least not 100%).

Ya I guess I'm hoping to get ICU right out of school like my sister did. My GPA in pharmacy was 3.8 so I'm pretty sure I can keep my GPA above 3.6. I didn't know that CRNA program will be "doctorate lvl" by that time. I'm sure that means an even higher price tag, and take longer
I don't understand the push for every degree to have the doctor title. Didn't agree with it for pharmacy and don't think I agree with it here either.

 

[psychnurse]

Ya I guess I'm hoping to get ICU right out of school like my sister did. My GPA in pharmacy was 3.8 so I'm pretty sure I can keep my GPA above 3.6. I didn't know that CRNA program will be "doctorate lvl" by that time. I'm sure that means an even higher price tag, and take longer
I don't understand the push for every degree to have the doctor title. Didn't agree with it for pharmacy and don't think I agree with it here either.

Degree inflation...and it boosts schools' bottom line. I don't agree with it either and it's very unlikely I'll ever go back for one. The cost is high, but many of the CRNA students I took classes with kept their per-diem job...and ICU nurses in my area make very good money. Also, CRNAs continue to be the best paying field among advanced practice nurses.

 

[pamac]

Yeah, degree creep. I’m torn over whether it has the effect of preventing saturation of NPs within the field because I still see programs churning out graduates. When there is a critical mass of programs that only offer doctorates, you’ll still probably see just as many people pursuing the degrees, simply because there’s nowhere else to go. If doctorates would have been required when I was in school, I’d have done a doctorate, because I didn’t get into nursing to go work for a career of bedside, or management, or anything else in nursing.

 

[jwk]

Ya I guess I'm hoping to get ICU right out of school like my sister did. My GPA in pharmacy was 3.8 so I'm pretty sure I can keep my GPA above 3.6. I didn't know that CRNA program will be "doctorate lvl" by that time. I'm sure that means an even higher price tag, and take longer
I don't understand the push for every degree to have the doctor title. Didn't agree with it for pharmacy and don't think I agree with it here either.

Hey Luke

Not sure what area of the country you're in but you should also consider the AA route. You likely have most of the prerequisites already. Masters degree, applicants need strong pre-med background and coursework, programs are 24-27 months long, and it would likely save you at least 3 years compared to the CRNA route. Please feel free to PM me if you'd like more info.

 

[DoingAllTheThings]

ICU nurse here, pre-CRNA. To be a CRNA you need to be an ICU nurse first, and an excellent one. Nurses have their own ways.

You will be working odd shifts running in and out of isolation rooms (including covid) for every beeping device and directly catering to all of the often messy and unsightly physical and emotional needs of another human being, for less then you are earning now. There are typically no CNAs in the ICU so all that care is on you. So, really ask yourself if you’re truly ready for that life.

That’s IF you get into an ICU right out of nursing school. I’d highly recommend working as an EMT during nursing school as they are often priority pick for new grad ICU positions.

If you have the personality to do all of this humble leg work for your goal, then tons of respect ✊ & I wish you the best on your journey.

 

[pamac]

ICU nurse here, pre-CRNA. To be a CRNA you need to be an ICU nurse first, and an excellent one. Nurses have their own ways.

You will be working odd shifts running in and out of isolation rooms (including covid) for every beeping device and directly catering to all of the often messy and unsightly physical and emotional needs of another human being, for less then you are earning now. There are typically no CNAs in the ICU so all that care is on you. So, really ask yourself if you’re truly ready for that life.

That’s IF you get into an ICU right out of nursing school. I’d highly recommend working as an EMT during nursing school as they are often priority pick for new grad ICU positions.

If you have the personality to do all of this humble leg work for your goal, then tons of respect ✊ & I wish you the best on your journey.

CRNA seats in programs are really hard to land. Candidates are up against folks that are almost always critical care nurses, and have excellent references from folks who know them well and can attest to the quality of their work. I know quite a few CRNAs and CRNA students, and they frequently fit into a mold of being folks who are calm, professional, measured nurses who never complain about tough assignments, and who develop a lot of extra skills that your average nurse tends to want to avoid... like ultrasound guided iv placement... things like that which take chunks of time out of your day but make you a better nurse. That element of humility that was mentioned is kind of the hallmark of the folks I see moving to CRNA school. Those folks seem to be the nurses who never get frustrated when another nurse hands them a train wreck of a patient with train wreck quality nursing care, and they are like “cool, I’ll fix all this, thank you.” That’s a far cry from me, who was always like “I’ll be back when I fix this to talk about why you handed me this mess you created, and work you didn’t do.” Whenever I see aN ICU nurse that isn’t a hothead that will chew someone out, it’s a good chance they are CRNA candidates.

Most of the RNs I’ve known recently that have gone back on to CRNA school have about 3 or 4 years of that kind of icu experience. That might not seem like a lot, but it’s usually that kind of high quality immersive experience that gets the attention of CRNA schools. I’ve personally never seen someone from any other background get into school, but that could be just my experience, or it could be that the folks who want to go CRNA migrate towards the pathways that are more guaranteed to yield results so they aren’t wasting their time.

The good news is you can make a pretty good living as a nurse while you develop the skills and reputation that get you where you want to go. I wouldn’t invest in the mindset that this journey from PharmD to CRNA would be a rebranding. It’s a whole new life journey, and by the time you land as a CRNA, your PharmD will be watered down to the point where all your time invested there would be essentially for naught. I’d consider simply finding a way to magnify your efforts with ing the pharmacy realm rather than over correct to a field as demanding on your time and energy as CRNA. Time is a valuable commodity, and besides the intangibles of what you’d lose with your family, there is also the financial aspect of new debt and expenses, even if you find a way to work as much as you can (which will probably be less than you think). I’ve spent years juggling work, school, and family. Working around school was essentially the central focus, and when that was freed up, life was so much better that I couldn’t imagine going back to do all that again.

 

[scoopdaboop]

I had a question for all of you. My wife and I are thinking about sending me back to school for a career change. We are concerned about the over-saturation of pharmacist. I am a clinical pharmacist and I have been working in a hospital since I graduated. Do you think that CRNA is saturated or will become saturated? I really only want to work in healthcare as it is my passion, but I also don't want to have to continue to go back to school and get into debt to change careers again.

From my understanding I can do a direct entry master program, and then go to school for CRNA. Is it looked down upon to do an online direct entry msn program/accelerated direct entry msn? I want to be able to continue to work while doing this as I have a family to support. My wife understands that the CRNA program I will most likely have to do in person, and she will have to support the family for the year.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated.

Saturated? I don't think so, not in the next 10-15 years. Anesthesiology (MD side) is still one of the most recruited physicians. There are bunch of rural places in america where they don't want to work, and CRNAs fill the void, and get paid well; but of course, in rural areas, ,they will have to take call etc to get paid 90+ percentile MGMA.

 

[pamac]

Everyone harkens back to the days when graduates of (fill in the blank) fields were scooped up before they even graduated, and could name their price wherever they landed. I’ve never known those days. What working in healthcare has offered me When compared to many other lucrative fields, is superior mobility at a great wage. If you are a doctor, you’ll be fine just about anywhere. If you are a CRNA, you’ll be fine just about anywhere. At the end of the day, you’ll never be working for less than $120k as a CRNA. If you are, you can easily pick up and move to anywhere else in the country and find a job because healthcare is everywhere. Tech and industry aren’t everywhere, and if you do move, you are moving into a different realm. For instance, healthcare jobs are pretty much standardized. When I was an RN, I could have quit a job in Nevada, and gone to Tennessee, and be doing the same job with the same equipment, in the same kind of environment with the same expectations. If my engineer friend leaves his engineering job at a trailer manufacturer, and goes to another place, it’s probably not going to be another trailer manufacturer where he will be doing something just like what he left from. The tradeoffs are much more stark for other career fields. CRNA wages and demand for them fall into a generalized range that is pretty safe to make expectations about. And when you compare CRNA to just about anything else, it comes out on top. Right now, the fields and specialties I’m seeing that are having the toughest time are pharmacy, FNPs, and PAs. Apart from those folks, I’m seeing plenty of demand for all types of physicians, nurses, Rad techs, Respiratory therapists, etc.

 

[psychnurse]

I'm in a highly competitive job market, and the demand for CRNAs is incredibly high. Most of the CRNA job postings have an enticing tone offering "generous sign-on bonuses" and other perks, and it seems like $180k is on the low end of the salary spectrum. Makes sense...my state only has 2 CRNA programs (as opposed to 10+ FNP programs and who knows how many online mills). My school is one of those that offer CRNA and there're only 14-16 in every cohort. Frankly, it's a great choice if you have an interest in anesthesia. Almost all other NP specialties are going south due to the explosion of online degree grads. The only other specialty that has somewhat of a cap is Neonatal NP.

 

[chocomorsel]

CRNA seats in programs are really hard to land. Candidates are up against folks that are almost always critical care nurses, and have excellent references from folks who know them well and can attest to the quality of their work. I know quite a few CRNAs and CRNA students, and they frequently fit into a mold of being folks who are calm, professional, measured nurses who never complain about tough assignments, and who develop a lot of extra skills that your average nurse tends to want to avoid... like ultrasound guided iv placement... things like that which take chunks of time out of your day but make you a better nurse. That element of humility that was mentioned is kind of the hallmark of the folks I see moving to CRNA school. Those folks seem to be the nurses who never get frustrated when another nurse hands them a train wreck of a patient with train wreck quality nursing care, and they are like “cool, I’ll fix all this, thank you.” That’s a far cry from me, who was always like “I’ll be back when I fix this to talk about why you handed me this mess you created, and work you didn’t do.” Whenever I see aN ICU nurse that isn’t a hothead that will chew someone out, it’s a good chance they are CRNA candidates.

Most of the RNs I’ve known recently that have gone back on to CRNA school have about 3 or 4 years of that kind of icu experience. That might not seem like a lot, but it’s usually that kind of high quality immersive experience that gets the attention of CRNA schools. I’ve personally never seen someone from any other background get into school, but that could be just my experience, or it could be that the folks who want to go CRNA migrate towards the pathways that are more guaranteed to yield results so they aren’t wasting their time.

The good news is you can make a pretty good living as a nurse while you develop the skills and reputation that get you where you want to go. I wouldn’t invest in the mindset that this journey from PharmD to CRNA would be a rebranding. It’s a whole new life journey, and by the time you land as a CRNA, your PharmD will be watered down to the point where all your time invested there would be essentially for naught. I’d consider simply finding a way to magnify your efforts with ing the pharmacy realm rather than over correct to a field as demanding on your time and energy as CRNA. Time is a valuable commodity, and besides the intangibles of what you’d lose with your family, there is also the financial aspect of new debt and expenses, even if you find a way to work as much as you can (which will probably be less than you think). I’ve spent years juggling work, school, and family. Working around school was essentially the central focus, and when that was freed up, life was so much better that I couldn’t imagine going back to do all that again.

You certainly have bought into all the AANA propaganda.
I don’t suppose you have any inkling of how difficult pharmacology classes are?
This is a rebranding. His or her time will not “essentially be for naught.” but would immensely help him in CRNA school as he/she aces classes that are much less in depth than what’s learned in Pharmacy school.
Of course why an employed PharmD is wanting to go to CRNA school beats me.

 

[chocomorsel]

I had a question for all of you. My wife and I are thinking about sending me back to school for a career change. We are concerned about the over-saturation of pharmacist. I am a clinical pharmacist and I have been working in a hospital since I graduated. Do you think that CRNA is saturated or will become saturated? I really only want to work in healthcare as it is my passion, but I also don't want to have to continue to go back to school and get into debt to change careers again.

From my understanding I can do a direct entry master program, and then go to school for CRNA. Is it looked down upon to do an online direct entry msn program/accelerated direct entry msn? I want to be able to continue to work while doing this as I have a family to support. My wife understands that the CRNA program I will most likely have to do in person, and she will have to support the family for the year.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated.

Why are you going to go into even more debt, delayed gratification, when you already have a job.
Are you jobless right now? Are you making good money?
What you think is going to happen, May never happen. The economy is in shambles right now, but people still need their medicine.
If I were you, I would stay put and save, save, save by living below your means. If wifey ain’t working she needs to work and help you save save, save, save. If she’s not interested in working you may have to rethink this whole marriage if she’s pushing you to go back to school when you already have a good high paying job and lots of education already.

Don’t sink another 8 years and six figures into yet another avenue.

Think about the money you would have lost by quiting your six figure job and starting over. It would likely be at least $500k.

Put that into the equation and don’t make this very costly mistake.
If in the future you end up jobless and broke, then AT THAT time revisit this thought. That is likely not going to happen. No one knows the future.

 

[pamac]

Why are you going to go into even more debt, delayed gratification, when you already have a job.
Are you jobless right now? Are you making good money?
What you think is going to happen, May never happen. The economy is in shambles right now, but people still need their medicine.
If I were you, I would stay put and save, save, save by living below your means. If wifey ain’t working she needs to work and help you save save, save, save. If she’s not interested in working you may have to rethink this whole marriage if she’s pushing you to go back to school when you already have a good high paying job and lots of education already.

Don’t sink another 8 years and six figures into yet another avenue.

Think about the money you would have lost by quiting your six figure job and starting over. It would likely be at least $500k.

Put that into the equation and don’t make this very costly mistake.
If in the future you end up jobless and broke, then AT THAT time revisit this thought. That is likely not going to happen. No one knows the future.

Let me get this straight... you previously criticized my comment where I suggested that it wouldn’t be a walk in the park for the OP to just jump into CRNA school. Then you post that comment I quoted above telling him the walk in the park that you suggested CRNA school would be is actually not just a rebrand, but a full blown onerous journey (like I said it would be). All this so you could get a dig in about how you think CRNA school is so much easier than pharmacy. AND you suggest that he also consider divorcing his wife rather than go to CRNA school (that you said would be so easy). You dove right into the shallow end on that one, because nowhere is it indicated that his wife is even pushing this, nor whether or not she already is working. From what was written, she is just part of the conversation between the two of them. My head would be spinning if I actually gave a shat. You are the new troll this week, I guess. But it’s been slow around here for weeks, and now things are jazzed up again. Nice to meet you....will you be trying to crap here for very long?

Look OP.... pharmacy is your best bet compared to going back to school, working as a nurse in an environment where you stand out, and then getting through CRNA school, and then being the new guy. I have no doubt that you had good study skills, and would do fine in school. Pharmacy school is rigorous, and your GPA is excellent. But like chokemorsal said, you’d be out lots of money. Think of the lost income, and then the cost of school and relocation. Then any existing debt you have now. And then you’d most likely be having to wipe some butts as an ICU nurse to maximize your appeal to CRNA programs. Your life would be in disarray through the whole thing. RN school isn’t academically hard, but faculty are ca-Ray-zeee. They make things suck. I’ve never known it any other way. You’d be the new guy on the block the whole time through your journey. What’s the payoff at the end? You could get through all that and be working as a brand new CRNA in roughly 5 years at the soonest maybe? I’d say that with all the paperwork and deadlines being what they are, you’d be realistically looking at like 6 years. You really do have to factor in work experience because CRNA programs at least want you to have spent time managing complicated patients and seeing what that is like. If you have more experience, you’ll have more options for where you can get in.

 

[pamac]

During COVID, when surgeries were stopped, CRNAs took a hit. A lot were laid off. When things ramped back up and they went back to work, many found that the rules abruptly changed. Wages and terms were altered significantly. This varies from location to location, but it showed me that anyone can be vulnerable. I remember the days when Walmart was giving away BMWs as sign on bonuses for new pharmacists, along with paying $115,000-$120,000 to start, which in today’s dollars is like $144,000-$150,000. PAs and NPs are kind of heading in that kind of direction. Used to be that on the PA forums the rule of thumb was “pick 2 of the 3: location, specialty, salary, and you’ll get them”. That was kind of how it was for NPs too. Now I’m hearing those same folks say “take whatever you can get to get your start”. My realm of Psyche is in the new salary survey in “Clinical Advisor” as having an average wage of $138,000, which is the highest among any of the others by a long shot. That average is pretty close to reality too. But now all the folks averaging $107,000 in primary care are going back to school and coming out with certificates for psyche so they can make a lot more money, and see half the people or less in a day than they do in primary care. A lot of them have already been the front lines for managing psyche conditions already, so they have a sense of the landscape.

CRNA is a field that has some speed bumps that prevent saturation..... not a ton of programs, and the ones they have are low class size. Most of them now have a doctorate tacked on to them, adding at last an extra year. High selectivity. But I once felt the same way about pharmacy. But motivated people often pursue solid and secure employment options, and set their sights early on. And people stay in lucrative fields, especially after they’ve become familiar with the job to a high degree. The same problems could catch up with CRNAs just as a person like the OP graduates and starts looking for a job.

 

[alex2021]

Did you get to change your career to CRNA? Why?
Why not going to medical school, instead?
I believe CRNAs make much more than pharmacists?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

 

[d2305]

I would do Anesthesia Assistant which is about the same thing minus nursing. It's not everywhere though.