PharmD vs. PharmD/PhD

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samuraix

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I'm thinking about applying to pharmacy school this summer, but I have been encouraged by counselors and professors to do a PhD program. I have a 3.95 GPA right now and I am second year with the intent of graduating in three year and going to a 3 year PharmD program at UOP. I am hoping to hear your opinions on the advantages of doing a PharmD/PhD program over just a PharmD program. In addition, I would like your info or rumors about these programs at UOP and regarding careers prospects and life on the job in general. Thanks.

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I'm thinking about applying to pharmacy school this summer, but I have been encouraged by counselors and professors to do a PhD program. I have a 3.95 GPA right now and I am second year with the intent of graduating in three year and going to a 3 year PharmD program at UOP. I am hoping to hear your opinions on the advantages of doing a PharmD/PhD program over just a PharmD program. In addition, I would like your info or rumors about these programs at UOP and regarding careers prospects and life on the job in general. Thanks.

After reading your post I immediately have several questions that are not asked to pick on you but with genuine curiosity.

Why do you want to pursue a Ph. D program ?

As I just said to someone today in a nearly identical thread people that pursue Ph. D do so because they are interested in pharmaceutical research. Since you said you you are a 2nd year student I assume you are not very far in your studies and have not taken majority of upper division classes or labs that usually lead people to become interested in research.

Do you have any research experience ?

I don't mean the tube cleaning kind where you work in the lab and perform basic duties for your PI. I mean have you actually worked on a project or finished a project that lead you to become interested in pursuing a Ph. D ?

Have you worked in Biotech ?

Again I am not giving you a hard time but you need to tell us more about your background.
 
Off topic:

When I found out that the phd portion of the dual degree adds about 3 years on top of your 3/4 year curriculum. I said..no thanks.

on topic:
 
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They push this really hard at our school too, but in reality you can only do one job when you graduate. If your true goal is research only, don't waste your time doing a Pharm.D., just go straight to a Ph.D. The only way I would say to do both is if you are very interested in performing clinical trials down the road, but thats about the only benefit I would see to having both degrees
 
That being said, clinical trials is one of the hottest, most interesting research areas, and high-paying as well that they are.

I am experiencing this on the statistics side (with statistics PhD).

I would highly recommend both degrees.

You will be at a disadvantage:

without PharmD: you cannot become an "official" pharmacist or practice pharmacy with a license


without a PhD: you will either be forced into retail or have to do a large-scale residency/fellowship anyway which will take as much time as the 3 added on years


So I say definitely do PharmD/PhD

The PhD part is paid for you. You do not take out extra loans for those three years.

Apply to PharmD/PhD programs. Go for it!! You will be much happier as you can practice pharmacy and research in any setting.

Highly recommended. In fact, I once thought about doing this route several times.

Hint: I have one internship at NIH and another summer internship at a major pharm company. Although in biostatistics, I have the general feeling about pharmacy also.
 
i agree with both cheburashka and CD Piano on this one. You should definitely figure out, through experience, which field of pharmacy you want to apply your PharmD. If you aren't interested in Clinical or Retail pharmacy then i suggest you look into a dual degree, much like i have!

you can definitely work in research with just a PharmD, one of my coworkers has a pharmD from U of Arizona and is doing just fine! But i think if you want to be an elite scientist and be more handsomely rewarded for your efforts having a PhD would definitely help you out there!
 
i agree with both cheburashka and CD Piano on this one. You should definitely figure out, through experience, which field of pharmacy you want to apply your PharmD. If you aren't interested in Clinical or Retail pharmacy then i suggest you look into a dual degree, much like i have!

you can definitely work in research with just a PharmD, one of my coworkers has a pharmD from U of Arizona and is doing just fine! But i think if you want to be an elite scientist and be more handsomely rewarded for your efforts having a PhD would definitely help you out there!


What kind of opportunities are there for the PharmD/MBA combo? I'm thinking about pursuing one myself.
 
What kind of opportunities are there for the PharmD/MBA combo? I'm thinking about pursuing one myself.

http://www.pharmacist.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Dual_Degrees_in_Pharmacy_Jul_Aug_2003_

This is a good article from the APhA website discussing dual degrees in pharmacy. As for PharmD/MBA, the only drawback I have about this is that you would be separated from your class for a year while you double up to finish your MBA coursework for a year. At University of Arizona, the MBA program begins in your third professional year - during the third year, you would only take MBA classes and then afterward, you would go back to your pharmacy classes.
 
After reading your post I immediately have several questions that are not asked to pick on you but with genuine curiosity.

Why do you want to pursue a Ph. D program ?

As I just said to someone today in a nearly identical thread people that pursue Ph. D do so because they are interested in pharmaceutical research. Since you said you you are a 2nd year student I assume you are not very far in your studies and have not taken majority of upper division classes or labs that usually lead people to become interested in research.

Do you have any research experience ?

I don't mean the tube cleaning kind where you work in the lab and perform basic duties for your PI. I mean have you actually worked on a project or finished a project that lead you to become interested in pursuing a Ph. D ?

Have you worked in Biotech ?

Again I am not giving you a hard time but you need to tell us more about your background.

Thank you for your inputs. To address cheburashka's questions, I do not have any experience in research as I am still trying to get a position under a pharmaceutical sciences professor. I primarily thought about a dual degree because I want to do pharmacy, but I do not want to be stuck in retail when I graduate. I hope to synthesize drugs, not merely to work with them, thus I think a PhD/PharmD dual degree would help me along that path. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can synthesize drugs for companies or work in a team with doctors if I have a PharmD/ PhD dual degree rite? Or is a PharmD enough? Overall, what pharmaceutical programs would allow me to work in drug synthesis?

And is there a required residency/fellowship following the PharmD degree or can I just go straight into working? How hard is it to find a job in pharmacy after graduation?
 
Thank you for your inputs. To address cheburashka's questions, I do not have any experience in research as I am still trying to get a position under a pharmaceutical sciences professor. I primarily thought about a dual degree because I want to do pharmacy, but I do not want to be stuck in retail when I graduate. I hope to synthesize drugs, not merely to work with them, thus I think a PhD/PharmD dual degree would help me along that path. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can synthesize drugs for companies or work in a team with doctors if I have a PharmD/ PhD dual degree rite? Or is a PharmD enough? Overall, what pharmaceutical programs would allow me to work in drug synthesis?

And is there a required residency/fellowship following the PharmD degree or can I just go straight into working? How hard is it to find a job in pharmacy after graduation?

Strictly speaking I don't think that you need a PhD in order to go into drug development. However, according to the link provided by justyliz, of the pharmacists that were pharmaceutical scientists that answered the survey, 100% of them had an advanced degree. So it would seem that if that's the path you want to follow, then a PhD would probably be a very good idea, if for nothing else than to make you a more viable candidate for the position you want.
 
To samuraix:
Is your username a reference to the anime show? I used to watch it back in the day. Also, if I were to obtain a PhD in addition to my PharmD, it would not be in anything pharmacy related; it would be in Microbiology, Neuroscience, or Molecular Medicine. However, the only degree combination I would like is PharmD/MPH.
 
If you're remotely interested in basic research (I mean discovering stuff and not running clinical trials etc) I would say do the PharmD/PhD. I cannot stress this next point too strongly...DO NOT DO JUST A PHD!!! I have a PhD in Molecular Biology and have been doing research for about 8 years since obtaining it. I am now planning to apply to a PharmD program to get out of research, and this is with just having got 5 years of research funding from the NIH.

The biggest problem with doing just a PhD is job security. The NIH budget has been frozen for several years, resulting in a net decrease in funding due to inflation/wage increase. Lots of well-established researchers are now running out of funding. Private industry is itself not without similar problems - I worked for Rhone Poulenc Rorer for a year in the UK, and they closed that entire site down a few years ago.

I work with a lot of MDs who do research, and they don't seem to "get" how hard it is to be a PhD when funding gets tight. MDs have clinical work (and clinical research) to fall back on. Similarly, if you get a PharmD/PhD, you have the PharmD as security if things don't work out.

When you get old like me and have a house and family, you really don't want to be worrying about whether you're going to continue to have a job every 5 years. It is somewhat difficult to switch out of research the more entrenched you become e.g. getting a job even to teach science is tough if all you've done is research.

A lot of basic research is down to luck, and getting grants funded and papers published requires more subjectivity than it should.

Having said all this, I'm not saying don't do research at all..I'm just saying it's really important to keep your options open!

But i think if you want to be an elite scientist and be more handsomely rewarded for your efforts having a PhD would definitely help you out there!

To correct this...you do not really get handsomely rewarded for your efforts with a PhD (compared to what you get as a Pharmacist). If you do research, after your PhD you generally need to do a postdoc (get paid around 40K). Postdocs last maybe 4-5 years nowadays. Assistant professors (with PhDs) get paid around 70K. I know an associate professor with over 20 years experience who gets paid about $105K. And bear in mind, this is working 60+ hours per week (you are salaried). This is in academia...you will earn more in a company, but it is very hard to find jobs in companies, especially with the economy messed up as it is.
 
If you're remotely interested in basic research (I mean discovering stuff and not running clinical trials etc) I would say do the PharmD/PhD. I cannot stress this next point too strongly...DO NOT DO JUST A PHD!!! I have a PhD in Molecular Biology and have been doing research for about 8 years since obtaining it. I am now planning to apply to a PharmD program to get out of research, and this is with just having got 5 years of research funding from the NIH.

The biggest problem with doing just a PhD is job security. The NIH budget has been frozen for several years, resulting in a net decrease in funding due to inflation/wage increase. Lots of well-established researchers are now running out of funding. Private industry is itself not without similar problems - I worked for Rhone Poulenc Rorer for a year in the UK, and they closed that entire site down a few years ago.

I work with a lot of MDs who do research, and they don't seem to "get" how hard it is to be a PhD when funding gets tight. MDs have clinical work (and clinical research) to fall back on. Similarly, if you get a PharmD/PhD, you have the PharmD as security if things don't work out.

When you get old like me and have a house and family, you really don't want to be worrying about whether you're going to continue to have a job every 5 years. It is somewhat difficult to switch out of research the more entrenched you become e.g. getting a job even to teach science is tough if all you've done is research.

A lot of basic research is down to luck, and getting grants funded and papers published requires more subjectivity than it should.

Having said all this, I'm not saying don't do research at all..I'm just saying it's really important to keep your options open!



To correct this...you do not really get handsomely rewarded for your efforts with a PhD (compared to what you get as a Pharmacist). If you do research, after your PhD you generally need to do a postdoc (get paid around 40K). Postdocs last maybe 4-5 years nowadays. Assistant professors (with PhDs) get paid around 70K. I know an associate professor with over 20 years experience who gets paid about $105K. And bear in mind, this is working 60+ hours per week (you are salaried). This is in academia...you will earn more in a company, but it is very hard to find jobs in companies, especially with the economy messed up as it is.


I wanted to thank you for taking a time and writing such a great and informative post.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I am personally myself am not sure yet if I'll go into science. Doing undegrad research - was intense enough for me. :scared:

But my boyfriend who is working on his MS in biochem - is definately set on going for Ph. D - I will have him read your post as you seem to have a lot experience under your belt.
 
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Also, if I were to obtain a PhD in addition to my PharmD, it would not be in anything pharmacy related; it would be in Microbiology, Neuroscience, or Molecular Medicine. However, the only degree combination I would like is PharmD/MPH.

There are lots of pharmacy related PhD programs: Medicinal Chemistry, Pharmaceutics, Pharmacology/Toxicology, Pharmacy Practice, Pharmacy Administration.
 
If you're remotely interested in basic research (I mean discovering stuff and not running clinical trials etc) I would say do the PharmD/PhD. I cannot stress this next point too strongly...DO NOT DO JUST A PHD!!! I have a PhD in Molecular Biology and have been doing research for about 8 years since obtaining it. I am now planning to apply to a PharmD program to get out of research, and this is with just having got 5 years of research funding from the NIH.

The biggest problem with doing just a PhD is job security. The NIH budget has been frozen for several years, resulting in a net decrease in funding due to inflation/wage increase. Lots of well-established researchers are now running out of funding. Private industry is itself not without similar problems - I worked for Rhone Poulenc Rorer for a year in the UK, and they closed that entire site down a few years ago.

I work with a lot of MDs who do research, and they don't seem to "get" how hard it is to be a PhD when funding gets tight. MDs have clinical work (and clinical research) to fall back on. Similarly, if you get a PharmD/PhD, you have the PharmD as security if things don't work out.

When you get old like me and have a house and family, you really don't want to be worrying about whether you're going to continue to have a job every 5 years. It is somewhat difficult to switch out of research the more entrenched you become e.g. getting a job even to teach science is tough if all you've done is research.

A lot of basic research is down to luck, and getting grants funded and papers published requires more subjectivity than it should.

Having said all this, I'm not saying don't do research at all..I'm just saying it's really important to keep your options open!



To correct this...you do not really get handsomely rewarded for your efforts with a PhD (compared to what you get as a Pharmacist). If you do research, after your PhD you generally need to do a postdoc (get paid around 40K). Postdocs last maybe 4-5 years nowadays. Assistant professors (with PhDs) get paid around 70K. I know an associate professor with over 20 years experience who gets paid about $105K. And bear in mind, this is working 60+ hours per week (you are salaried). This is in academia...you will earn more in a company, but it is very hard to find jobs in companies, especially with the economy messed up as it is.

I had my reservations about getting a PhD also. I applied to grad school as a backup, and if I get accepted to pharmacy school, I won't go. Now, I just have to get those acceptances!
 
Thanks JimblyUK for your informative post. It helps me understand PhD programs much better. I considered the dual PharmD/PhD program because I wanted better career options with a dual degree. Although I haven't tried research, I don't think I'm much of a research type because I don't have the patience for labs. I'm a social person, so I love to interact with people. I wanted to do a PhD along with PharmD because I wanted to fall back to teaching when I'm older and because I thought it would allow me to work with drug synthesis.
I definitely want to do a dual degree in PharmD, so which complementary degree would you guys recommend considering my interest in drug synthesis and teaching? MPH? MBA? MS?
And to medicalcpa: my sn is from Rurouni Kenshin because it was the first anime i watched and I liked it a lot although it had a sad ending.
 
Thanks JimblyUK for your informative post. It helps me understand PhD programs much better. I considered the dual PharmD/PhD program because I wanted better career options with a dual degree. Although I haven't tried research, I don't think I'm much of a research type because I don't have the patience for labs. I'm a social person, so I love to interact with people. I wanted to do a PhD along with PharmD because I wanted to fall back to teaching when I'm older and because I thought it would allow me to work with drug synthesis.
I definitely want to do a dual degree in PharmD, so which complementary degree would you guys recommend considering my interest in drug synthesis and teaching? MPH? MBA? MS?
And to medicalcpa: my sn is from Rurouni Kenshin because it was the first anime i watched and I liked it a lot although it had a sad ending.

You can teach with just a PharmD. I don't know if this would interest you, but you can get be a "clinical professor" in a hospital setting. You would be teaching pharmacy students on rotation. As a hospital pharmacist, you could also be involved in educating nurses, doctors, etc about drugs.
 
I primarily thought about a dual degree because I want to do pharmacy, but I do not want to be stuck in retail when I graduate. I hope to synthesize drugs, not merely to work with them, thus I think a PhD/PharmD dual degree would help me along that path. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can synthesize drugs for companies or work in a team with doctors if I have a PharmD/ PhD dual degree rite? Or is a PharmD enough? Overall, what pharmaceutical programs would allow me to work in drug synthesis?

If you're passionate about synthetic chemistry, all you need is a PhD. PharmD/PhD are geared towards those that are more interested in clinical research. If you want to work in the capacity of just a clinical pharmacist, then a having PhD does not exempt you from doing a residency. Residency is where you would strengthen your clinical skills, a PhD program does not provide that. If you want to teach, you don't need both degrees, one or the other is fine.

Bottom line:
PhD lends you credit as a scientist.
PharmD lends you credit as a clinician.
A combined degree would best serve in the capacity as a clinical scientist (i.e. clinical research). Otherwise, you'll start to get rusty in one of those skill sets.

The only exception to that is if you work as a scientist by day and moonlight as a pharmacist by night, which is also an option I have seen people take.
 
If you're remotely interested in basic research (I mean discovering stuff and not running clinical trials etc) I would say do the PharmD/PhD. I cannot stress this next point too strongly...DO NOT DO JUST A PHD!!! I have a PhD in Molecular Biology and have been doing research for about 8 years since obtaining it. I am now planning to apply to a PharmD program to get out of research, and this is with just having got 5 years of research funding from the NIH.

The biggest problem with doing just a PhD is job security. The NIH budget has been frozen for several years, resulting in a net decrease in funding due to inflation/wage increase. Lots of well-established researchers are now running out of funding. Private industry is itself not without similar problems - I worked for Rhone Poulenc Rorer for a year in the UK, and they closed that entire site down a few years ago.

I work with a lot of MDs who do research, and they don't seem to "get" how hard it is to be a PhD when funding gets tight. MDs have clinical work (and clinical research) to fall back on. Similarly, if you get a PharmD/PhD, you have the PharmD as security if things don't work out.

When you get old like me and have a house and family, you really don't want to be worrying about whether you're going to continue to have a job every 5 years. It is somewhat difficult to switch out of research the more entrenched you become e.g. getting a job even to teach science is tough if all you've done is research.

A lot of basic research is down to luck, and getting grants funded and papers published requires more subjectivity than it should.

Having said all this, I'm not saying don't do research at all..I'm just saying it's really important to keep your options open!



To correct this...you do not really get handsomely rewarded for your efforts with a PhD (compared to what you get as a Pharmacist). If you do research, after your PhD you generally need to do a postdoc (get paid around 40K). Postdocs last maybe 4-5 years nowadays. Assistant professors (with PhDs) get paid around 70K. I know an associate professor with over 20 years experience who gets paid about $105K. And bear in mind, this is working 60+ hours per week (you are salaried). This is in academia...you will earn more in a company, but it is very hard to find jobs in companies, especially with the economy messed up as it is.

Great post. Job security aside, do you like research? Would you consider getting your PharmD if funding were not so much of a problem? Also, from your perspective, besides job security and more job options, might a PharmD/PhD benefit their clinical/research abilities more than either of the two alone?
 
If you're remotely interested in basic research (I mean discovering stuff and not running clinical trials etc) I would say do the PharmD/PhD. I cannot stress this next point too strongly...DO NOT DO JUST A PHD!!! I have a PhD in Molecular Biology and have been doing research for about 8 years since obtaining it. I am now planning to apply to a PharmD program to get out of research, and this is with just having got 5 years of research funding from the NIH.

The biggest problem with doing just a PhD is job security. The NIH budget has been frozen for several years, resulting in a net decrease in funding due to inflation/wage increase. Lots of well-established researchers are now running out of funding. Private industry is itself not without similar problems - I worked for Rhone Poulenc Rorer for a year in the UK, and they closed that entire site down a few years ago.

I work with a lot of MDs who do research, and they don't seem to "get" how hard it is to be a PhD when funding gets tight. MDs have clinical work (and clinical research) to fall back on. Similarly, if you get a PharmD/PhD, you have the PharmD as security if things don't work out.

When you get old like me and have a house and family, you really don't want to be worrying about whether you're going to continue to have a job every 5 years. It is somewhat difficult to switch out of research the more entrenched you become e.g. getting a job even to teach science is tough if all you've done is research.

A lot of basic research is down to luck, and getting grants funded and papers published requires more subjectivity than it should.

Having said all this, I'm not saying don't do research at all..I'm just saying it's really important to keep your options open!



To correct this...you do not really get handsomely rewarded for your efforts with a PhD (compared to what you get as a Pharmacist). If you do research, after your PhD you generally need to do a postdoc (get paid around 40K). Postdocs last maybe 4-5 years nowadays. Assistant professors (with PhDs) get paid around 70K. I know an associate professor with over 20 years experience who gets paid about $105K. And bear in mind, this is working 60+ hours per week (you are salaried). This is in academia...you will earn more in a company, but it is very hard to find jobs in companies, especially with the economy messed up as it is.

What JimblyUK said. I like research well enough. It is kind of fun and not so much like a "real" job. However, the scientific field is saturated.
 
is there a list somewhere of the different phd's (ex. immunology, biochem, social sciences, etc.) that can be combined with a pharmd? im wondering about some of the interesting combos which are out there!
 
Great post. Job security aside, do you like research? Would you consider getting your PharmD if funding were not so much of a problem? Also, from your perspective, besides job security and more job options, might a PharmD/PhD benefit their clinical/research abilities more than either of the two alone?


I don't enjoy being in the lab anymore. Job satisfaction is very low when it takes months to get anywhere, or you spend a few weeks doing something without success. There is a possibility that one of my current projects that I've spent over 2 years on might not work. There is risk in research, but I'm finding my tolerance has reduced a lot the past few years.

When you do get enough data for a paper, even the lower level journals expect you to have done almost every conceivable experiment. This is a big problem for junior researchers with limited resources.

Lack of support (dedicated technician) from my Boss due to funding issues. I am basically overextended - I have no problem with working hard, but I am so stretched that nothing gets done well. That is a big problem in research.

My research career so far has involved lots of jumping around in research areas. Good in some ways (breadth of knowledge), but bad in others (no depth in one area). The people I see who succeed have worked on basically the same thing since starting their PhDs. I find that I acutally enjoy jumping around more, which is possible in research but makes life more difficult as more the trend to more specialisation occurs.

What I like about Pharmacy:

Less specialisation e.g. an Infectious Disease Clinical Pharmacist is still way less specialised than an ID researcher who might only work, for example, on "Mechanisms of Stapp infection".

I enjoy explaining things to people, and helping them solve problems - an important part of Pharmacy.

I did consider Pharmacy when I was in High School, but thought it was just counting pills. Pharmacology has always been something I've been interested in.

With my background, I can still do research. However, Clinical research is totally different to basic research - I would expect to be doing more of the design and planning rather than the execution. I know a basic scientist who still does all their own rat surgeries due to funding issues.

Everything I have learnt the past 12 years will still be made use of if I switch to Pharmacy.

Good pay - similar to research.

Less stress regarding job security. Pharmacy is not subject to the whims of the government, only the market. All research could end tomorrow, but people would still need meds.

I did consider going into Forensics (something else I've been interested in since I was a kid), but decided that was too similar to what I do now i.e. in the lab all the time.

I would say if you want to do research a PharmD/PhD would be a big help. I don't really see the PhD worth doing if you just want to do clinical work. Likewise you don't need the PharmD if you just want to do research. I would recommend the joint program since it gives you security - especially if the PhD component is only 3 years.
 
What JimblyUK said. I like research well enough. It is kind of fun and not so much like a "real" job. However, the scientific field is saturated.

"Saturated" is a good word to describe the siutation. During the 90s there was "the doubling" i.e. the NIH budget doubled, resulting in tons of new researchers. Now the budget has been flat for about 4-5 years (in fact it's gone down):

http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/nih08p.htm

I read that with inflation/wage increases the effective spending power of the NIH has dropped 13%. This means that people that were funded are nowing having the rug pulled out from under their feet. I know several researchers (including my Boss) who have been doing great work, but are struggling to get funded. And by great work I mean considered a leader in their area with a strong publication record over the past 5-6 years.

The other issue is that now they only fund low-risk projects - you need to basically have enough for a good paper in your preliminary data - which is stifling innovation.

Of the 12 people I know who did their PhDs in the department I did mine in, only 2 of us still do research, and we're both planning on getting out. I hear a lot of people my age (30s) talking about leaving, or actually leaving. On the bright side, if you can stick it for a few years, when the baby boomers retire, and lots of junior people quit there will probably be unlimited money available :D
 
I don't enjoy being in the lab anymore. Job satisfaction is very low when it takes months to get anywhere, or you spend a few weeks doing something without success. There is a possibility that one of my current projects that I've spent over 2 years on might not work. There is risk in research, but I'm finding my tolerance has reduced a lot the past few years.
...

It sounds like funding is the main problem (obviously), with the other problems (lack of help, lack of risky/innovative projects, stress to get funding) being problems only because of funding. Do you not enjoy lab work anymore only because of funding and its subsequent problems, or is it also partially caused by being tired of research and the risks of failure, which will probably be ever present? I know the feelings vary from person to person but I'm just curious.
 
It sounds like funding is the main problem (obviously), with the other problems (lack of help, lack of risky/innovative projects, stress to get funding) being problems only because of funding. Do you not enjoy lab work anymore only because of funding and its subsequent problems, or is it also partially caused by being tired of research and the risks of failure, which will probably be ever present? I know the feelings vary from person to person but I'm just curious.

I think you've pretty much nailed it with this. It is partly the risk of failure that puts me off, and this risk is due to the lack of resources. I know "intellectually" what needs to be done, but lack the means to do it, which is extremely frustrating. The problem is, that in research you get into a vicious cycle - my problems now are going to have a knock-on effect that will give me trouble when I need to apply for more funding in 4 years time. This is a particular problem early on in your career, since you are heavily dependent on one project. When you get established, you can build up multiple projects as insurance.

I'm pretty much burned out with the projects I'm working on due to lack of help. One of the problems is that I do a lot of the grunt-work myself, and only recently managed to convince the boss to get me somebody for 8 hours a week to help out (she helps with the mouse colony). This is a problem because I end up spending time on things that are a waste of my training. I should be reading papers, planning experiments, writing grants etc, when in reality (e.g. last week) I spend over a week troubleshooting a routine PCR screen that decided to randomly stop working.

I guess I only have myself to blame :D I had a great project at my last place of work (UCSF) and I had the option to take it to UPenn, but decided I didn't want to work in that research area. I took a risk coming to my current job and effectively started from scratch, but in an area I'm interested in.

The biggest problem is that I've been here over 3 years and am nowhere near to getting a paper out. Luckily, I still have spillover from what I did at UCSF, which helps make me look productive! I do think if this project works out it will give a lot of mileage. I have wondered what I would do if my boss offered me money and a tech when I tell him I'm quitting. The more I learn about Pharmacy, (including shadowing a transplant Pharmacist), the more appealing it sounds, so who knows?
 
To JimblyUK: I understand that funding is a big issue for researchers, but can you explain more about the job security part because I'm thinking that a PhD can still work in academia as professors who get paid about $80k a year.
And can someone give me to a basic summary of the different dual degrees available with PharmD and their career options. I'm thinking about PharmD/MBA and PharmD/MPH. Which one do you guys think is better considering my interest in drug synthesis and teaching? Thank you.
 
To JimblyUK: I understand that funding is a big issue for researchers, but can you explain more about the job security part because I'm thinking that a PhD can still work in academia as professors who get paid about $80k a year.
And can someone give me to a basic summary of the different dual degrees available with PharmD and their career options. I'm thinking about PharmD/MBA and PharmD/MPH. Which one do you guys think is better considering my interest in drug synthesis and teaching? Thank you.

If you want to do drug synthesis, you really need a PhD or maybe just an MS if you want less responsibility. An MBA is really for someone who wants to start their own business or possibly be a director. An MPH is if you want to work on health policy. Any of these degrees you can probably teach with. I don't know if this is true everywhere, but it seems that most professors are researchers at the university so you might be at a disadvantage for this kind of job if you go a different route.

I don't know if you've heard of the NSF REU grants, but they are a cool way to get some research experience. You basically apply for different sites across the country, and I think they pay for all of your expenses (like living, research costs, etc.). They are done over the summer.
 
Is there a link that lets you search for the different pharmacy schools that offer dual degrees in pharmacy?
 
To JimblyUK: I understand that funding is a big issue for researchers, but can you explain more about the job security part because I'm thinking that a PhD can still work in academia as professors who get paid about $80k a year.
And can someone give me to a basic summary of the different dual degrees available with PharmD and their career options. I'm thinking about PharmD/MBA and PharmD/MPH. Which one do you guys think is better considering my interest in drug synthesis and teaching? Thank you.

The issue with job security only really applies if you're doing pure research, where research grants pay for everything, including all salaries (yours and lab staff). I'll try to explain how the system works. Obtaining funding is a competitive process. One of the issues with the system is that the grant review process is undertaken by peers who may have their own subjective views regarding your research. Your grant is reviewed by 3 people - it only takes one unfavourable review to make your grant get an unfunded score (or in a lot more cases recently, even zero criticisms can still result in no funding).

Several years ago, for the "bread-and-butter" NIH grants (the R01) approximately 20% of grants were funded. You could submit the same grant (with modifications to improve it) up to 3 times total. A lot of researchers also have more than one R01 at a time. You submit one of these grants every 5 years. So with a 20% funding rate, 3 chances to submit the same grant, 5 yearly applications and multiple R01s possible, you had an excellent chance of success.

There are other grants available too - for example in my area of research, the National Kidney Foundation and American Heart Association. These grants are for less money, but the success rate is a little higher than the R01.

The current fundable rate for R01s has dropped below 10%. So as you can see, there are going to be more people now who don't get their grants. This is less of an issue if you have 2 R01s, but a big problem if you only have one.

A lot of universities where the focus is research are moving away from tenure-track and towards fixed-term contracts (due to funding issues). So if you run out of money you are out. However, even tenure doesn't add that much security - you might not get kicked out but your guaranteed salary may only be 50% of your salary when you obtained tenure (depends on the contract).

It is in the interests of the university to retain people, so a lot have emergency funds to help out when a researcher has funding issues. I know 2 established researchers who have had to rely on emergency money for a period, but eventually they obtained their R01s.

An issue currently is that due to the lower funding rate, more people need help to get by. Grants come with "indirect" costs which go to the University. Some of this money is diverted to emergency funds. Less grants means less indirects..you get the picture. One other problem is that when you are getting by with minimal emergency resources, it is harder to generate preliminary data to apply for grants.

So as the funding rate drops (due to the freezing of the NIH budget), you get more people who can't get funding. They could be doing great research e.g. my boss, but since one of the reviewers of his grant doesn't like the system used (he uses frog eggs) the grant gets a lower score. This is in spite of the fact that this system is well-established, and the findings using them shown to extrapolate to in vivo in mammals multiple times.

On the other hand, yes you can have a PhD and work in academia with job security..but you will be primarily teaching undergraduate classes, and maybe doing no research except projects for undergrad students. In this case, your income comes from the University (via tuition) rather than competitive grants. The costs for the research projects also come from the university, but are short-term and relatively cheap. However, more and more "teaching" universities are expecting Faculty to apply for grants and have their own extensive research program, since it brings in money (and prestige).

Bottom line: If you rely on research grants to pay you and NIH funding goes through a down period (like now) you can get in trouble, to the extent where your lab has to close down. I know one person in this position now. They had an issue where the animal facility screwed up the light cycle in their rat room, and they lost a years worth of work for 5 people, right before an R01 was up for renewal. The University could only help them out a little financially, and it looks like the lab might close down completely. I can think of 5 other researchers off the top of my head that are about to run out of money too, but 4 of those are MDs, so they have a backup.

Teaching positions are less prone to this problem. My Boss always tell me not to worry, grant funding goes in cycles, but as I always tell him "You're an MD - if your lab closed tomorrow you would still be earning $300K+". My Boss is a great guy, so I can be blunt with him :D

Sorry for writing so much..I get a little excitable about this topic :oops:
 
If you do PhD in statistics / biostatistics, then you do not have to worry about experiment. Everything is done on the computer through simulation.

Check out the R package and Matlab and SAS.

I am in this field, but I feel that it is very similar to computer science. Of course, it can easily be outsourced in the future. But can't everything unless it is doctor, lawyer, pharmacist, or teacher?

The difference in the biostat field for the pharmaceutical company is that a PhD is required for entry and most programs are very hard and only about 50% or less can finish. The others will leave with MS. But then you have no student debt in most cases, unless you were one of those grad students without funding but that is usually happens when the department thinks that you should only get the MS degree and are not PhD material.

So I would recommend maybe PharmD with a PhD in statistics/biostatistics.

Warnings: The PhD in this route is VERY coursework heavy and exam heavy, similar to PharmD, since all topics in statistics are usually taught in grad school. For the first two-three years you only take coursework, usually as rigorous as professional school. You also need many summer internships to stay competitive if you want to go to pharmacetical industry. The CRO's may not be the best to work although it is very easy to find a job with them (the companies that contract to the big pharm companies).

But I believe that if you wnat to choose PHD choose a statistics PhD
or choose a pharmaceutical science PhD with a research concentration in pharmaokinetics, which is essentially mathematical modeling of the physiology that happens when a drug is taken. I think people who have taken second or third year in pharmacy school is very familiar with this class.

In fact, I almost took the pharmacokientics class taught in the vet school of my university, but it is extremely difficult and very biochem/physiology oriented. And I never took undergrad biochem or physiology. I still think that if I did not have research or other classes and just studied for that, I think I would have been able to do well. It is just that I would have had to pick up an undergrad book in these subjects and try to read them on my own!

In PhD, you also learn to be very independent in learning as well. I am often still working on that! It is a transition and a difference between a professional and a research degree.

So perhaps think about PhD in statistics or in pharamacokinetics
 
There are lots of pharmacy related PhD programs: Medicinal Chemistry, Pharmaceutics, Pharmacology/Toxicology, Pharmacy Practice, Pharmacy Administration.

I an interested in synthesizing medication instead of just plainly being a retail pharmacist. I have been surfing online to find information about PharmD/PhD and all I have found is PharmD/PhD in Pharmaceutical Science. Moreover, my school doesn't have the dual program. I am thinking about pursuing PhD seperately in Pharmacology after finishing PharmD.
 
I an interested in synthesizing medication instead of just plainly being a retail pharmacist. I have been surfing online to find information about PharmD/PhD and all I have found is PharmD/PhD in Pharmaceutical Science. Moreover, my school doesn't have the dual program. I am thinking about pursuing PhD seperately in Pharmacology after finishing PharmD.

That's an option of course. Colorado doesn't have a dual program either. The average time for a PhD here though (for Pharmaceutical Sciences I think) is 5.5 yrs or so. Others in basic sciences are around the same I think so 4+5.5=9.5 yrs. A decade more of schooling.
 
I an interested in synthesizing medication instead of just plainly being a retail pharmacist. I have been surfing online to find information about PharmD/PhD and all I have found is PharmD/PhD in Pharmaceutical Science. Moreover, my school doesn't have the dual program. I am thinking about pursuing PhD seperately in Pharmacology after finishing PharmD.

Synthesis is probably going to be more Med Chem than Pharmacology. A pharmacologist studies how drugs work in the body (receptors, agonists, antagonists, etc). A Med Chemist tries to design new drugs to treat a disease.

You also might be interested in pharmaceutics. They work on drug formulations. For instance, if a Med Chemist created a new antibiotic to treat MRSA, a Pharmaceutics PhD would have to come up with a formulation to deliver the drug with (tablet, capsule, IV solution, etc.)
 
That's a lot of useful information. Thanks everyone. I am certain that I will pursue a PharmD but I want to do a dual degree that will allow me to work with drug synthesis beside a PhD. Do I have a get a Ph.D in order to work with drug synthesis or formulation? Is there a specialty within a PharmD that allows me to do so because for sure there are specialties within an MD such as anesthiology? Thanks.
 
Is there a list somewhere on SDN or somewhere else of all schools offering a PharmD/PhD?
 
That being said, clinical trials is one of the hottest, most interesting research areas, and high-paying as well that they are.

I am experiencing this on the statistics side (with statistics PhD).

I would highly recommend both degrees.

You will be at a disadvantage:

without PharmD: you cannot become an "official" pharmacist or practice pharmacy with a license


without a PhD: you will either be forced into retail or have to do a large-scale residency/fellowship anyway which will take as much time as the 3 added on years


So I say definitely do PharmD/PhD

The PhD part is paid for you. You do not take out extra loans for those three years.

Apply to PharmD/PhD programs. Go for it!! You will be much happier as you can practice pharmacy and research in any setting.

Highly recommended. In fact, I once thought about doing this route several times.

Hint: I have one internship at NIH and another summer internship at a major pharm company. Although in biostatistics, I have the general feeling about pharmacy also.

Just wondering, what would you get a PhD in for clinical trials (besides statistics)? I'm doing a PharmD with a statistics minor, but I don't think I could ever do a whole PhD in statistics.
I was speaking to a clinical trials pharmacist and he said that the best way to approach trials would be PharmD+fellowship (so 2 years or so added on, maybe 3).
I honestly think this is better than a PhD. Yes, you don't have a fancy degree, but in a fellowship you get paid a little, and you don't have to defend a thesis. Plus on average it'll probably take 1 to 2 years less than a PhD.
Also think about this: after a PhD, you usually have to do a fellowship (postdoc) anyway to do any research.

To samurai: for drug synthesis, a PhD in pharmacology would be the best option. I wouldn't recommend going the PharmD route in your case. Too much shooling
 
I am not sure how you would get into clinical trials unless you were an MD or a PhD biostatistician. I know about the Rutgers fellowship, but I bet that is extremely competitive. There are only so many positions for PharmD's and I still think the MD's get better preference.

Of course, the Rutgers fellowship or UNC/PPD fellowship would be the best route. You would get real life experience in a company, the best type of training that one can get. But if you cannot get in that way, then you would need to go another route.

I was once thinking about doing PharmD, but I am very alarmed by the many, many schools opening up every year. With that many schools, I believe there definitely will be saturation in the retail market and right now there are just not enough clinical jobs / pharmaceutical company jobs to absorb all those graduates. I wish that the AACP would limit the number of new schools opening up (and many of them are not very geared toward clinical, of course there are exceptions). It could possibly be very bad in the future. Even GSK in RTP is laying off many people right now.

There are always a need for doctors, and you do not see many, many medical schools opening up every year, with the exception of some DO schools which are geared more toward family practice anyway.

Sorry if this is a little off topic.
 
Hi Jimbly UK,

Thanks for the posts! Gee, I totally understand. I think I used to work at the same place you do in Portland. The glowing U on the hill filled with MDs who run labs... I jumped off the hill and am in industry now, though it's not much better :) I have decided to make the change from research to pharmacy and some days I have doubts, but your posts make me realize that I've made a good decision. Gone are the days of troubleshooting PCRs and Westerns (and I look forward to the day when I never have to split cells again!).

To those who are considering research and the PharmD/PhD program, make sure you get some "real" lab experience before making the commitment. Read over Jimbly's posts because they clearly point out that research life is rough and is getting worse as funding continues to vanish. The slow progress in a lab is also a hard aspect for me. There are so many people who spend their entire lives chasing after a protein or a mutation (and more power to them if they can stand that stuff) and that would be too discouraging for me.

I think I will find more satisfaction with helping people understand their medications than running gel after gel in the lab and never seeing one smile back at me. Every job has pros and cons, but I've learned from experience how important it is to really research the field before you jump into it.
 
I am not sure how you would get into clinical trials unless you were an MD or a PhD biostatistician. I know about the Rutgers fellowship, but I bet that is extremely competitive. There are only so many positions for PharmD's and I still think the MD's get better preference.

Of course, the Rutgers fellowship or UNC/PPD fellowship would be the best route. You would get real life experience in a company, the best type of training that one can get. But if you cannot get in that way, then you would need to go another route.

I was once thinking about doing PharmD, but I am very alarmed by the many, many schools opening up every year. With that many schools, I believe there definitely will be saturation in the retail market and right now there are just not enough clinical jobs / pharmaceutical company jobs to absorb all those graduates. I wish that the AACP would limit the number of new schools opening up (and many of them are not very geared toward clinical, of course there are exceptions). It could possibly be very bad in the future. Even GSK in RTP is laying off many people right now.

There are always a need for doctors, and you do not see many, many medical schools opening up every year, with the exception of some DO schools which are geared more toward family practice anyway.

Sorry if this is a little off topic.

Well I read an article on PharmacyStudentWeek about clinical trials pharmacists and the Rutgers fellowship, and it said that they're actually now giving preference to PharmDs rather than MDs because of the PharmDs' extensive drug knowledge.

But you made your point, only 2 fellowships in the whole country with not too many spaces. I guess I gotta keep that GPA up then and consider backups now. If I don't get into clinical research, I guess I'll consider doing MTM or regulatory affairs.

Kinda scares me because I don't think Rutgers likes USP very much (they're both well-established direct-entry pharmacy programs strongly tied to the industry, so naturally they would compete), so I don't know how they'd treat a USP graduate in the applicant pool.
 
Doesn't USP place people in the pharmaceutical industry? I assume that they must have rotations there. It is the first school of pharmacy and is located in Philadelphia, and as you know, the majority of the pharmaceutical companies are located between Philadelphia and New York, in either suburban Philadedelphia, or northern New Jersey. Does USP have their own fellowship program? I would think if they are so influential in the pharmacy field that they say they are, that these opportunities would definitely be available.

I am in North Carolina right now, but the opportunities there are not as good as Philadelphia / New Jersey. You only have GSK (and they are laying off people right now), Quintiles and PPD (larger CROs), and many smaller CROs (Pharpoint, Kendle, PRA, Talecris, etc.), while the Philadelphia / New Jersey has Bristol-Myers Squibb, Novartis, Sanofi-Aventis, Novo Nordisk, Merck, etc (big pharm as well as CROs).
 
Doesn't USP place people in the pharmaceutical industry? I assume that they must have rotations there. It is the first school of pharmacy and is located in Philadelphia, and as you know, the majority of the pharmaceutical companies are located between Philadelphia and New York, in either suburban Philadedelphia, or northern New Jersey. Does USP have their own fellowship program? I would think if they are so influential in the pharmacy field that they say they are, that these opportunities would definitely be available.

I am in North Carolina right now, but the opportunities there are not as good as Philadelphia / New Jersey. You only have GSK (and they are laying off people right now), Quintiles and PPD (larger CROs), and many smaller CROs (Pharpoint, Kendle, PRA, Talecris, etc.), while the Philadelphia / New Jersey has Bristol-Myers Squibb, Novartis, Sanofi-Aventis, Novo Nordisk, Merck, etc (big pharm as well as CROs).

I believe there are industry rotations (since yes, we are tied to the industry, that's why I chose to go here) and someone told me that they think we do have a clinical research rotation as an option, but unfortunately we don't have any of our own fellowships (I believe we do have a few residencies though in various specialties). We don't have our own hospital, so it'd be kind of hard to do clinical research here.

I went to a job fair my freshman year and lots of pharmaceutical companies were there, but most of the jobs were for regulatory affairs and stuff like that, I don't think there were any clinical research positions for pharmacists (but of course that's logical since there's no way you'll get that kind of a job straight out of school without a fellowship).
 
PharmD/Phd program is very competitive. I don't think they would have spots for all of us. At Mercer, they only accept 3 out of 145 per academic year ..... For the above posts, seem like we're all interested in this dual program.. it's going to be a competitive to get in..!! It's like another round of competition after struggling to get into pharmd program.
 
JimblyUK said:
Bottom line: If you rely on research grants to pay you and NIH funding goes through a down period (like now) you can get in trouble, to the extent where your lab has to close down. I know one person in this position now. They had an issue where the animal facility screwed up the light cycle in th

Hi JimblyUK.. I talk to several Ph.Ds. And they told me that the research jobs sometimes have unpredictable schedules (not a guaranteed 40 hr weeks) and you need to be constantly thinking about the project on your free time. I guess it's a major drawback. One of the good things about clinician job (nursing, pharmacy, PA etc) is that you don't take it home and you have a flexible and guaranteed hours, although a pharmacist I know claimed that it was boring and not challenging for her. She got Ph.D after R.Ph.

Research jobs may be interesting but I do not want to trade off with my personal life for it. I have hobbies and other things I want to do.
JimblyUK, is this true?

I am spoiled for working 3 days a week (12 hr shift) and not having to think about it when I off, although I do not really passionate about my job that much now..

I guess every job has its drawbacks.
 
pharmaceutics PhD programs are extremely hard to get into. Most people who get into them have been in another program (usually out of country, as most people entering have bachelors of pharmacy in another country), and have had some type of relationship with the faculty member who will take them to be their advisor. I remember once I asked UF pharmaceutics about how many UF pharmacy students in history did PharmD/PhD, with PhD in their department, and the reply was only one in the whole history. And I asked where the students came from, they were mostly from China, Germany, Thailand, India, etc.

So maybe it is the same at Mercer, as is posted above.

Also, unlike MD/PhD, the pharmacy school does not pay for the PharmD. You still have to either take out loans and pay yourself.

I also have a friend on this board, who applied to several pharmaceutics PhD programs after getting bachelor of pharmacy in China and couldn't get in. After studying biochemistry for two years, he is now going to start Nova International PharmD program.

The only way you can get into a program like this I think is to find a more research oriented school that will encourage their PharmD's to continue on for a PhD. I know that at UNC-Chapel Hill, there are several students who got their PharmD and are now doing their PhD. I think you need to find a PharmD program that is very research based but not too large. Otherwise there will be too many people wanting to do the PhD pharmaceutics. If there is a large research school with not a crazy amount of students, then you will get to know your professors better, especially the ones in the pharmaceutics department. During the summers, you could work with them in research projects. If they like your work, then they may admit you to the PhD program to work with them. Remember, in a PhD program in science, the adviser needs to accept you. Hence, I would recommend going an avenue where you can make substantial contact with faculty while in the PharmD program.

By the way, pharmacokinetics is a very hot field, and if one gets PhD in pharmaceutical science with research in PK/PD, he/she will be able to get a job in a pharmaceutical company starting out at around $80-100K, practically the same as someone with a PharmD. But a big pharm, (think Merck, Eli Lilly, Pfizer, etc.)

So I recommend looking at UNC, Buffalo, UCSF, Michigan, etc to get your PharmD if one is considering doing this.
 
if applying to a pharmd/phd program, do you think getting a MS will improve chances? And will they consider having less pharm experience as not much of a deal if more research (publications) is present?
 
if applying to a pharmd/phd program, do you think getting a MS will improve chances? And will they consider having less pharm experience as not much of a deal if more research (publications) is present?

MS/PharmD/PhD? That's an insane amount of schooling, and not worth it. Just get the MS and PhD and skip the PharmD.
 
well, i can get my MS in 1 year at the school im going to thats why.

hows the 5 years pharmd/phd program at uop anyway? sounds insanely fast!
 
MS/PharmD/PhD? That's an insane amount of schooling, and not worth it. Just get the MS and PhD and skip the PharmD.

Average Ph.D length is 5 years. If Pharm.D/Ph.D takes 6-7 years in general, I would not think it is insanely long (2-3 more years). From a non-science Bachelor background like me, I would take me at least 6 years anyway just to get a Ph.D alone.
 
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