PhD considering MD Admissions

[scidoc12]

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Hi everyone,

I'm a PhD candidate soon to graduate and considering applying to medical school next year. There are a number of things that I do not have under my belt that are critical to the process and I wanted to get advice on my plan to fill those gaps.

Anyhow, I've identified a number of gaps in my candidacy for medical school:

- Lack of clinical experience
- Lack of volunteering
- Missing prerequisite coursework (Cell Biology and Psychology)
- No MCAT
- GPA is borderline (3.5 UG and 3.6 Grad) with a red flag in first semester organic chemistry (C+).

I can't really fix my undergrad performance, but I can still strive for a competitive MCAT score while volunteering and shadowing a physician.

Here's a rough plan:

- Take Cell Biology and Psychology at a either my current University (if accepted) or at another college.
- Find a physician to shadow.
- Get EMT training and work as an EMT to gain experience in emergency medicine and to support myself financially.
- Study and take the MCAT

Is this a reasonable year-long plan? Any advice, concerns, reality checks and warnings are appreciated.

EDIT: Any advice regarding how high/low I should aim in terms of medical school tier is also welcome. I'm thinking 2nd-tier and lower (pretty slim chance I'll make Harvard or JHU)

EDIT2: How do I approach the MCATs as soeone who has taken the prereqs over 5 years ago?

Do I need to fully review courses from over 5 years ago? Or is it enough to review MCAT prep material and review relevant course concepts as needed?

EDIT3: Realize I include TMI. Removed some defining info for increased anonymity.

 

[etp123]

Honestly you're not in bad shape with that GPA! Heck, some of us pulled ourselves up from below a 3.0. If you want you could even retake that first semester of organic chemistry to kind of remediate that red flag to some degree. It won't go away, but at least doing well in a retake shows you've mastered it now.

That certainly seems very reasonable. I would put a lot of emphasis on the MCAT since a very high MCAT and GPA are the most important things to get your foot in the door. This may or may not be necessary, but I would also look into getting any bedside clinical experience such as volunteering through a clinical career extender program, or any sort of volunteering that gets you on the floor with patients and medical staff. My local hospital had one where we scrubbed up and got to assist in changing/feeding/positioning patients as well as shadow procedures. EMT does give you some experience with emergency medicine but is not exactly the same.

You can also consider an SMP if you don't make it in your first round of applications. But I think as long as you nail that MCAT and get some shadowing/clinical experience, you'll be in decent shape.

 

[scidoc12]

Honestly you're not in bad shape with that GPA! Heck, some of us pulled ourselves up from below a 3.0. If you want you could even retake that first semester of organic chemistry to kind of remediate that red flag to some degree. It won't go away, but at least doing well in a retake shows you've mastered it now.

That certainly seems very reasonable. I would put a lot of emphasis on the MCAT since a very high MCAT and GPA are the most important things to get your foot in the door. This may or may not be necessary, but I would also look into getting any bedside clinical experience such as volunteering through a clinical career extender program, or any sort of volunteering that gets you on the floor with patients and medical staff. My local hospital had one where we scrubbed up and got to assist in changing/feeding/positioning patients as well as shadow procedures. EMT does give you some experience with emergency medicine but is not exactly the same.

You can also consider an SMP if you don't make it in your first round of applications. But I think as long as you nail that MCAT and get some shadowing/clinical experience, you'll be in decent shape.

Thanks for the advice. So EMT work is considered less useful? I was under the impression it could take the place of volunteer experience.

 

[etp123]

Disclaimer: this may not be representative of the views for all adcoms, but from people/reps I've talked to EMT work is acceptable but it is not necessarily the same thing as clinical experience in a hospital or similar type setting. EMT work certainly is relevant, but if you have the opportunity to do more bedside, on the floor of a hospital type stuff they would appreciate that more. But yes if you do not have the time for the latter, your EMT work and shadowing should be good enough for ECs. Reiterating though, MCAT and GPA are most important.

 

[Goro]

Keep inb mind that your grad GPA will not count for MD schools (but will for DO). Your UG GPA is good.

You now should start shadowing doctors, and do some patient volunteer work to see if this really is the career for you.

I have to be blunt, and I'm aware you haven't started the journey yet, but everything in your post says that you're running away from research and not towards Medicine.

Your ECs should now be planned to prove my skepticism wrong.

FYI: at my school, EMTs are considered to be glorified taxi drivers. Be a paramedic if you want more. I challenge you to go volunteer in a hospice or a nursing home.

Hi everyone,

I'm a PhD candidate soon to graduate (by June) and considering applying to medical school next year. There are a number of things that I do not have under my belt that are critical to the process and I wanted to get advice on my plan to fill those gaps.

First off, I'd like to provide some context for those interested (otherwise, jump to later sections): I do research on biomedical materials and analytical devices/techniques for biomedical applications. As I gained expertise in my field, I realizes that the vast majority of academic research projects are worthless to the medical community and is really just a huge circle jerk for academics. I was initially interested in medicine back in college, but fell in love with research, without realizing the problems with the academic route. On the other hand, industry offers a more practical avenue to help make an impact on how medical professionals provide care, yet research jobs at most of these companies are routine, lack innovation, and are dictated by the companies' bottom lines. In fact, most of their budgets go towards marketing rather than R&D. And let's not mention how much of a game it is to try and find a job with a PhD in industry. I want to have a closer and more direct relationship with the healthcare community. I want to know that my work is making an impact and that it isn't just academic self-aggrandizement or being an industry lab monkey.

Anyhow, I've identified a number of gaps in my candidacy for medical school:

- Lack of clinical experience
- Lack of volunteering
- Missing prerequisite coursework (Cell Biology and Psychology)
- No MCAT
- GPA is borderline (3.5 UG and 3.6 Grad) with a red flag in first semester organic chemistry (C+).

I can't really fix my undergrad performance, but I can still strive for a competitive MCAT score while volunteering and shadowing a physician.

Here's a rough plan:

- Take Cell Biology and Psychology at a either my current University (if accepted) or at another college.
- Find a physician to shadow.
- Get EMT training and work as an EMT to gain experience in emergency medicine and to support myself financially.
- Study and take the MCAT

Is this a reasonable year-long plan? Any advice, concerns, reality checks and warnings are appreciated.

EDIT: Any advice regarding how high/low I should aim in terms of medical school tier is also welcome. I'm thinking 2nd-tier and lower (pretty slim chance I'll make Harvard or JHU)

 

[scidoc12]

Keep inb mind that your grad GPA will not count for MD schools (but will for DO). Your UG GPA is good.

You now should start shadowing doctors, and do some patient volunteer work to see if this really is the career for you.

I have to be blunt, and I'm aware you haven't started the journey yet, but everything in your post says that you're running away from research and not towards Medicine.

Your ECs should now be planned to prove my skepticism wrong.

FYI: at my school, EMTs are considered to be glorified taxi drivers. Be a paramedic if you want more. I challenge you to go volunteer in a hospice or a nursing home.

You are partially right about me running from research more so than I am running towards medicine. That's part of the reason I need to volunteer and shadow before I decide if I should pursue this as a change in career. The EMT route just seemed more engaging and a good way to support myself during the process. I would only look into it further if after the volunteer experiences I believe this is the career for me.

Thanks for the reality check I haven't decided on this road yet, but simply wanted to get some perspective on how reasonable it would be for me to build a competitive application.

Another question I forgot to ask is this: How do I approach the MCATs?

Do I need to fully review courses from over 5 years ago? Or is it enough to review MCAT prep material and review relevant course concepts as needed?

 

[QofQuimica]

You should start by deciding if you even want to be a doctor first. Worry about MCAT prep after you decide that you definitely need to take the MCAT. As others have already said, the first step is getting some relevant clinical experience where you see first-hand what it is that physicians actually do on a day-to-day basis. There is tons of BS in every career; in some respects, the BS you have to deal with in medicine will even be worse than the BS you currently have in research. Working as an EMT is fine, but it's not going to give you much direct interaction with ER docs. If you want to gain insight on emergency medicine, you're better off becoming an ER volunteer or an ER scribe. The latter job in particular will give you a ton of direct contact with ER docs.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Hi everyone,

I'm a PhD candidate soon to graduate (by June) and considering applying to medical school next year. There are a number of things that I do not have under my belt that are critical to the process and I wanted to get advice on my plan to fill those gaps.

First off, I'd like to provide some context for those interested (otherwise, jump to later sections): I do research on biomedical materials and analytical devices/techniques for biomedical applications. As I gained expertise in my field, I realizes that the vast majority of academic research projects are worthless to the medical community and is really just a huge circle jerk for academics. I was initially interested in medicine back in college, but fell in love with research, without realizing the problems with the academic route. On the other hand, industry offers a more practical avenue to help make an impact on how medical professionals provide care, yet research jobs at most of these companies are routine, lack innovation, and are dictated by the companies' bottom lines. In fact, most of their budgets go towards marketing rather than R&D. And let's not mention how much of a game it is to try and find a job with a PhD in industry. I want to have a closer and more direct relationship with the healthcare community. I want to know that my work is making an impact and that it isn't just academic self-aggrandizement or being an industry lab monkey.

Anyhow, I've identified a number of gaps in my candidacy for medical school:

- Lack of clinical experience
- Lack of volunteering
- Missing prerequisite coursework (Cell Biology and Psychology)
- No MCAT
- GPA is borderline (3.5 UG and 3.6 Grad) with a red flag in first semester organic chemistry (C+).

I can't really fix my undergrad performance, but I can still strive for a competitive MCAT score while volunteering and shadowing a physician.

Here's a rough plan:

- Take Cell Biology and Psychology at a either my current University (if accepted) or at another college.
- Find a physician to shadow.
- Get EMT training and work as an EMT to gain experience in emergency medicine and to support myself financially.
- Study and take the MCAT

Is this a reasonable year-long plan? Any advice, concerns, reality checks and warnings are appreciated.

EDIT: Any advice regarding how high/low I should aim in terms of medical school tier is also welcome. I'm thinking 2nd-tier and lower (pretty slim chance I'll make Harvard or JHU)

EDIT2: How do I approach the MCATs as soeone who has taken the prereqs over 5 years ago?

Do I need to fully review courses from over 5 years ago? Or is it enough to review MCAT prep material and review relevant course concepts as needed?

I would highly recommend following a physician in 2-3 diffetent specialties for a while before investing any time or money in preparing for medical school. Without a realistic look, everything else is a moot point.

I personally don't think your past academic record will be a major red flag as long as you do well on the MCAT and apply widely (if I interviewed you now, I'd care less about one C+ in a class that has zero to do with being a physician). I would not interview you unless I saw a substantial amount of time was spent finding out what a career in medicine entails. EMT won't do that for you.

I'm not convinced a medical degree will supplement or enhance your career aspirations based on what you've posted here, however. If you think there are egos in research, wait until you see medicine where everyone for the most part was the top 10% of everything before medical school. Think of it as a totally different career. Good luck!

 

[Petypet]

Think long and hard before embarking on the journey that is medical school. I was in your spot about 6 years ago and my perception of everything has changed in just 4 years of medical school. Scottish chap gives the proper advice to first make sure its worth it to you to go into medicine and as a PhD you should shadow some of the more intense specialities to see what life is actually like.

I would say:
1. Figure out if making the switch is worth it and then if it is:
2. Figure out all your pre-req issues. As a non-trad, PhD, I felt that my major issue was rushing through the process and if you apply this year for entrance to medical school in 2017 you are rushing it. You need to hammer the MCAT and have that score early in the application process. If you can take the MCAT ASAP and do well, you can apply this cycle, but I would take your time and focus on #1 first. If you spend all summer deciding that you want to be a physician, take your 2 classes, volunteer, shadow, and make a little cash. My guess is you can't take the MCAT in a month or 2 and get the score you desire.

That all said, I said the EXACT same thing once starting this process. The PhD market sucks, being a post-doc sucks, big pharma sucks, this was a waste of time. 4 years after I started medical school my PhD was my biggest selling point and I am excited at the opportunity to do research at a big power house and have a career that reintegrates my previous life.

Medicine isn't all roses, choosing a speciality sucks, the process of matching sucks, dragging family along sucks, postponing fun sucks. But in the end it was worth it and I love the opportunity I have to have a good job in a fun, exciting, field.

 

[scidoc12]

That all said, I said the EXACT same thing once starting this process. The PhD market sucks, being a post-doc sucks, big pharma sucks, this was a waste of time. 4 years after I started medical school my PhD was my biggest selling point and I am excited at the opportunity to do research at a big power house and have a career that reintegrates my previous life.

Medicine isn't all roses, choosing a speciality sucks, the process of matching sucks, dragging family along sucks, postponing fun sucks. But in the end it was worth it and I love the opportunity I have to have a good job in a fun, exciting, field.

Thanks for the insight, I was hoping someone with a similar experience would chime in. I'm only 26, no family of my own with only the fear of squandering the opportunities that I have been presented. The PhD was useful, but it feels like I don't belong and I don't see fulfillment or happiness in any of the routes available to me (which do not include academia). I want to feel connected to the work I do and have a positive effect on society.

If I plan to apply, it would be in Spring/Summer of next year after at least 6 months of shadowing and volunteering across a few specialities and ample MCAT preparation. It would be what trads call a "gap year" although I will be working as a post-doc.

I would highly recommend following a physician in 2-3 diffetent specialties for a while before investing any time or money in preparing for medical school. Without a realistic look, everything else is a moot point.

I'm not convinced a medical degree will supplement or enhance your career aspirations based on what you've posted here, however. If you think there are egos in research, wait until you see medicine where everyone for the most part was the top 10% of everything before medical school. Think of it as a totally different career. Good luck!

I plan on volunteering and shadowing after I defend my thesis (my adviser is letting me stay on as a post-doc while I explore my options so I guess the EMT route might be less useful after all). You are absolutely right about getting experience and gaining a better understanding of what it's like to be a doctor. I just wanted to have an overall idea of my chances if I decided to head down this road.

My issue with academia isn't ego. It's that I don't feel connected to my work and that I'm unfulfilled by publishing papers on things that have almost no impact on society.

You should start by deciding if you even want to be a doctor first. Worry about MCAT prep after you decide that you definitely need to take the MCAT. As others have already said, the first step is getting some relevant clinical experience where you see first-hand what it is that physicians actually do on a day-to-day basis. There is tons of BS in every career; in some respects, the BS you have to deal with in medicine will even be worse than the BS you currently have in research. Working as an EMT is fine, but it's not going to give you much direct interaction with ER docs. If you want to gain insight on emergency medicine, you're better off becoming an ER volunteer or an ER scribe. The latter job in particular will give you a ton of direct contact with ER docs.

Thanks for the reply Q! As mentioned by others, I definitely need to shadow and volunteer before making any decisions about applying to medical school.

 

[Route57A]

I would highly recommend following a physician in 2-3 diffetent specialties for a while before investing any time or money in preparing for medical school. Without a realistic look, everything else is a moot point.

I personally don't think your past academic record will be a major red flag as long as you do well on the MCAT and apply widely (if I interviewed you now, I'd care less about one C+ in a class that has zero to do with being a physician). I would not interview you unless I saw a substantial amount of time was spent finding out what a career in medicine entails. EMT won't do that for you.

I'm not convinced a medical degree will supplement or enhance your career aspirations based on what you've posted here, however. If you think there are egos in research, wait until you see medicine where everyone for the most part was the top 10% of everything before medical school. Think of it as a totally different career. Good luck!

Not true at all. Think about all those people that had to do grade replacement to redeem themselves because of not doing well previously. This is especially true with those in DO schools.

 

[Petypet]

The PhD was useful, but it feels like I don't belong and I don't see fulfillment or happiness in any of the routes available to me (which do not include academia). I want to feel connected to the work I do and have a positive effect on society.
]

This will be the kicker after a year of shadowing and volunteering. This process changes you, for better or for worse, and I really felt the same way. My post doc was in a clinical field and felt like I was just working for the man. Now in medicine, I love the work that I get to do, but I am not sure my premed view of the world of wanting to have a positive effect on society is still there. And frankly, I feel like I have more of a positive effect on society with the research and ability to be home for my wife and kids.*

*I had a gf when starting medical school, plus a dog, a cat, and was also 26. Now 30 I am married with 2 dogs, 2 cats, and a kid.

 

[QofQuimica]

Take things one step at a time, OP. You're young; you have plenty of time to decide. I was 31 when I started med school (also after my PhD). But yes, you really do need to shadow and volunteer as your first step. And like I said before, if you want paid employment that will give you a lot of access to ER docs and a good window into emergency medicine, look into becoming a scribe. That will be better experience for this purpose (ie, deciding about med school) than becoming an EMT, which is a completely different career, will be.

Not true at all. Think about all those people that had to do grade replacement to redeem themselves because of not doing well previously. This is especially true with those in DO schools.

Hence why he said "for the most part." And even those people who had to do post bacs to redeem prior poor grades were top performers in their post bac programs, or they wouldn't have made it into med school. There is no med school anywhere in the country that is not full of overachieving Type A personalities, including every DO school. Once you go to med school yourself, you will see what SC and I mean.

 

[DrMikeP]

You are partially right about me running from research more so than I am running towards medicine. That's part of the reason I need to volunteer and shadow before I decide if I should pursue this as a change in career. The EMT route just seemed more engaging and a good way to support myself during the process. I would only look into it further if after the volunteer experiences I believe this is the career for me.

Thanks for the reality check I haven't decided on this road yet, but simply wanted to get some perspective on how reasonable it would be for me to build a competitive application.

Another question I forgot to ask is this: How do I approach the MCATs?

Do I need to fully review courses from over 5 years ago? Or is it enough to review MCAT prep material and review relevant course concepts as needed?

FYI... Some of the MD programs I spoke with told me that they would not accept required science coursework that was over 5-7yrs old, so you will want to check with your potential schools if going that route and your core courses are older. No DO program mentioned any problem with such. They all were happy with english, psychology, math, etc that was taken years ago, but not the sciences.

 

[Route57A]

Take things one step at a time, OP. You're young; you have plenty of time to decide. I was 31 when I started med school (also after my PhD). But yes, you really do need to shadow and volunteer as your first step. And like I said before, if you want paid employment that will give you a lot of access to ER docs and a good window into emergency medicine, look into becoming a scribe. That will be better experience for this purpose (ie, deciding about med school) than becoming an EMT, which is a completely different career, will be.


Hence why he said "for the most part." And even those people who had to do post bacs to redeem prior poor grades were top performers in their post bac programs, or they wouldn't have made it into med school. There is no med school anywhere in the country that is not full of overachieving Type A personalities, including every DO school. Once you go to med school yourself, you will see what SC and I mean.

Well my Ph.d is in Geophysics, and my classmates were nothing but top achieving people in a very conceptually difficult program. None of my colleagues had to do post-baccs to get in because they were already very strong with physics, math, etc.

I later did an MD because that was my second interest. I did not find the academics to be any harder. I also loved the fact that I didn't have to teach and conduct research anymore.