Physical therapist success?

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Dunlap25

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I know in some places PT's can make 90-100,000$ but the median is about $80,000. So I was wondering do they make enough to live comfortably?

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For Bill Gates, $80K is a rounding error. For a peasant in Africa living on less than $1/day, $80K is the earnings of 200 lifetimes. You have to ask yourself what it's worth to you.
 
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^That's a pretty awesome way to think about it. My brother makes 80K and has a huge house, takes trips often, has a huge TV, nice car, etc.... And I also know people that make 170k/yr and have accumulated tons of debt. It's all about how you budget and spend your money.
 
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"Living comfortably" is very possible but also very subjective. If you were raised in a home that was always just scraping by, your idea of "comfortable" may be a lot different than someone that grew up with every thing they ever asked for. Some people are comfortable on a tight budget; some aren't. Some will be happy in a small house, leaving more for spending; some won't be. No one but you can determine how much income is enough for you or if the job is worth that income. I suggest a good budgeting program and some number crunching to get a realistic idea of what $80k means after taxes and expenses. And then do it again with something closer to starting salary.
 
To the op:

I suggest you consider the student loan debt that is required to be a physical therapist. If it is 100% what u want to do, go for it! If you have any doubts, don't take on the debt. The PT path has one of the worst cost/benefit ratios of all health professions given the 6 figure debt many accrue, the 3yr opportunity cost, and the mediocre declining starting salary of 60k
 
To the op:

I suggest you consider the student loan debt that is required to be a physical therapist. If it is 100% what u want to do, go for it! If you have any doubts, don't take on the debt. The PT path has one of the worst cost/benefit ratios of all health professions given the 6 figure debt many accrue, the 3yr opportunity cost, and the mediocre declining starting salary of 60k

I would not say the majority of PT students have a 6 figure debt. Many students who stay in state aren't anywhere near 6 figure debt. It is up to the student to make smart decisions when they are pursuing a career in the health field.
 
I disagree. I know plenty of PTs and students.....90% have between 100-180k in principal student loan debt between undergrad and PT school. The cost for PT school is insane compared to the salary AND the fact that salaries have a ceiling in this profession AND the fact that reimbursements are declining, therapycap is being implemented which all in turn reduce the salary of PTs. PT was a GREAT bang for ur buck and quality of life when it was a certificate and a BS degree. No need for this "professional" doctorate to exist. Many health professions are moving this way b/c it jacks up tuition. Trust me, I've been through it, the "D" is a borderline scam.
 
With that being said, if PT is ur passion and you know you would love doing it as a career, the student loans should not matter and you should absolutely pursue it
 
I should also note that at least half my graduating class would agree that the D is completely unwarranted for the current PTs scope of practice.
 
I should also note that at least half my graduating class would agree that the D is completely unwarranted for the current PTs scope of practice.

So you are in a PT program right now and feel that way? I hope that is not a program in Florida
 
I should also note that at least half my graduating class would agree that the D is completely unwarranted for the current PTs scope of practice.
I know many people in my current DPT class who would agree with that. The general consensus seems to be that the third year is just a way to get more tuition dollars from the student. I do not necessarily agree with this statement but it seems to be a common theme.
 
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I know many people in my current DPT class who would agree with that. The general consensus seems to be that the third year is just a way to get more tuition dollars from the student. I do not necessarily agree with this statement but it seems to be a common theme.
No it's pretty true. It should not be necessary for me to spend several hundred dollars per day working in a clinic that does not receive any money from the school to supervise me. the biggest money grab, period.
 
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No it's pretty true. It should not be necessary for me to spend several hundred dollars per day working in a clinic that does not receive any money from the school to supervise me. the biggest money grab, period.

It's true that you pay tuition while on clinicals. But realize that your tuition pays for your on-the-job training. So there is some value there. Now, whether than training is worth what you pay in tuition is up for debate...
 
Do you guys wish you had done something different? Am I blinded to reality of this profession by the joyous feeling of being accepted to PT school? Should i just get my CSCS and become and over qualified personal trainer?
 
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Do you guys wish you had done something different? Am I blinded to reality of this profession by the joyous feeling of being accepted to PT school? Should i just get my CSCS and become and over qualified personal trainer?
Naw, we're just bitchin and complaining. Don't sweat it.
 
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Do you guys wish you had done something different? Am I blinded to reality of this profession by the joyous feeling of being accepted to PT school? Should i just get my CSCS and become and over qualified personal trainer?

Whatever you do, DON'T become a personal trainer, whether your're qualified or not. At least as a PT you'll have a well-paying job, even though you'll be paying off loans for 10 years. If PT is the only thing you want to do, then debt shouldn't deter you from school.
 
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Whatever you do, DON'T become a personal trainer, whether your're qualified or not. At least as a PT you'll have a well-paying job, even though you'll be paying off loans for 10 years. If PT is the only thing you want to do, then debt shouldn't deter you from school.
I agree with all this. Do not become a personal trainer for any reason. PT is a much better gig.
 
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Naw, we're just bitchin and complaining. Don't sweat it.
HAHA yeah. I love what I do.
And yeah don't become a trainer. Waste of your education. That's be like going to med school to take blood.
 
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I absolutely agree with the statement that, "if pt is the only thing you want to do, then do not let the loans affect ur decision, rather just realize going to pt school is not the best bang for the buck available.".

However, I do not think we are all complaining. I think we present valid points as to the legitimacy in this profession demanding 7yrs of school + a lot of student loan debt. I feel I can speak on this b/c I have done the schooling....my observations were that someone who is a personal trainer with a CSCS nearly does everything PTs do. This is true IN THE OUTPATIENT ORTHO setting only. The basic exercises, stretches, strengthening etc that are directed by a PT are done just as well (if not better b/c they have less paperwork to worry about) by personal trainers with cscs knowledge. In my personal opinion, if you have any doubt about being a PT, just don't do it. Its not worth the time, money, energy to do something you are not 100% sold on. I'd advise that unless you know that being a PT is the only career u would be happy with, don't do it.
 
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Whats up with the constant bashing of personal trainers on this forum?

There are plenty of personal trainers out there who know more when it comes to working with more athletic populations than some physical therapists who work in OP..... trainers like Eric Cressey, Mike Boyle to name a few, and im sure thousands of others who just arent as well known as the two I just mentioned. Ive noticed the same thing amongst some of my classmates...there are some who think that because they have spent 2+ years in PT school, that they automatically know more than a personal trainer when it comes to strength training and working with more athletic / able populations. Most PT schools dont teach you how to teach clients how to perform a proper deadlift, front or back squat (just a few examples)...something that any good personal trainer is able to do, as well as identify the limitations a person may have that preclude them from doing those movements, and fixing them.

I will agree, for ME I believe physical therapy will be a better a job than back when I used to do personal training. But that is not the case for everyone. There are pros and cons to both jobs, and we should stop bashing the personal trainer field. Just my two cents.
 
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Whats up with the constant bashing of personal trainers on this forum?

There are plenty of personal trainers out there who know more when it comes to working with more athletic populations than some physical therapists who work in OP..... trainers like Eric Cressey, Mike Boyle to name a few, and im sure thousands of others who just arent as well known as the two I just mentioned. Ive noticed the same thing amongst some of my classmates...there are some who think that because they have spent 2+ years in PT school, that they automatically know more than a personal trainer when it comes to strength training and working with more athletic / able populations. Most PT schools dont teach you how to teach clients how to perform a proper deadlift, front or back squat (just a few examples)...something that any good personal trainer is able to do, as well as identify the limitations a person may have that preclude them from doing those movements, and fixing them.

I will agree, for ME I believe physical therapy will be a better a job than back when I used to do personal training. But that is not the case for everyone. There are pros and cons to both jobs, and we should stop bashing the personal trainer field. Just my two cents.
I have nothing to say about who knows more. Frankly, I don't care. All I know is that with PT you can work 9-5 and make $60,000 plus benefits and have a secure career. Few trainers get this. So that is enough for me to say that PT is a better job. For me.
 
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Whats up with the constant bashing of personal trainers on this forum?

There are plenty of personal trainers out there who know more when it comes to working with more athletic populations than some physical therapists who work in OP..... trainers like Eric Cressey, Mike Boyle to name a few, and im sure thousands of others who just arent as well known as the two I just mentioned. Ive noticed the same thing amongst some of my classmates...there are some who think that because they have spent 2+ years in PT school, that they automatically know more than a personal trainer when it comes to strength training and working with more athletic / able populations. Most PT schools dont teach you how to teach clients how to perform a proper deadlift, front or back squat (just a few examples)...something that any good personal trainer is able to do, as well as identify the limitations a person may have that preclude them from doing those movements, and fixing them.

I will agree, for ME I believe physical therapy will be a better a job than back when I used to do personal training. But that is not the case for everyone. There are pros and cons to both jobs, and we should stop bashing the personal trainer field. Just my two cents.

I have nothing against good trainers. And that's true that most PTs don't know squat about well...squats or deadlifts...but most of the trainers you see(not olympic style gyms or old school gyms) don't ever have their clients do them anyway. I don't like trainers because A) they always refer to themselves as PTs b)I see patients who got hurt while doing personal training; and c) once you become a PT and you eavesdrop/watch trainers "training" at say 24 hr fitness/xsport/la fitness, etc....it's laughable. It's more about how can I flirt with the hot guy/girl and sound like I know what I'm doing. So no...I don't dislike all trainers because frankly, they do know way more about deadlifts, proper squats, etc...it's just the vast majority of "economy" trainers give the good ones a bad name.
It's the same with PT. Lots of dip****s, and lots of good ones. But even the dip****s are pretty damn smart. And PT is not just OP, so career wise, much better future as you can do Acute/SNF/etc.
 
I agree, there is definitely a lot of bad trainers out there, and it is a shame that the bad ones ruin it for the ones that are doing a great job. All I am saying is that there are trainers from whom we can learn from, just as trainers can obviously learn from therapists.
 
Whats up with the constant bashing of personal trainers on this forum?
trainers like Eric Cressey, Mike Boyle to name a few, and im sure thousands of others who just arent as well known as the two I just mentioned.

I'm not bashing personal trainers. I'm saying it's not a good job. It's not reimbursed because it's a luxury. Most of the time a patient's goals are to look better, when really he just needs to clean up his diet. The necessary education to become a trainer is pitiful. For every Eric Cressey and Mike Boyle (they do have masters degrees BTW) there are 1,000 trainers who are living with two or three room mates and training clients 20-30 hours a week if they're lucky.

If you're going to make money, you have to spend money first.
 
Yes you likely "need to spend money first". However, a 65k pt salary with a 6figure debt from student loans, equates to a 33k salary after student loan payments with interest over 20yrs...that salary is attainable in many other careers. PT is a terrible bang for ur buck IF you r going to need more than 50k in student loans. Avg starting salary is around 60k and trending downwards due to medicare therapycap, and overall tougher reimbursement. I'd also argue that a lot of therapy is luxury service...PT isn't indicated nearly as much as some students think
 
Again, with that being said, if being a PT is only thing that will make u happy in life, just go in debt, get the degree and live responsibily to enjoy ur career and lifestyle
 
You can become a personal trainer in 2 weeks over the Internet. /thread
 
Im a NSCA-CPT, and worked full time as a trainer for a few years. Fun Job but not much financial security
 
Yes you likely "need to spend money first". However, a 65k pt salary with a 6figure debt from student loans, equates to a 33k salary after student loan payments with interest over 20yrs...that salary is attainable in many other careers. PT is a terrible bang for ur buck IF you r going to need more than 50k in student loans. Avg starting salary is around 60k and trending downwards due to medicare therapycap, and overall tougher reimbursement. I'd also argue that a lot of therapy is luxury service...PT isn't indicated nearly as much as some students think

Care to provide some context here? Perhaps an example or two where PT students may think treatment is indicated where you feel it is not?
 
Hi jesspt,

Stretching. Lack of evidence based medicine on its effectiveness. A 2week certified personal trainer stretches people. A 7yr dpt should not utilize this and say that it is science, b/c it just isn't.
 
I'd also argue that a lot of therapy is luxury service...PT isn't indicated nearly as much as some students think

I would say costly imaging, surgeries, and medicine are not indicated most of the time. PT saves money and time. Do you have any research that suggests that PT is a "luxury service"?
 
To the OP: "...10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain..." That's deep, yet very relative, just like a certain level of "comfort". I said this before, I haven't seen many PTs complain about feeding their families.

As for the other topic, we do have a lot of crossover with other professions for different reasons. Length of education is irrelevant when comparing knowledge in specialty; I agree. However, sometimes we confuse our focus and thus our purpose in the similar things we share with other professions. The way I look at it, PTs do more rehabilitation vs habilitation. There's a difference.
 
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I would say costly imaging, surgeries, and medicine are not indicated most of the time. PT saves money and time. Do you have any research that suggests that PT is a "luxury service"?

Ambulating across the parking lot safely and pain managed to go grocery shopping vs an iPhone 5S. The similarities are indistinguishable. So, you're saying that you didn't get that? Haha...

Anyways, jokes aside, I think he was referring more towards OP ortho and a specific subgroup of "clients" versus patients. And he probably used "a lot" relatively.
 
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Hi jesspt,

Stretching. Lack of evidence based medicine on its effectiveness. A 2week certified personal trainer stretches people. A 7yr dpt should not utilize this and say that it is science, b/c it just isn't.

Several points:

1. How are you determining effectiveness? Muscle length? Pain reduction? Return to sport? Injury prevention? I would agree with you that stretching is probably one of the most commonly overused PT interventions, but some evidence suggests it may have a role in conditions that present with significant ROM limitations such as adhesive capsulitis and plantar fascitis.

2. What makes you thinks that all of us are "stretching" patients? Haven't stretched a hamstring in probably over five years.

3. It doesn't lack evidence-based medicine. Evidence-based Medicine, as described by Sackett is "...the conscientious, explicit and judicious use of current best evidence in making decisions about the care of the individual patient. It means integrating individual clinical expertise with the best available external clinical evidence from systematic research." You can say that the use of stretching lacks evidence, or that the science behind it's use is lacking.
 
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Hi jesspt,

Stretching. Lack of evidence based medicine on its effectiveness. A 2week certified personal trainer stretches people. A 7yr dpt should not utilize this and say that it is science, b/c it just isn't.

Hey,

Just curious, are you saying that people are going to PTs and all they are doing is stretching them? What cases are you referring to where PT is not indicative?

I would agree that stretching inherently is not an effective treatment by itself. But what PT does that? Stretching can be extremely beneficial and necessary (all with evidence-based research) depending on the condition, but it should also be supplemented with other interventions. Does everyone need it? No. It is dependent on your patient. Do not compare DPTs with CPTs… they do not work with the same type of people.
 
@makingthejump seems like an angry personal trainer who couldn't make it in DPT school or med school so he/she does their best to discourage new applicants by making countless threads on student loans/debt. Enjoy your 20k personal trainer income, (at least you won't have any debt) with that "certificate".
 
Yes I am a pt who works along side many other pts. I see a ton of similarities in the interventions that cpts and dpts implement. I was just making it a point that one could argue a person who has the means like cash out of pocket to pay for therapy, likely uses it b/c "it makes them feel better", not that it is actually indicated...thus making it a luxury service. Obviously post-op patients r not luxury service, I'm discussing the patient population that the OP referred to in reference to the type of person that seeks personal training services
 
Who would you rather have treating your generalized lower extremity pain complaint... A DPT or an experienced CPT? The answer to that speaks for itself in that a 7yr DPT education does not mean squat. Its all about experience. A top notch CPT who has experience could implement an exercise/stretching/conditioning routine just as effectively as a recent graduated dpt. How does a profession go from being a CC certificate to a Doctorate in 25 yrs? It all comes down to money and is unfortunate b/c the salaries not adjusting for the change in degree are proof that the move all the way to doctorate is illegitimate.
 
Who would you rather have treating your generalized lower extremity pain complaint... A DPT or an experienced CPT? The answer to that speaks for itself in that a 7yr DPT education does not mean squat. Its all about experience. A top notch CPT who has experience could implement an exercise/stretching/conditioning routine just as effectively as a recent graduated dpt. How does a profession go from being a CC certificate to a Doctorate in 25 yrs? It all comes down to money and is unfortunate b/c the salaries not adjusting for the change in degree are proof that the move all the way to doctorate is illegitimate.

I think the doctorate is an inflated degree because it doesn't increase PT scope of practice. There are those who would disagree with me about that. Fine. I think it is also true that an experienced personal trainer could prescribe an exercise program probably better than most recent grads. But it is worthwhile to note that a DPT typically will write a plan of care that includes more than just ther ex - manual therapy and other interventions come to mind. So let's maybe refrain from implying that personal trainers can do the job of the physical therapist. These are separate vocations with a small of amount of overlap in the exercise department, but otherwise are pretty different. I am intentionally refraining from saying one job is "better" than the other (other than saying PT is a better fit for me personally). While we could sit and here and argue about that, what's the point?
 
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Yes I am a pt who works along side many other pts. I see a ton of similarities in the interventions that cpts and dpts implement. I was just making it a point that one could argue a person who has the means like cash out of pocket to pay for therapy, likely uses it b/c "it makes them feel better", not that it is actually indicated...thus making it a luxury service. Obviously post-op patients r not luxury service, I'm discussing the patient population that the OP referred to in reference to the type of person that seeks personal training services

But you said
I'd also argue that a lot of therapy is luxury service
(emphasis mine). Now if you're talking about cash-based patients, I'd argue that they make only a tiny fraction of most PTs outpatient orthopaedic caseload. Which, to my way of thinking, is far away from "a lot."

You also asked
Who would you rather have treating your generalized lower extremity pain complaint... A DPT or an experienced CPT?
Well, I'd rather have it be treated by a practitioner who does their best to practice science-based medicine. I suppose that could be a personal trainer, but it's not particularly likely. Not that they may not be bright enough to practice in this fashion, but their educational preparation does not provide them with the requisite knowledge base to critically appraise the relevant literature.

You keep arguing that the interventions we and personal trainers use are similar. I'd say that some of them may be identical. In the same fashion, an HVLA done by an osteopath or a chiropractor likely looks very similar to one done by a PT. It is not the interventions that we use that sets us apart from other professions which treat patients in pain. Rather, it is our ability to use Sackett's principles of evidenced-based medicine to examine the patient physically, determine their personal and societal biases about their condition in order to maximize the positive non-specific effects of the patient-therapist encounter, and to be aware of best available relevant research that allows us to best determine when to do what with the understanding that all interventions need to take into account the patient's beliefs and expectations. You don't sound like you understand this. At all.
 
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But you said (emphasis mine). Now if you're talking about cash-based patients, I'd argue that they make only a tiny fraction of most PTs outpatient orthopaedic caseload. Which, to my way of thinking, is far away from "a lot."

You also asked Well, I'd rather have it be treated by a practitioner who does their best to practice science-based medicine. I suppose that could be a personal trainer, but it's not particularly likely. Not that they may not be bright enough to practice in this fashion, but their educational preparation does not provide them with the requisite knowledge base to critically appraise the relevant literature.

You keep arguing that the interventions we and personal trainers use are similar. I'd say that some of them may be identical. In the same fashion, an HVLA done by an osteopath or a chiropractor likely looks very similar to one done by a PT. It is not the interventions that we use that sets us apart from other professions which treat patients in pain. Rather, it is our ability to use Sackett's principles of evidenced-based medicine to examine the patient physically, determine their personal and societal biases about their condition in order to maximize the positive non-specific effects of the patient-therapist encounter, and to be aware of best available relevant research that allows us to best determine when to do what with the understanding that all interventions need to take into account the patient's beliefs and expectations. You don't sound like you understand this. At all.

It's funny you should mention evidence-based practice in regards to PT and other professions. In my experience, good personal trainers are avid consumers of the latest strength and conditioning research and practice. They stay up to date and are constantly experimenting with new theories and techniques. By itself, the use of evidence does not necessarily separate good personal trainers from good physical therapists.
 
It's funny you should mention evidence-based practice in regards to PT and other professions. In my experience, good personal trainers are avid consumers of the latest strength and conditioning research and practice. They stay up to date and are constantly experimenting with new theories and techniques. By itself, the use of evidence does not necessarily separate good personal trainers from good physical therapists.


So you're saying that you think the average personal trainer can critically appraise a research article using an understanding of statistics and then apply that to their practice?

Consuming the latest strength and conditioning research is just reading unless you are determining if the research itself is worthwhile. It has been my experience in talking to most personal trainers that they are very good at reading about the latest fads, but can't talk about hierarchy of evidence, etc.
 
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So you're saying that you think the average personal trainer can critically appraise a research article using an understanding of statistics and then apply that to their practice?

Consuming the latest strength and conditioning research is just reading unless you are determining if the research itself is worthwhile. It has been my experience in talking to most personal trainers that they are very good at reading about the latest fads, but can't talk about hierarchy of evidence, etc.
Yes.
 
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Important distinction between "good" personal trainer and the "average" personal trainer. The good one will stay on top of the latest research as well as be able to practice critical appraisal. The average one wont. Average personal trainers bring us PTs more clients because they hurt their clients doing something dumb...good personal trainers I believe should be viewed as colleagues and someone we should not be afraid to refer our patients to who want to continue to improve their health and fitness.
 
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JessPT, I am just curious..at your place of work what can you offer to the patient / client who simply wants to improve their health and fitness? Do you have a fitness center / gym in your place of work which can be freely accessed by people who are not actively receiving care?
 
But you said (emphasis mine). Now if you're talking about cash-based patients, I'd argue that they make only a tiny fraction of most PTs outpatient orthopaedic caseload. Which, to my way of thinking, is far away from "a lot."

You also asked Well, I'd rather have it be treated by a practitioner who does their best to practice science-based medicine. I suppose that could be a personal trainer, but it's not particularly likely. Not that they may not be bright enough to practice in this fashion, but their educational preparation does not provide them with the requisite knowledge base to critically appraise the relevant literature.

You keep arguing that the interventions we and personal trainers use are similar. I'd say that some of them may be identical. In the same fashion, an HVLA done by an osteopath or a chiropractor likely looks very similar to one done by a PT. It is not the interventions that we use that sets us apart from other professions which treat patients in pain. Rather, it is our ability to use Sackett's principles of evidenced-based medicine to examine the patient physically, determine their personal and societal biases about their condition in order to maximize the positive non-specific effects of the patient-therapist encounter, and to be aware of best available relevant research that allows us to best determine when to do what with the understanding that all interventions need to take into account the patient's beliefs and expectations. You don't sound like you understand this. At all.
:thumbup: Like a boss

PT's are clinician's that go thru real schooling. Personal trainers are infomercial cheerleaders.
 
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In my experience, good personal trainers are avid consumers of the latest strength and conditioning research and practice. They stay up to date and are constantly experimenting with new theories and techniques. By itself, the use of evidence does not necessarily separate good personal trainers from good physical therapists.

In my experience the vast majority of trainers do not consume any information, except maybe Men's Health and bodybuilding.com. Most trainers are not trained to produce, consume, interpret, or apply critical research. There are a few good ones (Santana, Boyle, Staley) but they are the exception.

What separates PTs from personal trainers is the ability to understand, diagnose, and treat various pathologies. If you have LBP, a HNP, CTS, adhesive capsulitis, etc. who are you going to see? A trainer? PTs are movement specialists while trainers are focused primarily on strength and conditioning.
 
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Well, this escalated quickly.
 
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