PI won't co-sign.

[BlueElmo]

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hey guys, so I started working in ths lab couple months ago and I asked my grad student for a letter and if PI can co-sign it. Well, the PI is really really strict and he's bit of an ass towards undergrads in general, so he won't co-sign it. He said I haven't worked long enough. He will sign it only after I worked this entire summer, and by then it will be too late for this app cycle.

Do you guys think it's okay if my grad student just signs it? She said she will write a good one but obviously it doesn't have that "authenticity" factor without a PhD signature. Is it worth it to send it in?😕

 

[Dr Lyss]

I think it might look a little questionable. I would just drop this LOR and get another one. I have to agree with your PI tho... even if he did sign it, he really wouldn't have much to say if you've only been there for 2 months!

 

[BlueElmo]

I think it might look a little questionable. I would just drop this LOR and get another one. I have to agree with your PI tho... even if he did sign it, he really wouldn't have much to say if you've only been there for 2 months!

I 'm kind of short on letters, and I really wanted a research letter. It's been 2 months, but I formed a pretty good relationship with the grad student and she seems willing to write a good one. I've been coming in pretty religiously. If the PI would only sign it too, I'm sure it's not that hard....🙁

 

[witness23]

is the grad student a PhD grad student, or do you mean a post-doc?

 

[BlueElmo]

is the grad student a PhD grad student, or do you mean a post-doc?

no, she's a PhD grad student, 3rd year going to be 4th year on a 6 year program.

 

[bigman225]

I think you need to seriously consider finding another LoR. A research letter from a PhD student is comparable to a classroom performance letter from a TA.

 

[scarletgirl777]

hey guys, so I started working in ths lab couple months ago and I asked my grad student for a letter and if PI can co-sign it. Well, the PI is really really strict and he's bit of an ass towards undergrads in general, so he won't co-sign it. He said I haven't worked long enough. He will sign it only after I worked this entire summer, and by then it will be too late for this app cycle.

Do you guys think it's okay if my grad student just signs it? She said she will write a good one but obviously it doesn't have that "authenticity" factor without a PhD signature. Is it worth it to send it in?😕

Unfortunately, without his cosignature this letter would not be considered a faculty letter. Maybe you can use it later if you get a waitlist from a school...

 

[witness23]

maybe you can work your *** off until July and hit him up then? You can interfolio it then to research heavy schools if you must.

 

[Appless]

w/o the PI cosignature the letter is honestly useless blue sorry🙁. Most schools wouldnt even count the letter as anything since its basically only from a TA in their minds. Youre gonna have to find a new letter or after the summer is over you could always send that LOR as an update letter, which might not be a bad thing either.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I am in a similar situation. From what I gathered you don't need to have your letters ALL in until your all complete, or after you are done with secondaries. I will be turning in my last letter from my new PI around early August, you should probably do the same thing.

Use interfolio, it will be faster. I am using a letter from a graduate student but I am using it on top of the other letters that are required, purely as a character letter.

 

[witness23]

well, you kinda need your letters in for your secondary to be "complete"

 

[BlueElmo]

is the grad student a PhD grad student, or do you mean a post-doc?

darn, foiled. Thanks for the responses.

How about if I can get a PhD post-doc who works in the lab to co-sign it? Would that be okay?

 

[tiedyeddog]

well, you kinda need your letters in for your secondary to be "complete"

Right, just trying to get at that you don't need them for the primary.

 

[tiedyeddog]

darn, foiled. Thanks for the responses.

How about if I can get a PhD post-doc who works in the lab to co-sign it? Would that be okay?

My old PI told me that a Post-doc letter is just a smigdeon better than a grad student letter. Both are far below a faculty letter.

 

[witness23]

post doc cosigning something just doesn't make sense to me. IDK.


its tough because most labs have post docs run almost all of the experiments and the planning. depending on how big your lab is, your PI might not even communicate (daily basis) with the post docs. It makes sense for an undergrad to work under a post doc (w/ a PhD) to me. However, post-doc cosigning a phd, seems weird. idk thats just me

 

[BlueElmo]

post doc cosigning something just doesn't make sense to me. IDK.


its tough because most labs have post docs run almost all of the experiments and the planning. depending on how big your lab is, your PI might not even communicate (daily basis) with the post docs. It makes sense for an undergrad to work under a post doc (w/ a PhD) to me. However, post-doc cosigning a phd, seems weird. idk thats just me

no i mean my grad student and post-doc PhD both sign it. The PI doesn't sign it. how would that look?

 

[tiedyeddog]

no i mean my grad student and post-doc PhD both sign it. The PI doesn't sign it. how would that look?

I don't think it really changes much. You should do it anyway and then update with the PI letter later.

 

[alwaysaangel]

When I applied I had a TA write my non-sci letter and the prof was supposed to co-sign but didn't. I was really freaked but 3 different schools that required "senior professor" letters for non-science classes gave me interviews so it obviously didn't matter that much.

However, you're talking about an extra LOR which in some ways are more valuable than class LORs because its usually something you spent more time in and they know you more in depth than a professor. But I don't think the issue is that your PI isn't goign to sign it, I think the MUCH BIGGER issue is that you're getting an LOR from somethign that you've only been doing for 2 months. Good relationship or not, I wouldn't give that LOR much weight.

Forget this LOR, between the short time and the lack of cosignature its useless. Find something you've been doing longer and get an LOR for that and chalk it up to experience. When you apply for residency you'll know to start relationships sooner than 2 months before applications cycle.

 

[VMSmith]

Grad student letter is pretty much worthless.

Start your app with other LoRs, then whenever you finish the summer research thing ask the PI for an LoR. You can send it to all the schools as an update.

 

[BlueElmo]

When I applied I had a TA write my non-sci letter and the prof was supposed to co-sign but didn't. I was really freaked but 3 different schools that required "senior professor" letters for non-science classes gave me interviews so it obviously didn't matter that much.

However, you're talking about an extra LOR which in some ways are more valuable than class LORs because its usually something you spent more time in and they know you more in depth than a professor. But I don't think the issue is that your PI isn't goign to sign it, I think the MUCH BIGGER issue is that you're getting an LOR from somethign that you've only been doing for 2 months. Good relationship or not, I wouldn't give that LOR much weight.

Forget this LOR, between the short time and the lack of cosignature its useless. Find something you've been doing longer and get an LOR for that and chalk it up to experience. When you apply for residency you'll know to start relationships sooner than 2 months before applications cycle.

She wrote a rough draft of it already, and it's actually quite good. It's been two months, but she spins it in ways that makes it sound like I'm really mature, intelligent, responsible, and all that good stuff.
I really want that it, but it comes from a grad student. :sigh:

 

[nick_carraway]

She wrote a rough draft of it already, and it's actually quite good. It's been two months, but she spins it in ways that makes it sound like I'm really mature, intelligent, responsible, and all that good stuff.
I really want that it, but it comes from a grad student. :sigh:

Can you ask the grad student to ask the PI to cosign it? The request might be taken more seriously if he already knows a letter has been written.

 

[alwaysaangel]

She wrote a rough draft of it already, and it's actually quite good. It's been two months, but she spins it in ways that makes it sound like I'm really mature, intelligent, responsible, and all that good stuff.
I really want that it, but it comes from a grad student. :sigh:

It doesn't matter how nice it sounds. Time isn't an issue on the writers end, its an issue on the adcomms' end. A huge part of what adcomms use letters of rec for is verification of your activities and to get a sense of your interaction with people in those activities.

They'll see you did research for 2 months and see the corresponding LOR and it becomes worth very little.

 

[BlueElmo]

Can you ask the grad student to ask the PI to cosign it? The request might be taken more seriously if he already knows a letter has been written.

I asked grad student to ask the PI. He said no.

 

[BlueElmo]

It doesn't matter how nice it sounds. Time isn't an issue on the writers end, its an issue on the adcomms' end. A huge part of what adcomms use letters of rec for is verification of your activities and to get a sense of your interaction with people in those activities.

They'll see you did research for 2 months and see the corresponding LOR and it becomes worth very little.

I don't know. My faculty letter is from a professor whom I have taken class with for 2 whole academic semesters, so I've known him for quite a while. But his letter is nowhere as good as this one.

 

[nick_carraway]

Wait, wait, wait. Idea!

Why don't you just send it in anyway? It sounds like it's more for your benefit than to satisfy any requirement from the schools.

It's a good letter and if you don't have too many letters already, why not send it in anyway?

 

[BlueElmo]

Wait, wait, wait. Idea!

Why don't you just send it in anyway? It sounds like it's more for your benefit than to satisfy any requirement from the schools.

It's a good letter and if you don't have too many letters already, why not send it in anyway?

But I mean, sure they will take it. But I'm saying will they even look at it without a PI signature?

 

[witness23]

signature is usually not the first thing I read in a letter, I dont know about others.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I don't know. My faculty letter is from a professor whom I have taken class with for 2 whole academic semesters, so I've known him for quite a while. But his letter is nowhere as good as this one.

Ultimately you're going to do what you want but I really think a letter from somewhere you WORKED with for 1 year even if its like a grocery store would be worth WAY more than this letter.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Adcomms are very good at sniffing out BS because applications are full of it. Students write BS, professors write BS, so they look for whats real and whats not.

A super great letter from someone you've know for 2 months REEKS of BS. Good or not, they're going to ignore it because from a common sense point of view there is no way someone who knew you for 2 months knew you that well. So it may sound super nice but they're going to chalk it up to good writing and assume the person couldn't know you that well. The fact that its a grad student exacerbates the time issue because basically its a fellow student who knows what a good letter sounds like and wrote it for you just because you asked. The letter is practically worthless in the eyes of an adcom.

Compare that to a letter that says many nice things about you but maybe isn't written super well from a boss you had for 2 years (even if its not research, not a doctor, whatever) - that has WAY more value because that person probably actually knew you and worked with you for a long period of time.

 

[medking]

I don't know. My faculty letter is from a professor whom I have taken class with for 2 whole academic semesters, so I've known him for quite a while. But his letter is nowhere as good as this one.

I find it interesting that you have had access to these letters 😉

 

[BlueElmo]

Wait, wait, wait. Idea!

Why don't you just send it in anyway? It sounds like it's more for your benefit than to satisfy any requirement from the schools.

It's a good letter and if you don't have too many letters already, why not send it in anyway?

signature is usually not the first thing I read in a letter, I dont know about others.

Hmmmm, maybe I should send it in without PI signature.

 

[BlueElmo]

I find it interesting that you have had access to these letters 😉

He let me read it before he sent it in.

 

[Beta Cell]

I think it might look a little questionable. I would just drop this LOR and get another one. I have to agree with your PI tho... even if he did sign it, he really wouldn't have much to say if you've only been there for 2 months!

If he's doing say 40 hours/week @ 2 months, that's 320 hours. 14 wks/ semester* 2 semesters* 10 hrs/week= 280 hours. It's possible to gain more experience in 2 months at a lab than most people do in a full academic year, though.

 

[BlueElmo]

If he's doing say 40 hours/week @ 2 months, that's 320 hours. 14 wks/ semester* 2 semesters* 10 hrs/week= 280 hours. It's possible to gain more experience in 2 months at a lab than most people do in a full academic year, though.

Yeah, it's been 35 hours a week, actually. Like I said above, I've been coming in religiously. That's why I formed a pretty good relationship with the grad student.

 

[witness23]

if you do full time in a lab (your own project including cultures - a 9 AM to 7 PM job x 5 with a weekend visit for me), its a long %%% time. However, I guess it wasn't long enough (giggle) for the PI

 

[witness23]

i guess your PI just doesn't want you to bounce after you cop the LOR

 

[bunnity]

I think the above posters are generally correct that a LOR from someone who hasn't known you that long can be a little sketchy. But I don't think it's quite as extreme as some are making it out to be. I think if you had that letter as well as similarly positive ones from people that have known you longer it would be OK. The vet that wrote a LOR for me had only known me 3-4 months but I had racked up about 200 hours (unpaid vet tech basically) AND I had a LOR from my boss at work where I had worked for 3.5 years.

Can you send in your app with the number of required LORs now, and then add this one in later, at the end of the summer? I am not really familiar with secondaries for med school because they work differently for vet school, but would the above be possible?

 

[Doodledog]

I am a PI (not YOUR PI), but a PI. I write a lot of these letters. If I were to learn that after I had refused to write a letter for an undergrad, a grad student or anyone in my lab had written a letter without my permission, I would not be happy. Why? Because the letter may be perceived as coming from my lab and because I would feel as if my wishes in this regard had been ignored. Sorry, but lab letters should come from the PI, or his/her designee, not grad students or post-docs, unless specifically designated for this task by the PI. This is just how it works.

A letter from a PI reflects not just upon the hours worked, but upon the length of time served, the outcome of the research and the ultimate interpretation of the data. I don't know anything about your PI, and I do write letters all the time for summer students who've only worked for 2 months, since I know that is all the time they have, but he/she is well within their rights to not write such a letter.

I strongly encourage you to not submit the grad student letter and drop this line of trying to get a letter. As noted, it can serve as a f/u later in the process.

As always, just my advice, and you are welcome to ignore it. I do not speak for any other PI's.

 

[sleepy425]

I don't think it would be that bad for you to wait until the end of the summer. I wasn't complete at most schools until late September, and it didn't hurt me at all. Near the end of July, you might want to ask the grad student to try to get the PI to sign the letter again. This way, you wouldn't have to wait until the end of the summer, but you would have been working for most of the summer, so your chances of getting him to say yes will be much better.

 

[sleepy425]

I am a PI (not YOUR PI), but a PI. I write a lot of these letters. If I were to learn that after I had refused to write a letter for an undergrad, a grad student or anyone in my lab had written a letter without my permission, I would not be happy. Why? Because the letter may be perceived as coming from my lab and because I would feel as if my wishes in this regard had been ignored. Sorry, but lab letters should come from the PI, or his/her designee, not grad students or post-docs, unless specifically designated for this task by the PI. This is just how it works.

A letter from a PI reflects not just upon the hours worked, but upon the length of time served, the outcome of the research and the ultimate interpretation of the data. I don't know anything about your PI, and I do write letters all the time for summer students who've only worked for 2 months, since I know that is all the time they have, but he/she is well within their rights to not write such a letter.

I strongly encourage you to not submit the grad student letter and drop this line of trying to get a letter. As noted, it can serve as a f/u later in the process.

As always, just my advice, and you are welcome to ignore it. I do not speak for any other PI's.

This is a good point too. Definitely don't submit the letter if the PI is not ok with the grad student writing the letter without his/her signature.

 

[scarletgirl777]

quick question since it's on the topic - what if a grad student was your professor for the course (not TA)? some of my courses here are handled like that and i was going to ask one for a LoR.

The "professor?" Did they write the curriculum, organize the scheduling? I have heard of graduate students leading the small group in a class that's entirely the small group, but there's usually still a faculty member who is the "course director" who does all the organizing, and THAT person is the pseudo "professor."

 

[scarletgirl777]

Yeah, it's been 35 hours a week, actually. Like I said above, I've been coming in religiously. That's why I formed a pretty good relationship with the grad student.

Well, I think 35 hours a week for 2 months is enough to know someone, but I guess your PI doesn't agree 🙁 If you really want this letter and it's all ready to go, especially if you have no other research letter and you are applying to research heavy schools, I would ask the PI again for a cosignature in late July, explaining the letter has to be received by the end of July to be helpful to you in the process. Better yet, I would say that now, and if the PI says no, I would cut my losses unless a waitlist were to happen later down the line.

 

[witness23]

i would follow Tildy's advice. If you need a letter for CCLCM or something, just add it later.

 

[bunnity]

The "professor?" Did they write the curriculum, organize the scheduling? I have heard of graduate students leading the small group in a class that's entirely the small group, but there's usually still a faculty member who is the "course director" who does all the organizing, and THAT person is the pseudo "professor."

I've had several classes taught by a grad student who wrote the curriculum, schedule, and taught the entire class with no other professor around. They were actually pretty good classes.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Working over the summer doesn't mean you have to wait until September, does it? I don't see the problem with continuing in the lab until the end of July/beginning of August and then getting the sig then. If the letter is already written, then the sig really should just be a quick thing and you'll be complete at your schools by mid-August, which is super early. Most schools don't even send secondaries until mid to late July.

 

[kac714]

I've had several classes taught by a grad student who wrote the curriculum, schedule, and taught the entire class with no other professor around. They were actually pretty good classes.

one of my letters was from such a prof- it was fine.

 

[plsletmein]

make sure the letter is written by the end of july, go above and beyond in lab between now and early august, making sure he sees you around, and then ask him to co-sign it. if he refuses at that point, just submit it as is (of course have 2 other sci faculty, 1 nonsci faculty already set)

 

[pietachok]

I don't think you need him to write the letter until the end of summer anyhow! It takes a bit of time for AMCAS to process primaries and then for you to get and complete 2ndaries. If the end of summer means you can have every app complete w/ his letter by the last day of August, you have no problems. IMO

 

[RoadRunner17]

-Find a replacement letter of some sort, maybe another science or humanities or volunteering letter, whatever you decide your app needs.
-Submit primary AMCAS application to all schools
-Fill out secondaries when you can
-Send in the other letters + replacement letter to the schools that don't require research letters. At this point you will be marked complete for these schools
-When you do get the research letter at the end of the summer, submit letters to the schools that require them (CCLCM, Harvard, etc.) and you'll be complete then.. hopefully in late August-early September - not too bad

Not ideal but if you want that research letter this is probably the way to do it.