PI won’t write letter of rec

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I had a fine PI, but life isn't always fair and PI's have the potential to throw huge wrenches in plans. I knew a PI that gave someone I knew a "C" for a research grade. They can be immature too.
 
medschoolplz88 said:
The post doc told me that he said “I hear you’ve lost [my name]. I guess that’s one less letter for me to write” He said something of that accord which is surprising since I didn’t tell him I was leaving. Just that I had considered it and wanted his opinion!

You are right though. I guess it’s not 100 percent certain. I do plan on meeting with him and mentioning that I heard this (along with officially telling him I’m leaving) and I will ask for him to reconsider based on the time I have given him.
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When I was collecting letters, I actually got ghosted by one professor whom I thought would definitely write me a great one. It was unbelievably frustrating. I tried for weeks to get in touch with him, but he wouldn’t reply to emails or anything. It would have been nice (and painless) for him to at least say “no, sorry” instead of just ignoring me. Eventually, I let it go and got a letter from another professor. I figured I didn’t want a letter from someone who didn’t want to write me one anyway, and, fortunately, it all worked in the end.
 
Eeek. I’m sorry this happened to you. I don’t want to make it your fault (it really does not sound like it is) but you have to be really careful not to step on feet early in your career. If a lesson is to be learned, I’d think that is it. I say this because his lake of a letter compels you to question the switch. Regardless, I don’t think you did anything wrong.

With that. Your conclusion your PI won’t write you a good letter is hearsay. A face to face is necessary. Weigh the labs productivity, your happiness, and your best notion of the other labs productivity in your decision on leaving.

Either way, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I think you’ll be fine!

Do keep us updated. I would like to learn more from your situation, as I’m sure I’ll be in similar one myself down the road. [emoji5]


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freedoctor17 said:
Wouldn't MD PhD programs want a research related letter? Or is that just another false premed advisor claim.
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Good question. I can only advise on the MD or DOP track. OP didn't mention anything about wanting MD/phD.

But allow me to share an insight with you. When I was applying for NIH post-doctoral training grants, there was no requirement for a LOR from one graduate PI. That's because people realize that not everyone has a great relationship with their PIs.

I also agree that the OP needs to hear this from the PI himself. And at this point, since the bridges appear to have been burned, I worry that the PI will write a bad LOR, or simply refuse to write one.
 
Goro said:
Good question. I can only advise on the MD or DOP track. OP didn't mention anything about wanting MD/phD.

But allow me to share an insight with you. When I was applying for NIH post-doctoral training grants, there was no requirement for a LOR from one graduate PI. That's because people realize that not everyone has a great relationship with their PIs.

I also agree that the OP needs to hear this from the PI himself. And at this point, since the bridges appear to have been burned, I worry that the PI will write a bad LOR, or simply refuse to write one.
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Goro,

With a bit of common sense and good social intuition, would it hurt to ask and see a reaction? He is not compelled to submit any letter. You said “appear”. Hearsay is hearsay. No one wants years of work and a good relationship to die.


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MCATISEZ said:
Goro,

With a bit of common sense and good social intuition, would it hurt to ask and see a reaction? He is not compelled to submit any letter. You said “appear”. Hearsay is hearsay. No one wants years of work and a good relationship to die.


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Did you not see that I wrote: "I also agree that the OP needs to hear this from the PI himself. "
???
 
Goro said:
Did you not see that I wrote: "I also agree that the OP needs to hear this from the PI himself. "
???
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I did not see that. I just got ahead of myself because this situation seems so frustrating! Sorry🙁

I’m not sure it’s right to assume anything from a third party though. Perhaps that’s just me :/


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Thank you all for the replies.... it is hearsay at this point and one of my premed friends thinks I’m overreacting and he’ll still write a letter in the end, which is definitely possible and what I hope for! On the other hand, he is a competitive guy and I’m worried I totally offended him. Honestly not sure how, I tried to act in the most respectful way regarding the matter. Haha I guess I’m almost a bit flattered he got so flustered by this. My opinion going to the convo was that he runs a big lab and won’t really care if an undergrad leaves because he’s got bigger fish to fry.

Am I being crazy? I feel like undergrad lab switches are a pretty common thing.... first time I’ve ever done one at least.

Anyways, I’ll probably meet him sometime next week. Maybe it was an emotional reaction and some time will help.
 
medschoolplz88 said:
Thank you all for the replies.... it is hearsay at this point and one of my premed friends thinks I’m overreacting and he’ll still write a letter in the end, which is definitely possible and what I hope for! On the other hand, he is a competitive guy and I’m worried I totally offended him. Honestly not sure how, I tried to act in the most respectful way regarding the matter. Haha I guess I’m almost a bit flattered he got so flustered by this. My opinion going to the convo was that he runs a big lab and won’t really care if an undergrad leaves because he’s got bigger fish to fry.

Am I being crazy? I feel like undergrad lab switches are a pretty common thing.... first time I’ve ever done one at least.

Anyways, I’ll probably meet him sometime next week. Maybe it was an emotional reaction and some time will help.
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With his attitude, I would probably just let it slide and not ask him for a letter at all. If he's that petty, there's the real risk that he won't write you a good one. A bad letter would be worse than no letter at all.

If he does agree to write one, I'd ask if he'd let you see a copy of it. If he doesn't, I personally would not use it.

Go ahead and switch labs. If you start now, you could have six months of experience in the new lab before applying, at which point the PI may know you well enough to write a good letter.
 
Goro said:
Good question. I can only advise on the MD or DOP track. OP didn't mention anything about wanting MD/phD.

But allow me to share an insight with you. When I was applying for NIH post-doctoral training grants, there was no requirement for a LOR from one graduate PI. That's because people realize that not everyone has a great relationship with their PIs.

I also agree that the OP needs to hear this from the PI himself. And at this point, since the bridges appear to have been burned, I worry that the PI will write a bad LOR, or simply refuse to write one.
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Actually at the end they said as "as someone who is considering an MD/PhD" lol but that's good to know that it's not too important regardless. I thought I had a good relationship with the people in my lab but recently feels a little strained so I wouldn't feel comfortable asking anyone for a letter (PI is great but don't know him that well as he's not there too often).
 
Applying MDPHD, not having a letter from a PI you worked with for 2 years and have publications with is a HUGE red flag sign (someone who is successful this cycle applying MDPHD). This is from talking to several ADCOMs regarding not being able to get letter from a summer research experience. You need to talk to your PI and ask about the letter, and if he ask no, have a conversation with him about why not. If he is willing to write you one if you stay, I high recommend you stick it out because you are applying this cycle. Learning new technique is not with it. I also recommend asking this in the MDPHD forum, research LOR is held to the same level of importance as stats in MDPHD applications.
 
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Your PI behaves extremely unprofessional. I’d initially have thought about his human qualities and just out of principle would not have worked in his lab
 
Everyone saying they sound unprofessional, you guys must have amazing labs. Some of the grad students/post docs in my lab sound exactly like this PI, petty.

I'd understand if he felt that way after training you for a semester and then you just up and leave but after 2 years it's ridiculous. I've had a similar issue in mine but on a smaller scale and pretty sure I blew my chances of a good rec letter for now.
 
DaddyCool said:
Your PI behaves extremely unprofessional. I’d initially have thought about his human qualities and just out of principle would not have worked in his lab
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Academic science is more politics than anything else these days. If your PI is a big name, it will get you places regardless what they’re actually like.
 
bigbite said:
Can the post doc write your letter and have your PI sign off on it?????
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That’s what happens most of the time if you’re not directly working with the PI. The OP’s situation seems to be that the PI might not want to sign off.
 
medschoolplz88 said:
The post doc told me that he said “I hear you’ve lost [my name]. I guess that’s one less letter for me to write” He said something of that accord which is surprising since I didn’t tell him I was leaving. Just that I had considered it and wanted his opinion!

You are right though. I guess it’s not 100 percent certain. I do plan on meeting with him and mentioning that I heard this (along with officially telling him I’m leaving) and I will ask for him to reconsider based on the time I have given him.
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You should ask him directly. DO NOT mention that you overheard him telling the post-doc he might not write one. Just go in and ask nicely if he would be willing to write you a strong LOR. One possibility I see is that he is not super familiar with the med school admissions process and thinks that if you leave, you won’t want or need a letter from someone whose lab you are not currently working in.
 
freedoctor17 said:
Actually at the end they said as "as someone who is considering an MD/PhD" lol but that's good to know that it's not too important regardless. I thought I had a good relationship with the people in my lab but recently feels a little strained so I wouldn't feel comfortable asking anyone for a letter (PI is great but don't know him that well as he's not there too often).
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Ooopps, my bad and my apologies
 
Microbug said:
Applying MDPHD, not having a letter from a PI you worked with for 2 years and have publications with is a HUGE red flag sign (someone who is successful this cycle applying MDPHD). This is from talking to several ADCOMs regarding not being able to get letter from a summer research experience. You need to talk to your PI and ask about the letter, and if he ask no, have a conversation with him about why not. If he is willing to write you one if you stay, I high recommend you stick it out because you are applying this cycle. Learning new technique is not with it. I also recommend asking this in the MDPHD forum, research LOR is held to the same level of importance as stats in MDPHD applications.
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What worries me about the situation is that even if the OP can get a letter, will it be a good one?

OP we'll need to ask can he get a good letter of recommendation for his application to medical school?

And to add an edit, I would also be pissed off if my student of 2 years suddenly decided to switch to the lab of my competitor.

Just because scientists may be smart people, it doesn't mean that they are not human beings, and subject to the foibles we all have.
 
Goro said:
What worries me about the situation is that even if the OP can get a letter, will it be a good one?

OP we'll need to ask can he get a good letter of recommendation for his application to medical school?

And to add an edit, I would also be pissed off if my student of 2 years suddenly decided to switch to the lab of my competitor.

Just because scientists may be smart people, it doesn't mean that they are not human beings, and subject to the foibles we all have.
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yeah even when people left our lab just to finish, postdocs never took it well.
it's a sizable investment at least thats how they see it and i think it goes both ways. so being human I could see it.
if OP worked with a grad student or postdoc maybe that would be better. thats what I did, I Got one from my postdoc and PI because they would be different letters (postdoc alot more personal and he has seen me grow) and PI can attest to the work that I have done and the "quality".

i valued the postdoc letter higher, even though the PI was a big name. personal is better anyway. not sure on your relationship with your postdoc or grad student though

edit-->microbug just corrected me apparently you need to have a PI sign off or its meaningless to have a letter
 
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As someone that has had friends with bad PIs and bad research experiences...

Solution:
OP walks into his PI's office and point blank (though in a nice way obviously lol) asks him if he is "willing to write a strong letter of recommendation for my application to medical school." Add some flattery in there about how much you have learned in his lab and from the research and how much you have enjoyed working with him and your post-doc/grad student and etc. PI's love talking about research, and how important their own research is (not saying this in a disrespectful way). At this point, see how he responds verbally and his body language. If he hesitates or anything similar, you have got yourself a problem. For MD/PhD, you are practically required to have that LoR considering you published under that lab and he happens to be a Nobel Laureate. In such a case, you can sit down with him and have an honest conversation about what happened and what the issues are. Worst case you can offer him a scenario where your post-doc writes it and all he has to do is sign it.

And you can always twist the leaving for another lab thing in a MD/PhD admissions kinda way. Tell him that they encourage having multiple LoRs from different PIs and encourage multiple research experiences which you are trying to do by checking out another lab. There is a chance that your original conversation about leaving the lab ticked him off in a bad and personal way.

And at the end of the day, all of this could simply be a misunderstanding. As another poster mentioned, your PI might have just thought that you would no longer ask him for a LoR because you are leaving the lab. If you ask him point blank for a strong letter, I think there is a good chance he will say yes and things will be fine.
 
Try just getting a strong letter from a grad student or a postdoc, sometimes PIs are simply too busy to care
 
medschoolplz88 said:
Yep that’s what I’m hoping for! I’ll probably mention that I would like to switch labs for x y and z reasons. But that I really enjoyed the experience in his lab. Then I will ask if he would still write me a strong LoR for this coming cycle. Like you guys said maybe I should not mention any hearsay. Sound good?

My only concern is that that makes him more angry and makes him feel more validated in his position.
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Yea definitely do not bring up that you had heard something from someone else. I would do it exactly as the person you quoted says. Don’t go off about this long thing why you wanted to leave his lab before asking. Simply tell him you want MD/Phd, loved working in his lab and was hoping a letter from him could assist your achieving this dream.
 
If you/the postdoc overheard him say "I guess its one less LOR I have to write" how do you know that meant he did not want to write one anymore? What if he thinks you don't want him to write one anymore if your moving labs and was annoyed at the moving part??

I have no idea but maybe he isn't being mean and you actually just need to talk to him and not play guessing games
 
manohman said:
yeah even when people left our lab just to finish, postdocs never took it well.
it's a sizable investment at least thats how they see it and i think it goes both ways. so being human I could see it.
if OP worked with a grad student or postdoc maybe that would be better. thats what I did, I Got one from my postdoc and PI because they would be different letters (postdoc alot more personal and he has seen me grow) and PI can attest to the work that I have done and the "quality".

i valued the postdoc letter higher, even though the PI was a big name. personal is better anyway. not sure on your relationship with your postdoc or grad student though

edit--> just saw that OP is applying MD PHD. not as familiar with MD PHD but a strong mentor letter > bad PI letter right? gotta hedge your bets on your best odds and move forward!
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no. for MD/PhD, a mentor letter is meaningless and not acceptable without PI signing off. You can get the letter from post-doc, but the PI must sign off on it.
 
Microbug said:
no. for MD/PhD, a mentor letter is meaningless and not acceptable without PI signing off. You can get the letter from post-doc, but the PI must sign off on it.
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oh wow didnt know that was a hard requirement for md phd. i stand corrected.
 
Goro said:
What worries me about the situation is that even if the OP can get a letter, will it be a good one?

OP we'll need to ask can he get a good letter of recommendation for his application to medical school?

And to add an edit, I would also be pissed off if my student of 2 years suddenly decided to switch to the lab of my competitor.

Just because scientists may be smart people, it doesn't mean that they are not human beings, and subject to the foibles we all have.
Click to expand...
I think OP needs to ask his PI if he will write him a strong letter. Or have the post-doc write the letter and ask if the PI is willing to sign off on it. Schools not only want letter, they absolutely REQUIRE PI letters. It is also not uncommon for schools to require letters from every single significant research experience. I ran into problem with this because I did not get a letter from one of my summer research PI (2 months), but fortunately for me, this was freshmen year summer so I explained it as "it was a summer experience 3 years ago, since then I have these 3 other PI letters." Given that OP worked with this PI for 2 years and has publication, it would be a huge red flag if he doesn't have letter and will undoubtedly be asked this question numerous times during interview (if he even gets them). You can't exactly bad mouth anyone during interview so I don't see how OP can explain this away in good light. I would recommend he try to repair relationship with PI in any way possible if he wants a shot at MDPHD, otherwise you need a legitimately good story to explain it, and the story can't be that your PI is a jerk.
 
Microbug said:
I think OP needs to ask his PI if he will write him a strong letter. Or have the post-doc write the letter and ask if the PI is willing to sign off on it. Schools not only want letter, they absolutely REQUIRE PI letters. It is also not uncommon for schools to require letters from every single significant research experience. I ran into problem with this because I did not get a letter from one of my summer research PI (2 months), but fortunately for me, this was freshmen year summer so I explained it as "it was a summer experience 3 years ago, since then I have these 3 other PI letters." Given that OP worked with this PI for 2 years and has publication, it would be a huge red flag if he doesn't have letter and will undoubtedly be asked this question numerous times during interview (if he even gets them). You can't exactly bad mouth anyone during interview so I don't see how OP can explain this away in good light. I would recommend he try to repair relationship with PI in any way possible if he wants a shot at MDPHD, otherwise you need a legitimately good story to explain it, and the story can't be that your PI is a jerk.
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Yup!

In the worst-case scenario for OP, even if MD/PhD is off the table, one can still be a researcher with just the MD.
 
Goro said:
Yup!

In the worst-case scenario for OP, even if MD/PhD is off the table, one can still be a researcher with just the MD.
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4-5yrs of pure research on top of 4 yr MD is not for everyone... you need to love research like it's your other half (and MORE).
 
One of my regrets in research was not communicating more with the research associate I worked for after he refused to have me back another semester (...and I was burned from a publication). I mean he definitely wasn't a good or honest researcher, but we had been close and I got a chip on my shoulder over research for quite a while.

Even if you don't want to use the letter, I'd see this through.
 
altblue said:
One of my regrets in research was not communicating more with the research associate I worked for after he refused to have me back another semester (...and I was burned from a publication). I mean he definitely wasn't a good or honest researcher, but we had been close and I got a chip on my shoulder over research for quite a while.

Even if you don't want to use the letter, I'd see this through.
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I feel that. Labs are tricky and have their own world of politics. I have seen it up close. I certainly didn't start off my research experience on a positive note. Though after that initial phase, I was all-in.
 
masnerj said:
I feel that. Labs are tricky and have their own world of politics. I have seen it up close. I certainly didn't start off my research experience on a positive note. Though after that initial phase, I was all-in.
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Yup. And it's just like nearly any other profession

You have dinguses, and you have nice people like my old PI (the associate was the prob!)
You have competent researchers, and those who lack so many soft skills you wonder how they got the position

I'm sure lots of people had more pleasant experiences and worked with wonderful mentors. I suppose a poor mentor and maybe some immaturity on my part did me in. Still wish I'd followed up with the associate though
 
altblue said:
Yup. And it's just like nearly any other profession

You have dinguses, and you have nice people like my old PI (the associate was the prob!)
You have competent researchers, and those who lack so many soft skills you wonder how they got the position

I'm sure lots of people had more pleasant experiences and worked with wonderful mentors. I suppose a poor mentor and maybe some immaturity on my part did me in. Still wish I'd followed up with the associate though
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And as an undergrad, the crazy thing is how much it can be to chance whether you are stuck in a good situation (2-3+ years in the same lab, a full-time paid summer, maybe a pub or two) or a bad situation (less than 6 months - 1 year in a couple of labs, never finding stability, no LoR). Some PIs and labs are just terrible and undergrads are essentially dish washers and other PIs and labs give undergrads an opportunity to learn, apply, and then work alongside everyone else in the lab as almost an equal.
 
masnerj said:
And as an undergrad, the crazy thing is how much it can be to chance whether you are stuck in a good situation (2-3+ years in the same lab, a full-time paid summer, maybe a pub or two) or a bad situation (less than 6 months - 1 year in a couple of labs, never finding stability, no LoR). Some PIs and labs are just terrible and undergrads are essentially dish washers and other PIs and labs give undergrads an opportunity to learn, apply, and then work alongside everyone else in the lab as almost an equal.
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That's why I tell anyone who's interested in research, or just needs to check off a box, to do their due diligence before joining. Prevent them from getting too unlucky or stuck in a bad sitch. Like people should ask themselves , am I compatible with the grad student / postdoc I would take orders from? Do I like the PI? Is the research interesting? Do I want a large, safe but impersonal lab or do I want a smaller lab with all the potential for highs and lows? Are the methods cool?

Etc.
 
medschoolplz88 said:
This is what’s been frustrating for me. I feel like ive had friends “fall” into independent projects with good mentorship, and they’re just doing research to build their med school app. I’ve had to fight for everything I’ve gotten and only now would I have had a project of my own in the old lab. Yes I did get a publication there, but I really want to experience the new lab since it aligns with my interests and I get along with the people more. Just frustrating to see my undergrad colleagues trotting along and having the path laid for them even though they don’t care deeply about research. I was once absolutely set on the MD PhD but have honestly become jaded to research after constantly stressing about lab choice and how I can get the opportunities I want. Can’t even tell if it’s the people around me or just me at this point. I know that I am more intentional and care more about my work than the average undergrad. I think about all the time. Unfortunately, that thinking has been mostly stressful lately.

Hahah sorry for the rant. This is bringing up some larger issues in general.
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No I completely feel. I have been very fortunate to be in an amazing situation since early in my "undergraduate career". I have a PI who is very supportive, very well-known (worked at a bunch of top-places), and just all-around a nice guy. However, he isn't in the lab a lot and usually travels a good amount for lectures, seminars, etc so most of my interactions are with my post-doc who is an amazing dude, talented and was really patient with me (and all my mistakes) in the early years. But I have a few friends that landed in completely opposite labs where they started to feel terrible and just didn't get along with anybody and in the end quit or were asked to leave.

Research is very hit or miss in the undergrad years, just the nature of the game. And its somewhat complicated by the kind of school you go to. Some of the most "talented" PIs make for hard to work with people and some not-so-talented PIs make for great teachers and mentors. My advice for any new or early undergraduates looking to get into research is to not worry too much about the "wow" of the lab or the reputation (as long as its decent and the lab produces papers at a somewhat consistent rate). You would much rather get into a situation where you can spend 2-3 years, learn a lot and slowly become part of the process rather than being an observer, a dish-washer, or an errand boy. For those that pick superstar labs and end up having a great time, all the power to you but I feel that its more important to look for a better relationship and communication when it comes to research rather than all-star status at this stage in our careers.

Obviously if one is trying to get into grad school or is already in grad school, then your PI's name and reputation plays a MUCH bigger role and should something that is looked at first because that could easily open lots of doors in the future (happens a lot with my PI and his grad students and undergrads that wanna go into grad school). But for us folks interested in the MD and not the PhD, I'd rather take a personally invested, great communicator, and easy-going PI over a rock-hard, superstar, hard-to-work with PI.
 
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