Pimping

[qw098]

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Got pimped today... in a clerkship transitional course. Prof asked me to name 10-12 extraintestinal manifestations of inflammatory bowel disease out of the blue..

Is this normal? Am I getting picked on.. this seems overly harsh.. or am I mistaken? Just wanted to know what others thought..

 

[bashwell]

Got pimped today... in a clerkship transitional course. Prof asked me to name 10-12 extraintestinal manifestations of inflammatory bowel disease out of the blue..

Is this normal? Am I getting picked on.. this seems overly harsh.. or am I mistaken? Just wanted to know what others thought..

Hmm, I'd say 10-12 is on the higher side, but it's possible.

But to answer your question, I would think it depends more on how your prof asked you. For example, if he or she was using the question as a helpful learning experience for you (and others), or if they were a total douche about it.

 

[cylondoctor]

Perfectly normal, especially if it's an appropriate question for your level. Pimping helps you learn and is not meant for you to look bad. Also his/her expectation of you getting all 12 is low, but you do your best to name a couple. Naming a couple of non-intestinal symptoms for crohns/uc is reasonable for a 3rd year. Knowing at least a couple of algorithms and management options for diseases is appropriate for a 4th year. When it's not appropriate? I was asked what are the different approaches to a suprasellar meningioma and to walk the attending through Simpson grading of removal.

 

[Psai]

Are you seriously this soft? You're upset that someone asked you a question? You think it's harsh and being picked on? Jesus Christ grow a pair

 

[mimelim]

Got pimped today... in a clerkship transitional course. Prof asked me to name 10-12 extraintestinal manifestations of inflammatory bowel disease out of the blue..

Is this normal? Am I getting picked on.. this seems overly harsh.. or am I mistaken? Just wanted to know what others thought..

If this upset you, this is going to be a very long road for you.

 

[deleted564680]

P.I.M.P = Put in my Place
Get used to it.

 

[Goro]

Yes it's normal;
No, you're not getting picked on;

God save our country from this Millennial attitude!


Is this normal? Am I getting picked on.. this seems overly harsh.. or am I mistaken? Just wanted to know what others thought..[/QUOTE]

 

[rjosh33]

...ain't easy.

 

[masaraksh]

Is hospice extraintestinal?

 

[Raryn]

I recommend reading http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=183639

Or even http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=377862 (click the PDF link to get the whole one)

 

[Shipping News]

Got pimped today... in a clerkship transitional course. Prof asked me to name 10-12 extraintestinal manifestations of inflammatory bowel disease out of the blue..

Is this normal? Am I getting picked on.. this seems overly harsh.. or am I mistaken? Just wanted to know what others thought..

What are you, a little baby? This is pretty benign pimping.

Read Raryn's article. The Muffin Defense is a skill to learn early and employ often (doesn't work in the OR, though).

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I've had pimping end with "did you even go to medical school, or were you born stupid?" and in surgery, this is commonly the norm.

you are being way too sensitive.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I've had pimping end with "did you even go to medical school, or were you born stupid?" and in surgery, this is commonly the norm.

you are being way to sensitive.

On my med school surgery rotation, god help you if you couldn't tell you Eddie Money from Queen from Van Halen while holding the camera.

 

[Craigielawson]

my attending on my first rotation said I was as useless as a penis flavored lollipop during a pimp session. I would rather have that insult any day than a participation trophy.

 

[WinslowPringle]

Eh, that wasn't even pimpin'. Read the article Raryn posted. As Brancati defines it, the major categories are arcane history, teleology, eponyms, technical aspects of lab research, or the exceedingly broad. Maybe if the attending followed it up by some epithet it could get bumped to pimp level.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

my attending on my first rotation said I was as useless as a penis flavored lollipop during a pimp session. I would rather have that insult any day than a participation trophy.

That attending just likes fine feature films.
Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

 

[Wordead]

Man, as a new M3 just off step 1? This should be right in your wheelhouse....

 

[NYCdude]

I totally get asking difficult questions and expecting high standards, but there's literally no reason to ever be a dick to someone.

 

[Psai]

I totally get asking difficult questions and expecting high standards, but there's literally no reason to ever be a dick to someone.

You're at the bottom of the totem pole. Worse than useless because you're always in the way. Deal with it

 

[username456789]

Jesus Christ. I've been out of medical school for less than 4 years and already they're being filled with bull**** millennial crybabies?

Yesterday a patient asked me what side effects to expect when I started her on cyclosporine. I told her that her microaggressions against me would not be tolerated, and then I took my blankie and had a half hour nap on a carpet sample.

 

[NontradCA]

Jesus Christ. I've been out of medical school for less than 4 years and already they're being filled with bull**** millennial crybabies?

Yesterday a patient asked me what side effects to expect when I started her on cyclosporine. I told her that her microaggressions against me would not be tolerated, and then I took my blanky and had a half hour nap on a carpet sample.

 

[Bacchus]

Keep on track. Keep it professional.

 

[Shipping News]

I totally get asking difficult questions and expecting high standards, but there's literally no reason to ever be a dick to someone.

Depends on your definition of "being a dick". Apparently OP thinks being asked straight-forward questions about Step 1 level knowledge is "being a dick".

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I totally get asking difficult questions and expecting high standards, but there's literally no reason to ever be a dick to someone.

That doesn't stop anyone from being a dick though. Some take pride in being the doctor everyone hates.

 

[Law2Doc]

I totally get asking difficult questions and expecting high standards, but there's literally no reason to ever be a dick to someone.

Yeah there kind of is a reason. The goal is to have the person who doesn't know the answer run home and read about it and know it cold. To a large extent someone busy on rotations is going to be quick to shrug off things he thinks will not come back to bite him. Putting a little fear of embarrassment into the situation makes sure that's not the case. If "not knowing" is tolerated the training is garbage. If people run home and read because you equate them to a peni$ flavored lollipop, then it served it's purpose. And if that helps you learn you'll actually have a thicker skin, get why they are doing this, and not hold a grudge. There are tons of nice attendings that let you coast and from whom you learn nothing. They aren't doing you any favors. The sad truth is it's often the SOB that's the only one who cares about you coming out of there well trained.

 

[Doudline]

Yeah there kind of is a reason. The goal is to have the person who doesn't know the answer run home and read about it and know it cold. To a large extent someone busy on rotations is going to be quick to shrug off things he thinks will not come back to bite him. Putting a little fear of embarrassment into the situation makes sure that's not the case. If "not knowing" is tolerated the training is garbage. If people run home and read because you equate them to a peni$ flavored lollipop, then it served it's purpose. And if that helps you learn you'll actually have a thicker skin, get why they are doing this, and not hold a grudge. There are tons of nice attendings that let you coast and from whom you learn nothing. They aren't doing you any favors. The sad truth is it's often the SOB that's the only one who cares about you coming out of there well trained.

Research clearly shows that education based on domination/humiliation/authority yields very poor outcomes in every sphere (competence, self-confidence, etc) or so.

It's simply an excuse for bullies to continue feeding their superiority complex.

 

[username456789]

Research clearly shows that education based on domination/humiliation/authority yields very poor outcomes in every sphere (competence, self-confidence, etc) or so.

It's simply an excuse for bullies to continue feeding their superiority complex.

Let's all hold hands and go around the room saying one nice thing about the person to our left.

I'll start. Doudline has the softest hands I've ever seen. It's like he's never worked a day in his life.

There, don't we feel better? Now none of us have to worry about being knowledge-shamed, and those above us will remember to check their attending privilege.

 

[bashwell]

Yeah there kind of is a reason. The goal is to have the person who doesn't know the answer run home and read about it and know it cold. To a large extent someone busy on rotations is going to be quick to shrug off things he thinks will not come back to bite him. Putting a little fear of embarrassment into the situation makes sure that's not the case. If "not knowing" is tolerated the training is garbage. If people run home and read because you equate them to a peni$ flavored lollipop, then it served it's purpose. And if that helps you learn you'll actually have a thicker skin, get why they are doing this, and not hold a grudge. There are tons of nice attendings that let you coast and from whom you learn nothing. They aren't doing you any favors. The sad truth is it's often the SOB that's the only one who cares about you coming out of there well trained.

I'd say there's a difference between "putting a little fear of embarrassment into the situation" so residents are willing to learn vs being a dick.

Maybe the lines between the two aren't perfectly demarcated, and maybe sometimes the lines can even be blurred, but there's still a difference. It's kind of like the difference between art and pornography: I might not be able to spell out the exact differences, but I know it when I see it.

 

[Wordead]

Research clearly shows that education based on domination/humiliation/authority yields very poor outcomes in every sphere (competence, self-confidence, etc) or so.

It's simply an excuse for bullies to continue feeding their superiority complex.

Sounds like classic BS social science experiments that set out with an agenda. You show me a paper, ill tell you how it's completely flawed.

 

[NYCdude]

LOL at all the hard asses in this thread. If you feel the need to **** on the people ranked lower than you, then you're a sad person.

 

[Psai]

Research clearly shows that education based on domination/humiliation/authority yields very poor outcomes in every sphere (competence, self-confidence, etc) or so.

It's simply an excuse for bullies to continue feeding their superiority complex.

"Research shows"
Are you a nurse or something? If you want to make a point, feel free to post the actual studies. We have this thing called the internet now. It's a really useful way to look up things when you're trying to make a point about something. High quality studies published in reputable journals. Even these are not infallible

All I know is that when someone makes me feel like crap for not knowing something, I make sure that I know it next time

LOL at all the hard asses in this thread. If you feel the need to **** on the people ranked lower than you, then you're a sad person.

Bro if you feel the need to have your hand held with scheduled nicey nice time, you need to go back to preschool

 

[username456789]

LOL at all the hard asses in this thread. If you feel the need to **** on the people ranked lower than you, then you're a sad person.

It's extremely telling that you interpret what is going on this thread as being a hard ass. You are just reinforcing the awful millennial stereotype.

 

[Doudline]

Let's all hold hands and go around the room saying one nice thing about the person to our left.

I'll start. Doudline has the softest hands I've ever seen. It's like he's never worked a day in his life.

There, don't we feel better? Now none of us have to worry about being knowledge-shamed, and those above us will remember to check their attending privilege.

If I have soft hands it's because I MOISTURIZE, OK? You should try it.

And I didn't expect you to use logic. It's fine.

 

[NYCdude]

Yeah there kind of is a reason. The goal is to have the person who doesn't know the answer run home and read about it and know it cold. To a large extent someone busy on rotations is going to be quick to shrug off things he thinks will not come back to bite him. Putting a little fear of embarrassment into the situation makes sure that's not the case. If "not knowing" is tolerated the training is garbage. If people run home and read because you equate them to a peni$ flavored lollipop, then it served it's purpose. And if that helps you learn you'll actually have a thicker skin, get why they are doing this, and not hold a grudge. There are tons of nice attendings that let you coast and from whom you learn nothing. They aren't doing you any favors. The sad truth is it's often the SOB that's the only one who cares about you coming out of there well trained.

Yeah, I ain't buying. There are ways to communicate the necessity of something without resorting to weird name calling.

 

[username456789]

If I have soft hands it's because I MOISTURIZE, OK? You should try it.

I'm a dermatologist. I think I know a thing or two about lotion.

 

[username456789]

Yeah, I ain't buying. There are ways to communicate the necessity of something without resorting to weird name calling.

Of course. Less effective ways, but ways.

 

[mcloaf]

Of course. Less effective ways, but ways.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that comparing someone to a penis flavored lollipop is pretty much never going to be the most effective way to do anything outside of providing dialogue in low-budget porn.

Both sides of this argument have legitimate points. Pimping can be a really effective tool precisely because it puts consequences (embarrassment, etc.) in place for being wrong. Some of you guys are losing me, though, when you say that this in turn provides justification for straight up med student verbal abuse. To be clear, nothing about OPs situation is inappropriate, but you don't have to be a crybaby millennial to recognize that there are attendings out there who are actually just dinguses and treat people like **** because they can--not because they feel that insulting people is the ideal instructional approach.

 

[qtpai]

With this talk that humiliation is a necessary teaching tool, you'd think that medical students weren't already extremely motivated.

 

[Doudline]

"Research shows"
Are you a nurse or something? If you want to make a point, feel free to post the actual studies. We have this thing called the internet now. It's a really useful way to look up things when you're trying to make a point about something. High quality studies published in reputable journals. Even these are not infallible

All I know is that when someone makes me feel like crap for not knowing something, I make sure that I know it next time

You can start here for example: http://www.parentingscience.com/authoritarian-parenting.html

Lot's of Internet sources for you, dear.

"American adolescents have reported that teens with authoritarian parents were the least likely to feel socially accepted by their peers. They were also rated as less self-reliant"

"When researchers questioned 231 young adolescents about their cultural values and experiences with peers, they found that kids from authoritarian homes were more likely to have experienced bullying -- both as victims and perpetrators"

"In Dutch studies, kids with authoritarian parents were rated as less helpful and less popular by their teachers and classmates. They were also rated as less mature in their reasoning about moral issues"

"In Dutch studies, kids with authoritarian parents were rated as less helpful and less popular by their teachers and classmates. They were also rated as less mature in their reasoning about moral issues"

"Melissa Kamins and Carol Dweck have shown that a common tactic of authoritarian caregiving--shaming a child for poor performance--can make kids perform more poorly on problem-solving tasks"

"experiments suggest that people learn better from positive feedback than from negative feedback, and this may be especially true for kids"

"a study of adolescents in the San Francisco Bay Area found that the authoritarian parenting style was linked with lower school grades for all ethnic groups"

etc etc. And a quick Google search -tell me if you have difficulty with typing "authoritarian education" in the search engine! I will be glad to help- will yield thousands more result.

 

[Psai]

You can start here for example: http://www.parentingscience.com/authoritarian-parenting.html

Lot's of Internet sources for you, dear.

"American adolescents have reported that teens with authoritarian parents were the least likely to feel socially accepted by their peers. They were also rated as less self-reliant"

"When researchers questioned 231 young adolescents about their cultural values and experiences with peers, they found that kids from authoritarian homes were more likely to have experienced bullying -- both as victims and perpetrators"

"In Dutch studies, kids with authoritarian parents were rated as less helpful and less popular by their teachers and classmates. They were also rated as less mature in their reasoning about moral issues"

"In Dutch studies, kids with authoritarian parents were rated as less helpful and less popular by their teachers and classmates. They were also rated as less mature in their reasoning about moral issues"

"Melissa Kamins and Carol Dweck have shown that a common tactic of authoritarian caregiving--shaming a child for poor performance--can make kids perform more poorly on problem-solving tasks"

"experiments suggest that people learn better from positive feedback than from negative feedback, and this may be especially true for kids"

"a study of adolescents in the San Francisco Bay Area found that the authoritarian parenting style was linked with lower school grades for all ethnic groups"

etc etc. And a quick Google search -tell me if you have difficulty with typing "authoritarian education" in the search engine! I will be glad to help- will yield thousands more result.

The word "lots" does not have an apostrophe in it. Your idea of proof is copy/pasting random crap from a random website? lmao get this garbage out of here son

What kind of positive feedback are you even looking for? "Oh amazing job, you didn't know basic things that were tested on step 1, congratulations Dr. third year medical student"

 

[Doudline]

Honey, if you actually read anything, you'd see that everything is sourced.
I'm sure you'll do better next time.

(And thanks on the typo! Corrected.)

 

[Señor S]

Sounds like classic BS social science experiments that set out with an agenda. You show me a paper, ill tell you how it's completely flawed.

Tough to argue with that logic.

 

[username456789]

You can start here for example: http://www.parentingscience.com/authoritarian-parenting.html

Lot's of Internet sources for you, dear.

"American adolescents have reported that teens with authoritarian parents were the least likely to feel socially accepted by their peers. They were also rated as less self-reliant"

"When researchers questioned 231 young adolescents about their cultural values and experiences with peers, they found that kids from authoritarian homes were more likely to have experienced bullying -- both as victims and perpetrators"

"In Dutch studies, kids with authoritarian parents were rated as less helpful and less popular by their teachers and classmates. They were also rated as less mature in their reasoning about moral issues"

"In Dutch studies, kids with authoritarian parents were rated as less helpful and less popular by their teachers and classmates. They were also rated as less mature in their reasoning about moral issues"

"Melissa Kamins and Carol Dweck have shown that a common tactic of authoritarian caregiving--shaming a child for poor performance--can make kids perform more poorly on problem-solving tasks"

"experiments suggest that people learn better from positive feedback than from negative feedback, and this may be especially true for kids"

"a study of adolescents in the San Francisco Bay Area found that the authoritarian parenting style was linked with lower school grades for all ethnic groups"

etc etc. And a quick Google search -tell me if you have difficulty with typing "authoritarian education" in the search engine! I will be glad to help- will yield thousands more result.

That was an exciting non sequitur field trip into the world of adolescent parenting psychology.

Now post the stuff about education that you mentioned. You know, the stuff that would be relevant to our discussion.

 

[Psai]

Honey, if you actually read anything, you'd see that everything is sourced.
I'm sure you'll do better next time.

(And thanks on the typo! Corrected.)

You: Research clearly shows that education based on domination/humiliation/authority yields very poor outcomes in every sphere (competence, self-confidence, etc) or so. No attempts to provide any actual proof

Me: Proof please

You: Grammatical errors and nonsense about authoritarian parenting from random website with nothing about humiliation and domination in the medical field. Also attempts to act condescending as knows nothing about topic raised. Still no actual proof for claims

 

[Doudline]

That was an exciting non sequitur field trip into the world of adolescent parenting psychology.

Now post the stuff about education that you mentioned. You know, the stuff that would be relevant to our discussion.

Parenting is a form of education. And I have no reason to believe that authoritarian practices highly counterproductive to a child and adolescent's development and competences are suddenly productive at 21 y/o.

Do you? Why?

 

[22031 Alum]

Lot's of Internet sources for you, dear.

If you're going to make a whole post about how being humiliated/condescended to is not necessary, you should probably avoid throwing in condescending bits like the bolded. And the "honey" in the next post. It's not a good look for anyone, but especially not when you're trying to make that point.

I think both sides are right in this scenario. It is possible to "strike some fear into some hearts" without resorting to actual name-calling. If my residents don't know something they should, I make it very clear that they aren't meeting the expected standard, and there are consequences to that. Sometimes it's getting called out in front of the entire program at conference. Sometimes it's being called to my office for some feedback. Sometimes it's getting asked to leave my OR. No name calling necessary, but certainly no pats on the back with a "That's okay..."

 

[username456789]

Huh? With this talk that humiliation is a necessary teaching tool, you'd think that medical students weren't already extremely motivated or something.

I think we should all keep in mind that many of us are explaining how ridiculous the OP is being. We (ostensibly) are not necessarily arguing that verbally berating or humiliating students is ideal for learning. But it's more than a few subway stops to get from the original topic of this thread to where some of you are taking it.

And I know it feels good to say "hey, I'm a motivated student, leave me out of this stuff." But being held accountable for knowledge (and sometimes in a public fashion) is not only a 100% acceptable practice in medical school, but is arguably one of the most effective ways to ensure you learn or remember something.

 

[Doudline]

You: "Research clearly shows that education based on domination/humiliation/authority yields very poor outcomes in every sphere (competence, self-confidence, etc) or so." "No attempts to provide any proof"

Me: "Proof please"

You: "Grammatical errors and nonsense about authoritarian parenting from random website with nothing about humiliation and domination in the medical field." "Also attempts to act condescending as knows nothing about topic raised"

I didn't pretend to have formal proof about the effects of humiliation and domination in the medical field. I simply said "education". I find it fairly simple and honest to make inferences based on the information given, however. Perhaps you do not.

(And if you insist on incorrect English, paraphrasing does not require quotation marks.)

 

[DrBowtie]

Parenting is a form of education. And I have no reason to believe that authoritarian practices being highly counterproductive to a child and adolescent's development and competences are suddenly productive at 21 y/o.

Do you? Why?

The vast majority of clinical clerks are adults age 24+. They are big boys and girls.

 

[Señor S]

You can start here for example: http://www.parentingscience.com/authoritarian-parenting.html

Lot's of Internet sources for you, dear.

In my experience most doctors (including surgeons) are not especially mean or hostile people. It's true that some (especially surgeons) have a bit of an edge and like to give people a hard time, but their intent isn't to destroy you as a person. This isn't killing something for the pleasure of watching it die. "Humiliation" and even "authoritarian" are strong words, at least in terms of medical students to whom they're usually somewhat apathetic.