Plagarising on AMCAS Essay

[BlackPuma]

you know this whole thread is really silly...

I mean HELLO PEOPLE WHO GIVES A DAMN IF OTHERS CHEAT....one should always compete with him/herself...people who cheat themselves in their lives eventually get caught and ruin themselves...

I dont understand why everyone here is so PREOCCUPIED with what other people are doing?! okay so you spent 9 months writing your personal statement, well good for you...I spent 11 months on mine?! so big deal, shows you care about your future and you invest the time in it? now why do you care if the other person cheated or not?! beleive me, he won't be "taking your seat"...there is more to med school than a personal statement.....SIGH

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[8675309]

Originally posted by quake:
•Also people who feel that someones lie would prevent deserving applicants from getting in should reevaluate themselves well. If the adcoms do not like you for who you say you are...they don't. If they like another person for something he says he is that he isn't, how does that affect you. Who you are is who you are. If the guy had doctored his GPA or MCAT score or written his own rec letters that would be different. But a personal statement....?


Yes what he did was wrong. Solve it the good way. Frantic was probably not there when he pushed the submit button... Give him the benefit of the doubt until after the confrontation.
Please keep us updated.•••

Two things,

1. What do YOU think Frantic should do if he/she confronts this person, finds out that they plagarized, and that that person doesn't care and will not confess?

2. It does affect SOMEBODY if this CHEATER gets in because med school admissions is a ZERO-SUM game. It is conceiveable that two applicants undergoing review could have something as trivial as their personal statement cause one to be invited for an interview or receive further review and the other be rejected.

Bottomline: If the cheater is accepted somewhere, someone is hurt by it.

Also, if you think this topic is silly than why post here, isn't that an even more assinine reason to post that replying to the topic?

 

[Col_4:14]

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit:
•you know this whole thread is really silly...

I mean HELLO PEOPLE WHO GIVES A DAMN IF OTHERS CHEAT....one should always compete with him/herself...people who cheat themselves in their lives eventually get caught and ruin themselves...

I dont understand why everyone here is so PREOCCUPIED with what other people are doing?! okay so you spent 9 months writing your personal statement, well good for you...I spent 11 months on mine?! so big deal, shows you care about your future and you invest the time in it? now why do you care if the other person cheated or not?! beleive me, he won't be "taking your seat"...there is more to med school than a personal statement.....SIGH •••

OK once again, I see that the courses in "ethics" are necessary for some.
This isn't a high school history exam we are talking about. This is medical school.

Plagiarism smagiarism, these academic whinings sicken me! There are NO original words or combinations of words, so shut up about it. Whiner
••

This made no sense to me. I read it a couple of times and then realized that this was from an 18th century novel about boot lackeys. Word for word

Ask Joe Biden if people care about plagarism

 

[intoxicatedtiger]

I think betrayal is not a high moral character trait, and I think that snitching on a friend anonymously or without even confronting him is considered betrayal. And obviously this person was a friend since frantic helped out on his/her PS. I think you should give this friend a chance to do something about his misjudgments with dignity. Where's your loyalty to your friends? Like some people said, give them the benefit of the doubt. Honestly, I wouldn't want you as a friend if I knew you'd judge me for all my actions, and behind my back as well! So if a you found out something immoral about a patient, would you snitch on them too? I think you should confront this person before opting a course of action.

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

This made no sense to me. I read it a couple of times and then realized that this was from an 18th century novel about boot lackeys. Word for word ••

Cool ass! You mean I plagiarized something? hehehe dang! See what I mean, there ar no original words!


I agree with the people who say, big deal its none of your business. Even if it gets them in and some passivist whiner doesn't, who cares. I would rather have a doctor who would "do what it takes" to get me well anyway. And don't give me that crap about how honest and noble you are or want your doc to be. If you are Christian, then you know all are sinners and if you feel you aren't one then you should cast the first stone, etc etc. If you aren't Christian, then I'm sure that whatever faith you subscribe to tells you that you aren't perfect either. Hell, the ex-president of the united states cheated on his wife and lied like hell after swearing on the bible in court and I'd bet those of you who are whining about this plagiarizer guy probably supported him and went around saying, well thats his business we should stay out of it!

 

[Amy B]

Oh, that makes sense. You want a doctor who is dishonest and can't come up with his own thoughts.

I can see this now. You are having a brain tumor removed and your surgeon says. "Hang on, I have to call the person I used to copy from to finish your brain surgery."

Yea right

 

[Col_4:14]

Originally posted by Slingblade the Surgeon:
•

Cool ass! You mean I plagiarized something? hehehe dang! See what I mean, there ar no original words!


I agree with the people who say, big deal its none of your business. Even if it gets them in and some passivist whiner doesn't, who cares. I would rather have a doctor who would "do what it takes" to get me well anyway. And don't give me that crap about how honest and noble you are or want your doc to be. If you are Christian, then you know all are sinners and if you feel you aren't one then you should cast the first stone, etc etc. If you aren't Christian, then I'm sure that whatever faith you subscribe to tells you that you aren't perfect either. Hell, the ex-president of the united states cheated on his wife and lied like hell after swearing on the bible in court and I'd bet those of you who are whining about this plagiarizer guy probably supported him and went around saying, well thats his business we should stay out of it!•••

Check it son, I do not intend to bring this into a "religious" dialogue. It doesn't have to. The seriousness of the ramifications of someone like this entering medical school stand alone so I will ignore your attempt to bait me into an "Everyone is a sinner so nobody is EVER wrong" debate. Which is a classic cop out for those looking to rationalize their childish behavior.

I have one question for you. Have you signed an honor code in medical school yet? You will see that the honor of the medical profession stands as a higher standard compared to the loyaltly of your drinking buddy.
As for "doing what it takes" attitude, stealing someone else's thoughts, words, and ideas as your own is not ethical. What would stop this student from doing "what it takes" to pass a histo exam by copying from someone else? What would stop this person from "doing whatever it takes" to stomp and steal their way through medical school, only to find themselves on their own one day without the benefit of taking from someone else again? I can tell I may be debating with someone of questionable scruples and this is making no sense. If that is the case, I wish you the worst in trying to get in, and save this profession from doctors who feel up their anesthitized patients and who lie, cheat and steal their way to do "whatever it takes" to make a buck.

As far as confrontation:
Usually I agree with this tactic, but in this case it is a dead end. What would he do?
#1 Act surprise and tell you it is no big deal and threaten you mr ness to not tell anyone.
#2 Ask AMCAS and all the schools to trash his application (NOT VERY LIKELY)

There are no options for him now.

 

[jasmine]

Originally posted by Slingblade the Surgeon:
•

I would rather have a doctor who would "do what it takes" to get me well anyway.•••

Or I suppose a doctor who would do everything possible to cover his ass when things go wrong? Or one who would undermine his colleagues to get ahead?

My two bits to the debate: confront the guy, give him a chance to reform. Not allowing him at least the opportunity to do the right thing would be poor form... How would that be a dead end? The guy did something unethical, how is setting him straight a dead end?

Frantic has any of this debate helped you anyway?

 

[md2be06]

Ok, where do we draw the line? Clearly, this is unfair to the rest of the applicants, but so are a lot of other things. What about all the people who copy lab reports, while I slave away for 10 hours typing mine up? What about those individuals who just borrow other people's pre-labs in Physics instead of doing their own work? These actions directly affect people's grades, and it could be argued that it affects other's chances for admission. Why aren't those people ratted out as well? Why is plagiarism of a personal statement a bigger deal than everyday academic honesty?

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

Col_4:14,

I sincerely hope you don't intend to make this personal by such condescending language as "CHECK IT SON". I am well into my 30's and not your son, so don't even try to belittle me. The child is the one who attempts to degrade a discussion with personal attacks. Ask yourself COL_4:14, who that might be.

 

[saxonmacleod]

Frankly, I've found this entire thread disheartening...as physicians we will be required to police ourselves because nobody else knows the subject as well as we supposively do. Now, if there is seriously anyone on here who wouldn't testify against a fellow physician when they did something unethical because that would be "snitching" then we will deserve to be quickly subject to being policed by the lawyers, and that is the last group I want looking over MY shoulder. We should not be physicians because we want to win friends and influence people, though I know that is why many DO want to be doctors...we should be in medicine because we want to help our PATIENTS, and if Mr. X couldn't even think of a personal statement, he should not be in medicine. I'd like to think that we could be ethically superior to politicians, so I won't address the "Clinton did it" defense. Plagiarism is the cowardly option, as it shows that this person was afraid their own words were unworthy. It was not the act of someone who would "do anything" to cure his patients...it was the act of one who would "do anything" to satisfy his own misplaced ambitions. And as for the "he's your friend" defense...come on! Apparently I've got to go back to the old motherly bromide, "and if your friend killed someone would you shut your mouth then too?" And if you think that is the extreme, I would point out that we will OFTEN have the power of life and death in our hands, and I suspect that Mr. X cares much more for his own a$$ than he does for his potential patients. So what would I do? I'd watch him put the application withdrawal letters in the mail, after telling him I was going to make sure he was not allowed to stain MY reputation or the reputations of my one-day colleagues, and then I'd notify his advisor, so that he would not be allowed to make that "mistake" again. It's called going through channels, and it is what is required of those of us who truly do have both our patients' and our colleagues' interests at heart. And now I'll shut up, because I've rambled on enough.

 

[Weeble]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This made no sense to me. I read it a couple of times and then realized that this was from an 18th century novel about boot lackeys. Word for word
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Slingblade the Surgeon:
•

Cool ass! You mean I plagiarized something? hehehe dang! See what I mean, there ar no original words!

•••


Um, I think the bootstrapping thing was a joke.

 

[Col_4:14]

Surgical switchblade,
I suppose "cool ass" is a term of endearment
I didn't realize you were a member of the AARP, I guess I was way off base
Just trying to do "whatever it takes."

 

[Col_4:14]

Originally posted by Weeble:
•quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This made no sense to me. I read it a couple of times and then realized that this was from an 18th century novel about boot lackeys. Word for word
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Um, I think the bootstrapping thing was a joke.•••


I don't think he got it. That's what made it so funny!

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

My my aren't I the unpopular one on this topic.

Ummm No I didn't get the joke, sorry.

My AARP card hasn't arrived yet (looking forward to the discounts though).

And "cool ass!" was an exclamation not name-calling, sorry you misread it and felt violated.

I have to say that some of you make pretty good arguments, but I still don't think that someone lacks the ability to think for him/her self because he/she chooses to steal another's work. And I certainly don't brand people as incompetent or wish them ill will (as others have done me in here). This argument that someone who has done something wrong (plagiarize, steal cable, etc.) should not be allowed to be a doctor or anything they choose is ridiculous and not for us to decide. I agree with the poster who said it is their business, not ours. Our jobs are to heal the sick, not to be the moral police for our colleagues.

 

[quake]

Maybe SpringBlade was giving you a doze of your own medicine. Fighting sarcasm with sarcasm.

Now to the topic at hand.
I find it very interesting that people are unwilling to recognize the fact that it is much better to confront the "plagiarist" before taking any recourse. How would you like it if your best friend wrote a letter to the adcom saying that he/she was very disheartened that an aspiring doctor like yourself cut a few corners during organic lab. Remember the time in organic lab 2 when you knew you had identified compound A to be hexanol but the boiling point of the unknown was too low for comfort so you recorded a b.p that was slightly higher than what you determined experimentally. Imagine your best friend's letter reading: I can see so and so being dishonest and irresponsible as a doctor. Keep him out.
What about the lectures you've missed... The letter would read: this person may become the kind of doctor who wouldn't show up for surgery blah blah blah. Every little misdeed can be interperated to mean that you might not become a good doctor; So you went over the speed limit. Does that mean that you would be a doctor who would break every rule known to man? Take an introspective look at your life and realize that every wrong doing can imply that you would be a horrible doctor. Have you ever been drunk? Well that also sugests irresponsibility. Have you ever lost your temper? ooops maybe you shan't be patient with your patients. Have you ever procastinated? maybe you would keep on procastinating surgery till your patient dies!

If you feel this strongly about your friend's dishonesty, confront him and then write the letter to adcom but be sure to append your signature to it. After all you want them to know that, this is who you are.. you do not tolerate dishonesty. Remember, this on your next tax return form, remember this when you feel like telling a little white lie, remember this when you are trying to come up with a "good answer" to an interview question...

Am I coondoning sin... NO! I just hope we all realize that we are not sinless. Personally, I believe that this is where religion comes in. Jesus' words are: come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I shall give you rest." As a person identifies himself with Jesus, who has the power to sanctify and justify... he/she gradually grow to become like HIM. It doesn't happen over night.

 

[warpath]

Originally posted by quake:
•Maybe SpringBlade was giving you a doze of your own medicine. Fighting sarcasm with sarcasm.

Now to the topic at hand.
I find it very interesting that people are unwilling to recognize the fact that it is much better to confront the "plagiarist" before taking any recourse. How would you like it if your best friend wrote a letter to the adcom saying that he/she was very disheartened that an aspiring doctor like yourself cut a few corners during organic lab. Remember the time in organic lab 2 when you knew you had identified compound A to be hexanol but the boiling point of the unknown was too low for comfort so you recorded a b.p that was slightly higher than what you determined experimentally. Imagine your best friend's letter reading: I can see so and so being dishonest and irresponsible as a doctor. Keep him out.
What about the lectures you've missed... The letter would read: this person may become the kind of doctor who wouldn't show up for surgery blah blah blah. Every little misdeed can be interperated to mean that you might not become a good doctor; So you went over the speed limit. Does that mean that you would be a doctor who would break every rule known to man? Take an introspective look at your life and realize that every wrong doing can imply that you would be a horrible doctor. Have you ever been drunk? Well that also sugests irresponsibility. Have you ever lost your temper? ooops maybe you shan't be patient with your patients. Have you ever procastinated? maybe you would keep on procastinating surgery till your patient dies!

If you feel this strongly about your friend's dishonesty, confront him and then write the letter to adcom but be sure to append your signature to it. After all you want them to know that, this is who you are.. you do not tolerate dishonesty. Remember, this on your next tax return form, remember this when you feel like telling a little white lie, remember this when you are trying to come up with a "good answer" to an interview question...

Am I coondoning sin... NO! I just hope we all realize that we are not sinless. Personally, I believe that this is where religion comes in. Jesus' words are: come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I shall give you rest." As a person identifies himself with Jesus, who has the power to sanctify and justify... he/she gradually grow to become like HIM. It doesn't happen over night.•••

And to that, I say AMEN


Case closed.

 

[EpiII]

Originally posted by Logan:
•I just think that is ridiculous that you spent nine months on your personal statement•••

Personally, I think it was good planning. This is one of the most important parts of the application. I wish I had spent more time on mine. I think mine is good, but more prep is always good

 

[brandonite]

I put mine together pretty quickly, but I know a lot of people that spend a lot of time on it. As in more than MCAT prep time...

Considering it's importance, I really can't blame them. And I'm sure that it wasn't 9 months of constant work, but just working at it every once in a while.

 

[EpiII]

Originally posted by Slingblade the Surgeon:
•
Hell, the ex-president of the united states cheated on his wife and lied like hell after swearing on the bible in court and I'd bet those of you who are whining about this plagiarizer guy probably supported him and went around saying, well thats his business we should stay out of it!•••

That definitely makes it right. He got away with it.

 

[EpiII]

I think the combination approach is probably the best. Also the reminder that dishonesty reaches into each of our lives in many ways (white lies, tax returns, etc.) was very appropriate.

Just a question - would you need to write to each Med School or would one letter to AMCAS suffice. Maybe they would be able to contact the schools themselves (they are quite good at contacting the schools, you know ) If a school finds out something like this, they will report it back up to AMCAS and the person most likely will be blackballed from applying ever.

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

I'll second that Amen.

Way to reel us back in there Quake.

 

[vixen]

If I were you, I would probably confront your friend. I realize we all have our own set of morals, and to me, it would be morally wrong to ignore the fact. I would not want to be involved w/talking to the med school, so I would probably confront him/her...what they did from there on would be their decision, but I would have to make it known to them it's not right. Just because people get away w/**** all the time doesn't make it right.

 

[nochaser]

Ok, where do we draw the line? Clearly, this is unfair to the rest of the applicants, but so are a lot of other things. What about all the people who copy lab reports, while I slave away for 10 hours typing mine up? What about those individuals who just borrow other people's pre-labs in Physics instead of doing their own work? These actions directly affect people's grades, and it could be argued that it affects other's chances for admission. Why aren't those people ratted out as well? Why is plagiarism of a personal statement a bigger deal than everyday academic honesty?

I here ya, Md2b06! I have seen this, too, and the prof's know it happens, and they don't care! I was actually tempted to do it myself once, but you know what? I am glad to have that C in Orgo II knowing that I gave it my best shot rather than getting an A/B having cheated. I am just too honest for my own good, I guess. Many folks think I am crazy for passing up these types of opportunities, but they don't have to live with me--I do. If honesty is going to keep me outta med school, so be it! I am not that desperate. Unfortunately, this crazy competitiveness to get into med school brings out the worst of some fairly decent folks. I think down the line, in the grand scheme of it all, these things have a way of showing up and biting folks in the ass later. Is it worth it? Not to me. To each, his/her own.

 

[Lubdub]

Are some people so unconfident that they must plagiarize?

Perhaps so, but is Frantic so unconfident that the he has to tell on someone?

Frantic, if your friend solicited your help, then give it to him/her. Tell them that they shouldn't plagiarize!

Making generalizations about the competence of a doctor/premed/medstudent based on an one or two acts of indiscretion is rediculous!! So I'm not going to buy "if a person cheats on an essay they will cheat as doctors".

Quite frankly, if I'm in need of surgery, I'm going to go to the guy who's a good surgeon, regardless if he cheats on his wife or is an dingus.

If someone is cheater or incompetent doctor, it WILL show when they practice! There will be a pool of icompetent doctors no matter what, it is not our job to police who should/shouldn't go to med school.

Frantic, if you are confident in your application then don't go and snitch, rather talk to your friend about it.

On the other hand, if the competition is sooooo cut-throat that you need to get ahead by discrediting others, then you are no better than the fella who plagiarized.

~Lubdub

 

[brandonite]

Lubdub -

I disagree. The personal statement is the most important part of the application. It probably isn't as important as your MCATs, but it is on the same scale. That's my main objection. If this had been about someone cheating on the MCAT, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Secondly, as to their skills as a doctor... If the only way the got into medical school is through cheating, then how do we know they'll be a good doctor?

Not all of us are perfect. I fully understand that. But the personal statement is an IMPORTANT part of the application! If this were anything else, then I could see letting it slide. But not this...

 

[SMW]

OK, I've been trying to stay out of this. But I have to say that one of the major problems with our health care system is that doctors do not police themselves, ergo all the lawsuits, many of which are perfectly well justified. And here is the genesis of the problem. And some of you say just ignore it 'cause nobody's perfect. Well, folks, if we won't do it, someone's gonna do it for us, and you're going to like that a whole lot less than the idea of someone "snitching." What are we, children, anyway?

 

[Mage]

I'm still wondering if this guy just forgot to cite the source in the draft he gave to frantic or what. I really can't imagine someone plagiarizing just for that essay.

If he did plagiarize, go ahead and report him. It's the principle of the matter. Plagiarism is a crime (academically, at least), and he committed a crime. Why anyone would sympathize with him is beyond me. There are plenty of others far more worthy of such sympathy than decadent, selfish cheaters.