futureMD2020L
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Just curious if schools can see how many waitlists you are on/if you are on them after PTE?
'Plan to enroll' clarification
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Nope.
D
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I just dropped my second acceptance today. Would anyone of u recommend that I email my already selected plan to enroll school saying it might show I have two acceptances on AMCAs but I already emailed them to drop? I'm just a little paranoid 😛
I'm a little curious about this as well. A school that I withdrew from weeks ago is still on my CYMST
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It's easy to drive yourself crazy with all the possibilities, so just keep in mind that the only thing that is visible to any school with respect to other schools is PTE/CTE -- not other As that you haven't selected as PTE/CTE, and not other WLs.
As to whether a school will discriminate against a WL candidate that is PTE elsewhere, only the school itself could say for sure. You raise a valid point about yield, but people stay on WLs for a reason. For most, it's because they'd rather attend that school than the one they are PTEd at, but others just like to stay on WLs to see what happens, or to see if they might get merit money they could use to try to leverage the school where they are PTE.
I don't think a school would pass over someone on the WL because they are PTE elsewhere, but I'm not an adcom, so who knows? In any event, you gain nothing from withdrawing from a WL you might actually want to attend, regardless of what they might be able to see (but again, nobody can see anything other than PTE/CTE).
Adcom wisdom is that yield is managed on the front-end, by not granting IIs to those deemed unlikely to attend, and on the back-end, by the so-called needy schools who make you profess undying fealty to receive an A, but not at this stage by not taking you from a WL if they think you might be on lots of other WLs. In fact, if they are rational actors, you would think they would assume you are on WLs everywhere else you applied. If not, what are the other schools seeing that they might be missing? 🙂
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Yes, you are being paranoid. They can't see other As; they can only see PTE/CTE. The PTE school will not be able to see the other A, whether or not you dropped it. The dropped school would see the PTE at the other school, and would probably drop you if you didn't drop them!
I have a question about this. I PTE'd at School A but School B had a clause in their reminder email for PTE/CTE day that they understand if you have to hold multiple seats for certain reasons, but to have a decision no later than May 15th as to whether you are PTE or CTE at their school. So does that mean, if they said that in their email, that I can stay PTE at School A while holding onto School B (for scholarship matching reasons, award came in late) so that I can take a few more days to decide without having to worry about getting dropped by School B?
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What's school A's policy? Do they say you must PTE and drop all other acceptances on 4/30? If so, by holding onto multiple acceptances, you are in violation of school A's policy, although they currently aren't able to see that you have other acceptances. Regardless, I think there's some risk.
Yeah, that's what I thought regarding the risk. I couldn't find their policy aside from just stating you have to PTE by 4/30. I emailed and called both School A and School B multiple times yesterday to confirm a possible extension for School A as well, since it seemed like School B was amenable to it due to their original email. I didn't get a response from either. Sent an email to School B's dean this morning explaining the situation and also tried calling their office in the event they're answering from home, but no response yet.
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School B already said you could wait until 5/15, so not selecting them for PTE shouldn't be an issue for now.
School A could require you to choose PTE but not require you to withdraw from other schools, some schools do have this policy. Here's an example from Drexel: https://www.drexel.edu/~/media/Imag...program-accepted-student-timeline-2020-02.jpg
If they don't mention withdrawing it probably isn't part of their policy, although it's not a bad idea to double check.
Ok thanks for helping to clarify. I'm hoping to get some sort of response from School A this morning about whether they can or can't allow me an extension. I only requested an additional 1-2 business days so wasn't intending to string anyone along for the full 2 weeks. Hopefully they would understand.
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Good luck 🙂
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Yup! That's exactly what they are saying. School A might drop you if they could see the other A, but they can't, so you're good. School B can see the other PTE, but they are specifically telling you it's okay until 5/15.
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I wouldn't have done this. Are you prepared to drop School B if School A won't give you the extension? As the lawyers like to say, never ask a question you don't already know the answer to. 🙂 School A can't force you to drop another school's acceptance if the other school agrees to extend your deadline. I'd leave it at that and not go looking for trouble.
They might not understand, because you are signalling that you are not really committed to them, so why should they accommodate your desire to possibly drop the PTE after the deadline? For what it's worth, I would treat the School B acceptance the same as I would an acceptance off the WL after 4/30, and I'd go by School B's deadline for dropping the extra acceptance without seeking permission from School A, which you don't need, and whose acceptance you might be jeopardizing just by asking.
Dang, I already withdrew from school b by the portal because I thought I was violating the rules. Didn't want to end up with automatic rescinded a's. I sent an email to the dean immediately after explaining the situation once more and asked to be made eligible for an extension if possible ut not sure if it works that way, especially if they call another applicant into my place. I've tried calling multiple times again thai morning, but now answer.
Ohhhh shoot. I was under the impression that school a could see school b!
Well it wasnt that I wasnt committed but that I wanted to get a match on the award offer I received.
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Oh, I totally understand what you are doing. I'm just saying what it might look like to School A. At the end of the day, they certainly should just give you the two weeks, but we all know schools act in their own interest rather than that of the students. I just don't see the benefit of stirring the pot unnecessarily with them, out of some paranoia that they could see an A that they can't see.
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I know!!! A lot of people don't understand this. They can only see PTE/CTE -- they can't see As and WLs!!!
I completely hear you. I'm in contact with other committed applicants and there was a lot of talk about how you had to drop A's unless you got permission from both schools. Otherwise their system can automatically rescind your offer.
Yes, it's so cconfusing! I wish I saw this thread last night. I think the loophole is that they can see if you pte'd to another school, which I didnt event know you could do. But like you said, they can't see A's.
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It's hard because it's very convoluted and everyone has an opinion while only some people have a good understanding of how the system works!
There is a very simple way to look at it -- the system is designed to enable enforcement by the schools, since AAMC thinks it might have legal liability if it gets involved. Due to antitrust concerns, schools can't see whether, or where, you hold other As or WLs. They need to see PTE/CTE so they can enforce their rules, only after 4/30, but it's not a loophole. It's necessary -- if they couldn't see it, you could hold whatever you have for as long as you wanted!
People get confused because only schools where you have an A or WL can see PTE/CTE (if you are R or not yet have a decision, they can't see anything because they have no reason to - there is nothing to enforce with respect to you), but it doesn't work the other way around.
As I said before, AAMC refuses to be involved, so the "system" doesn't rescind anything, automatically or otherwise. It merely allows schools to run reports so they can rescind or take whatever other action they deem necessary. Every school where you have an A or a WL can see after 4/30 whether you are PTE at their school or another (unidentified) school. That's it! School B could see that you are PTE at another school, and that's okay, because they explicitly said you can do that until 5/15. School A could run the same report, and see that you are PTE at School A. Period, end of story.
School A hasn't given you an extension, and has no reason to give you one to give you time to see what happens with your scholarship at School B. The good news is that you don't need an extension from them, because you have met their requirement to PTE or withdraw by 4/30. If you drop it later in response to a better offer (from School B or anyone else) that is perfectly permissible and is contemplated by the provision in the rules that allow you to hold multiple WLs after 4/30.
I hope things work out for you at School B, and I'd take as much time as I needed to make a good decision. Hopefully, School A won't force your hand too soon, and also, hopefully, other people here will read this and learn from it! 🙂
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This is really dependent on the specific school, some of them require you to PTE and withdraw from all other schools, see Tufts for example: Title
I think the issue for AsprDoc was that it wasn't clear if withdrawing was required.
Thanks! Can I PM you?
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Feel free!
Just PM'ed you! Sorry it took so long, but need help asap so feel free to read when you have the time.
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Yes -- my point is simply that even if it's "required," it's totally unenforceable, so applicants really owe it to themselves to act in their own best interest since the schools certainly act in theirs. That Tufts page just references what's on the AAMC website. It does not address the situation where another school gives you an extension while working on aid/scholarships. That is a clear exception to the general rule, and it is not up to Tufts (or any other school) to tell any applicant that they cannot avail themselves of an extension granted by another school, for whatever reason.
Bottom line -- nobody needs School A's permission to hold another A under an extension from another school. It is analogous to an acceptance off a WL, which you can hold along with a PTE acceptance as long as the WL school allows you to -- you don't need permission from the PTE school to do so.
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I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree. Regardless of where Tufts got their language, it's pretty clear cut: when you select PTE, you must decline all other offers, but you may remain on waitlists. Sure, there's no way to enforce that in the current system, but it's not a good idea IMO to violate any admissions policies.
I definitely hear you that we should be looking out for ourselves wherever we can. But the schools hold all the cards, and I don't think it's worth the risk.
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You are, of course, correct, but what happens when one of the WLs you are on makes an offer, and gives you two weeks to decide? Can you hold both offers for the two weeks and still be in compliance with Tufts' rule? If so, what's the difference? Why would I need Tufts' permission to hold an offer from another school under an extension while awaiting a financial aid or scholarship determination any more than I would need their permission to hold a WL acceptance for any period of time?
I honestly do not think the policy you are referring to includes situations where you have an extension from the other school, since the policy contemplates enforcement by the other school. In general, you cannot hold more than one A after 4/30, because you can only PTE to one school at a time, and the other schools where you hold As would know you are not PTE to them. The generally accepted exception is recent WL acceptances, and by, extension, any school that has granted you a deadline extension since, for all intents and purposes, both situations are indistinguishable and certainly shouldn't make a difference to the PTE schools.
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Practically speaking, you're right, I don't think anything's going to happen. And thinking about this reasonably, you're right as well, there's no real difference between an A on 4/29 and a WL->A on 5/2. The thing is that, as the policy is written, interpreted strictly, there is a difference. And if a school were to reject someone who PTE'd to them and held another A, they would legally be protected, whereas they would be exposed if they rejected someone who followed their policies to the letter.
The chances of anything like this happening are incredibly low. But you never know...
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I'm pretty sure we are both saying exactly the same thing. 🙂 Although I always considered myself risk averse, I might actaully be a little more risk tolerant than you!!
Even AAMC's protocols provide that candidates should have at least two weeks on or before 4/30, so the Tufts policy would conflict with that, if taken literally, which I do not think is the intent. I also think, although @gonnif likes to stress that applicants are entitled to NOTHING, that many schools do understand that price transparency regarding a mid-six figure investment is not unreasonable, and are pretty liberal in granting deadline extensions if they cannot provide financial information in a timely manner.
I just don't think the risk is real that a school like Tufts would rescind an A because someone PTEd there held another acceptance after 4/30 because they received it after 4/17, or because they were still waiting for COA information under an extension, and didn't seek Tufts' blessing, and that's given the unlikely happens and they actually learn about it. I believe these are widely generally accepted exceptions to the general rule governed by the policy.
This is not a situation in which someone is just screwing around and ignoring the protocols and getting caught, and, scare anecdotes notwithstanding, I don't think any of @gonnif's horror stories involve a situation in which someone has an extension past 4/30, either by protocol (acceptance after mid-April) or exception, has PTEd to one school under the protocol, and is still within the extension period granted by the other school. I would love to be corrected if I misunderstood something and a situation like this has actually blown up in someone's face because they didn't seek the blessing of the PTE school to act within the spirit of the protocols and still hold two As after 4/30.
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I wasn't referring to your general, well advised, very conservative warnings -- I am specifically referring to your 1% that do come to pass.
Do you have a single example of someone PTEd at a school losing that acceptance because they held another acceptance after 4/30, either because they were accepted: (i) off a WL and had however much time to make a decision (possibly including extensions); (ii) after mid-April and had their decision window extend past 4/30; or (iii) before or after 4/30 and had an extension pending FA information, and did not seek or receive permission from the PTE school to hold the acceptance?
I do not believe any of those circumstances, one of which is the situation presented by @AsprDoc, constitutes a violation of the protocols or presents even a low, low, low risk under the so-called rules. Other than saying everything is a risk because schools can do anything at all with impunity because med school admissions is a seller's market and applicants are all fungible widgets in their machine, what am I missing?
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And I honestly love you for your concern for all of us, since I realize you have our best interests at heart. My issue is that, the more I learn, the more cynical I become with respect to the motivations and actions of the schools themselves. With some exceptions, they treat us like crap during the process. You don't sugarcoat it for us, and I appreciate that.
So, given that they treat us like crap and are really only interested in filling their classes with the best possible candidates, without regard to our best interests, we really do have to look out for ourselves. You have shown that you understand this new process, and the reports available to the schools under it, better than just about everyone else.
So, to clarify for everyone reading, notwithstanding any self-serving unilateral school specific policy to the contrary, exactly what report or other sort of information is available to a school, either before or after 4/30, that gives them any information regarding any candidate, other than, after 4/30, that the candidate has selected an unidentified schools as either PTE or CTE? Assuming the answer is "none," why the hell should anyone tell a PTE school about WLs, other As, other As off of WLs, or anything else that might be used against us, if the other school is allowing us to hold that other A while FA is pending, or just because they are nice and have consented to give us more time???????
I get why PTE schools want to know RIGHT NOW everything that is going on with us so they can decide whether or not to rescind, or whether or not our seat might become vacant in the near future, but I don't understand why we are expected, under so-called "proper process," to provide information above and beyond what their collective AMCAS has deigned appropriate to provide them, just because they unilaterally demand it, with no means to enforce that demand other than by terrorizing us into compliance with horrible consequences in the one in a million chance that they stumble upon information that neither we, nor AMCAS, nor the other schools are providing to them under fear of some kind of antitrust action, which is why they no longer have a MAR or access to this information in the first place!
You have first hand knowledge of people not complying with PTE/CTE deadlines and suffering terrible adverse consequences, but you still haven't provided a single example of someone selecting PTE within the required time while holding another A at another school, with that other school's permission, and losing either A while deciding what to do within the time frame allowed by the second school. Or did I misunderstand?
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Thanks for the honest answer. And again, for the record, I am not even asking about missing the 4/30 deadline -- the question from a few different people involved people MEETING the 4/30 PTE deadline, but keeping another A after 4/30, with the other school's permission, either because they were waiting for FA information or because they received the A shortly before 4/30.
The questions were whether they needed to tell the PTE school (because PTE means drop all other As after 4/30) and seek their permission to do what the other school was allowing. I said "no," because the extension from the other school does not require "permission" from the PTE school, but you and others said "yes," because failure to receive such permission risked possibly losing both As due to violating the "rules," even though the reports available from the CYMS tool specifically prevent the PTE schools from seeing other As or WLs.
This fact is widely misunderstood by most candidates, which causes them to worry needlessly about acting in their own best interests and interfering with the PTE schools' ability to prevent them from pursuing legitimate opportunities after 4/30, which is the exact result contemplated when AMCAS chose not to give the PTE schools this information. Scaring the crap out of people, and causing them to second guess the wisdom of chasing scholarship money after 4/30 because a PTE school might get pissed if they found out about it, when it is nearly impossible for them to find out, and might very well become the very antitrust violation AAMC feared in redesigning the system if they did find out from a source other than the candidate him or herself, and then use that information to rescind an A because a candidate held another A after 4/30 with another school's permission to do so, really does a disservice to everyone you are clearly trying to help here.
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I need some advice/reassurance. I withdrew my acceptances from all my other schools, but forgot that I had to update AAMC with my plan to enroll school X. My schools deadline for PTE was May 15th (extended because of Corona) while the CTE isn't until mid July. I realized this today after I saw someone mentioning it and I immediately got onto AAMC and updated my application and chose (commit to enroll) with my school. It was also the only school I had available to choose from. Since I wasn't holding multiple acceptances and the choice to still plan to enroll/commit to my medical school was still an option do you think I will have any issues? I will call the admissions department immediately in the morning, but my heart has been in my stomach all day. @gonnif @gyngyn @Med Ed
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Probably not. The issue might arise if the school were very over-enrolled and was looking to eliminate as many candidates as possible.
anotherhotpremed
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anotherhotpremed
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Can I PTE at one school, then change it to a different school? IDK why I am so confused
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my memory from last year says you can PTE at one school and then change to another later as long as you don't select CTE, but I would double check with AMCAS!
anotherhotpremed
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Thx. So let's say I PTE at school A today, does that mean I have to withdraw from my other acceptances ASAP or just wait until 4/30 to withdraw?
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You really should be contacting the individual schools about this. Different schools have different guidelines, regardless of what the AAMC choose your medical school tool requires.
Edit: To answer that question though, if you select PTE right now, you don’t have to withdraw from your other acceptances ASAP. You can wait until 04/30, or just not tell them anything and you’ll be automatically withdrawn (although you really should formally withdraw)
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You can literally do anything you want until 4/30, because no one can connect your selection back to you until then. It is not binding and can be changed an unlimited number of times. I honestly don't understand why anyone does it at all before 4/30, unless they only have one A or are afraid they will otherwise forget to do it when required.
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Yes!!!! Except definitely do something, even without fin aid, by 4/30.
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This^^^^. CTE isn't even available until 4/30, but, yeah, that's irrevocable unless you are going to break the commitment and the other school is willing to go along with it. PTE can be changed an unlimited number of times, even after 4/30 as you are called off WLs.
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You don't have to do anything until 4/30. If you make a PTE selection before then, no school will even be able to see that you have done so.
Your selection will only appear in an aggregate report that can be run by each school where you hold an A, where you will be part of a population report of people who have selected PTE at their school or at another school. That's it!!!!
No one even expects you to start culling the herd until 4/15, when they want you to reduce to 3 As, but, even then, there is no enforcement until 4/30. On 4/30, most schools expect you to reduce to one A and unlimited WLs, and to select that A as PTE. THIS can be enforced since on 4/30 schools can run reports to identify who has selected PTE.
This is also where you have to be careful, because schools can and do rescind As if you don't comply. You also need to know what the CTE deadline is, which varies by school and can be as early as 4/30. CTE is a binding commitment, and requires you to withdraw from all WLs. Again, you risk having your As rescinded if you don't comply, and schools can run reports to check compliance.
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I don't believe so. At least, not during last year's cycle
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Thank you for this thorough explanation. I'll wait until 4/30 to make any decisions. I am just afraid of picking a school by 4/30 and withdrawing my other acceptances only to end up with crappy fin aid.
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You didn't ask, but I wouldn't wait until the VERY end, just in case you have a computer or internet problem. I'd make at least a preliminary selection sometime that last week in April.
Also, while @gonnif is very found of advising us that it's a sellers' market, and we are lucky just to be allowed to breathe the same air as the adcoms, and that we are entitled to NOTHING, I happen to believe that common decency and basic levels of consumer disclosure dictate that we be informed regarding net pricing before being compelled to make a decision.
If it were me (next year, hopefully, it will be! 🙂), I'd reach out to every school that didn't tell me about aid by that last week in April and politely but insistently ask for either an aid package OR an extension on the 4/30 deadline. As has been stated elsewhere, the protocols are mere guidelines, and individual schools are free to deviate as they see fit.
You certainly don't need every school's permission to accept a deadline extension from one or more schools, and, from threads in past years, I don't think it's uncommon for people to hold multiple As after 4/30 while waiting for fin aid. The key is to not just do it without getting permission from the schools withholding the aid information, since that's just asking for trouble, and could very well result in having an A rescinded. Just keep in mind that the CYMS reports after 4/30 identify whether you have selected PTE or CTE. They do NOT identify whether you hold As or WLs!!!!
I would try to avoid withdrawing anything without an answer. On the other hand, if they won't either give you an answer or an extension, that tells you something about how much they want you and how they treat their students. That would make the decision to drop a little easier for me. 🙂
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anotherhotpremed
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Wise wise words. I'll PTE on the 28th or something ahahha.
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Tomato, tomahto!!!
If supply/demand were more in balance, they'd all somehow find a way to treat us like human beings.That said, it's not my issue, I won't take it personally, and I won't let it bother me. I'm not in love with "we all start out rejected," (as opposed to we just all start out nowhere! 🙂), but you and your esteemed colleagues have conditioned me over the past few years to expect nothing, so I know exactly what to expect and am not going to allow myself to get bent out of shape over the lack of basic courtesy and communication in return for my secondary fee. It is what it is, the schools with a culture of fully leveraging the sellers' market to treat the masses who fund their admissions offices like crap are not going to change, and my choice as a prospective applicant is to accept it or move on because it is not going to change in the current environment.
Hopefully, though, as a decent guy who donates a lot of time to helping people navigate the process for no compensation, other than the warm and fuzzies you get from sharing what you know, you'll agree that there really should be a rule regarding forcing people to make decisions without price transparency, even in a sellers' market. Regulation serves a useful purpose in all kinds of situations, like price gouging in a natural disaster or forcing airlines to include all required fees in the prices they quote.
Maybe, even in a hyper competitive sellers' market, schools should not be allowed to compel binding decisions before providing financial aid (net pricing) information? Given how worked up many administrators get over ethics, it's more than a little ironic how easily they abuse their market power when it is to their advantage to do so. TBH, it's a powerful justification for applicants to act in kind when the opportunity presents itself.
Personally, if a school forced me to make decision without fin aid information, and another school allowed me to hold an A after the deadline, pending receipt of that information, I would not hesitate to hold both As, to give the first school the PTE or CTE it so desperately sought, and I wouldn't give a s**t about violating the "rules" by doing so and later changing plans after receiving inadequate fin aid. Remember, while some schools might honestly have trouble pushing information out the door (which they honestly should throw resources at to address, rather than making it an admitted applicant problem), others might actually intentionally delay release of the information in order to minimize or eliminate our ability to compare packages. It really doesn't get more unethical than that.
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