Planes2Doc's Ultimate Guide to Final Fantasy 7, Medical School Purgatory, & Typical Pre-Med Missteps

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Tenk said:
F that. Getting into med school is like DOOM where a 4.0 and a 45 on the old MCAT was like picking up the BFG-9000 and people like Goro and LizzyM are the cyberdemon and spider mastermind. Rip and tear.
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:p :D :p
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BombsAway said:
Your blackjack thread set me on the right path a while back. This is more good stuff.

For all dissenters: don't hate the player, hate the game.
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Thanks! I'm glad. I was actually texting back and forth this morning with my favorite medical student and mentioned casinos with their house rules. I'm just trying to help people make the most of the current system. People are free to do or not do whatever they wish in their free time. :)
 
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Planes2Doc said:
Thanks! I'm glad. I was actually texting back and forth this morning with my favorite medical student and mentioned casinos with their house rules. I'm just trying to help people make the most of the current system. People are free to do or not do whatever they wish in their free time. :)
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the only thing i'd add to the advice is that you get bonus xp points if you can make all your quests fit a common theme so that it all looks like a logical progression. This way, your app reads like a story with a logical next step of medicine.
 
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This is one of the greatest things I've ever read on SDN. Lost it at the DC-10 joke.
 
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BombsAway said:
the only thing i'd add to the advice is that you get bonus xp points if you can make all your quests fit a common theme so that it all looks like a logical progression. This way, your app reads like a story with a logical next step of medicine.
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Yep. On one of my earlier threads, I suggested that people start hospital volunteering before college in order to look better. But nonetheless, no one bats an eye if things start immediately after starting freshman year of college.
 
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Lost in Translation said:
This is one of the greatest things I've ever read on SDN. Lost it at the DC-10 joke.
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Thanks! Despite the awful record it had, I still think the DC-10 and MD-11 were some of the finest looking planes of all time. When I flew Delta, one of the flight attendants called it the Death Cruiser 10, and then I heard my former coworkers at Southwest call the MD-11 the More Death 11.
 
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Planes2Doc said:
Going to a better school with a good reputation makes you feel pretty good about yourself. People still ask where I went to undergrad, and I'm proud of it. Back when I was at Northwestern, there was actually lots of grade inflation. The basic sciences were always considered tough. General chemistry was a weeder and people did Harvard summer classes in order to avoid it. I'd be surprised if things have changed.

Anyway, a lot of BS/MD programs are weaker schools that attempt to attract top talent. For instance, UIC has one that tries poaching students that otherwise would have gone to Northwestern, University of Chicago, or UIUC if we're talking strictly about Illinois. Back when I was in high school, UIC based this on class rank, so I would not have been accepted to the BS/MD program since I went to a very competitive high school on the north shore. It did prepare me very well for college, so it was a double-edged sword.
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Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is lets pretend you're a high school student who is decently smart and got into NU and UIC. Knowing what I do now, I might recommend UIC more unless you're an exceptionally stellar student. Given that most premed weedout classes are curved in some way, you will be more likely to make great grades and stand out at a state school.
 
Smelt said:
Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is lets pretend you're a high school student who is decently smart and got into NU and UIC. Knowing what I do now, I might recommend UIC more unless you're an exceptionally stellar student. Given that most premed weedout classes are curved in some way, you will be more likely to make great grades and stand out at a state school.
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The differences in schools creates quite the dilemma. First of all, the ranking of an undergraduate school isn't too important for medical schools. They care more about your GPA and MCAT. But if you are pre-med, and then eventually decide to call it quits. Then coming from a good school would be in your best interest. If you look at the top companies in Chicago for banking and consulting, they are usually hiring Northwestern and University of Chicago grads, not UIC or DePaul grads. Also, while one school might be generally easier than another, it really comes down to professor quality. You can have a really hard orgo professor at UIC, but a really easy one at Northwestern. There's lots of factors.

But if you're accepted into a BS/MD program, then yes, it's a no-brainer.
 
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Great piece!

Meet Brian, he's a pretty nice guy. I met him in my general biology during my post-bacc. He was a freshman at the time, and was his first science class. I sat next to him in class, and we became friendly. He was a biology major, and had aspirations to work as a cardio thoracic surgeon. Today he works an EMT (he did not work as an EMT during undergrad). Brian was for most part following the linear path of what most pre-meds do. He was a biology major, started volunteering once weekly in a hospital, and was studying. Unfortunately for him, biology started off kind of rough. He ended up with a D in the class, and was relieved that he passed. At this point of the game (or even earlier), lots of college students would call it quits with pre-med. They would pick up other majors, and move on with their lives. Brian continued with the pre-med courses, volunteering, and shadowed some physicians along the way. He took the MCAT (never told me his score), but I'm assuming his grades didn't allow him to get in. During his senior year, he became a research assistant and then became an EMT after graduation. To this day, he is an EMT and not in medical school.
.....
The takeaway message: Knowing when to quit is important. The further you linger in the pre-med process, the more doors you shut on reasonable future careers. If you get your ass absolutely handed to you in your first science class and you can't seem to handle the material, get out now! In fact, you should have gotten out yesterday.

I think in this specific case your advice of quitting is warranted, especially if someone works reasonably hard and gets a D at the end of the class, but I think it's important to also emphasize when not to quit and to instead learn to improve.

I've raised many C's/B's to A's over the course of the semester. Also I had two buddies both raise C's to serviceable B+'s in organic as well. A lot of this was through addressing test-anxiety, doing practice problems under timed conditions, and visiting tutoring.

Another misstep I'd say is quitting too early, when the potential for better problem solving and study habits are still there. A C or low B after exam 1 ain't necessarily fatal and may be addressed if you work on yourself as a student.
 
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altblue said:
Great piece!

Meet Brian, he's a pretty nice guy. I met him in my general biology during my post-bacc. He was a freshman at the time, and was his first science class. I sat next to him in class, and we became friendly. He was a biology major, and had aspirations to work as a cardio thoracic surgeon. Today he works an EMT (he did not work as an EMT during undergrad). Brian was for most part following the linear path of what most pre-meds do. He was a biology major, started volunteering once weekly in a hospital, and was studying. Unfortunately for him, biology started off kind of rough. He ended up with a D in the class, and was relieved that he passed. At this point of the game (or even earlier), lots of college students would call it quits with pre-med. They would pick up other majors, and move on with their lives. Brian continued with the pre-med courses, volunteering, and shadowed some physicians along the way. He took the MCAT (never told me his score), but I'm assuming his grades didn't allow him to get in. During his senior year, he became a research assistant and then became an EMT after graduation. To this day, he is an EMT and not in medical school.
.....
The takeaway message: Knowing when to quit is important. The further you linger in the pre-med process, the more doors you shut on reasonable future careers. If you get your ass absolutely handed to you in your first science class and you can't seem to handle the material, get out now! In fact, you should have gotten out yesterday.

I think in this specific case your advice of quitting is warranted, especially if someone works reasonably hard and gets a D at the end of the class, but I think it's important to also emphasize when not to quit and to instead learn to improve.

I've raised many C's/B's to A's over the course of the semester. Also I had two buddies both raise C's to serviceable B+'s in organic as well. A lot of this was through addressing test-anxiety, doing practice problems under timed conditions, and visiting tutoring.

Another misstep I'd say is quitting too early, when the potential for better problem solving and study habits are still there. A C or low B after exam 1 ain't necessarily fatal and may be addressed if you work on yourself as a student.
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This is a very good point. Students should take a realistic look at themselves and see why exactly they are doing poorly in the class. Are they going out too much and not studying enough, are they studying the wrong way, or can they simply not handle the material? All of these need to be corrected, but it's easier to correct poor habits than somehow make yourself understand material that might be over your head. Medical school material itself isn't very hard aside from some physiology aspects, but the volume will be killer to people that don't study properly. It's best to be realistic with one's self early on than later. While not exactly medical school, I know someone that got accepted to the University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign for nuclear and plasma engineering. He could not handle it, was expelled, and ended up getting his LPN. While I was interested in materials science and engineering in undergrad, I knew I could never do it because I am not very good at math.

Congratulations on the big improvements in your and your friends' grades! This is something to be very proud of, and should be looked at favorably by ADCOMs.
 
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@Planes2Doc Did you parents financially support you throughout your four years of university including your post-bac?
 
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Planes2Doc said:
Yeah they did for undergrad. During my post-bacc, I took out loans for tuition and used up the money I saved from my first airline job.
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Do you really think these people really get lost in side quests because they can't face reality? I always thought that the reality of the situation that they have to settle to doing side quests in order to continue playing the game.
 
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Pina Colada said:
Do you really think these people really get lost in side quests because they can't face reality? I always thought that the reality of the situation that they have to settle to doing side quests in order to continue playing the game.
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I hope I'm understanding and answering your question correctly.

What people choose to do for side-quests is up to them. I know people that did work study or worked service jobs in college. The ones that did work study were often studying on their shifts, and people that worked service jobs had convenient work days and hours (I did the latter during undergrad as a pizza delivery driver). Entry-level clinical jobs often involve long shifts and sometimes at odd hours. During my emergency medicine rotation, I saw young college students working as ED techs during the long night shifts. I can't imagine how bad that was for their academics.

Sometimes taking the loans out and not working is the way to go. Debt sucks. But failing horribly and then still having that debt to pay off sucks way more.

As for admissions itself, the number of side-quests required is minimal. People that are realistic with themselves and their expectations that find a once weekly hospital volunteer shift where they spend 75%+ of that time hiding away studying for school are getting the best bang for the buck.
 
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calivianya said:
Excellent posts. Lots of good information. :)

I wonder how you feel about non-entry-level healthcare positions. I'm just a nurse, but I do the rapid response team at a non-teaching hospital. We don't have residents or attendings on the RRT; it's just me and a respiratory therapist. I have a set of protocols and things that I use, but I can use those without calling anyone to make decisions. Patient looks fluid overloaded? I order a CXR, BNP, BiPAP, and and call bed control stat for a tx to ICU or stepdown, depending on how bad the patient looks/how compromised I think the respiratory status is... but I can't order Lasix, go figure.

I can make any ACLS decisions independently. More than once I've cardioverted with adenosine at the bedside with just the staff nurses of the unit helping me out, if I've decided that's what they need. I try to call the physicians and give them a heads up about what I'm about to do, but if it's going to take them a while to get there, I'm not going to wait for them and watch the patient decompensate first.

This sort of decision-making experience has got to be looked on positively, right? In general, when I'm doing direct patient care, our protocols are so extensive that depending on the protocol ordered, I can order vasopressors, blood, etc. without ever calling anyone. I feel like I have at least a marginal advantage over first year med students because I am used to managing emergencies relatively independently, but I could just be delusional.
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That's a pretty good point. You're a nurse though, which is not an entry-level clinical job. It's something that people go to school for and set out to do as a career. There is some overlap with what nurses and doctors do, but nurses that go to medical school are career changers, and not just pre-meds doing a minimum wage job as a stepping stone. As a nurse, you will have plenty of clinical knowledge going in which is good. But regardless, medical school still starts everyone at step zero. It will then be board scores and clinical grades that determine residency, not having prior clinical skills.
 
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@Planes2Doc Very helpful advice.

I want to be the individual who changes paths early on or who gets into medical school but it's rough when we don't have clear lines drawn.

What exactly should be a grade in say Organic Chemistry for kids to just stop and pursue a different path?

I ask because I have a very mediocre GPA however I don't know if I should call it quits yet.
 
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Sunbodi said:
@Planes2Doc Very helpful advice.

I want to be the individual who changes paths early on or who gets into medical school but it's rough when we don't have clear lines drawn.

What exactly should be a grade in say Organic Chemistry for kids to just stop and pursue a different path?

I ask because I have a very mediocre GPA however I don't know if I should call it quits yet.
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Thanks! I think it depends on the rest of your application as a whole. One grade isn’t going to make or break it. D or worse would make things difficult, but with a C you’ll still be in the running. You can try to prop up your sGPA with filler courses and work on ECs.

If you are having a rough time with things like general biology and just can’t handle the rigors of the lower-level science classes, it may be time to possibly reconsider.
 
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I appreciate you taking the time to write this.
 
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Great post, definitely helps lots of people and is very well written with tons of awesome points, take home messages, etc.
However, I do not really agree with your point about knowing when to quit and the example of the guy making a D in freshman biology. There are certainly times when you do have to know when to quit (If you make D's in both freshman bios, freshman chem, and first semester ochem), but there are also many times when you shouldn't just quit b/c you did bad in an "easier course" that others did well in, especially at the start of college where tons of people struggle.
My pathway to getting accepted into medical school is proof that you shouldn't give up that easily. I took a PRE-REQ for normal freshman biology my freshman year. Not even the actual freshman biology. This class was supposed to be a joke, almost. I had NO clue how to study and I BARELY made it through. I had a D, but it got curved to an extremely low C. I also made a low C in the lab, and I made a low C in an intro "easy" math class. So all in all after my freshman year, on paper, it looked like i BOMBED school and was told by people that i clearly couldn't handle the "pre med" classes.
This pissed me off and I began to work harder and SLOWLY made progress. Its not like I woke up one day and magically made A's in cell bio, ochem, etc. It took me years to figure out how to study and work through difficult classes, but by my last semester of college I was making all A's in all the difficult science classes.
I also made in the 18th percentile on the MCAT my first time and was told then to give up too. I told those people to can it and I studied my tail off, and did much better on the MCAT the second time.
My point is that, yes, there are times when some people should clearly quit, but that time isn't necessarily after you do poor in one or two freshman biology classes.
I have been accepted into a very solid American MD school and I owe that acceptance to my determination to not give up even when people told me I was not good enough.
Just some encouragement for people who have similar stories to mine.
 
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godawgz said:
Great post, definitely helps lots of people and is very well written with tons of awesome points, take home messages, etc.
However, I do not really agree with your point about knowing when to quit and the example of the guy making a D in freshman biology. There are certainly times when you do have to know when to quit (If you make D's in both freshman bios, freshman chem, and first semester ochem), but there are also many times when you shouldn't just quit b/c you did bad in an "easier course" that others did well in, especially at the start of college where tons of people struggle.
My pathway to getting accepted into medical school is proof that you shouldn't give up that easily. I took a PRE-REQ for normal freshman biology my freshman year. Not even the actual freshman biology. This class was supposed to be a joke, almost. I had NO clue how to study and I BARELY made it through. I had a D, but it got curved to an extremely low C. I also made a low C in the lab, and I made a low C in an intro "easy" math class. So all in all after my freshman year, on paper, it looked like i BOMBED school and was told by people that i clearly couldn't handle the "pre med" classes.
This pissed me off and I began to work harder and SLOWLY made progress. Its not like I woke up one day and magically made A's in cell bio, ochem, etc. It took me years to figure out how to study and work through difficult classes, but by my last semester of college I was making all A's in all the difficult science classes.
I also made in the 18th percentile on the MCAT my first time and was told then to give up too. I told those people to can it and I studied my tail off, and did much better on the MCAT the second time.
My point is that, yes, there are times when some people should clearly quit, but that time isn't necessarily after you do poor in one or two freshman biology classes.
I have been accepted into a very solid American MD school and I owe that acceptance to my determination to not give up even when people told me I was not good enough.
Just some encouragement for people who have similar stories to mine.
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Congratulations!!! It's awesome that your perseverance has worked out really well for you. I do know of some success stories where the underdog had won. In general though, a lot of people that end up struggling and are unable to improve their grades will end up faltering. Unless they have this kind of determination (I think a lot of people would have called it quits after the first MCAT score you had), then it is going to be futile. Some may eventually get into a no-name Caribbean school, and this will leave them with insane amounts of debt. I've heard of some success stories, but having done my post-bacc at a "pre-med factory," I saw way more people not getting in. It sucks to see a couple people I know underemployed years later because they didn't know when to quit. There is definitely no one-size-fits-all for medicine. You are completely correct about that. Someone who nearly fails out of school as a freshman can turn things around and become a success story. A Valedictorian in college with stellar MCAT can fail out of an Ivy League medical school.

Also, when I was applying to medical school, things were different...

The AACOMAS had grade-forgiveness.

The MCAT was simpler and out of 45.

Hour-intensive entry-level clinical jobs like scribing were not a thing.

US medical school slots did not exceed residency slots.

None of these work in favor of today's applicants...
 
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Planes2Doc said:
Congratulations!!! It's awesome that your perseverance has worked out really well for you. I do know of some success stories where the underdog had won. In general though, a lot of people that end up struggling and are unable to improve their grades will end up faltering. Unless they have this kind of determination (I think a lot of people would have called it quits after the first MCAT score you had), then it is going to be futile. Some may eventually get into a no-name Caribbean school, and this will leave them with insane amounts of debt. I've heard of some success stories, but having done my post-bacc at a "pre-med factory," I saw way more people not getting in. It sucks to see a couple people I know underemployed years later because they didn't know when to quit. There is definitely no one-size-fits-all for medicine. You are completely correct about that. Someone who nearly fails out of school as a freshman can turn things around and become a success story. A Valedictorian in college with stellar MCAT can fail out of an Ivy League medical school.

Also, when I was applying to medical school, things were different...

The AACOMAS had grade-forgiveness.

The MCAT was simpler and out of 45.

Hour-intensive entry-level clinical jobs like scribing were not a thing.

US medical school slots did not exceed residency slots.

None of these work in favor of today's applicants...
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I completely agree. Also really agree with what you said about the Caribbean school issue. Not a fan of this idea AT ALL. Wayyyy to risky and I have heard horror stories about failing boards, not matching, failing out, etc. Obviously plenty of people have made it through those schools and done well, but I think it is changing for the worse in todays pre med world.
Anyways, I appreciate the time you spend in writing your original post and for your reply to my post. It is very good advice and I am sure it really helps people out, especially in the early pre-med years.
Best of luck with your career!
 
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Pure gold.

I’ve lost all cool with people who keep arguing about how their entry-level job/ shadowing experience is the best thing in the world :bag:

You either made it to your professional school of choice or not, and there are many ways of getting there; neither one being superior to others
 
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godawgz said:
I completely agree. Also really agree with what you said about the Caribbean school issue. Not a fan of this idea AT ALL. Wayyyy to risky and I have heard horror stories about failing boards, not matching, failing out, etc. Obviously plenty of people have made it through those schools and done well, but I think it is changing for the worse in todays pre med world.
Anyways, I appreciate the time you spend in writing your original post and for your reply to my post. It is very good advice and I am sure it really helps people out, especially in the early pre-med years.
Best of luck with your career!
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Thanks for the kind words and well-wishes! One of the greatest interns I have ever worked with is from the Caribbean, but yes, it's definitely an uphill battle especially now.
 
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allantois said:
Pure gold.

I’ve lost all cool with people who keep arguing about how their entry-level job/ shadowing experience is the best thing in the world :bag:

You either made it to your professional school of choice or not, and there are many ways of getting there; neither one being superior to others
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Back when I was a pre-med, it was actually people trying to one up each other on volunteering. It pretty much came down to "my volunteering is more superior to your volunteering." If you take a step back and really think about it, it comes off as bizarre. I can only imagine what people are saying about their work experiences. No one ever talked about these things once they were actually in medical school though, which is even more why I don't understand this whole argument.
 
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OP, I think you're an engaging writer and make many valid points. Maybe you should dispense this advice officially somewhere; I think Cal Newporrt did something similar with undergrad admissions. I went to one of the IB-favored schools that you mentioned and I have noticed similar behavior from successful premeds. Be efficient and effective.
 
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ExcitatorySynapse said:
OP, I think you're an engaging writer and make many valid points. Maybe you should dispense this advice officially somewhere; I think Cal Newporrt did something similar with undergrad admissions. I went to one of the IB-favored schools that you mentioned and I have noticed similar behavior from successful premeds. Be efficient and effective.
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Thanks! I'm actually working on some research with my program regarding ECs. I'm planning on kicking it into high-gear once my off-service rotations start in 2019. That is a good idea, and I am going to revisit the process when I'm an attending (most likely hospitalist) and see if there are any opportunities. :)
 
DrHart said:
I disagree with OP. I can appreciate the point of view but I just can't get on board with it. If you extrapolate this philosophy to other things in life, it becomes too narrow sighted and boring (at least in my opinion). If medical school is about the end result, so is residency. If residency is about the end result, is your entire career a means to an end? What is that end? Retirement? Death?

I'm totally on board for having goals and playing the game to reach those goals. Jumping through hoops and checking boxes is part of it. However, if you focus your entire career on playing this game, I think you'd end up miserable. Your statement that unsuccessful pre-meds/applicants will face difficult consequences assumes that they are only playing the game. I disagree. If pre-meds explore their interests outside of checking boxes, they'll have options to pursue if they don't get into medical school.

I appreciate your post and with all respect, your opinion is valid. However, I think your opinion is exactly at the core of what is wrong with today's premeds. It's the basis for the "what will the adcom think?" mentality. After years of experience, I'm certain that adcoms and interviewers can sniff this **** from a mile away. If your motivations are based on "getting into medical school" and not sincerely based in your interests and passions, I would argue that sets you up to face difficult consequences later down the line. Physician dissatisfaction and increasing physician suicide rates come to mind....

Hey congrats on another long ass post though
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He's asking premeds to be honest with themselves. If you just want to get into medical school, be efficient about it and don't lie to yourself. Once you're in, you'll find that maybe 70% of the class is those types, and that the real deal altruistic types are a minority. It's a game. The end goal is a career that makes you happy and for many, everything leading up to that career is simply a chore

I'm not one of those people, but I certainly don't look down upon them. Medicine is just a job, ultimately. If you want it to be anything more, that is a choice, just as someone at any other job can either pour in their heart and soul or just clock out without judgment either way
 
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