"Planning" to be non-trad

[Goh]

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Hi all, I'm finishing up undergrad this semester, will graduate in December, and I've decided to get a masters degree in public health and then work a few years in public health before considering medical school. So, it looks like ~5 years down the road, I will be a non-traditional applicant like you, if I do it at all.

I have some questions:

1. If I get letters of recommendation now, will they still be useful so far into the future?

2. I will be graduating with a neurobiology degree, with all pre-med prerequisites fulfilled. Does this mean I won't have to retake any pre-req courses at any point in the future? Does undegrad coursework ever "expire?"

3. I expect to have a cum GPA of 3.25, BCPM GPA of 3.15. If my grad GPA, work experience, and MCAT are all good in the future, do I have a shot at medical school?

4. What others challenges should I expect? What should I be planning for?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

[unsung]

If your ultimate goal is medical school, what makes you want to pursue a Master's in Public Health? I went for a Master's myself, but at the time I actually wasn't thinking of medical school. Anyway, I realize lots of folks do go for the Master's in Public Health as a prelude to medical school, but the word out is that the degree isn't THAT helpful for getting accepted.

For one thing, it's kind of expected that people come out of the program with sky high GPAs (fair or not, the coursework is not weighed on par with say a formal post-bacc in a "hard" science). So, the grad work wouldn't necessarily do much to buffer a low undergrad GPA.

If you're just seriously interested in public health, then go for it. But if you're thinking in terms of helping out your undergrad GPA, I'd suggest a post-bacc. Either a formal one or you could just make up your own by taking or retaking some sciences courses at the undergrad lvl. Retaking that C+ in o-chem or whatever and getting a solid A goes a long way, even w/ MD schools, which don't replace one grade with another.

Re: Questions

1. It can't hurt to ask for LORs now. Just store them on Interfolio. I've got all mine on there now and it's been so great being able to send out the LORs myself to schools instead of relying on some committee.

2. They "last" pretty long. Unlike with the MCAT scores (where there's a strict limit on how old they can be), schools seem more generous with regards to the pre-reqs. The only concern here is whether or not YOU will retain the info enough come time to take the MCAT. I retook some courses partly to boost my undergrad GPA and partly to study for the MCAT. Thinking back, retaking those courses really was essential to helping me get through the MCAT. This depends on how well you learned the material in the first place as well.

3. Good grad GPA is a great thing. It can't hurt you. But it won't necessarily help all that much either. Schools look at the two separately and to some extent *expect* a nice grad GPA, for a variety of reasons. So it would be to your benefit to further take courses at the undergrad lvl. Post-bacc courses at the undergrad lvl counts as part of your cumulative undergrad GPA, so it's quite possible to pull that up to say a 3.3 ish total, 3.2 ish BCPM. Of course, the more hours you take & ace, the better your situation will be.

4. Are you volunteering? If so, keep at it. If not, start asap. It's one of the things being a non-trad helps with... with all that time, we can accrue some nice volunteer hours. As for challenges... well, it's a long road ahead of you if you go this route. Moreover, the Master's in Public Health degree won't necessarily rescue your undergrad record all that much. Be wary. If you go this route and can get involved in some significant research, say some kind of clinical/community-based research, then that will help. One of the things beneficial with pursuing a grad degree is the opportunity to get involved in significant original research.

So it's a hard road ahead... and if your real ultimate goal is medical school, there may be better ways of getting there than to get a Master's in Public Health first. If otoh, you really just want to learn more about the field and have a genuine interest, then by all means go for it. I'm sure that interest will carry you to all sorts of interesting research opportunities that will definitely help you with med school, plus will be interesting in and of itself.

 

[Goh]

I have a lot of reservations about medical school at the moment, and my primary interest is health policy. It's an attitude that's a bit backward compared to those on these forums, but I see a future MD as a way of gaining more traction in public health, not the other way around.

Was it difficult to get back to studying undergrad hard science material after working for a while?

 

[Newmanium]

I have a lot of reservations about medical school at the moment, and my primary interest is health policy. It's an attitude that's a bit backward compared to those on these forums, but I see a future MD as a way of gaining more traction in public health, not the other way around.

Was it difficult to get back to studying undergrad hard science material after working for a while?

First semester was a bit painful for me when I took some time off (undergrad level) - after that it was fine. Plan ahead to ease into it, and you should be fine. It's just like exercise, takes a while to get back in the swing of things. If you'd be going straight into med school, it'd probably make sense to take some basic science classes as a refresher the year before just to get used to studying again.

Medical school will always be waiting for you. If you have doubts, I think it's wise to wait and try something else. Either you'll decide against medical school, or you'll get rid of any doubts (which will make things easier). For me, it was lawschool back when I was coming out of undergrad. I had lawyers encourage me to work for a few years if I wasn't 100% on the career - and I'm sure glad I did, because I realized I would have *hated* being a lawyer. You've got 30-40 years of work ahead of you, it's worth taking 3-5 years to find what you love.

Don't underestimate the danger of going into something like med school with doubts in the back of your head... they sap your energy when the road gets tough. Far better to investigate all the options, and feel confident in whatever you choose.

 

[DrMidlife]

I am THRILLED to see folks waiting to pursue medical school until AFTER they've had another career. I am also thrilled to see folks NOT apply until they're absolutely sure they want it, and until they have something ELSE to compare it to. If you're going to be applying in your late 20's, in my view, you're right on time.

1. If I get letters of recommendation now, will they still be useful so far into the future?

Mostly. I suggest also collecting recommendations whenever it's appropriate from here on out. So get some during your masters, get some from employers, and get some from faculty with whom you collaborate. Remember that a glowing, stunning LOR from a nobody beats a meh LOR from a somebody.

2. I will be graduating with a neurobiology degree, with all pre-med prerequisites fulfilled. Does this mean I won't have to retake any pre-req courses at any point in the future?

Yes, but you need at least a C in any prereq. You should plan on taking one or two more upper-div science classes just before you apply, so that you have fresh good grades in vicious subjects. Taking genetics or A&P as part of MCAT prep is a good idea too.

Does undegrad coursework ever "expire?"

Only at a minority of schools, such as UMass. In most cases, if they care at all about prereq age, this concern is addressed by recent difficult coursework in upper-div science.

3. I expect to have a cum GPA of 3.25, BCPM GPA of 3.15. If my grad GPA, work experience, and MCAT are all good in the future, do I have a shot at medical school?

Yes, but those GPAs are too low for an MD school, generally (see my mdapps). Furthermore, an MPH is NOT going to stand in place of rigorous hard science coursework - an MPH is a stellar extra-curricular, but it says little about your academic mettle from a med school perspective.

In your shoes, I would consider an alternative to the MPH, such as getting an MLT (usually a microbio degree with additional lab certification) where you take further undergrad science (and kill it) as a 2nd bachelors. You can still work in public health as a lab technician, and this also gets you closer to research experience. This would be the way you get your GPA into MD school range, over a 3.5 for comfort.

Or you can do what I did with a sub-par GPA, good MCAT and killer ECs, and opt to go to DO school instead of getting your GPA up over 3.5.

4. What others challenges should I expect? What should I be planning for?

Think about:
- when to take the MCAT: scores expire in ~3 years, plan on a minimum of 3 months of prep
- debt load management
- family planning (infinite options and opinions on this)
- being 10 years older than your fellow med students and thus not necessarily having them as an automatic social network
- focus on public medical schools: they're cheaper and it matters
- make sure that you follow your interests with passion, so that you're fun to interview down the road
- get exposure to underserved populations

Best of luck to you, and do keep us posted.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hi all, I'm finishing up undergrad this semester, will graduate in December, and I've decided to get a masters degree in public health and then work a few years in public health before considering medical school. So, it looks like ~5 years down the road, I will be a non-traditional applicant like you, if I do it at all.

I have some questions:

1. If I get letters of recommendation now, will they still be useful so far into the future?

2. I will be graduating with a neurobiology degree, with all pre-med prerequisites fulfilled. Does this mean I won't have to retake any pre-req courses at any point in the future? Does undegrad coursework ever "expire?"

3. I expect to have a cum GPA of 3.25, BCPM GPA of 3.15. If my grad GPA, work experience, and MCAT are all good in the future, do I have a shot at medical school?

4. What others challenges should I expect? What should I be planning for?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

I actually would respectfully disagree with some of what is written above. First, your LORs need to be current, and dated. I would lay the groundwork for getting one down the road, but don't actually collect it yet. Second, while undergrad coursework might not per se "expire", a lot of places like to see them done within the last 5 or so years. At a minimum, schools are going to want to see recent success in the sciences, and public health won't count for this because most places consider this composed of "soft" rather than "hard" sciences. Third, your grad GPA will not help your undergrad GPA, which is too low for MD schools (I defer to the osteopaths as to whether this is competitive for DO). Grad degrees and GPA's tend to be regarded as the equivalent of nice ECs. You would want to either do something to increase your undergrad GPA (more undergrad level courses), or do a one year SMP, which won't help the GPA, but will give med schools reassurance that you can handle med school caliber courses. Finally, don't ignore the necessary ECs. You are going to need to volunteer/shadow to get a decent amount of clinical exposure. Folks who change careers are expected to be better thought out and have done their homework.

 

[Ariadne]

I actually would respectfully disagree with some of what is written above. First, your LORs need to be current, and dated. I would lay the groundwork for getting one down the road, but don't actually collect it yet. Second, while undergrad coursework might not per se "expire", a lot of places like to see them done within the last 5 or so years. At a minimum, schools are going to want to see recent success in the sciences, and public health won't count for this because most places consider this composed of "soft" rather than "hard" sciences. Third, your grad GPA will not help your undergrad GPA, which is too low for MD schools (I defer to the osteopaths as to whether this is competitive for DO). Grad degrees and GPA's tend to be regarded as the equivalent of nice ECs. You would want to either do something to increase your undergrad GPA (more undergrad level courses), or do a one year SMP, which won't help the GPA, but will give med schools reassurance that you can handle med school caliber courses. Finally, don't ignore the necessary ECs. You are going to need to volunteer/shadow to get a decent amount of clinical exposure. Folks who change careers are expected to be better thought out and have done their homework.

How "current" is current? I graduate this coming May, but plan to take a year off for various reasons and apply for entrance in 2011. I have several professors I would like to ask for a letter of recommendation from during the spring semester (so letters would be dated ~05/09). If I start the application process in summer 2010, the letters will be a year out of date already. However, since I won't be in school during the next academic year it doesn't seem to make sense to wait...

 

[Law2Doc]

How "current" is current? I graduate this coming May, but plan to take a year off for various reasons and apply for entrance in 2011. I have several professors I would like to ask for a letter of recommendation from during the spring semester (so letters would be dated ~05/09). If I start the application process in summer 2010, the letters will be a year out of date already. However, since I won't be in school during the next academic year it doesn't seem to make sense to wait...

A one year off is fine. 5 years+ like the OP is describing is too remote, IMHO. A good rule of thumb is that if an adcom chooses to call the LOR writer, s/he has to still remember who you are.

 

[DrMidlife]

On the ancient LOR issue, I had an instance of terrific luck with a professor I had in 1999, who remembered me well, and wrote me a killer letter in 2007. We met for coffee, we caught up, she interviewed me, and later she let me review what she wrote (shh don't tell). So that's an option too: keep in touch with professors who've seen you shine.

 

[chopper]

How "current" is current? I graduate this coming May, but plan to take a year off for various reasons and apply for entrance in 2011. I have several professors I would like to ask for a letter of recommendation from during the spring semester (so letters would be dated ~05/09). If I start the application process in summer 2010, the letters will be a year out of date already. However, since I won't be in school during the next academic year it doesn't seem to make sense to wait...

Another option here is to ask for the letter now, with them either writing it now and holding onto it or just having your info which they can remember you by when they do. Let them know it is for next year, and the reason why. Then when you are ready, they can dust it off (or write it quickly), with updates for recent events, date and sign. Best of both worlds.

 

[Law2Doc]

So that's an option too: keep in touch with professors who've seen you shine.

Yeah, that was what I was trying to suggest when I said you should "lay the groundwork" for getting one later.

 

[unsung]

I have a lot of reservations about medical school at the moment, and my primary interest is health policy. It's an attitude that's a bit backward compared to those on these forums, but I see a future MD as a way of gaining more traction in public health, not the other way around.

Was it difficult to get back to studying undergrad hard science material after working for a while?

No, if anything it was easier. I just thought about how boring working the 9 to 5 was and it gave me plenty of motivation to focus in class.

If you are really into public health, that's awesome. Then by all means go for the degree and don't worry about a post-bacc. One thing I just thought of that you CAN do to significantly improve your chances for med school down the line... move to a good state and establish residency there. I kind of bemoan my home state because standards are moderately high there so I really don't have any kind of advantage. If I could do some things over, it would totally be worth it to move & work in a state more conducive to medical school. If you plan to get out in the work world any way, might as well establish residency in a "friendly" state.

 

[unsung]

Another option here is to ask for the letter now, with them either writing it now and holding onto it or just having your info which they can remember you by when they do. Let them know it is for next year, and the reason why. Then when you are ready, they can dust it off (or write it quickly), with updates for recent events, date and sign. Best of both worlds.

That's a good plan, although I wonder how many LOR writers would actually *write* the thing, with pretty much no deadline given to them. It was hard enough getting my LOR writers to turn theirs in even when I gave them a deadline way in advance.

One thing to note is Interfolio allows electronic uploads of LORs, so your prof could write & upload the letter. Then come time to apply, say a year down the line, just have them upload the same letter with the current date. It's much easier for them, since they've already written the letter and only need to change the date. This is assuming they bother to figure out how to upload the letter in the first place, which not all profs bother to do. Anyway, I find it a secure feeling to know I have a LOR stored on there... so there's less of a risk that some years down the line, the prof would get too lazy to write one.

 

[Goh]

I actually would respectfully disagree with some of what is written above. First, your LORs need to be current, and dated. I would lay the groundwork for getting one down the road, but don't actually collect it yet. Second, while undergrad coursework might not per se "expire", a lot of places like to see them done within the last 5 or so years. At a minimum, schools are going to want to see recent success in the sciences, and public health won't count for this because most places consider this composed of "soft" rather than "hard" sciences. Third, your grad GPA will not help your undergrad GPA, which is too low for MD schools (I defer to the osteopaths as to whether this is competitive for DO). Grad degrees and GPA's tend to be regarded as the equivalent of nice ECs. You would want to either do something to increase your undergrad GPA (more undergrad level courses), or do a one year SMP, which won't help the GPA, but will give med schools reassurance that you can handle med school caliber courses. Finally, don't ignore the necessary ECs. You are going to need to volunteer/shadow to get a decent amount of clinical exposure. Folks who change careers are expected to be better thought out and have done their homework.

Hmmm...it looks like an SMP would be the most compact (also the most do-or-die) academic option for me if I want to apply to med school in the future. As for the MCAT, I actually studied for it over the summer and took it last week, but had to void the test due to sickness during the test and a diffident attitude. Perhaps I can keep refreshing the material over time so I wouldn't have too much catch-up to do before I decide to take it again? This may or may not be feasible when I'm in grad school and working. Volunteering/shadowing will be kept in mind also.

The advice on letters of rec was very enlightening. I'll probably get my profs to draft one, store it in Interfolio, then keep them updated over time. Thanks everyone.