Pleading my case with post bacc. program

[Smb8041]

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I have a meeting over the phone with the Director of a Post Bacc. program that I am very interested in. I have a 3.1 undergrad GPA (BSN in Nursing) and the minimum requirement for acceptance into the program is a 3.2 I wanted to call and speak with the director to try to improve my chances of getting in to the program. I will be talking with her at 9am tomorrow morning. What should I say when trying to state my case of why I would make a good candidate even though my GPA is less than stellar? Any suggestions???? Thanks!!!

 

[apumic]

You haven't given us anything to work with. If you want compelling ideas, you've got to convince us you are first. Right now, what you've told us is you're a mediocre student (3.1 GPA) w/ a BSN in a vocational major (nursing). That's two pretty big strikes against you. Have you worked as a nurse or are you going straight from the BSN to the PB? If the latter, you might want to slow down a bit, as med schools generally dislike taking newly-trained nurses. It doesn't bode well for their PR....
If the former, however, nursing experience could be useful in getting your foot in the door. It really depends on what you've got to offer and you haven't really given us anything to work with.

 

[Smb8041]

I have 1 year of experience as an ICU nurse. And you're right, I don't have a lot to work with. That's why I'm trying to find ways to increase my chances of getting in to the program. It's a post bacc program so they are looking more at what I have to offer academically, rather than what clinical experience I have. The purpose of writing this post was to see if anyone had any suggestions about what I could say to her tomorrow when I speak with her to convince her that I deserve to be in the program

 

[apumic]

Well, your 1 year of ICU nursing is a plus, as long as it has given you compelling reasons to go into medicine. You need to play to those when you talk w the director. Usually, PBs are most concerned w/ your chances of getting into a med school at the end of your training w/ them as they want to maintain their high (read: INFLATED) success rate. If you don't get in, just do an informal PB -- you'd probably be better off doing an informal one anyway, TBH.

 

[DrSmooth]

I have a meeting over the phone with the Director of a Post Bacc. program that I am very interested in. I have a 3.1 undergrad GPA (BSN in Nursing) and the minimum requirement for acceptance into the program is a 3.2 I wanted to call and speak with the director to try to improve my chances of getting in to the program. I will be talking with her at 9am tomorrow morning. What should I say when trying to state my case of why I would make a good candidate even though my GPA is less than stellar? Any suggestions???? Thanks!!!

Your main strength is your clinical experience and critical thinking/perform well under pressure-ness that comes with being an ICU nurse for a year. You have about 100 times (at least) the clinical experience compared to the average postbacc applicant. Emphasize that.

Your main drawback is your GPA. But it's only .1 shy of their minimum. Do you have an upward trend in your GPA? Emphasize that. Do you have a higher science GPA than cumulative GPA? Emphasize that, which indicates your future success in PB courses.

I completely disagree with apumic about the attractiveness of your BSN degree and the assertion that "you'd probably be better off doing an informal posbacc". A BSN (In what sense is this a vocational degree? BSNs can go on to get their CRNA, NP, or PhD. I think you are confused with an LVN) gives you tons of clinical experience (not even counting your yr of ICU experience) and a diverse perspective on medicine. How in the world could that count as a strike against you. And on what basis do you think medical schools don't want newly trained nurses because of PR??? Who would know if a med school has accepted a nurse anyway? And even if they did, you think accepting a nurse is going to somehow look worse than accepting a former teacher or accountant?

A formal postbacc has many advantages, so not sure why an informal program would be better for you, other than cost. The (true) 100% statistic for the cadillac postbaccs is reason enough to consider them. But other postbaccs at well known universities give you name recognition, priority registration, academic support, a committee or program LOR, and a great community of fellow postbaccs, all of which increase your chances at getting into a great med school. Well worth the investment TBH.

 

[apumic]

Your main strength is your clinical experience and critical thinking/perform well under pressure-ness that comes with being an ICU nurse for a year. You have about 100 times (at least) the clinical experience compared to the average postbacc applicant. Emphasize that.

I wasn't going to respond, but I suppose I should.
First, the typical PB student does have a good year of solid full-time clinical experience. I don't know what the average is, but I know it's not uncommon.

Your main drawback is your GPA. But it's only .1 shy of their minimum. Do you have an upward trend in your GPA? Emphasize that. Do you have a higher science GPA than cumulative GPA? Emphasize that, which indicates your future success in PB courses.

I completely disagree with apumic about the attractiveness of your BSN degree and the assertion that "you'd probably be better off doing an informal posbacc". A BSN (In what sense is this a vocational degree? BSNs can go on to get their CRNA, NP, or PhD. I think you are confused with an LVN) gives you tons of clinical experience (not even counting your yr of ICU experience) and a diverse perspective on medicine. How in the world could that count as a strike against you. And on what basis do you think medical schools don't want newly trained nurses because of PR??? Who would know if a med school has accepted a nurse anyway? And even if they did, you think accepting a nurse is going to somehow look worse than accepting a former teacher or accountant?

Informal post-baccs generally have just as high a chance of success as do formal ones (controlling for the fact that the formal PBs screen people). In other words, if you would have gotten into the formal PB, your chances of getting into med school are just as good from an informal PB as from the formal PB. Therefore, since the formal PBs are generally thousands of dollars more than an informal one, it is often a better choice to go w/ the inexpensive (informal) option.

As for the vocational issue, I generally know my medical fields pretty well but thank you for the correction. The BSN (4-year nursing education-->NCLEX-->RN) is a great option. BSN programs are generally quite competitive and train nurses very well. They are, however, considered non-academic degrees. If you doubt this, well, all I can say is look at the data. BSN and other applied health majors have the poorest rate of acceptance of any major group (~28%, compared with ~45% for bio majors or ~50% for humanities and bx sciences). BSNs, in particular, are on the lower end of this at 26% only doing better than straight out medical technology major programs. These are all 4-year programs, btw, as you cannot apply to medical school directly from a 2-year program (you need a min of 90 units for any school and most want a BA/BS anymore). You can "strongly disagree" with me all you want. It doesn't change the fact that I am looking at the data and am quite familiar with this topic.

As for why [newly-minted] BSNs are not generally desirable.... This has been debated many times on SDN, CC, and elsewhere and some adcoms have shared their viewpoints. Here are what some attendings, medical students, residents, and adcom members have stated: 1) BSN coursework, while difficult, is seen as less rigorous (at some programs) than what is required of those in academic science majors; 2) The BSN is primarily vocational in its focus (i.e., focused on getting a job -- vocational programs are not necessarily CC-based 2-yr programs); 3) Medical schools prefer breadth of training and want academically-trained applicants, which areas of study such as Nursing and other allied-health majors (e.g., AT), simply do not provide; 4) The "PR issue" -- we have a nursing shortage and accepting a newly-minted nurse to med school removes a nurse from duty, wasting a precious nursing school seat.

A formal postbacc has many advantages, so not sure why an informal program would be better for you, other than cost. The (true) 100% statistic for the cadillac postbaccs is reason enough to consider them. But other postbaccs at well known universities give you name recognition, priority registration, academic support, a committee or program LOR, and a great community of fellow postbaccs, all of which increase your chances at getting into a great med school. Well worth the investment TBH.

All of the things you listed as advantages to a formal PB that are not the result of careful screening (resulting in major acceptance rate inflation) can easily be gotten with a little ambition at any state university. Sure, if the OP has a bunch of money lying around, burning a hole in his/her pocket, then by all means, why the heck not? But if not, then it isn't really worth going into more debt just to go to some formal PB that will have a negligible impact on your app anyway. (But will have a not-so-negligible impact on your bank account!)



All of this having been said.... OP, formal or informal PB, do whichever is cheaper and/or more convenient for you. If you prefer the support of a formal PB and don't mind the expense, then, by all means, go for it. If you simply were planning to do a formal PB b/c you thought it'd "guarantee" your entrance to med school or didn't think informal was practical, then consider the informal option (as the formal guarantees nothing -- as much as they'd like you to believe than could -- and they're generally far more expensive, less flexible, and offer little you couldn't get for virtually nothing elsewhere). As for the BSN desirability question... well, if you read the possible reasons BSNs are not generally thought of as particularly desirable by med students, then you know what you need to overcome. You could do this with your PS (e.g., be very clear -- but also positive about -- why you're leaving nursing and how that experience will make you a better physician) as well as the add'l courses you take as a PB.

 

[DrSmooth]

I wasn't going to respond, but I suppose I should.
First, the typical PB student does have a good year of solid full-time clinical experience. I don't know what the average is, but I know it's not uncommon.

Informal post-baccs generally have just as high a chance of success as do formal ones (controlling for the fact that the formal PBs screen people). In other words, if you would have gotten into the formal PB, your chances of getting into med school are just as good from an informal PB as from the formal PB. Therefore, since the formal PBs are generally thousands of dollars more than an informal one, it is often a better choice to go w/ the inexpensive (informal) option.

As for the vocational issue, I generally know my medical fields pretty well but thank you for the correction. The BSN (4-year nursing education-->NCLEX-->RN) is a great option. BSN programs are generally quite competitive and train nurses very well. They are, however, considered non-academic degrees. If you doubt this, well, all I can say is look at the data. BSN and other applied health majors have the poorest rate of acceptance of any major group (~28%, compared with ~45% for bio majors or ~50% for humanities and bx sciences). BSNs, in particular, are on the lower end of this at 26% only doing better than straight out medical technology major programs. These are all 4-year programs, btw, as you cannot apply to medical school directly from a 2-year program (you need a min of 90 units for any school and most want a BA/BS anymore). You can "strongly disagree" with me all you want. It doesn't change the fact that I am looking at the data and am quite familiar with this topic.

As for why [newly-minted] BSNs are not generally desirable.... This has been debated many times on SDN, CC, and elsewhere and some adcoms have shared their viewpoints. Here are what some attendings, medical students, residents, and adcom members have stated: 1) BSN coursework, while difficult, is seen as less rigorous (at some programs) than what is required of those in academic science majors; 2) The BSN is primarily vocational in its focus (i.e., focused on getting a job -- vocational programs are not necessarily CC-based 2-yr programs); 3) Medical schools prefer breadth of training and want academically-trained applicants, which areas of study such as Nursing and other allied-health majors (e.g., AT), simply do not provide; 4) The "PR issue" -- we have a nursing shortage and accepting a newly-minted nurse to med school removes a nurse from duty, wasting a precious nursing school seat.

All of the things you listed as advantages to a formal PB that are not the result of careful screening (resulting in major acceptance rate inflation) can easily be gotten with a little ambition at any state university. Sure, if the OP has a bunch of money lying around, burning a hole in his/her pocket, then by all means, why the heck not? But if not, then it isn't really worth going into more debt just to go to some formal PB that will have a negligible impact on your app anyway. (But will have a not-so-negligible impact on your bank account!)



All of this having been said.... OP, formal or informal PB, do whichever is cheaper and/or more convenient for you. If you prefer the support of a formal PB and don't mind the expense, then, by all means, go for it. If you simply were planning to do a formal PB b/c you thought it'd "guarantee" your entrance to med school or didn't think informal was practical, then consider the informal option (as the formal guarantees nothing -- as much as they'd like you to believe than could -- and they're generally far more expensive, less flexible, and offer little you couldn't get for virtually nothing elsewhere). As for the BSN desirability question... well, if you read the possible reasons BSNs are not generally thought of as particularly desirable by med students, then you know what you need to overcome. You could do this with your PS (e.g., be very clear -- but also positive about -- why you're leaving nursing and how that experience will make you a better physician) as well as the add'l courses you take as a PB.

I apologise in advance, this response is WAY too long, and I don't know how to break up the quotes. So I will just break my response into paragraphs.

I also don't have non-trad statistics, I wish there were more out there. But in my postbacc class of 100 students, typical clinical experience was 4-8 hours per week for one year. That's roughly 300 hrs. A full-time nurse puts in that much time in 9 wks, and that's without overtime and not counting clinical rotation hours. So it's safe to say a BSN with a year of critical care experience has TONS more clinical exposure and with a dramatically greater scope of practice and level of responsibility than the average PB.

As for "vocational degree", agreed. A BSN (not part of allied health BTW) is "vocational" in the broadest sense of the word, in that it is training you for a specific career. But it's not like she was a welder or blacksmith. BSN programs are not simply "focused on getting a job" as you said. They are focused on patient care, nursing diagnosis, case management, critical thinking, leadership/management, among other things. All PBs are coming out of some other career, and many if not most have "vocational" degrees such as education, accounting, business, etc. This is not a negative when it comes to med school admissions. It is part of what makes non-trads attractive applicants. You obviously know the AAMC statistics better than I do, can you tell me if those undergraduate major acceptance statistics are specifically for non-trads or do they include traditional applicants applying straight out of college? If so it would be difficult to know how they apply to the OPs case. We might be missing each other here because I am comparing her to other non-trads, while you seem to comparing her to traditional applicants.

In terms of adcoms not wanting to contribute to the nursing shortage, I can take LizzyM (or whoever else) at their word. But I think a lot of adcoms would also take the physician shortage into account, recognizing that training a nurse takes from 18 months-4 years (also nursing schools are expanding at a much fast rate than medical schools, and the global nursing pool is much greater) while training a doctor takes 11 years including UG. Hence, trading 1 nurse for 1 doctor is a pretty sweet deal.

Either way, I am a bit confused by your advice. On the one hand you are saying she has some strikes against her in that she is a "mediocre" student coming out of a "vocational" field. But on the other you are discouraging her from attending a formal postbacc, which would give her basically a 100% chance of overcoming those strikes and getting accepted to med school.

I'm also confused by your rationale for favoring an "informal postbacc". How can "a little ambition" at a state school give you any of the advantages I cited for formal postbaccs such as name recognition, priority registration, academic support, a committee or program LOR, and a great community of fellow postbaccs? It is a fact that science courses at most state schools are impacted, sections (even entire summer programs) are being canceled due to budget shortfalls, state schools do not have the name recognition of say a Columbia, special status students register last & receive minimal academic support and no program LORs, and postbacc community is hard to come by. Sure, being ambitious can help you overcome those obastacles, as many DIY postbacc students have done, but it doesn't mean they aren't there. The $$$ you gain now with a DIY postbacc can easily be lost in future income if you get delayed even a semester. Those of us who chose to do formal postbaccs aren't just rich and stupid. We recognized that the investment we make now will pay off in the near future. I would encourage any nontrad to strongly consider one of the Cadillac posbaccs (Scripps/BM/Goucher) if they can get in, then look to the formal postbaccs like Columbia, USC, etc, and then look to a DIY postbacc if location and finances require. But hey, different strokes, right?

Okay, sorry for the novel. And apumic, sorry for my hard-edged response to your initial posts. I was honestly responding to what sounded to me like a lack of due respect for the nursing profession, and just that negative vibe that seems to be part of the SDN subculture. I remember all the negativity I got when I first came on SDN for advice before starting my postbacc and I was trying to give Smb a little encouragement regarding what all she has to offer and how to set herself up for success. All right, good night, and how did the PB interview go BTW?

 

[jl lin]

Your main strength is your clinical experience and critical thinking/perform well under pressure-ness that comes with being an ICU nurse for a year. You have about 100 times (at least) the clinical experience compared to the average postbacc applicant. Emphasize that.

Your main drawback is your GPA. But it's only .1 shy of their minimum. Do you have an upward trend in your GPA? Emphasize that. Do you have a higher science GPA than cumulative GPA? Emphasize that, which indicates your future success in PB courses.

I completely disagree with apumic about the attractiveness of your BSN degree and the assertion that "you'd probably be better off doing an informal posbacc". A BSN (In what sense is this a vocational degree? BSNs can go on to get their CRNA, NP, or PhD. I think you are confused with an LVN) gives you tons of clinical experience (not even counting your yr of ICU experience) and a diverse perspective on medicine. How in the world could that count as a strike against you. And on what basis do you think medical schools don't want newly trained nurses because of PR??? Who would know if a med school has accepted a nurse anyway? And even if they did, you think accepting a nurse is going to somehow look worse than accepting a former teacher or accountant?

A formal postbacc has many advantages, so not sure why an informal program would be better for you, other than cost. The (true) 100% statistic for the cadillac postbaccs is reason enough to consider them. But other postbaccs at well known universities give you name recognition, priority registration, academic support, a committee or program LOR, and a great community of fellow postbaccs, all of which increase your chances at getting into a great med school. Well worth the investment TBH.

One year ICU experience as a RN may not be deemed as that strong, though it may be stronger than other pre-meds' clinical exposures--but they may have say better SAT or GRE scores or MCAT scores. Do any of these kinds of tests look good for you?

And the ICU experience may not be that strong depending on the unit--small community hospital versus a university center that specializes in various things--is insanely busy, and say is licensed for high-level surgeries and other interventional treatments.

Look I hope in your conversation, you gave it your best shot. If things don't pan out, take courses to get your GPA up and see if you can do well on the GRE for example. Also, if you are in a smaller community hospital, try to get into a university, high level center that does a lot of top surgeries and recoveries and other treatments--or try to move into a busy ED. Clinically speaking, I think this will give you an edge, though more years as a RN in critical care would be better.

Gook luck to you.

 

[jl lin]

I also don't have non-trad statistics, I wish there were more out there. But in my postbacc class of 100 students, typical clinical experience was 4-8 hours per week for one year. That's roughly 300 hrs. A full-time nurse puts in that much time in 9 wks, and that's without overtime and not counting clinical rotation hours. So it's safe to say a BSN with a year of critical care experience has TONS more clinical exposure and with a dramatically greater scope of practice and level of responsibility than the average PB.

As for "vocational degree", agreed. A BSN (not part of allied health BTW) is "vocational" in the broadest sense of the word, in that it is training you for a specific career.

First, it is not necessarily so--it depends on the overall clinical experiences you've had opportunity to gain. A sleepy community hospital ICU may not come out to make the competitive difference, and that's really what we are talking about--having the competitive edge and compensating for the lower GPA.


Secondly, um really a degree in professional nursing is not a vocational degree--but I guess some folks would care to debate that. Is a teaching degree considered a "vocational" degree? See my point? I think a program that requires no less than following basic general education LA requirements for writing, Statistics, Econ, Ethics, General Bio I and II, Anatomy and Phys I & II, Microbiology, at least General Chem--all with labs, plus pharmacology, pathophysiology, and other too numerous and even writing intensive to mention, surpass what would be considered as say "vocational." I mean is the seminary vocational? You could say so; but what is required in terms of education will make a difference in terms of the degree that is granted.

Most degree programs give education related to a specific career, except for say certain liberal arts degrees for crying out loud. And even in those, one doesn't really get a good sense of what one is doing in the particular field until he or she actually begins to work in it, period. This doesn't really change in reality. Education and training will only get you so far--and much of that is cursory in nature compared to getting to where the rubber meets the road.


Again, a critical care or intensive care nurse in setting A is not exposed and experienced as one in setting B. Same thing when comparing certain community EDs. You will not get nearly the same clinical exposure. Don't get me wrong. I've learned some good things in community hospital settings; but not like what I've learned, overall, in specialized hospital settings or university medical centers. Sure, there is always the opportunity to learn something somewhere, but I'm just saying, overall, the places the were busy as hell and kicked my butt, they are the ones where I usually learned to most. Scheduling and rotations and parking etc sucks comparatively, but I'm glad for those experiences over time.


I think the OP should try to up his/her GPA, score well on say the GRE, get into a busy university hospital setting or a busy specialized setting or a busy ED, and then I think his or her chances will increased substantially.

 

[drizzt3117]

I wasn't going to respond, but I suppose I should.
First, the typical PB student does have a good year of solid full-time clinical experience. I don't know what the average is, but I know it's not uncommon.

That's certainly not my experience. There was one nurse in my program but most people had nowhere near one year of clinical experience. In fact, my program had internships simply for the purpose of people getting clinical experience.

Informal post-baccs generally have just as high a chance of success as do formal ones (controlling for the fact that the formal PBs screen people). In other words, if you would have gotten into the formal PB, your chances of getting into med school are just as good from an informal PB as from the formal PB. Therefore, since the formal PBs are generally thousands of dollars more than an informal one, it is often a better choice to go w/ the inexpensive (informal) option.

I highly doubt this statement is true and I'm not sure how you would prove it was. The top programs have 100% acceptance rates. Would 100% of the people who did the programs get in if they did informal postbacs? I'd definitely disagree with anyone who claimed that was the case. Most of those programs are filled with career changers who do need the advising you get from a formal program.

All of the things you listed as advantages to a formal PB that are not the result of careful screening (resulting in major acceptance rate inflation) can easily be gotten with a little ambition at any state university. Sure, if the OP has a bunch of money lying around, burning a hole in his/her pocket, then by all means, why the heck not? But if not, then it isn't really worth going into more debt just to go to some formal PB that will have a negligible impact on your app anyway. (But will have a not-so-negligible impact on your bank account!)

All of this having been said.... OP, formal or informal PB, do whichever is cheaper and/or more convenient for you. If you prefer the support of a formal PB and don't mind the expense, then, by all means, go for it. If you simply were planning to do a formal PB b/c you thought it'd "guarantee" your entrance to med school or didn't think informal was practical, then consider the informal option (as the formal guarantees nothing -- as much as they'd like you to believe than could -- and they're generally far more expensive, less flexible, and offer little you couldn't get for virtually nothing elsewhere). As for the BSN desirability question... well, if you read the possible reasons BSNs are not generally thought of as particularly desirable by med students, then you know what you need to overcome. You could do this with your PS (e.g., be very clear -- but also positive about -- why you're leaving nursing and how that experience will make you a better physician) as well as the add'l courses you take as a PB.

There are no guarantees in life, but the top formal programs have 8-10 year histories of 100% acceptance rates. Clearly they're screening candidates by GPAs and test scores, but the other thing they're doing is screening out people who in their experience aren't likely to succeed for non-academic reasons. What you pay for with a top formal program is not only advising, MCAT preparation, etc, but also sponsorship from programs that have a lot of history with top programs (not even counting linkage).

For the record, separating the "top" formal programs that offer strong support for their students (I.e. Scripps, Goucher, BM) from those who are using postbac education as a method of revenue generation and banking on the reputation of their undergrad institution (coughColumbiacough) requires a little bit of research. Undergrad reputation /= postbac reputation. A lot of top undergrads have postbac programs that aren't particularly well-regarded (Wash U, Northwestern, Cornell, etc) and in that case, you probably are better off with just an informal postbac.

 

[Morsetlis]

Don't forget new professor LORs, dean LORs, guaranteed interviews, etc.

 

[drizzt3117]

Don't forget new professor LORs, dean LORs, guaranteed interviews, etc.

Yeah the first two was what I meant by sponsorship, some postbacs do offer guaranteed interviews too but I think many of those are SMPs, although I think Tufts' PBPM program does offer a guaranteed interview, I am not entirely sure if USCs does or not.

 

[jl lin]

More good to know info. drizzt.

My perspective though is that many PB programs are getting more and more competitive. As this becomes more of the reality, people seeking entrance must plan accordingly.

Thus, if your GPA is under par, and you want to push your clinical experience and a competitive plus, make sure it's really tight--like from a busy, more cutting edge medical center if possible--especially as a RN. On top of that up your GPA and up your standardized test scores.

I keep reading how these PB programs are getting more and more competitive and there are only so many seats.

 

[drizzt3117]

More good to know info. drizzt.

My perspective though is that many PB programs are getting more and more competitive. As this becomes more of the reality, people seeking entrance must plan accordingly.

Thus, if your GPA is under par, and you want to push your clinical experience and a competitive plus, make sure it's really tight--like from a busy, more cutting edge medical center if possible--especially as a RN. On top of that up your GPA and up your standardized test scores.

I keep reading how these PB programs are getting more and more competitive and there are only so many seats.

I think the average GPA for the last few years for the postbac program I attended (Scripps) were in the 3.6-3.7 range, with correspondingly high standardized test scores. It's definitely getting more competitive just as getting into med school is getting more competitive.

 

[jl lin]

I think the average GPA for the last few years for the postbac program I attended (Scripps) were in the 3.6-3.7 range, with correspondingly high standardized test scores. It's definitely getting more competitive just as getting into med school is getting more competitive.

That is totally what I've heard.