Please Advice - rather low GPA yet weighing my options

[Idia]

Hello,

Been scouring the internet for solutions to my gpa situation. SDN has provided a lot of insight on this issue and I am sorry to flog a dead horse, but each situation is somewhat unique. Been outta school for about 2 yrs now.
GPA
cUGPA - 2.9ish

BCPM uGPA - 3.05

Used the AMCAS GPA calculator to get the above numbers, I think my uGPA might be a bit higher (3.1ish) . Reason being, enrolled in college Spring '03 and graduated Summer '08. Spent 11 semesters in undergrad (I transferred to a highly ranked sch). My fr,sph,jnr and snr years are not clearly defined and I'm adding two classes in a few weeks.
.
My GPA is low primarily because I struggled to find an effective study method when I transferred into the second school. Going into that school I had a 3.5 (but from a considerably easier school), but graduated with a 3.01.

I worked part-time to make ends meet, struggled with some chronic health issues, but still could have done much better in hindsight.

Anyway, a few things that went well.

ECs

• Did 1yr of UG research with a really great postdoc and PI in biochemistry of HCV, good recommendations, but no publications
• Worked with an international biotech company at a job I loved for about a year
• Doing infectious diseases (ID) research on HIV and Hepatitis (also no publications) but gained tons of experience in sequencing, some in DNA and RNA cloning and attended a ton of Onco and ID seminars.I've been job hunting for a while since that position ended (temp) but in the interim did a few things too.
• Have a first responders certification, I am not too keen on it but would pursuing an EMT be an added benefit?
• Currently tutoring/mentoring kids in elementary school - teaching math and providing homework help. I just did this to stay connected to my community which is very low income, but I may be able to include it in my applications

SHADOWING
Spent some months abroad shadowing physicians at hospital in Africa in particular their Pediatrics dept. - sickle cell and HIV clinics - got ~100hrs

• Taking some notes
• helping direct patients to clinics, checking patients weights and medications
• picking up lab results for doctors
• getting better acquainted with a hospital setting

PUBLIC HEALTH
I am truly passionate about health care and I've been involved with a few efforts i.e community based public health, HIV prevention in minority and disadvantaged populations

• worked as an intern at an HIV health center for a semester

I am very keen on public health especially infectious diseases in the developing world and the role medicine plays in that.A couple public health courses which I enjoyed and did well at. Passes, A and A-

MCATs
I know I need to take the MCAT and score really high.
Studied hard and prepared this summer but it became apparent that the highest I could potentially score once my practice tests picked up was a 30. Since I was became increasingly nervous, I took it then voided, because I knew that would not do for a GPA as low as mine.

Plan to retake MCATs in a few months - March or May 2011

Considering a few post baccs.

• GEMS
• UC Consortium - a friend is having some success with this
• Currently researching linkage programs

If I can score above a 30 which I am working really hard to achieve, I may take an informal route to the post bacc and save some money with that approach.

Please what would you advice as far as succesful post bacc approach is concerned? Take MCAT's see how I perform then plan accordingly? Or apply to post baccs now and take MCAT's later?

I would also love to pursue an MPH, should I do this before or after med school? Before it's a 2yr degree, but after it's 1 yr at my preferred school which has strong a infectious disease and international health program.

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[Catalystik]

Hi Idia,

An MPH will not help compensate for a low undergrad GPA. Do it for it's own sake, but not to help you get into med school.

I think that getting an MCAT score will help determine the most efficient route to becoming a physician, whether it be a DO pathway, unofficial postbac, formal postbac with linkage, or an SMP. There are some MD schools that will regard the BCPM of a science-heavy traditional masters; you might call your preferred school and ask how they factor that into their decision-making process. Your likelihood of being accepted into any formal program/MD- or DO-related, may well depend on your most recent performance in some upper-level Bio classes. Since such classes could also better prepare you to do well on the MCAT, there would be a good argument for taking some classes for 1-2 semesters before attempting the test again. This effort might include retaking any prequisites you did poorly in or for which you had an incomplete understanding of the material. Retakes would have the advantage of invoking the DO grade forgiveness policy if you decide to take that path.

EC-wise, if I were you, I'd recategorize some of what you call "shadowing" as clinical experience, since you were actively interacting with patients when taking vital signs/weights. You will be obliged to shadow some US docs and to get additional clinical experience in a US medical facility of some kind. About 1.5 years of this is the average that applicants list. The HIV Center internship might count toward this expectation, too, if you interacted with patients (was it US based?).

A first responder's certificate is useless if you don't use it in a volunteer or work situation. This would be a good source of clinical patient experience.

Your research and nonmedical community service look good.

 

[Catalystik]

You might like to look through this Nontraditional/low GPA/ success thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=675835

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

I think you need to take the MCAT to see where you stand. You might be able to get into a DO school with an impressive MCAT to compensate for the low GPAs. SMP/DO is your best chance to recover from the GPAs.

 

[Idia]

Thank you for your response, sorry it was a lengthy post.

Yep, the HIV health center is in CA, but only for a semester. My interactions were mostly along the lines of social welfare though (food & transportation vouchers, appt. with case workers, developing outreach questionnaires).

I am definitely short of clinical experience ,but I'm still searching for something relevant.I would like to train to be an HIV testing counselor - mostly for my sake but when I'm certified perhaps this could count as clinical experience?

I am sorry I was a bit ambivalent abt my background. I actually do have a strong science bkgrnd. My major was Chemistry and I specifically chose a ton of electives in Biology since I was still undecided between medicine and research.

I am completely open to either MD or DO, but I don't know too much about the latter except that its the same education but with an emphasis on a more holistic approach.

MCAT's, my scores started to pick up 2-3 days before the test, but I never got a 30+, so I chose not to score it. I think I could do well again w/o repeating prereq classes but instead repeating my prep course. I just got really flustered bcos my grades were not sufficient and I did not want a sub score 30, since this would mean another hurdle.

My GPA is pretty abysmal, but I imagine I have an upward trend. Maybe I will share the graph someday, I'm still not sure how much info is necessary and how much is over sharing.

The issue was my jnr yr, I was sick a lot and missed a ton of school. I ended up getting all C's, which brought my GPA at the new school to a 2.0 (18 units!!!), I spent the next 6 semesters slowly clawing my way back to a 3.01 (got one C- (4units), a ton of B's, a few A's, B-'s & B+'s, and one A+)

 

[TriagePreMed]

I have to somewhat disagree with the rest of the crew. I think that even with a high mcat you hold very little chance to get in anywhere other than the caribbean. You will have to do at least 1 year of post-bacc (preferably 2) or an SMP to make up for your GPA.

 

[Idia]

Hi Catalysik,

If you could please let me know, how do adcoms view a post bacc where only 3-6 units are taken every semester?

I have now started working full time again (I have to), but looking into some of the local CSU's for additional courses and putting an application in to the UC consortium. It seems a bit far fetched with my stats, but I am very keen to attend a CA school, the UC consortium has a great reputation for helping get your foot in the door. If I am accepted, then I may have to leave my current position. If not, I will be attending the local CSU as a part time student with 1-2 classes a quarter as I continue to work. Is that frowned upon?

 

[Pons Asinorum]

...but I am very keen to attend a CA school,

If by that you mean one of the UC's/Keck/Stanford, you need to disabuse yourself of that notion. You will not be competitive at any of those schools, regardless of your MCAT score. You could possibly stay in CA if you include DO programs.

As to your question, no, it is not frowned upon. You are doing what you need to do. As long as you are demonstrating you have the motivation and aptitude to succeed in medical school through your coursework and volunteering, you will not be held back by working full-time and taking part-time coursework. Just make sure you are making straight A's.

 

[aSagacious]

It would not be unreasonable to sneak into a post-bac program. If you choose to go that route, make sure it has GUARANTEED linkage. I do not think any GPA boost in your post-bac program will bring you up enough to become competitive. Therefore if you can find a program that does conditional acceptances straight to their medical school, jump on it. Even amongst post-bac candidates your numbers are still not outstanding, so I'd apply to as many as I could find. (Sorry if this post came off as brunt, subtlety was never one of my strengths).

 

[Idia]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Yes, I will be applying to both MD and DO schools. It is not too blunt, I appreciate the honesty and I can deal.

I spoke to an advisor who recommended that I go to school full time since that shows a complete dedication, however, I do not have the luxury of giving up work. Be that as it may, I will be taking as many units at I can manage at the local State Uni., and I want to do very well, so it will most likely not be more than 2 classes a quarter.

I plan to apply broadly.

 

[TheComebacKid]

I wouldn't lose hope. A strong MCAT score can really boost your application a great deal. And there is absolutely no shame in taking an extra year or two to go to an SMP program (like myself) and then cross your fingers and hope for the best. If you want to do allopathic medicine, I think an SMP/post-bacc is definitely going to be important, but if you want to go to a DO school, you might be able to get in somewhere with your current grades (take what I say with a grain of salt, I don't know much about DO schools except that they aren't as caught up with the numbers like allopathic schools are). And if you still want to be an MD without having to go through the trouble/expense of a post-bacc/SMP then the Caribbean is certainly a reasonable option.

There are a couple of things I feel I should point out to you. First and foremost, your EC's look pretty good to me. While clinical experience would be something that you should seek to add to your resume, by and large, your number one focus should be grades. A lot of my peers who had low GPA's thought that they could make up for it by overloading on EC's to compensate. I assure you that none of them are in medical school today. While EC's are important, I think overloading on EC's to compensate for a low GPA just shows a lack of maturity and it shows the applicant is someone who isn't willing to bite the bullet and hit the books if they have to. So your primary focus from here on out should be that GPA and MCAT.

I am in an SMP right now, so I will give you my advice regarding SMP's and post-baccalaureate programs in general. While everyone is encouraging you to apply to programs that have direct linkages, the truth is that those programs are very limited, extremely competitive, and can be geared towards certain applicants (i.e. those of disadvantaged status). That being said, you should still apply to all of them and try and get in, but just know that all of those programs are VERY far from being a sure shot for anybody.

However, there are loads of other programs out there that do not have direct linkages, but have some worthwhile associations with their medical schools. For instance, students at the top of the Tufts, Georgetown, and University of Cincinnati SMP's commonly get accepted into those respective medical schools. Although there is no strong linkage set in stone, it is clear that going to those programs improves your chances. And also, while there are a few programs that guarantee you an automatic acceptance, there are some, like the SMP I am in that guarantee you an automatic interview provided you get certain grades in SMP classes. An automatic interview is something that can be really beneficial, especially if your grades aren't that great, it gives you the opportunity to get your foot in the door.

Another thing that you should know is that SMP programs are hard. They aren't just difficult, some of them are down right ridiculous enough to make you want to pull your hair out and maybe question if medicine is for you. However, its very important to realize that if you hang in there and keep plugging away, you can succeed and do well. But one of the scary things about SMP's is that doing poorly in them actually hurts your application, because medical schools don't need anymore proof that you can't handle the medical school curriculum. Another thing is that for people who have taken a lot of course work, like me, post-bacc grades don't really improve your GPA all that much. The more A's you get, the less and less each A will impact your GPA (just by the laws of averages). That is a real bummer. But I think the most important thing is to get your numbers over a 3.0 to make it through the initial screening process at most medical schools, and then show a very strong upward trend. Doing well in an SMP program shows adcoms that you can handle medical school coursework. And at my SMP, where we are graded against the medical school class, outperforming the MS1 students suggests that maybe you should be there instead of them.

Regarding California schools, I know you would love to go there, and so would 90% of SDNers including myself. There is no shame in saying that those schools are absolutely ridiculous when it comes to accepting applicants. I would tell those with 4.0 GPA's and 35+ MCAT scores to come to terms with the fact that there is a good chance that no CA schools will accept them. You can still be a great physician if you go to another medical school in a more unfavorable climate (although I know the climate is probably not your main concern).

I really empathize with your situation, as I am in a similar boat. While my sGPA is far from being competitive, I am lucky that it would probably be looked at by a handful of lower tier allopathic schools (3.45) but my cGPA is problematic (3.0) since I was a career changer. But I've researched all the routes available to applicants like you and I, and you should know that there are many of them that are available. Keep that in mind and know that if your primary goal is to become a physician, you can definitely make it happen. Don't let any all the SDNers on here with their inflated egos tell you otherwise. I've also noticed that sometimes they try and cover up their discouraging comments by saying that they are trying to help you out and be "honest". The "honest" to God truth is that a 4.0 GPA doesn't make you a good physician. Someone with a 3.0 GPA who has turned things around, learned to embrace better study habits, and has good experience interacting with people can still be a physician, and even at times a better one than those with those great numbers. That being said, it is still hard to get into medical school with lower grades, but I think medical school will come to those who work hard, stay at it in the face of adversity and discouraging comments, and understanding the broader picture of what medicine entails.

Stay at it my friend, you can most certainly do this! Best of luck to you.

 

[Catalystik]

Hi Catalysik,

If you could please let me know, how do adcoms view a post bacc where only 3-6 units are taken every semester?

Adcomms are going to look at the total load you carry, not just the academics. Work hours, ECs, research, and family responsibilities are also part of a "Load." Taking your coursework over a prolonged period of time and getting straight As, is far better than cramming it in and getting mediocre grades because you overextended yourself.

That said, taking such a low courseload means it could take you years to achieve your GPA improvement goal. But there's nothing wrong with that since med school isn't going to go anywhere. I honestly don't think anyone will question your "dedication" to your goal just because you get there slowly and carefully.

 

[alexrgross]

I applied to the UC consortium two years ago with a 3.11 GPA and was not accepted. Although, I did not have the science ECs you do I did have leadership experience and community based ECs. It seems like you already have some back-up plans if you dont get into the UC consortium (it is a very small program).

I have been @ the U Oregon post-bacc ever since and I find the education to be very good to excellent in quality.

 

[Idia]

Quick update.

I am happy to report that I have now received a few acceptances to the postbaccs.

1 postbacc in NorCal
1 postbacc in SoCal

One conditional acceptance at one of these schools.

I am wondering if it is wise to take the conditional accpetance without even having an MCAT score presently? I am satisfied that it is a CA Allopathic school which is more than I could have hoped for this time last year when I was in the trenches.

With the conditional acceptance, I will not have the option of applying to any other Med School if I satisfy all their requirements, then I MUST matriculate into their school.

I want to do research and possibly some electives abroad since my interests lie in infectious disease and Global health. I don't necessarily know that this school has a strong program for this area of study.

Also, I have not researched their med school so I know nothing about the residency match list and how well their students match to competitive residencies- I must add that I am almost sure that I won't be going into th ultra-competitive residencies - ortho surgery, derm, radiology or plastics. I am leaning towards Internal Medicine or Primary Care

Should I just bite the bullet and commit myself to this great offer, or should I run the risk of going through a regular postbacc then applying to schools next year just to see what else is out there in terms of offer whether or not this takes me out of CA.

How would you guys approach this situation, I have to make a decision within the next day or so.

 

[Catalystik]

Should I just bite the bullet and commit myself to this great offer, or should I run the risk of going through a regular postbacc then applying to schools next year just to see what else is out there in terms of offer whether or not this takes me out of CA.

I'd take the offer. If you fail to meet the stated expections, you still have the option to go through the stress and expense of a traditional application cycle.

 

[Tapepsi]

Absolutely take the offer it's impossible to get into CA MD schools unless you have stellar stats. And actually, it's extremely difficult to get into any MD school with your GPA so the fact that you can get into a CA one is an opportunity you shouldn't turn down.

Just out of curiousity which school has the conditional acceptance? I could provide info for you about it.

 

[Idia]

I can PM