Please do not shame students who match at terrible programs

[Reaganite]

Heres a start... Any job that keeps getting posted every few years as they churn through new grads and never make them partner

Job in Irvine?

I am looking into rad onc jobs in Irvine due to family reasons. There's no Irvine job postings on ASTRO website. Are there malignant employers in Irvine one should avoid? Searching through old messages on this forum, someone mentioned KSK? Thank you

forums.studentdoctor.net

To be honest, still trying to figure out the exact issue with that practice. Have heard mixed things lately...I hear salary is 350k in Irvine. Not bad at all. If partnership is the issue people need to understand that is not gonna happen. That practice is worth a ton, and I'm guessing even a minority share buy in would cost several million. Every hospital in the area is ready to buy owner out for very big $$.

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[Neuronix]

I hear salary is 350k in Irvine. Not bad at all.

MGMA median is 540k. If you're busting your ass for that 350k in a high col area, that tends to push people to go somewhere else.

 

[Reaganite]

MGMA median is 540k. If you're busting your ass for that 350k in a high col area, that tends to push people to go somewhere else.

MGMA data are useless in a market like So Cal, especially now. There are almost no openings, and if you're lucky enough to get one, you'll be looking at lower numbers with 0 upward mobility. Most of the academic places are starting high 200s, very low 300s with RVU incentives that Covid, intense competition, and hypofractionation have all made very difficult to meet. People will take a lot less to work in So Cal, yet they seem to avoid this "higher" paying position like the plague. Makes you wonder.

 

[RickyScott]

Academic places will not generally get rid of you from one day to the next. Employer does not have a good rep.

 

[medgator]

MGMA data are useless in a market like So Cal, especially now. There are almost no openings, and if you're lucky enough to get one, you'll be looking at lower numbers with 0 upward mobility. Most of the academic places are starting high 200s, very low 300s with RVU incentives that Covid, intense competition, and hypofractionation have all made very difficult to meet. People will take a lot less to work in So Cal, yet they seem to avoid this "higher" paying position like the plague. Makes you wonder.

Have heard personality/malignancy of head doc may be playing a role as well

 

[fiji128]

What is MGMA? :

10% tile 20% tile 25% tile
wRVUs 4,724 6,462 7,143
total comp $390,849 $451,244 $476,999
comp/RVUs $43.26 $48.27 $50.29

30% tile 40% tile 50% tile
wRVUs 7,887 8,672 9,704
total comp $498,102 $525,660 $543,464
comp/RVUs $52.51 $57.81 $61.99

60% tile 70% tile 75% tile
wRVUs 10,475 11,263 11,801
total comp $579,124 $614,493 $642,929
comp/RVUs $65.76 $71.92 $75.17

80% tile 90% tile
wRVUs 12,305 14,622
total comp $686,330 $875,752
comp/RVUs $79.41 $96.16

Keep in mind that MGMA is for private practice and not academics and >50% rad onc jobs are supposedly in the academic realm now. Not sure how realistic these compensation numbers are for new/recent graduates at this point.

 

[deleted941485]

Shame students all you want. It’s not going to change a single thing but if it makes you feel better have at it. I

I stopped teaching residents when they come out here to the satellite. Ofcourse they still send them despite me saying I am not interested inteaching them. I just laugh at them when’s they quote the literature with the same zeal a pastor quotes the Bible. Like that will do anything for them.

 

[deleted941485]

What is MGMA? :

10% tile 20% tile 25% tile
wRVUs 4,724 6,462 7,143
total comp $390,849 $451,244 $476,999
comp/RVUs $43.26 $48.27 $50.29

30% tile 40% tile 50% tile
wRVUs 7,887 8,672 9,704
total comp $498,102 $525,660 $543,464
comp/RVUs $52.51 $57.81 $61.99

60% tile 70% tile 75% tile
wRVUs 10,475 11,263 11,801
total comp $579,124 $614,493 $642,929
comp/RVUs $65.76 $71.92 $75.17

80% tile 90% tile
wRVUs 12,305 14,622
total comp $686,330 $875,752
comp/RVUs $79.41 $96.16

Keep in mind that MGMA is for private practice and not academics and >50% rad onc jobs are supposedly in the academic realm now. Not sure how realistic these compensation numbers are for new/recent graduates at this point.

My guess is that what hey aren’t getting for the service is probably about the same but the employer is pocketing what would normally go to the docs to subsidize their BS

 

[ramsesthenice]

What is MGMA? :

10% tile 20% tile 25% tile
wRVUs 4,724 6,462 7,143
total comp $390,849 $451,244 $476,999
comp/RVUs $43.26 $48.27 $50.29

30% tile 40% tile 50% tile
wRVUs 7,887 8,672 9,704
total comp $498,102 $525,660 $543,464
comp/RVUs $52.51 $57.81 $61.99

60% tile 70% tile 75% tile
wRVUs 10,475 11,263 11,801
total comp $579,124 $614,493 $642,929
comp/RVUs $65.76 $71.92 $75.17

80% tile 90% tile
wRVUs 12,305 14,622
total comp $686,330 $875,752
comp/RVUs $79.41 $96.16

Keep in mind that MGMA is for private practice and not academics and >50% rad onc jobs are supposedly in the academic realm now. Not sure how realistic these compensation numbers are for new/recent graduates at this point.

I would put the relevance of these numbers somewhere between an 8-track cassette and a floppy disk. I know of precisely 1 recent grade who has even approached these numbers right out of residency to live in the middle of no where in the south. I interviewed at one private center during my job search (near my family) that had a starting base of $480+ RVU bonusing. The pay was going to be good but those guys busted a$$ day in and day out.

I think a much more realistic starting salary for most grads is in the $300 range give or take a bit. Academic satellites can be on the lower end. We start our community folks at around $330 but I know where I trained is closer to $250.

The key word that gets overlooked is total compensation. I can't speak to many private centers but the added perks at academic centers can be pretty ridiculous. The university covers 100% of the premium to ensure my entire family and has a 2:1 match (10:5%) for our retirement plan. These are not small additions to the base salary and can make some of those numbers more competitive than they appear at first blush. It is very important to understand what any prospective employer is offering. $275 base could easily end up in the low-mid 3s all said and done. Or it could actually be in the high 200s. Pretty big difference...

I know its been mentioned a million times before but an absolutely key question is what is your ceiling. This is a small (and shrinking) field. Unless you really enjoy needless stress in your life, its pretty key to know that you have a potential future wherever you end up. If it is PP do people actually make partner or not? PP or academics if people keep leaving after a few years there is a reason for it and it is probably a mistake to assume that it will somehow be any different for you unless maybe its in your home town or something like that. Everyone has their own opinions but if it came down to it I would very gladly compromise some initial earnings to be in a stable position where I am treated well and have upward mobility.

 

[deleted969641]

What is MGMA? :

10% tile 20% tile 25% tile
wRVUs 4,724 6,462 7,143
total comp $390,849 $451,244 $476,999
comp/RVUs $43.26 $48.27 $50.29

30% tile 40% tile 50% tile
wRVUs 7,887 8,672 9,704
total comp $498,102 $525,660 $543,464
comp/RVUs $52.51 $57.81 $61.99

60% tile 70% tile 75% tile
wRVUs 10,475 11,263 11,801
total comp $579,124 $614,493 $642,929
comp/RVUs $65.76 $71.92 $75.17

80% tile 90% tile
wRVUs 12,305 14,622
total comp $686,330 $875,752
comp/RVUs $79.41 $96.16

Keep in mind that MGMA is for private practice and not academics and >50% rad onc jobs are supposedly in the academic realm now. Not sure how realistic these compensation numbers are for new/recent graduates at this point.

It's good to know this data.

And it furthers my argument that the Victoria, TX (and the like) job is a 900k job.
If anybody takes the Victoria job and agrees to their 450k salary, I will use my CME funds to buy a plane ticket and fly down there and kick you square in the nuts. I can't think of a better use for educational funds than to educate somebody that crap hospital systems in crap areas should not be allowed to steal > 50% of your professional collections.

Sadly, given enough time and the rapidly deteriorating state of the job market, some schmuck with family within a 10 hour driving radius who doesn't understand how rad oncs generate revenue will eventually agree to their salary. It will take years, but it will eventually fill. And they know this. Really sad.

When Victoria, TX, Marshfield, WI, and Poplar Bluff, MO tell you they can't pay you any more than 75th percentile MGMA or else they "will violate Stark Law," you should kindly tell them where to go and remind them that 25% of radiation oncologists must presently be breaking the law. For rural hospitals to tell you this as a guise to skim pro collections, you should take it as a personal insult. Yes, they really believe you are that STUPID. If you are going to be underpaid, then make it a conscious choice and do it in an area that doesn't suck where admin doesn't gaslight you.

 

[metallica81788]

If anybody takes the Victoria job and agrees to their 450k salary, I will use my CME funds to buy a plane ticket and fly down there and kick you square in the nuts.

Strong candidate for post of the year/decade

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Strong candidate for post of the year/decade

I can't really support this gendered post (nuts really). Mods may want to delete. /sarc?

 

[medgator]

I can't really support this gendered post (nuts really). Mods may want to delete. /sarc?

Ovaries, whatever

 

[deleted969641]

Editing my post: I googled the Victoria job again and found some interesting stuff.

First, heme/onc is advertising an 800k salary there: Permanent Hematology/Oncology Job in Victoria, Texas | ExactMD.com

Second, I may be wrong about this being a hospital employed position. It's a "new practice" that was hiring in 2019 and is hiring again. They've got a bunch of recent listings for staff like they are building a new center. Wonder if it's a churn-and-burn in lovely Victoria, TX. Regardless, I will stick with ripping on the perma-posted hospital employed job in Marshfield, WI.

 

[MidwestRO]

I agree with you about not shaming individual residents, but if someone absolutely needs to be in a specific location, they have made a horrible decision going for radonc. There certainly are some programs like Arkansas or West Virginia where there are zero legitimate reasons to attend.
for a resident who decides on Columbia- I get that not everyone can match at mskcc, but at least a 2nd tier program like NYU where you just have to be a us grad who passed boards on 1st try.

Do you know anything whatsoever about the programs at West Virginia or Arkansas? That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with.

 

[RickyScott]

Do you know anything whatsoever about the programs at West Virginia or Arkansas? That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with.

Know absolutely nothing other than they are new and unnecessary. Since jobs will be in such tight supply, it is not unreasonable that their grads will really struggle to find employment in 5 years.

 

[TheWallnerus]

Know absolutely nothing other than they are new and unnecessary. Since jobs will be in such tight supply, it is not unreasonable that their grads will really struggle to find employment in 5 years.

The only thing worse than being a recent grad and starting a career in rad onc right now would be being a grad of a program that no longer exists. There's a few. CA program, Med College of Georgia, others? Does rad onc have the greatest percentage of programs-that-existed-15y-ago-but-no-longer-do in all of a medicine? We're a teeny field so maybe so? That'd be a worry on top of all the worries RO already has. WVU and Arkansas and UT Memphis etc etc have non-zero risks of shutting down one day, just based on our history.

 

[medgator]

The only thing worse than being a recent grad and starting a career in rad onc right now would be being a grad of a program that no longer exists. There's a few. City of Hope, Med College of Georgia, others? Does rad onc have the greatest percentage of programs-that-existed-15y-ago-but-no-longer-do in all of a medicine? We're a teeny field so maybe so? That'd be a worry on top of all the worries RO already has. WVU and Arkansas and UT Memphis etc etc have non-zero risks of shutting down one day, just based on our history.

City of hope still exists afaik? And it's fairly recent compared to programs that existed earlier this century

 

[TheWallnerus]

City of hope still exists afaik? And it's fairly recent compared to programs that existed earlier this century

yes I was thinking of another CA program

 

[GapCalc]

CPMC?