Please help me choose

[drizzt3117]

Case allocates 4 months for their students to do research. I've got a ton of research done in med school (I'll publish 15-20 manuscripts when everything is said and done) but the biggest challenge for me is to find time to work on it. 4 months (or a year like Duke) is just amazing.

Case and CCF have thousands of faculty doing research and ~200 med students per class between their two programs. I think they have a combined total of over $300M in NIH grants, IIRC.

My small state school even has extensive research in ophtho. Finding research in your specialty isn't very hard assuming your school has a residency program.

You are right that having a residency there will make research easier. Once you have that, I would argue that a lesser-known school will give you more research opportunities. At my state school, few students want to do research (not a research powerhouse by any means), therefore those that want to do research have the pick of the litter. We literally have case reports and clinical research thrown at us if we are willing to write it up.

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[TexasPhysician]

Case allocates 4 months for their students to do research. I've got a ton of research done in med school (I'll publish 15-20 manuscripts when everything is said and done) but the biggest challenge for me is to find time to work on it. 4 months (or a year like Duke) is just amazing.

Case and CCF have thousands of faculty doing research and ~200 med students per class between their two programs. I think they have a combined total of over $300M in NIH grants, IIRC.

4-12 months for dedicated research would be nice, but I've seen more than 20 papers published by one student at my school in 4 years.

You can accomplish whatever you want at any US MD school.

 

[drizzt3117]

4-12 months for dedicated research would be nice, but I've seen more than 20 papers published by one student at my school in 4 years.

You can accomplish whatever you want at any US MD school.

That's nice, what's your point? Do you really think there's going to be more support for students doing research (both financially and timewise) somewhere that isn't a research powerhouse?

Not only is that counterintuitive but it's just not true in my experience. I have gotten incredible support for my research (I go to a top 15 school in NIH funding). I've gotten salary support even during the school year, tuition reimbursements, training grants, had my travel to present at 6 conferences funded this year (two of them international) including lots of money for incidentals, office space, etc. My friends at top schools have had similar support/experiences, but those at less research oriented schools have gotten "oh you want to do research? Why aren't you md/phd?" Ymmv <shrug>

 

[QofQuimica]

Love that "silly premed" tactic. It's lame and old. No one is bowing down. There are plenty of people willing to carry the debt to receive the education they want. The numbers speak for themselves in this regard. 1200 applicants to BU alone.

And fyi, I worked to pay my way through college. Have also taken out loans and paid the monthly installments. Not your typical "pre-med," Not everyone is the same so please save your generalizations and "know it all" attitude to yourself.

There are numerous threads discussing this issue. And the reality is not everyone agrees. I for one am willing to pay more for the education I want. I also am comfortable carrying a larger debt load because I have had another career and understand finances.

Again, a difference of 50grand while large, is worth going to the medical school that you will be happier at ---> more successful in ---> etc and the list goes on.

I never called you a silly premed, and I'm not sure why you interpreted my post as a personal attack against you. My point is not that your opinion is silly, merely that you are liable to change it as you get further along in the process. Many people do, including some of my classmates who had your philosophy at one point, but feel very differently now that their loans will be coming due within the next several months. It concerns me to see people throwing caution to the wind concerning how much money they borrow in med school, because first, you have no idea how happy/unhappy you will be at a particular school based on the two or three days you spent interviewing/second looking there, and second, most med students go through quite a lot of low points during med school where they're not very happy, regardless of how much they love their school.

The fact that other people make financial decisions they may regret later does not mean that it's a good idea for the OP to follow suit without serious consideration of the alternatives, seeing as s/he has the option to spend less money. It will not be possible for most med students to work their way through med school, and there are limited scholarships awarded compared to the availability of scholarships at the college level. In nearly all cases, the kind of loans people take out to go to college are a drop in the bucket compared to the kind of loans some people have to take out to go to medical school. It's on the scale of buying a pretty darn nice house, only you don't get any house out of it at the end.

There are some other post-med school considerations that are also very important. For example, many people do not know what specialty they want to go into before they get to med school, and it's entirely possible that a student will decide they want to do a lower-paying specialty like family med, peds, or psych. That's difficult to do if you have a ton of debt. Unfortunately, there are people who end up choosing a different specialty than what they most love based on financial considerations. But even more broadly, at some point, most people want to stop living like a student and start living their American dream. That's a lot harder to do if you're carrying six figure loans, especially if you're trying to balance other major expenses like a mortgage and a family.

I have no vested interest in convincing you to do something you don't want to do, although I *would* like to encourage everyone who is currently deciding among multiple schools to seriously think about these issues. Regardless of how you feel about my advice, I sincerely hope that you do have the best possible experience in medical school, and that your debt burden does not overly affect your lifestyle in the future.

 

[drizzt3117]

Btw Miami only gives you 6 weeks between m1 and m2 year, so it's hard to do some summer research programs that are at other institutions (or any meaningful summer research besides a small clinical research project) so you might want to keep that in mind.

Looking at how different schools have their scheduling for all four years is one of the more important things you should do when deciding IMO, bc this is going to affect your life more than most factors.

Also, isn't the deadline for deciding to go to case next friday?

 

[alibai3ah]

Pick the school that is giving you the most money. That is the first rule.

If money does not matter, then pick Case. The other three are all comparable. Case has great clinics + research.

Case > GWU = BU > Miami

I disagree with this. BU is just as good as Case (without the shi**y location). Boston >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cleveland (it's not even funny).

I would pick BU over your other choices in a heartbeat

 

[canada1311]

Btw Miami only gives you 6 weeks between m1 and m2 year, so it's hard to do some summer research programs that are at other institutions (or any meaningful summer research besides a small clinical research project) so you might want to keep that in mind.

Looking at how different schools have their scheduling for all four years is one of the more important things you should do when deciding IMO, bc this is going to affect your life more than most factors.

Also, isn't the deadline for deciding to go to case next friday?

Out of curiosity, what kind of research are you working on that you could be a part of 15-20 manuscripts in 4 months? And what is your role in these projects?

I'm just curious...I'm finishing up a clinical research-based Master's, and it's unheard of for anyone to produce that many manuscripts after a PhD. I've heard much the same for those in basic science.

 

[drizzt3117]

Out of curiosity, what kind of research are you working on that you could be a part of 15-20 manuscripts in 4 months? And what is your role in these projects?

that's over 4 years, not 4 months. I don't go to Case. Also, I think even if you were writing full time it'd be hard to write that many papers in that amount of time, haha.

I am working in translational research in radiology/medical physics. I am working on three independent studies with research scans done probably twice a week on patients, as well as assisting with a few other projects. I'll be first author on 70% of the manuscripts.

 

[bookfreak89]

Love that "silly premed" tactic. It's lame and old. No one is bowing down. There are plenty of people willing to carry the debt to receive the education they want. The numbers speak for themselves in this regard. 1200 applicants to BU alone.

And fyi, I worked to pay my way through college. Have also taken out loans and paid the monthly installments. Not your typical "pre-med," Not everyone is the same so please save your generalizations and "know it all" attitude to yourself.

There are numerous threads discussing this issue. And the reality is not everyone agrees. I for one am willing to pay more for the education I want. I also am comfortable carrying a larger debt load because I have had another career and understand finances.

Again, a difference of 50grand while large, is worth going to the medical school that you will be happier at ---> more successful in ---> etc and the list goes on.

Right. The defensive "I am not your typical premed/I have had loans/I work/etc." mantra doesn't mean anything either. In this argument, the only thing that matters is this: Have you ever had a $50,000 (or more) loan? That is all. If you have, disregard my post. If you haven't, stop getting unnecessarily defensive over the word, "premed".

If you want to have that burden then go ahead, otherwise the OP needs to weigh the costs and benefits of potentially paying at least $50,000 more for his/her education. OP, you will not be paying $50,000 more, more than likely it will be much higher than that because of interest probably 58,000 or 60,000. My figures are probably off, but that is the general idea. Keep this in mind.

Edit: How in the world can you correlate the # of applications a school receives and the # of people who are willing to incur debt at said school? It doesn't matter that BU receives 12,000 applications. Drexel receives over 10,000 applications as well. Does that mean that the people who attend Drexel would like incur more debt? Some people may be willing to take on the debt, other will not. It is the same at every school.

 

[TexasPhysician]

That's nice, what's your point? Do you really think there's going to be more support for students doing research (both financially and timewise) somewhere that isn't a research powerhouse?

Not only is that counterintuitive but it's just not true in my experience. I have gotten incredible support for my research (I go to a top 15 school in NIH funding). I've gotten salary support even during the school year, tuition reimbursements, training grants, had my travel to present at 6 conferences funded this year (two of them international) including lots of money for incidentals, office space, etc. My friends at top schools have had similar support/experiences, but those at less research oriented schools have gotten "oh you want to do research? Why aren't you md/phd?" Ymmv <shrug>

My point is you don't need to go to a top research school to get plenty of research done. I've never gotten "you should do a md/phd". Just because one of your friends had a tough time, doesn't mean everyone does. A friend of mine has over 20 papers as first author, conferences paid for, etc in his 4 years. I don't think he got tuition reimbursements, but our tuition is really cheap (state school). He ended up matching neurosurgery at a top program.

Since few people do research at my school, I emailed 3 people (based on my interests) and I've been put on projects through all of them. It is EASY to do research here. Grants - no problem.

 

[canada1311]

My point is you don't need to go to a top research school to get plenty of research done. I've never gotten "you should do a md/phd". Just because one of your friends had a tough time, doesn't mean everyone does. A friend of mine has over 20 papers as first author, conferences paid for, etc in his 4 years. I don't think he got tuition reimbursements, but our tuition is really cheap (state school). He ended up matching neurosurgery at a top program.

Since few people do research at my school, I emailed 3 people (based on my interests) and I've been put on projects through all of them. It is EASY to do research here. Grants - no problem.

Hehe, I feel as thought this thread has been sidetracked away from support for a decision.

To the OP, here's my advice of a few important factors in my decision, in no apparent order.

1) Cost - I agree with one of the posters that a larger debt load, down the road, can make a large impact on your life. Though perhaps there are other factors you find more important, Cost should be a factor in your decision, to some extent.

2) Location - Some don't find this a big deal, and are happy to go wherever they get in. Maybe you have more family or friends near a certain school? Personally, I really wanted to be in a large urban center, so that factored into my decision. Maybe you just like certain cities (e.g. Boston, Miami) more than others (e.g Cleveland). I interviewed at Case, and while Cleveland was not as bad as its reputation, it's nothing compared to Boston. However, of course, there are other factors, as I'm listing.

3) Fit - This can include how you fit in with a school's curriculum, focus, mission, clinical areas of expertise, student body, schedule, etc. You might have made some conclusions on these factors from your interview days, and second looks should help too. I don't quite accept QofQuimica's assertion that one cannot make conclusions based on interview days and second look - s/he has a point that those conclusions may not completely representative of a school, but still. A school intentionally presents itself in a certain, polished way during those days, and if what you perceive of that school doesn't jive well with you (or, alternatively, you love it), then that may play a role in your decision.

4) Research - Perhaps this falls in with "fit" a bit, but if you are interested in pursuing research, you may want to choose a school where opportunities abound. There seems to be some debate as to whether research-renowned institutions like Case are superior than state schools - I certainly can't answer that, seeing as how as a Canadian, I don't have a US "state school." However, at Case, there are many research opportunities and, from what I gathered at my interview there, it is easy to get involved in projects.

5) Prestige - This factor may be complete BS, or key in your decision, depending on your point of view. I'd say all the schools you were accepted at are prestigious, maybe some a little more than others. You couldn't go wrong wherever you end up, to be sure.

Again, congratulations on your enviable dilemma. Let us know where you decide to go - this thread seems to have quite the following.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Have you ever had a $50,000 (or more) loan? That is all. If you have, disregard my post.

Since I have, we can disregard your post. As has been stated by someone other then myself, there are people comfortable carrying the debt load and others who are not. It is a matter of personality and maturity.

I for one would be more comfortable carrying an extra, 50-150 if it meant I was happier/comfortable/excited/appreciative etc etc of the education I will be receiving. I believe that money is not everything, not for me anyway and not for many of the doctors/residents/etc that I work with who have also "carefully" considered and weighed the pros and cons of paying extra for the education they want. No one is saying the OP should through caution to the wind. Please read more carefully. I have carried a large debt load already, have worked a full time job for years. And as someone who has experienced that I am going to provide my opinion: specifically that the cost of a medical education is going to be great wherever you go and that 50 even 100 extra can not replace being where you believe you should be to get or receive your education. Let me say this now before people get it twisted again, I am not inferring that the OP can not do this at a cheaper school. I am not even inferring that he wouldn't be successful if he went to a medical school in Caribbean. So please read the argument.

Happier/excited/feeling of belonging/appreciation for the education you are getting/being in an aspiring place-----> are advantageous to ----> greater success, interpersonal development, etc etc fill in the blank.

And last but not least. If you are satisfied with your education the debt load will be easier to carry. As has been my own experience.

Best of luck OP.

 

[drizzt3117]

My point is you don't need to go to a top research school to get plenty of research done. I've never gotten "you should do a md/phd". Just because one of your friends had a tough time, doesn't mean everyone does. A friend of mine has over 20 papers as first author, conferences paid for, etc in his 4 years. I don't think he got tuition reimbursements, but our tuition is really cheap (state school). He ended up matching neurosurgery at a top program.

Since few people do research at my school, I emailed 3 people (based on my interests) and I've been put on projects through all of them. It is EASY to do research here. Grants - no problem.

Good for your friend. Obviously it's not IMPOSSIBLE to do research at a less research oriented school, but it's certainly not easier.

Our school had 101 out of 160 people do funded summer research projects this past summer, with $6000 in funding per student. Everyone who submitted a proposal was accepted. Students presented their research at a regional forum the school held specifically for students to present at. The research deans send out emails with faculty who have research projects made for students. All of the projects are designed so students will be able to publish. Schools with a vested interest in their students doing research make it easier for them to do it, that would seem obvious.

 

[dtothey]

I'm concerned about getting into a competitive residency, and while none of the match lists are poor, Case's is the best. Is this simply because the students they accept are of a higher caliber or does coming from Case give one an advantage in the match? Does Case prepare students for the boards better than OSU does? As far as rankings go, Case and OSU are about the same, but Case students seem to consistently match above those at OSU.

 

[bookfreak89]

Since I have, we can disregard your post. As has been stated by someone other then myself, there are people comfortable carrying the debt load and others who are not. It is a matter of personality and maturity.

I for one would be more comfortable carrying an extra, 50-150 if it meant I was happier/comfortable/excited/appreciative etc etc of the education I will be receiving. I believe that money is not everything, not for me anyway and not for many of the doctors/residents/etc that I work with who have also "carefully" considered and weighed the pros and cons of paying extra for the education they want. No one is saying the OP should through caution to the wind. Please read more carefully. I have carried a large debt load already, have worked a full time job for years. And as someone who has experienced that I am going to provide my opinion: specifically that the cost of a medical education is going to be great wherever you go and that 50 even 100 extra can not replace being where you believe you should be to get or receive your education. Let me say this now before people get it twisted again, I am not inferring that the OP can not do this at a cheaper school. I am not even inferring that he wouldn't be successful if he went to a medical school in Caribbean. So please read the argument.

Happier/excited/feeling of belonging/appreciation for the education you are getting/being in an aspiring place-----> are advantageous to ----> greater success, interpersonal development, etc etc fill in the blank.

And last but not least. If you are satisfied with your education the debt load will be easier to carry. As has been my own experience.

Best of luck OP.

Just a couple of nuances:
-Are you implying that more mature = more willing to incur more debt?
-You didn't address my edit.

Other than that, your post was fair enough. Even though I don't entirely agree, I respect your opinion.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm concerned about getting into a competitive residency, and while none of the match lists are poor, Case's is the best. Is this simply because the students they accept are of a higher caliber or does coming from Case give one an advantage in the match? Does Case prepare students for the boards better than OSU does? As far as rankings go, Case and OSU are about the same, but Case students seem to consistently match above those at OSU.

Using match lists to compare schools (especially ones with as similar reputations as those two) is generally an exercise in futility. Neither OSU nor Case will limit you as far as where as you'll be able to match. For an example, my brother is a pgy-3 at a top 5 program in a competitive surgical specialty (one of the harvard programs) and one of the residents in his class is from OSU. As OSU is the state school for Ohio, you're going to see more people match in the state and surrounding region simply because a larger portion of the people are from the state and want to stay there. It's a preference thing, not bc their choices were limited.

 

[vc7777]

I'm concerned about getting into a competitive residency, and while none of the match lists are poor, Case's is the best. Is this simply because the students they accept are of a higher caliber or does coming from Case give one an advantage in the match? Does Case prepare students for the boards better than OSU does? As far as rankings go, Case and OSU are about the same, but Case students seem to consistently match above those at OSU.

OP, congrats on your success!

From what I understand, the more competitive a particular residency program is, the more of a competitive 'edge' published research becomes. I think it is fair to assume a very slight advantage in a particular school's match results can be attributed to partially a higher level of research by the student body en masse. But remember, your personal mileage WILL vary.

To throw my hat into the ring, I was accepted to both Case Western's University Program and OSU well before I was accepted to Cleveland Clinic or was named a Dean Scholar at OSU (both full-tuition scholarships). I was in a similar position a few months back. They were my top choices - at that time.

At the end of the day, at that point in time I was prepared to accept OSU over Case. If costs was not a factor, I would have chosen Case. It was a better fit for me personally. However, I live in the real world, and was prepared to select OSU in spite of this slight preference for Case. And I expected to be happy there and have no regrets. Period.

I agree with the current medical students for the most part on the financial discussion that is on-going. I might add that I am also not your traditional pre-med, have incurred a heck of a lot more debt than $50k. And I am not sure that it gives me credibility. I am personally not comfortable with it. I can only speak for myself, but I think it was a sign of my immaturity at the time. This is NOT free money. It WILL affect some aspect of your life down the line. I think Q and Tex want to make sure that you realize this, that's all.

If I were you, I would try to seek out a professional financial planner and discuss the pros and cons after you receive your award letters from all of the programs. The salaries for residency programs are generally similar and she may be able to work up a few scenarios to give you a better idea of what sort of lifestyle you may lead choosing the different schools, say 5 or 10 years down the line.

When it is all said and done, I think they are all fine programs, and I wish you the best of luck in your decision!

 

[TexasPhysician]

I'm concerned about getting into a competitive residency, and while none of the match lists are poor, Case's is the best. Is this simply because the students they accept are of a higher caliber or does coming from Case give one an advantage in the match? Does Case prepare students for the boards better than OSU does? As far as rankings go, Case and OSU are about the same, but Case students seem to consistently match above those at OSU.

As a pre-med it is hard to determine even what a competitive residency is. If you think all top 25 medical schools have the top residencies, you are wrong.

2nd Case's probably will have bigger "names" on it compared to others because they draw more students interested in academics + draw from a larger region. You can't compare this match list to one from Texas A&M for example. No matter how stellar most A&M students are, most want to stay in TX. Similar to my school where my roommate turned down interviews from Harvard, Hopkins, and Penn. He thought it might be fun to check out those schools originally, but realized he wanted nothing more than to do residency in TX.

I'm not positive on Miami's stats, but I bet they draw a BIG Fl majority who want to stay in the south.

 

[pumpkin patch]

Hehe, I feel as thought this thread has been sidetracked away from support for a decision.

To the OP, here's my advice of a few important factors in my decision, in no apparent order.

1) Cost - I agree with one of the posters that a larger debt load, down the road, can make a large impact on your life. Though perhaps there are other factors you find more important, Cost should be a factor in your decision, to some extent.

2) Location - Some don't find this a big deal, and are happy to go wherever they get in. Maybe you have more family or friends near a certain school? Personally, I really wanted to be in a large urban center, so that factored into my decision. Maybe you just like certain cities (e.g. Boston, Miami) more than others (e.g Cleveland). I interviewed at Case, and while Cleveland was not as bad as its reputation, it's nothing compared to Boston. However, of course, there are other factors, as I'm listing.

3) Fit - This can include how you fit in with a school's curriculum, focus, mission, clinical areas of expertise, student body, schedule, etc. You might have made some conclusions on these factors from your interview days, and second looks should help too. I don't quite accept QofQuimica's assertion that one cannot make conclusions based on interview days and second look - s/he has a point that those conclusions may not completely representative of a school, but still. A school intentionally presents itself in a certain, polished way during those days, and if what you perceive of that school doesn't jive well with you (or, alternatively, you love it), then that may play a role in your decision.

4) Research - Perhaps this falls in with "fit" a bit, but if you are interested in pursuing research, you may want to choose a school where opportunities abound. There seems to be some debate as to whether research-renowned institutions like Case are superior than state schools - I certainly can't answer that, seeing as how as a Canadian, I don't have a US "state school." However, at Case, there are many research opportunities and, from what I gathered at my interview there, it is easy to get involved in projects.

5) Prestige - This factor may be complete BS, or key in your decision, depending on your point of view. I'd say all the schools you were accepted at are prestigious, maybe some a little more than others. You couldn't go wrong wherever you end up, to be sure.

Again, congratulations on your enviable dilemma. Let us know where you decide to go - this thread seems to have quite the following.

Good advice! =]

During one of my interview days, an MS-IV spoke to us about life as a med student and encouraged us to go with our gut feeling when picking schools. Cost/location/fit/etc... are all important to consider, but it is most important that you are comfortable at your school and like your classmates. You can be successful and happy wherever you go; it's what you make of your experience that matters, and I think comfort goes a long way in facilitating that.