Please help!! St George London or try for US school????

[kristam92]

Hello, my name is Krista and I'm a pre-medical student at University of Wisconsin Stevens Point. I am writing this in hopes that fellow pre-med students will be able to help me with a major decision I am faced with...

Much like everyone else on this forum, I REALLY want to be an MD. Unfortunately, I had a really rough first two years of school. As a result, I anticipate that I will graduate with a 3.2 GPA (I'm graduating next spring). I am a biology major and do well in bio classes. However, I'm terrible at chemistry. I have just barely gotten by in my inorganic chem classes with C letter grades. I do have strong extra-curriculars and letters of recommendation. I have not taken the MCAT yet, but given my poor status in chemistry I doubt I wills score in the 30s. All the practice exams I have done have put me around a 27. Next year, I will have to take my Organic chemistry sequence.

I've done a lot of research on the St. George University of London international program. The program awards you a MBBS (UK equivalent to an MD) in four years. The first two years are spent studying in London and the last two are spent doing clinical rotations in Washington DC and preparing for the USMLE. I've contacted the school as well as looked into accreditation and such and it seems to be a really good program for somebody in my position. Admissions into this program require that you have at least a 3.0 GPA, a bachelors of science, and an MCAT score of 24. As long as you meet those minimum requirements, you are automatically granted an interview. From that point on, acceptance is granted based on the interview, your personal statement, and letters of recommendation. After speaking to the advisors at the school, I feel like I have a pretty good shot at getting accepted into this program.

My dilemma is this...

Does it look like I have a chance at getting accepted into a U.S school? Should I take advantage of this SGUL program and apply this fall? Or should I wait and see if I can get accepted into a state school?

If I apply for a US school, I will not be able to apply until next fall because I have yet to take my organic chemistry sequence. If I apply for the SGUL program and get accepted, I don't have to take organic chem and instead can take more higher level biology classes. If I do this, I have a chance at graduating with a higher GPA. If I take organic chemistry, I risk ruining my GPA even more. I fear that if organic chem brings my GPA any lower, I wont even get accepted into a graduate school of any kind..

I understand that a US school is always a better option than going over seas, but what would you do in my position? I really want to be an MD. If I don't, I have no idea what I would do instead.. Nothing else interests me.. Although it is a very important medical profession, I am not interested in DO either..

Please help!

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[cookiemonsters]

If you are white/Asian, your chances for a US MD acceptance are ~20% with ha a 3.2 and 27.

If you are guaranteed an acceptance at the London program, it might be worth your while to consider it. SDN gives FMG's a bad rep, but assuming you do much better with classes in medical school, you have a decent chance to come back to the US if you're not too picky when residency time comes. If you do go to a foreign medical school and still do badly there, you might have an unhappy ending.

edit: As others have said, US DO > foreign anything

 

[juliuspepperwood]

Take OChem. Study hard, get a tutor, whatever you need. It's actually very different from inorganic chem so you might not have the same problems in OChem as you did in inorganic.

Do a post-bacc/SMP if you are concerned about your GPA.

Don't go to a different country.

 

[WolfofSDN]

Your gpa is pretty low, you'd have to kill the MCAT to get accepted into lower tier and mid tier US allo schools. What are the reasons for your poor academic performance? Also, have you considered DO schools? Your Gpa would still be at the lower end, but still DOABLE

 

[kristam92]

Thank you for the input. My mother has been battling health issues and I had a really hard time balancing school and helping out at home my first two years of school.. There is certainly an upward trend though. This year I have done very well except in chemistry. I want to shine my last year of undergrad and end my bachelors on a really high note. I'm just worried that I won't be able to do that if I take organic chem since that seems to be a very difficult subject for me. DO doesn't really interest me, although I will look into it further since I'm in no position to be picky. I noticed that certain schools such as Rush, South Caronlina U, Virginia U, and Minnesota U don't have specific pre-med requirements. However, I'm sure my stats are far too low for these schools as well.

What are the main reasons for avoiding the London program? Is it really that hard to get a residency after graduation? I'm interested in emergency medicine and trauma surgery.

 

[kittykattat]

Hey Krista,

I grew up in Wisconsin and have had pre-med friends that went to UWSP and unfortunately what I've heard a lot is that coming from SP which is a small school that isnt extremely competitive (earning grades wise) you have to have above avg. stats just to have an avg. chance of gaining a US MD acceptance because most med schools (besides the two in Wisconsin) havnt heard of SP or been able to see a track record of strong med students coming out of SP (simply because it doesnt produce many pre-meds), and the WI schools know that SP is less competitive than other schools like Madison. With your stats I would say the chance of you getting into US MD would be extremely low unless you do an SMP/Postbac AND get your MCAT up to 30 or higher. However, I wouldnt recommend an international degree either, because it can be hard to obtain a residency spot in the US (I am assuming you want to practice here).

What I would recommend are DO programs. Have you looked into these at all? They allow you to retake classes to replace poor grades (you could retake any poor grades in classes you think you could do better in a second time or at a diff school) which could bring your gpa up, and a 27 MCAT would be okay for many programs.

I am also interested in EM and trauma surgery 🙂
Feel free to PM if you have questions about the WI med schools or anything!

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Two questions

1) Why doesn't a DO interest you? It is literally almost exactly the same training, practice privileges, even now residencies as an MD...really something to more strongly consider, because most people don't want to be an "MD" they want to be a physician, which you are with a DO.

2) I may have misunderstood, but if that program awards an MBBS, you won't have an MD anyway, you'll have an MBBS, which I can gaurantee will be less well known in the US than an MD or a DO.

Not hugely knowledgable about where your stats would make you competitive, but just somethings to think about. Good luck!

 

[kristam92]

Hey Krista,

I grew up in Wisconsin and have had pre-med friends that went to UWSP and unfortunately what I've heard a lot is that coming from SP which is a small school that isnt extremely competitive (earning grades wise) you have to have above avg. stats just to have an avg. chance of gaining a US MD acceptance because most med schools (besides the two in Wisconsin) havnt heard of SP or been able to see a track record of strong med students coming out of SP (simply because it doesnt produce many pre-meds), and the WI schools know that SP is less competitive than other schools like Madison. With your stats I would say the chance of you getting into US MD would be extremely low unless you do an SMP/Postbac AND get your MCAT up to 30 or higher. However, I wouldnt recommend an international degree either, because it can be hard to obtain a residency spot in the US (I am assuming you want to practice here).

What I would recommend are DO programs. Have you looked into these at all? They allow you to retake classes to replace poor grades (you could retake any poor grades in classes you think you could do better in a second time or at a diff school) which could bring your gpa up, and a 27 MCAT would be okay for many programs.

I am also interested in EM and trauma surgery 🙂
Feel free to PM if you have questions about the WI med schools or anything!

Thank you so much for the reply. In the last hour I have looked into DO programs and I must admit, I never realized that they are practically the same as an MD. :\ I'm really happy that you guys cleared that up for me. I never thought about how UWSP might rank on an application either. This is a really good point that of course UWSP advisers don't mention. lol

seeinghowitgoes, I understand what you're trying to get at. If I went to the London school, I would not have an MD. I would have a MBBS instead. I guess I was just under the impression that what I wanted to do required an MD or international equivalent. I did not realize that I could achieve my career goals with a DO. I will definitely look into this further. 🙂

Kittykattat, thank you for the advice. I will certainly contact you if I have any more questions! If I may ask, where in Wisconsin did you grow up? Are you pursuing DO or MD?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Two questions

1) Why doesn't a DO interest you? It is literally almost exactly the same training, practice privileges, even now residencies as an MD...really something to more strongly consider, because most people don't want to be an "MD" they want to be a physician, which you are with a DO.

2) I may have misunderstood, but if that program awards an MBBS, you won't have an MD anyway, you'll have an MBBS, which I can gaurantee will be less well known in the US than an MD or a DO.

Not hugely knowledgable about where your stats would make you competitive, but just somethings to think about. Good luck!

MBBS graduates are allowed to use the MD in the US.

 

[kittykattat]

Thank you so much for the reply. In the last hour I have looked into DO programs and I must admit, I never realized that they are practically the same as an MD. :\ I'm really happy that you guys cleared that up for me. I never thought about how UWSP might rank on an application either. This is a really good point that of course UWSP advisers don't mention. lol

seeinghowitgoes, I understand what you're trying to get at. If I went to the London school, I would not have an MD. I would have a MBBS instead. I guess I was just under the impression that what I wanted to do required an MD or international equivalent. I did not realize that I could achieve my career goals with a DO. I will definitely look into this further. 🙂

Kittykat, thank you for the advice. I will certainly contact you if I have any more questions! If I may ask, where in Wisconsin did you grow up? Are you pursuing DO or MD?

Dont want to reveal my not-so-secret identity any more than I already have haha. will PM you 🙂

 

[alpinism]

@kittykattat gave great advice.

Just to add on:

Unfortunately with all the new MD and DO schools opening up, the opportunities for foreign medical students to get residency spots here is decreasing every year. By the time you graduate, it might be next to impossible to get a residency unless you have very high board scores and don't mind doing a family medicine residency at a rural community hospital. EM and General (trauma) Surgery would likely be off the table.

If you want MD, you'll need to do really well in the rest of your ugrad classes then do either a post-bacc or SMP. For the MCAT you'll probably need a 30+ unless you have great ECs. I'd suggest looking at the study plans posted on the SDN MCAT subform and do tons of practice problems.

As already mentioned, DO would be a good option and would save you the time/money of trying to raise your GPA. With the exception of a few hrs of OMM every week, their curriculum is exactly the same as MD students. You would also have no problem getting into a solid MD residency (EM, General Surgery, etc) provided you passed all your classes and did well on the boards.

OChem sucks, but its a lot different than inorganic. Study a few hrs every day, take a light course load that semester, and get a tutor if you need help.

Good luck.
(Hope you guys are enjoying the warm weather)

 

[petyr_baelish]

If this school does not allow you to compete for UK internships, that's a huge red flag. You could end up in limbo with no residency. It's not worth the risk, the debt or the soul crushing realization that despite hard work, you have no means of working as a physician or much else without profound luck.

 

[Euxox]

Just to clarify, are we talking about the "real" St. George of London or St. George of London at Nicosia?

St. George of London is a great medical school, but I highly, highly doubt that they would admit you with a 3.2 GPA. Their mission is to train British physicians first and foremost and they take very few international students as a result. To get in as an American citizen, you will need to be the absolute best of the best. A 3.2/27 doesn't even come close.

The Nicosia campus, the one which actively recruits American students and is more likely to accept someone with a 3.2/27, is just a Mediterranean clone of XYZ Caribbean school. If you want to go to St. George of London at Nicosia, you can save four years by just throwing $250,000 in the trash. It will get you the same end result.

I agree with everyone else who has posted here. If you plan on practicing in the US, go to a US school. If you plan on practicing in the UK, go to St. George of London or another UK school. Do NOT under any circumstances go to St. George of London at Nicosia.

MBBS graduates are allowed to use the MD in the US.

Yes, but they still have to get board certification by completing a US residency, and the FMG/IMG match rate is currently about 50% and is poised for a sharp drop.

 

[pyrrion89]

Krista,

I am really sorry to hear about how your earlier living situation prevented you from performing at your fullest in your first 2 years of college. It must be tough getting practice test scores that are below what you want.

But I think you need to be realistic. I really think you should seriously consider DO schools. You don't want to gamble on your future. What if you can't practice medicine in America? What matters is what you do and where you do it, not what letters come after your name. The options are:

(1) Do I want a relatively guaranteed job as physician working in America?
(2) Do I want a not guaranteed job as physician working in America?

No matter what you choose to do, I wish you all the best.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Although it is a very important medical profession, I am not interested in DO either..

This statement makes little sense. They're not different professions, just different degrees.

I'd do a lot more research about the DO degree before leaving the US for medical education.

 

[MedWonk]

Although it is a very important medical profession, I am not interested in DO either..

Please help!

Any specific reason you would eschew graduating from a US school to attend a foreign school that leaves you at high risk of not matching?

 

[terp720]

This statement makes little sense. They're not different professions, just different degrees.

I'd do a lot more research about the DO degree before leaving the US for medical education.

Any specific reason you would eschew graduating from a US school to attend a foreign school that leaves you at high risk of not matching?

if you read her other posts..

Thank you so much for the reply. In the last hour I have looked into DO programs and I must admit, I never realized that they are practically the same as an MD. :\ I'm really happy that you guys cleared that up for me. I never thought about how UWSP might rank on an application either. This is a really good point that of course UWSP advisers don't mention.

 

[MedWonk]

if you read her other posts..

I don't read. I just feel and smash my keyboard. Such is my pitiful existence of ethereal pleasures. Also beer.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

@kristam92

Here's something else to read: hhttps://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/portals/0/PDFS/Nasca-Community/SingleAccreditationRelease2-26.pdf

 

[Goro]

Your numbers right now make you uncompetitive for MD schools. A <30 MCAT will only seal your fate.

Since you're keen on MD only, then a SMP is suggested. You need to prove to AdComs you can do well in medical school. I don't know how you'll fare as an IMG. They tend not to do well in finding residencies, and this will only get worse in the future.

 

[MedWonk]

I don't read. I just feel and smash my keyboard. Such is my pitiful existence of ethereal pleasures. Also beer.

Holy drunk post, Batman!

 

[kristam92]

Thank you again for all the replies. As I stated before, I had no idea that DO would allow me to pursue my career goals and that it is practically the same as MD. I'm really happy to hear that. 🙂 I'm looking into DO school and will be applying this falls.

Just clear it up though, I was not talking about St George University in Nicosia. This is the actual Saint George University in London. It is through the "INTO" program. It entails two years in London and two years doing clinical rotations in the U.S (They have partnered with teaching hospitals all over the east coast as well as some close to my home such as Chicago. I'm not sure which ones specifically). St. George London is a very good UK school but this program is very new. The first admitted students will not graduate until next year so that is why they are so lenient on GPA/MCAT scores. Even though they have approval to practice in 48 states and bring you through the process of the USMLE throughout your 3rd and 4th year, being that it is foreign and new I think it would be a risk. They do allow graduates to compete for residencies in the UK, but the post grad process is a lot different there and a UK residency would be useless if I wanted to practice in the U.S. I'm think it's best to avoid it and go DO instead.

Thank you once again!

 

[kristam92]

http://www.intohigher.com/uk/en-gb/our-centres/into-st-georges-university-of-london.aspx

This is the link to the program I was referring to in case anybody wanted to look it over.